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Speed Ground Ual175, Le calcul des vitesses par le NTSB

rob balsamo
post May 6 2014, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (tournesol01 @ May 6 2014, 03:45 PM) *
NO ! The speeds displayed on the radar screens are those sent by the transponder !


Really? Can you please tell me what type of transponder sends speed information?


QUOTE
I do not know if speed is displayed if the transponder is in mode 3 / A.
You tell me !


Speed is displayed to ATC based on distance/time calculations made by the Radar hardware itself in real time and is constantly updating. The transponder does not send speed information.

Read and learn...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_tran...de_A_and_Mode_C

"UA175" was squawking Mode C throughout its entire flight... although the squawk code was changed... (according to the official story).

Your speed margins for error are absurd. If such margins existed, planes would be running into each other daily at every major hub across the globe.

Again, the speeds reported by the NTSB have been cross-checked using several different radar facilities and video analysis. The speeds reported by the NTSB are accurate. The speeds reported (both yours and the NTSB) exceed the performance of a standard 767 by a wide margin.
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tournesol01
post May 6 2014, 05:33 PM
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alt, hdg, speed
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rob balsamo
post May 6 2014, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (tournesol01 @ May 6 2014, 05:33 PM) *



"This document is derived from computer magnetic recordings of internal computer processing. It is not an exact representation of the control position display." - page 5 of your pdf


Emphasis mine...

The data in your document also terminates more than 3 mins prior to "impact".

Again, transponders do not send speed information.
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ May 6 2014, 10:41 PM) *
"This document is derived from computer magnetic recordings of internal computer processing. It is not an exact representation of the control position display." - page 5 of your pdf


Emphasis mine...

The data in your document also terminates more than 3 mins prior to "impact".

Again, transponders do not send speed information.


Oh oui !
J'ai mal interprété l'intitulé de ce dernier fichier !
Les vitesses sont effectivement calculées.

Je pensais que cette information de vitesse était disponible en mode S.

Mais alors, dans ce pdf, pourquoi la vitesse n'est-elle pas calculée jusqu'à la fin du vol ?

Oh yes!
I misread the title of the last file!
The speeds are actually calculated.

I thought this information was available speed in S mode

But then, in this pdf, why speed is it not calculated until the end of the flight?
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 04:36 AM
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Si c'est à cause d'un radar trop éloigné que la vitesse n'a pas été calculée jusqu'au bout, c'est bien que la précision doit faire défaut, non ?

If this is due to a radar too far as speed was not calculated until the end, it is that the accuracy is lacking, right?
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 08:19 AM
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Sinon, le NTSB aurait repris des données du même style et les aurait communiquées telles quelles.

Otherwise, the NTSB would have taken data of the same style and would have communicated as is.
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 09:04 AM
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rob balsamo
post May 7 2014, 11:48 AM
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JFK, EWR, HPN, SWF and RADES radar were all used in determining aircraft performance (speed) during the final portion of flight (not just 'impact'). The details and files are contained and referenced in the Recorded Radar Data Study provided by the NTSB. EWR is sourced as the "impact" speed in the NTSB Radar Data Impact Speed Study due to its close proximity to the WTC, being the most accurate. Remember, this was also cross-checked with video analysis in the NTSB Video Data Impact Speed Study.

The speeds reported are accurate.

The speeds reported (along with the maneuvers) during the final portion of flight exceed the capabilities of a standard 767 by a wide margin.

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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 12:51 PM
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Ok ! What time begins for you, the final portion of flight ?

This post has been edited by tournesol01: May 7 2014, 12:54 PM
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rob balsamo
post May 7 2014, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (tournesol01 @ May 7 2014, 12:51 PM) *
Ok ! What time begins for you, the final portion of flight ?


The same as depicted in the JFK, EWR, HPN, SWF, RADES and N90 files referenced by the NTSB in the Recorded Radar Data Study.

Have you opened it?
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lurker
post May 7 2014, 01:19 PM
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thankyou rob and tournesol01 for your interesting discussion!

I am sorry I can't contribute anything useful because I am lacking knowledge in this field.
But I just wonder why in the pdf-file linked above (http://unique.annonce.free.fr/downloads/Plot_transpondeur_UAL175_CDR.pdf) are 2 pages (p 2,3) "transmission verification report", where the first shows the date "09/06/2001" ...

