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Questions About Flight Door, How Do I Debunk a Debunker!

REDSHIFT
post Nov 30 2009, 02:08 PM
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Hi I just joined, as you can see. rolleyes.gif I got hooked on your forum in the middle of the night, while reading about the FDR and Flight 77 Flight Deck Doors not being open. I understand the part about this FDR not being for the actual flight. I got a few knit-picker debunkers, that have me going around in circles about stuff. I asked them to read your whole thread first, before commenting. This one has me stumped. You know more about it than I do, can anyone here explain it to me, so that I can give the poster a snappy comeback? handsdown.gif
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18405
QUOTE
Quote:
Yes, the FLT DECK DOOR value was CLOSED for the entire flight. You got me. Oh wait, the same parameter is the same for ALL recorded 12 flights. The pilots never got anything to eat or left the flight deck to go to the bathroom, not even on the long LA - DC flights. As a matter of fact, the door is NEVER recorded OPEN for any point ever when the FDR is recording. Very strange. The pilots must have worn those astronaut diapers.

Thoughts and advice: There are 42 HOURS of flight data in Warren RO. It is wise to check your observations for the last minutes or flight against the other 41 hours of recorded data. I don't know why the value is CLOSED for the entire 42 hours (that is one for the pilot folks to hash out), but if the parameter never changes and reason dictates that it should at some point, then I can conclude one of two things. The parameter was not being recorded and a default value was being stored, or the parameter being recorded is not what some think it is.

and after my reply, I got this:
QUOTE
The Flight Deck door parameter is also listed as "Not Working or Unconfirmed" on page 13 of the FDR report:

http://www.911myths.com/AAL77_fdr.pdf

I'll see if I can track down the file 911files was working from.

The poster pulled it from another site, and only posted a thread link, instead of where this information really came from. I questioned their motive. I am a truth seeker. NOT A DEBUNKER or a TROLL. I just have to deal with them.
Lots of the other members, found this forum very interesting, and thanked me.
If you want to check out the thread, so that I can prove my honest intentions, read it here.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/view...asc&start=0
We're all on the same side.
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rob balsamo
post Nov 30 2009, 02:37 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

Thank you for asking these questions in a new thread as now others (and me smile.gif) will have a link to send to those who ask.

Your above questions were already covered, but I will consolidate them here along with many other common arguments against our work.

QUOTE
Claim - How can anyone trust data from some anonymous guy in Australia?
A. We agree, but he is not really anonymous. He does give his name, but we werent able to ask him if he wanted his name used in the article. That is why we cross checked it with our own data we received from the NTSB. You can also get your own directly from the NTSB as we did. Visit ntsb.gov and fill out their FOIA request form online.

Claim - Does the cockpit door show open for the pilots to get in?
A. No, it shows closed for entire flight. The FDR starts recording when the engines are started. Clearly the pilots would be in their seats and cabin/flight deck secure during this phase of flight.


Claim - Does the FDR record if the door is open or closed?
A. Clearly it does. It says closed for the entire flight and was confirmed by the Data Frame Layout provided by the NTSB and a pilot who has flight time in this exact 757 at American Airlines.


Claim - The sensor must have failed.
A. Speculation, but if the sensor failed, it would "ding" the FDR that a sensor has failed during self-diagnosis. If the FDR is inoperative, the airplane is not allowed to take-off. The sensor was operative. People who make this claim, would also have to prove the sensor fails in the closed position.


Claim - The hijackers kicked in the door and jammed the sensor in the closed position.
A. Again, pure speculation based on incredulity. But the fact remains, the data shows the door as closed, the altitude too high to hit the Pentagon, Vertical speed too great for level off as seen in DoD 5 frames video, the list goes on. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment on such blatant conflict with the govt story.


