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Khazar Empire, Illuminati And New World Order, video

Quest
post Jan 25 2009, 02:16 AM
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Khazar Empire, Illuminati and New World Order

http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2009/...ew-world-order/

QUOTE
In the book The Thirteenth Tribe, Ashkenazi Jew Arthur Koestler documented the history :

This book traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in A.D. 740 converted to Judaism. Khazaria, a conglomerate of Aryan Turkish tribes, was finally wiped out by the forces of Genghis Han, but evidence indicates that the Khazars themselves migrated to Poland and formed the craddle of Western (Ashkenazim) Jewry…

The Khazars’ sway extended from the Black sea to the Caspian, from the Caucasus to the Volga, and they were instrumental in stopping the Muslim onslaught against Byzantium, the eastern jaw of the gigantic pincer movement that in the West swept across northern Africa and into Spain.

Thereafter the Khazars found themselves in a precarious position between the two major world powers: the Eastern Roman Empire in Byzantium and the triumphant followers of Mohammed. As Arthur Koestler points out, the Khazars were the Third World of their day, and they chose a surprising method of resisting both the Western pressure to become Christian and the Eastern to adopt Islam. Rejecting both, they converted to Judaism.

The second part of Mr. Koestler’s book deals with the Khazar migration to Polish and Lithuanian territories, caused by the Mongol onslaught, and their impact on the racial composition and social heritage of modern Jewry. He produces a large body of meticulously detailed research in support of a theory that sounds all the more convincing for the restraint with which it is advanced.

Mr. Koestler concludes: “The evidence presented in the previous chapters adds up to a strong case in favour of those modern historians - whether Austrian, Israeli or Polish - who, independently from each other, have argued that the bulk of modern Jewry is not of Palestinian, but of Caucasian origin. The mainstream of Jewish migrations did not flow from the Mediterranean across France and Germany to the east and then back again. The stream moved in a consistently westerly direction, from the Caucasus through the Ukraine into Poland and thence into Central Europe. When that unprecedented mass settlement in Poland came into being, there were simply not enough Jews around in the west to account for it, while in the east a whole nation was on the move to new frontiers” ( page 179, page 180).

“The Jews of our times fall into two main divisions: Sephardim and Ashkenazim. The Sephardim are descendants of the Jews who since antiquity had lived in Spain (in Hebrew Sepharad) until they were expelled at the end of the fifteenth century and settled in the countries bordering the Mediterranean, the Balkans, and to a lesser extent in Western Europe. They spoke a Spanish-Hebrew dialect, Ladino, and preserved their own traditions and religious rites. In the 1960s, the number of Sephardim was estimated at 500000.

The Ashkenazim, at the same period, numbered about eleven million. Thus, in common parlance, Jew is practically synonymous with Ashkenazi Jew.”

In Mr. Koestler’s own words, “The story of the Khazar Empire, as it slowly emerges from the past, begins to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated.”

As expected, The Thirteenth Tribe caused a stir when published in 1976, since it demolishes ancient racial and ethnic dogmas…At the height of the controversy in 1983, the lifeless bodies of Arthur Koestler and his wife were found in their London home. Despite significant inconsistencies, the police ruled their death a suicide…
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Quest
post Jan 25 2009, 02:17 AM
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The Thirteenth Tribe
http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/
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dMz
post Jan 25 2009, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Quest @ Jan 24 2009, 11:17 PM) *

The .PDF of Koestler's book is currently available at:

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/13tribe.pdf
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Sanders
post Jan 25 2009, 02:27 PM
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I'm surprised that that site posted that lecture by Jack Otto and quotes from Koestler's book on the same page. Obviously Mr. Otto hasn't read Koestler's book.

When I had more time for research and was posting often in my "dragon-thread" I was sometimes guilty of making a big mistake - JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. It seems everytime I did, I uncovered something else that flew in the face of what I had just concluded. This Jack Otto, of Forbidden Knowledge fame, jumps from conclusion to conclusion, and apparently never stops to consider any conflicting information that might get in his way. (I'm speaking about the early part of his lecture.)

No offense, Quest, the value of Koestler's book makes up for what Jack Otto's lecture lacks, but jeeez, someone needs to speak out now and then against these morons who play on the average person's unfamiliarity with this corner of history, and cherry-pick and distort facts at will to support their own made-up world-view. I'm not saying Jack Otto's world-view is incorrect or isn't valid, I don't know - but it certainly can't be supported by the history he's laying out for his audience, because he just plain doesn't know what he's talking about.