But also, as an IT professional I am curious to learn why "magnetic recordings of internal computer processing" could in any way NOT represent an accurate representation of the data received, processed and stored during computer processing? The second sentence in this paragraph (p 5) I think relates to "the document" you look at, not the data ...
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rob balsamo
post May 7 2014, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (lurker @ May 7 2014, 01:19 PM) *
thankyou rob and tournesol01 for your interesting discussion!

I am sorry I can't contribute anything useful because I am lacking knowledge in this field.


lol... that doesn't stop tournesol from giving his two cents... he still thinks a transponder can transmit speed data after I have already given him a source which shows it does not, in any mode... smile.gif

QUOTE
But I just wonder why in the pdf-file linked above (http://unique.annonce.free.fr/downloads/Plot_transpondeur_UAL175_CDR.pdf) are 2 pages (p 2,3) "transmission verification report", where the first shows the date "09/06/2001" ...


Yes, that is interesting.... I noticed that too. The two pages are from different fax machines.. .so the first inaccurate date could be explained by an incorrect date setting on that particular machine.

QUOTE
But also, as an IT professional I am curious to learn why "magnetic recordings of internal computer processing" could in any way NOT represent an accurate representation of the data received, processed and stored during computer processing? The second sentence in this paragraph (p 5) I think relates to "the document" you look at, not the data ...


I think they were referencing the graphic itself since it shows some offsets. If the date/time on page 3 is accurate (09/11/2001 1607... im assuming in Zulu), the fax was sent only hours after the events.. so clearly the data was a preliminary rough output.
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ May 7 2014, 06:33 PM) *
lol... that doesn't stop tournesol from giving his two cents... he still thinks a transponder can transmit speed data after I have already given him a source which shows it does not, in any mode... smile.gif


I have forsaken this opinion because I understand now that the speed shown in the PDF data was calculated.
But speed can be sent Mode S transponder.
You do not tell me if the planes were equipped in 2001.
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ May 7 2014, 06:06 PM) *
The same as depicted in the JFK, EWR, HPN, SWF, RADES and N90 files referenced by the NTSB in the Recorded Radar Data Study.

Have you opened it?


No, I do not have these files!
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rob balsamo
post May 7 2014, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (tournesol01 @ May 7 2014, 03:01 PM) *
But speed can be sent Mode S transponder.


Please show me a source which says speed data can be sent via Mode S prior to 9/11/2001.

QUOTE
No, I do not have these files!


The link to the pdf is above. All you have to do is click it.

Tournesol01, can you please provide your experience, if any, in aviation? And if none, what experience/education do you have to analyze radar data provided by the NTSB?

Do you still feel the margin of error could be as much as 140 knots? Have you reviewed the Video Data Impact Speed Study?
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ May 7 2014, 08:11 PM) *
Please show me a source which says speed data can be sent via Mode S prior to 9/11/2001.


Mode S

Almost at the end

In 2001 I do not know !

This post has been edited by tournesol01: May 7 2014, 04:39 PM
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (tournesol01 @ May 7 2014, 08:01 PM) *
I have forsaken this opinion because I understand now that the speed shown in the PDF data was calculated.
But speed can be sent Mode S transponder.
You do not tell me if the planes were equipped in 2001.

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rob balsamo
post May 7 2014, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (tournesol01 @ May 7 2014, 04:37 PM) *
Mode S

Almost at the end

In 2001 I do not know !



Neither of the sources provided via wiki link to a specific source.

Please answer my other questions....

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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ May 7 2014, 08:11 PM) *
The link to the pdf is above. All you have to do is click it.


????? !! Where ? Click where, in what ?
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tournesol01
post May 7 2014, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ May 7 2014, 08:11 PM) *
Tournesol01, can you please provide your experience, if any, in aviation? And if none, what experience/education do you have to analyze radar data provided by the NTSB?


So I am 57 years old.
I worked 36 years in the French air force.
I was technician (installer / repairman) radio / nav in aircraft.
I ended my career as researcher in aircraft maintenance.
I also worked on the maintenance management of some missiles.
I flew alone, very little time on Rally 100hp and glider (WASSMER WA-30 "Bijave")
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