Claim - The bird strike which took out the Flight Data Recorder prior to impact also took out the door sensor 30 mins prior to impact
A. Not really a claim made by "duhbunkers" at this point in time, but give it a few days. wink.gif

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779381


QUOTE
Another claim that could be made is that the NTSB lists this parameter as "not working or unconfirmed". They also list Radar Altitude the same - "not working or unconfirmed". Those who make excuse for the govt story cherry pick the newly decoded Radar Data for their impact theories but disregard confirmed Pressure altitude data which shows too high to hit the Pentagon. It is quite possible the NTSB listed "FLT DECK DOOR" as "unconfirmed" due to the fact they believe the door would and should have been opened during flight for the hijack to take place. Again, this goes back to the jumpseat issue and why the FAA ceased all offline commuters access to the jumpseat post-911.[Until verified and then CASS system]

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779386


QUOTE
Unfortunately, [we] have no way to verify the other 11 flights in [the] data. However, the last flight does verify with our data.

I spoke with Ralph Kolstad (American 757 Capt) and Rusty (United 757 Capt), they verified and confirmed my article before i published it.

Also, it is not unusual to keep the cockpit door closed during flight. I have gone on many 4-5 hour flights never leaving the cockpit. I've even done many trips single and twin engine prop from NY to Florida, Memphis... etc, 8-10 hours of flying, with one pee break at midway point when stopping for gas. I know many pilots who go hours without leaving their seat.

Many pilots dont like to leave the flight deck. Its called "The Walk Of Shame" for a reason...lol


Also keep in mind, some of the previous flight locations if i recall were LA-ORD-MIA-IAD, These are relatively short legs. 2-3 hours. Hit the bathroom before boarding, bring your lunch (which most pilots do to save some cash and eat more healthy than airline food), and you never need to leave your seat. There is also plenty of room to stretch on a 757 Flight Deck.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779433


QUOTE
You are correct about the short flights. The longest section of FDR data for all flights (engines on to engines off) is only 4 hours and 34 minutes. If the pilots never left the flight deck during the previous 11 flights, then it would appear to me that either:
(1) The flight deck door was never opened while the engines were running.
(2) The flight deck door open/closed state was not sensed and recorded correctly. e.g. The door sensor reports closed when the door is actually open.
(3) The flight deck door was opened, but for less than 4 seconds each time.

I am open to suggestions.

I have only just started reading through the thread you included a link to.

Warren.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779484


QUOTE
If your data is correct for the previous 11 flights....

1 is certainly possible as discussed...

I can see 3 apply to the previous 11 flights as a pilot could have walked through the door in less than 4 seconds and the FDR missed the poll?

But for the "Hijackers" to storm the cockpit and then remove the pilots in less than 4 seconds, twice? Highly unlikely.

Number 2 i dont see as possible as the sensor is routed through the EICAS which is a crew alert system on the same display unit (tv screen for the layman) as the engine gauges. If the door sensor failed, the pilots would have known about it. I think its also a "no-go" item, which means the plane would be grounded until the switch was fixed by maintenance. Which is probably a quick fix and not much of a delay. Probably can be done with passengers on board.

Also, Capt Kolstad confirmed the door sensors were installed prior to 9/11. Therefore, the FDR was polling the door sensor on American Airlines 757's, hence the reason it is listed in the data and showing a door state.

Rusty (United Capt) wasnt sure if there was a cockpit door sensor on his aircraft. Which corresponds with the fact that UA93 data doesnt show a parameter for FLT DECK DOOR. But he did say they had a switch to open the door. But was located in a different area of the cockpit than on American 757's.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779488

Hope this helps.
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REDSHIFT
post Nov 30 2009, 03:24 PM
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Thanks Rob. You've built a great site. This is one place that I'm totally lost, being a blonde, and all. (No offense to the gorgeous lady from the Netherlands). It's spelled out. I've been onboard with the Truth Movement from Day One. Maybe it's because I'm one of those "chemtails-are-being-sprayed-by-TPTB" believers. I'm sure they'll be giving me a red pill, when the great roundup comes along. tongue.gif
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rob balsamo
post Nov 30 2009, 03:40 PM
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I just checked that forum RED. Thanks for the kind words. smile.gif

Here's more common arguments addressed.