Examples -

He starts off explaining how in around 500 AD the Khazars "came down south out of Turkey", some fled West into Romania and Hungary ... "and became the Gypsies".

Huh? Whah??? I've never heard such horse manure. Khazaria didn't exist in 500 AD, and while the Khazars may have been a "Turkic" people to some extent, they never inhabited Turkey ... and you have to go NORTHWEST from Turkey to find Hungary or Romania. The heritage of the Gypsies is a whole 'nother ball of wax - no one really knows where they came from, but there's alot of evidence that their anscestors were slaves imported from India. They certainly weren't Khazars. The Khazars in around the 7th century forced the Bulgars to move up into what became Bulgaria, other than that, I don't know what he's talking about.

He says the Khazars followed their "Chagans" (Mr. Otto, the word is pretty universally agreed to be "Kagans") into the steppes of Russia, and north of there into the "Caucus" mountains.

Ughgh. Caucasus, caucaSUS mountains, which are SOUTH of the Russian steppes, you moron.

Then he lays out how the Khazars came under pressure from Christians to the North and Moslems from the south and decided to become Jewish as a politically expedient move - which is basically true from what I know (but doesn't tell the whole story), and then how in their studying their new religion they identified with Lucifer.

I've never heard this before, I wonder where he gets it.

He gives the impression that the Khazars, before converting, were a religion-less people, a blank slate. But he and many sources allude to Turkish origins. That whole area (Anatolia/modern Turkey) was a hot-bed of Cybele worshippers through the Greek era - a cult which had followers at least as far east as the Caucasus. And what about the Iranian Gnostic sects, what about Manichaeism which flourished in Armenia, just south of the Caucasus? Or Zoroastrianism? These were all Kabbalistic/pagan-leaning sects, with roots ultimately in Chaldee to the south, and which all enjoyed various degrees of popularity in the centuries before the Khazars consolidated their Kingdom just north of Anatolia and Armenia - did none of these ideas seep up into Khazaria?

Yet the best explanation Jack Otto can come up with for the "Lucifer" worshipping aspect of his alleged Khazar ancestors of the NWO implementing ruling elite, is that the newly converted Khazars, in their study of Judaism, and because they were such blood-thirsty warriors (as he describes them), just happened to identify with the character of Lucifer.

How is one to reconcile Ottos's "blood-thirsty warrior" description of the Khazars with this one, from Vasilii V. Grigorie in the 19th century -

"The Khazar people were an unusual phenomenon for Medieval times. Surrounded by savage and nomadic tribes, they had all the advantages of the developed countries: structured government, vast and prosperous trading, and a permanent army. At the time, when great fanatism and deep ignorance contested their dominion over Western Europe, the Khazar state was famous for its justice and tolerance. People persecuted for their faiths flocked into Khazaria from everywhere."

Then he differentiates between the 10 northern tribes (the House of Israel), and the two in the south, Benjamin and Judah, noting that only those from Judah were actually Jews. And then he says that Jews descended from Khazars (he says 92% of the world's Jews - which may roughly be true) are not really Jews.

The Khazar ancestry part of that is largely true apparently, but what he doesn't tell you (and probably doesn't realise), is that there's a very high certainty that many from the northern tribes were driven or carried out of the Levant into northern Mesopotamia and the Caucasus - the oldest Jewish communities known are in Georgia. There's lots of evidence that many Israelites found their way into the Caucasus, and most likely up into Scythia as well (later Khazaria). Furthermore, there was a city in Israel called Scythopolis. A princess of Israel, Tamar Tephi, is said to have married a Scythian - and another legend has Scota, an Egyptian princess, marrying they royal Scythian Mil, with sons Eber and Eremon (evoking Hebrew and Hermon?). That's all circumstantial, but I've stumbled onto many passages while reading which attest to substantial numbers of Israelites migrating north into Scythia - which became Khazaria.

That doesn't mean these refugees from Israel were truly Jews, if you go by Otto's defninition. However, did belief in the Torah suddenly end at the edges of the tribal lands of Judah and Benjamin, with everyone north of there remaining Pagan? Of course not! Biblically speaking we know that the most pagan-leaning of the 12 tribes were Dan and Naphtali, the northernmost tribes (after Dan moved). It follows from common sense that observance of the new religion gradually weakened as one moved north - so there were probably a lot of pagan Israelites who wound up in Khazaria - and Torah observing Jews as well. Add to this that Khazaria was religiously tolerant and attracted many Jews in the early middle ages as well, this often repeated claim that the Khazars were "fake Jews", or as Otto says, "don't have a drop of Semitic blood in their viens" (not-withstanding what the h@ll Semitic means!), is an exaggeration if not unfounded.