QUOTE
Another theory that some may use is that Hani [the reported "Hijacker Pilot"] was on the jumpseat and therefore the door never needed to be open. After 9/11, the cockpit jumpseat was closed to all offline commuters (pilots from other airlines who couldnt be verified) due to the fact govt officials thought the hijackers had access to the flight deck. Is the [Door] parameter the reason why they thought this? Because the door was never opened? If this were the case, you still have 2 pilots against one, and the problem of 'herding the pilots to the back of the plane'. The door had to be open either way, and for more than 4 seconds... if the govt story is to hold true.


http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779362
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Boomer
post Nov 30 2009, 04:17 PM
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So far no one has described the actual contact mechanism on the door. Is it two contacts common in burglar alarm systems, is it photo, UHF, or button in the door frame? Could it be a contact stuck mechanically closed?
As regards the telephone call from Olsen. Could she have been equipped with a satellite phone that enabled the call?
The man who called his mother and gave his full name. A business man or salesman is so used to identifying himself that it was just natural for him to give his full name. I have given my full name to my wife in the past.
This post is an honest warning that sometimes evidence is planted to get the opposition rallied, only to produce evidence and explanations supporting their story. If you can prove the opposition is wrong on one item, you can libel them on the rest and get away with it.
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rob balsamo
post Nov 30 2009, 04:26 PM
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Welcome to the forum Boomer,

Hopefully this will help to answer your question on the Flight Deck Door.

QUOTE
Just to clarify:

If the door latch was broken, or the switch sensing the door 'CLOSED' position was faulty, the signal would default to a logic '1' and the FDR would
show "OPEN" all the way through the flight. This is due to the "pull up resistor" built into the electric circuit connected to the power source.

Because the ground signal is only presented when the switch/door is shut, it is a strong case to show the sensor was functional.

You could argue that it would appear most suspicious to see the field parameter reading OPEN for all flights and never change as this
would be out of practice for pilots in flight.

As Mr. Balsamo stated earlier, it's very common and logical to accept the fact that pilots do not leave the flight deck during short
flights, and therefore a constant CLOSED value is what we would expect to see.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779528

As for the alleged phone calls from the flight, please use our extremely effective search function.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...ode=adv&f=0

Please keep this thread on topic. Thank you.
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JFK
post Nov 30 2009, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (Boomer @ Nov 30 2009, 04:17 PM) *
So far no one has described the actual contact mechanism on the door. Is it two contacts common in burglar alarm systems, is it photo, UHF, or button in the door frame? Could it be a contact stuck mechanically closed?


My manual says proximity switch... I am guessing inductive.
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rob balsamo
post Nov 30 2009, 05:01 PM
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Thank you for that JFK! We been waiting on a reply for that information. But I didn't want to say anything till we had confirmation.

This means the door would have shown open if even kicked in as there is nothing mechanical to break or "jam" in a Proxy Switch.

I had a feeling it was a proxy. On the aircraft i fly, Gear, Emergency Exits, all doors, all on proxy switches to prevent common failures as experienced in mechanical switches. I figured the 757 wouldnt be any different.

Thanks again JFK..

Good to see you back too.. smile.gif
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JFK
post Nov 30 2009, 05:23 PM
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YW Rob.

Just to add....
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rob balsamo
post Nov 30 2009, 05:30 PM
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JFK,

I have a feeling Turbofan is going to be smothering you for documents. :-)

Thanks again my friend....
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Guest_Turbofan_*
post Nov 30 2009, 06:05 PM
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Wow, this is GOLD, Truly gold! This configuration is fool proof and knocks out any of the excuses the
GL's make about "jammed switch", "faulty switch", etc.

In the event a proximity switch fails, it will show OPEN, or a LOGIC 1!!!!

If the switch is defective it cannot complete the circuit either.


Even if the door is slightly open (not completely shut), it will show open. This is because the circuit is ONLY complete when the door is tight against the jamb.


On top of this, the wiring to the breaker panel and pilot controls would have made it SIMPLE to interface
with the FDR wiring. In other words, the retrofit to install the door switch would not require extensive
plumbing, wiring, backbending to get a voltage signal from the circuit to the FDR port input.

JFK, if I may I'd like to contact you further about this circuit and diagrams.

Thanks!
Tino
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JFK
post Nov 30 2009, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Turbofan @ Nov 30 2009, 06:05 PM) *
JFK, if I may I'd like to contact you further about this circuit and diagrams.