Now, if he accounted for the migrations of the northern tribes into Scythia and their proximity in Israel to the Ba'al worshipping Phoenicians and Ammonites (and THEIR pagan beliefs), if he understood that there was a smooth continuum between Judaism as practiced in the south and the paganism of Phoenica in the north, and how the traditions of the later married easily with the cults that had sprung up in Anatolia and parts west of there in the centuries following the expulsion of the northern tribes (due to common origins in Chaldea?), then he would have his answer of why a "dark" brand of Kabbalah might have spread out from Khazaria in at least certain elite circles into Eastern Europe. But he doesn't account for any of that, and so makes up a story about blood-thirsty "Jew-pretending" Khazars stumbling onto accounts of Lucifer and identifying with the fallen angel.

He talks about the Varangian Rus invading Khazaria - does he realize that those same Varangian Rus were allied with and soon intermarried with western Khazars (the Arpad leaders of the Kabar/Magyar tribes) who had already migrated west to Hungary? That THIS is where the roots of the Rothschilds and Bavarian Illuminati lie, NOT with the Kagans who remained in Khazaria and were defeated by the Mongols later? And who is this Kagan (Khazarian king) who supposedly fled to Spain? I've never heard this ... is he confused again, is he thinking about the the Scythian king Mil and the Melisian migration to Spain, probably a mythical record of a real migration, but one that happened a thousand years earlier? I googled Khazaria and Spain together and got a lot of stuff, but nothing about a Kagan moving to Spain after the final fall of Khazaria. Even Koestler's well researched book says nothing about such an event.

What a charlatan. rolleyes.gif

I attack Mr. Otto with such relish and abandon because there are others out there like him, and these myths have gained some momentum in the last few years. Please don't repeat them. It's rubbish. The religious "dark" side he describes may well be real, but it is rooted in the Cult of Cybele and in the Kabbalah mysticism that was practiced in Phoenician ports and in Chaldea - it comes from the ancient concept of good and evil in balance, intertwined as represented in the Magen David. That's the level of my understanding at least.

In all fairness, Mr. Otto's batting average improves as the lecture goes on, I didn't listen to the whole thing.

I have nothing but praise for Koestler though - I've read some of 'the 13th tribe' before, I read more today. What a great book, what a goldmine of information on a subject about which information is scarce.

So, for what it's worth, a big thumbs up on Koestler's 13th tribe, a big thumbs down on Jack Otto. Sheeesh.
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Quest
post Jan 25 2009, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 25 2009, 07:27 PM) *
I'm surprised that that site posted that lecture by Jack Otto and quotes from Koestler's book on the same page. Obviously Mr. Otto hasn't read Koestler's book.

When I had more time for research and was posting often in my "dragon-thread" I was sometimes guilty of making a big mistake - JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. It seems everytime I did, I uncovered something else that flew in the face of what I had just concluded. This Jack Otto, of Forbidden Knowledge fame, jumps from conclusion to conclusion, and apparently never stops to consider any conflicting information that might get in his way. (I'm speaking about the early part of his lecture.)

No offense, Quest, the value of Koestler's book makes up for what Jack Otto's lecture lacks, but jeeez, someone needs to speak out now and then against these morons who play on the average person's unfamiliarity with this corner of history, and cherry-pick and distort facts at will to support their own made-up world-view. I'm not saying Jack Otto's world-view is incorrect or isn't valid, I don't know - but it certainly can't be supported by the history he's laying out for his audience, because he just plain doesn't know what he's talking about.

Now, if he accounted for the migrations of the northern tribes into Scythia and their proximity in Israel to the Ba'al worshipping Phoenicians and Ammonites (and THEIR pagan beliefs), if he understood that there was a smooth continuum between Judaism as practiced in the south and the paganism of Phoenica in the north, and how the traditions of the later married easily with the cults that had sprung up in Anatolia and parts west of there in the centuries following the expulsion of the northern tribes (due to common origins in Chaldea?), then he would have his answer of why a "dark" brand of Kabbalah might have spread out from Khazaria in at least certain elite circles into Eastern Europe. But he doesn't account for any of that, and so makes up a story about blood-thirsty "Jew-pretending" Khazars stumbling onto accounts of Lucifer and identifying with the fallen angel.

In all fairness, Mr. Otto's batting average improves as the lecture goes on, I didn't listen to the whole thing.

I have nothing but praise for Koestler though - I've read some of 'the 13th tribe' before, I read more today. What a great book, what a goldmine of information on a subject about which information is scarce.