Thanks!
Tino


Sure Tino, do it by PM here as I do not have my email accounts set up yet after this last bout with virut.
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tezzajw
post Nov 30 2009, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Turbofan @ Dec 1 2009, 10:05 AM) *
Wow, this is GOLD, Truly gold! This configuration is fool proof and knocks out any of the excuses the
GL's make about "jammed switch", "faulty switch", etc.

Get cracking, turbo!

You know how excited the GLs get when they read your replies.

Give them more reason to keep on bumping the threads for everyone's attention.
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Guest_Turbofan_*
post Nov 30 2009, 06:57 PM
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I'm working on it already. Going to get more info from JFK and write-up a step-by-step breakdown
of how this circuit works and WHY it would not matter if the door was kicked down, or the switch failed.
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wstutt
post Dec 1 2009, 02:05 AM
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Thanks JFK,

QUOTE (JFK @ Dec 5 2009, 09:43 PM) *
My manual says proximity switch... I am guessing inductive.
Is that a Boeing 757 manual that you took your images from?

If so, does it have a date on it?

Unfortunately, I could not view the attached images in your posts #7 and #9. I get an error "Sorry, but you do not have permission to use this feature. If you are not logged in, you may do so using the form below if available." even though I am logged in.

Warren.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 1 2009, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (wstutt @ Dec 1 2009, 02:05 AM) *
I get an error "Sorry, but you do not have permission to use this feature. If you are not logged in, you may do so using the form below if available." even though I am logged in.

Warren.


Fixed. Sorry about that.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 1 2009, 09:50 AM
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Ok, I see this popping up a lot around the net so let me address it now.

Claim - P4T are not using the proper Data Frame Layout when showing the port location in his diagram. They are using 757-3, they should be using 757-2 which doesn't show a FLT DECK DOOR parameter. AA77 was a 757-2 airplane.

A- Those who make this claim are confusing the Data Frame Layout (DFL) number with Aircraft Type. 757-3b is the proper Data Frame Layout required for N644AA as listed here in the NTSB pdf for N644AA.

http://www.ntsb.gov/about/Documents/AAL77_fdr.pdf
(bottom of page 2)

United 93 was also a 757-200 aircraft, but used 757-4 Data Frame Layout.
http://www.ntsb.gov/about/Documents/UAL93FDR.pdf
(also bottom of page 2)

DFL 757-3b (AA77, a 757-200) has the FLT DECK DOOR parameter which is why you see it listed under the parameters in the NTSB pdf and recorded in the data.

DFL 757-4 (UA93, a 757-200) does not list a FLT DECK DOOR parameter, which is why it is not listed in the NTSB pdf nor recorded.

Data Frame Layout (DFL) number does not correspond to specific aircraft type and are not interchangeable. The -2, -3b, -4 suffix are just revision numbers of the generic Data Frame Layout from Boeing. -3b is a specific revision for American Airlines and then was modified and custom made by American Airlines into 757-3b_1.txt specifically tailored for their 757-200 aircraft and needs specific to American Airlines. 757-4 is a revision number made for United Airlines specifically for their 757-200 Aircraft. United Airlines then custom made their own DFL from the generic Boeing 757-4 DFL into 757UALmap.xls, specifically tailor made for their 757-200 aircraft.

People who make the argument that the 757-2 DFL belongs to a 757-200 series aircraft are using a leap in logic just because they see a 2 after each number designation. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Using the same logic, DFL 757-4 should belong to a 757-400 aircraft... but such an aircraft does not exist. DFL 757-4 was made for United Airlines 757-200 series aircraft.
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JFK
post Dec 1 2009, 10:05 AM
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Just in case there is any question about my manual, the cover page ( airline info blocked out by me )
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Guest_Turbofan_*
post Dec 1 2009, 10:33 AM
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What do you expect from people who make excuses without having CURRENT, AUTHORIZED, DOCUMENTATION! rolleyes.gif
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Aldo Marquis CIT
post Dec 1 2009, 12:46 PM
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Nice one, JFK. I got the same manual and I think we got it from the same place. A certain poster from Letsroll wink.gif
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