So, for what it's worth, a big thumbs up on Koestler's 13th tribe, a big thumbs down on Jack Otto. Sheeesh.


No problem Sanders, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, bro. That why I posted it here instead of the other thread. I also thought Otto jumped to conclusions and made some leaps but still made some good points, for instance, the constant name changing of the perps of the Soviet and Ukraine genocides to hide obvious ties and agendas. And yes, you have to listen to the whole thing - which I did. I wasn't focusing in on Otto's presentation but rather the information he was attempting to encapsulate which was detailed in Koestler's 13th tribe. wink.gif

This post has been edited by Quest: Jan 25 2009, 03:57 PM
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Sanders
post Jan 25 2009, 04:09 PM
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What can I say - for me, it's a credibility problem. dunno.gif
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Quest
post Jan 25 2009, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 25 2009, 09:09 PM) *
I appreciate all that, and I'm all for not throwing babies out with the bath water. But it's a credibility problem. Maybe I'm throwing stones from a glass house, but he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about in that first part, he doesn't even know where these places are. How are you supposed to trust that anything else he says is reliable, if you didn't know already?


No problem Sanders. Go at it. Just be careful how you frame your message. For someone (Otto) who's trying to expose the truth, claims of "charlatan" being huled around will offend people and turn them off. Remember, there are all kinds of levels and entry points to 911 truth and history. Otto is by far not the most knowledgable or polished speaker regarding this topic - my pick is Ralph Scheonman - author of The Hidden History Of Zionism - but I thought Otto had some interesting observations in this video, nontheless. No need to kill him, just say he's not the best and point out his inaccuracies. If you want to can him, you can probably do that for 60% of the truth movement, yet all we have is each other. Let's educate each other, not denounce. Point out Otto's inaccuracies and post something better. cheers.gif
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Sanders
post Jan 27 2009, 03:19 PM
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Quest, I watched a couple of vids of Ralph Scheonman lectures, thank you for the tip. That guy indeed is worth listening to. Scheonman rocks. thumbsup.gif - I'll have to pick up that book you mentioned.

I almost posted again a couple of times, but let it lie. I felt kind-of bad for letting loose like that, and you are right, it's probably a turn-off to attack people like that and I have criticized others for precisely the same thing - but in this case I really think the response was appropriate. That guy (Otto) has no business speaking about the Khazar empire. The mistakes he makes (numerous) can not reasonably be attributed to nervousness, he obviously is too lazy to do any serious research or even crack open a map once in a while.

If I had been in the audience at that lecture, I would have said that and more to his face - not because he is too lazy to look at a map, but because he is discussing a topic which most people know nothing about, and hence are prone to accept new information as truthful (especially when it's explained to them as such in a confident way by someone who is introduced as having some credentials and knowledge on the subject), and most importantly, because it's a very sensitive and explosive topic - Judaism, Ashkenazi Jewish roots in Khazaria, and the Khazar relationship to the authoritative grip closing in on us.

Yes, it's most likely true that the vast majority of European Jews are descended from Khazars, as are the Rothschild banking family, as is the Bavarian "Illuminati" movement, the Rosicrucians of the same era, and the Zionists in power in Israel today for that matter. But, if you rewind a couple hundred years to when it was still known as Scythia, so are the Vikings, and the Visogoths, and the Ostrogoths, and the Franks - we are ALL descended from that area (especially if you include the Cauacus and Thrace) to some degree, and that goes triple for the ruling elite. And there is a very good reason for that, which I won't go into because it's all in my dragon thread and I'm getting off topic.

The point is, what Jack Otto is selling is NOT a viable entry point to the truth in my opinion. What he is saying is very counterproductive and does a lot of damage. He of course doesn't realize that - he's just repeating what he's heard without doing even a minimal amount of research or fact-checking, in fact he's mixing things up and confusing a Scythian migration to Spain with an imagined Khazar migration. It's just unbelievable, the inaccuracies.

QUOTE
Point out Otto's inaccuracies and post something better.


Yes - I did and I have. My dragon thread, which is precisely about this deep and elusive topic, has over 7000 views here, I have posts in other forums as well, and am working on other things.

People like Jack Otto do a double disservice - they spread bad information, and their lack of competence reflects on others who take the topic seriously. The gap between Otto and other researchers (like Koestler) who spend years trying to piece together details about the various tribes in the huge and complex Khazarian empire is as wide as the Grand Canyon. I think my use of the word "charlatan" was perfectly justified.

I've said my piece, I'll shut up now.
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Quest
post Jan 27 2009, 11:04 PM
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No problem Sanders. cheers.gif
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