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The Dragon Blood-line

Sanders
post Jul 30 2008, 03:58 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 2 2008, 08:59 PM) *
Thanks Sanders,

I don't think that author is looking far enough back in the "Wayback Machine"


Hmm, not sure, I'm only concerned with the "dragon blood-line", the Aesar, Vanir and Erul peoples that arrived and their roots. If you're referring to the BC histories of the indigenous peoples that were in Scandinavia before them, as far as I know they don't have anything to do with the dragon-line. I thought it was very helpful that he pins the Aesar to the Sea of Azov, the Erul to the Crimea, and identifies the Vanir with other Danae venerating peoples such as the Svani. The Vanir were probably an Armenian people from the area of Lake Van, and "John" identifies the Greek Hermes as representing this group (and other Armenian peoples), and I have identified Cadmus, the prince of Phoenicia (i.e. Hermon, staff of Cadmius), as also representing a Hermes group while pointing out that Cadmus and Danaus left Egypt together.

I'm not sure what all that means, but I think it'll be fun trying to figure it out.

QUOTE
EDIT: "Eruls (or Erils or Heruls)" == EARLS perhaps??


Yeah, and maybe a connection to Herakles/Hercules as well??
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Sanders
post Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM
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Heracles might be a good jumping off point. The legends of Heracles, or Hercules, appear to closely resemble those of the biblical Samson, in fact I just did a search for "Samson" + "Hercules" and got almost four million hits. From one of them ...

QUOTE
That Samson and Heracles bear more than a superficial resemblance to each other has been recognized at least since the time of Eusebius. Nor have modern authors failed to notice the same...

...As Samson rent the lion with his bare hands, so too did Heracles overcome the Nemean lion without any weapons. As Samson was renowned for his shorning, so too was Heracles rendered bald as a result of his sojourn in the dragon's belly. As Samson was betrayed and ultimately destroyed by Delilah, so does Heracles announce in the Trachiniae that: "A woman, a female in no way like a man, she alone without even a sword has brought me down." As Samson bursts the bonds of his Philistine captors, so too does Heracles burst his shackles while in the service of the Pharaoh.

http://www.aeonjournal.com/articles/samson/samson.html

Both are closely associated with the lion, an important symbol adorning the crests of numerous families of nobility, including the crest of the UK and the royal crown itself. While Samson's father was from the Tribe of Dan of which he was considered a member, his mother was from the tribe of Judah, the symbol on who's banner was the Lion. Heracles was also born of a "mixed marraige" as it were, his father being Zeus and mother being a mortal woman. From "The Labors of Heracles:

"Heracles (or Hercules, as the Romans called him) was the son of a mortal woman named Alcmene and the supreme god Zeus. Zeus' lawful wife hated the child born out of wedlock, and sent two SNAKES to kill the baby. However, Hercules killed the snakes. Heracles became a strong warrior, but Hera struck him with madness, and he killed his own children...

When he had recovered, he consulted the oracle of Delphi, which ordered him to serve his relative Eurystheus, the king of Tiryns. [Sound a little like "Tyre"??] ...His first task was to kill the lion of nearby Nemea, a terrible animal. ...Heracles strangled it. From now on, he wore the lion's invulnerable pelt as armor."


One of the more important legends of Samson is also one that revolves around a lion that he killed (also with his bare hands), and the bees that infest the carcass. He falls in love with a Philistine woman, and poses a riddle to her countrymen, "Out of the eater, something to eat; out of the strong, something sweet." There was a lot of bloodshed over this riddle if I remember correctly, but the answer to the riddle was that the lion is slain and eaten, and bees infest the carcass and produce honey, "something sweet". (There's an entire book out there that someone wrote about this business of Samson, the lion and the honey.)

The bit about the bees immediately makes me think of the Merovingians. Childeric I of the Merovingian kings was buried with 300 small bees made of gold which were discovered in 1653 when his grave was dug up, Napoleon appropiated them and had them sewn into his robe. I just found this:

"The Merovingian kings were noted sorcerors in the manner of the Samaritan Magi, and they firmly believed in the hidden powers of the honeycomb. Because a honeycomb is naturally made up of hexagonal prisms, it was considered by philosophers to be the manifestation of divine harmony in nature."

Hexagon, hexagram, sheesh !

There is another way in which the symbol of the bee is significant - the bee society is a strictly structured heiarchy - the worker bees keep "busy as bees" making honey for their queen. That, and the "perfect" geometry of the hexagram shape result in the "bee" being a frequently reccuring theme with the Merovingians and other crests of nobility.

The connections between the Merovingians and Samson don't stop there either, Samson was said to derive his strength from his long hair, and the Merovingians were known as, what? The "long-haired monarchs". There was even a Samson I in the Merovingian line.

The Merovingians are often associated with the Templar knights, who emerged in France long after the Merovingian dynasty had ended. The Templars shared Kabbalistic traditions with the Cathars and Counts of Anjou, as far as I can tell. This possibly all got started, I mentioned, with Rabbi Makhir, Exhilar of Babylon allegedly of the Davidian line of kings who settled in Languedoc (Septemania) in the 8th century. The Merovingians also claimed Davidic descent, through Mary Magdelene, who, according to the legends repeated in "Holy Blood Holy Grail" fled from Palestine to the shores of southern France, Marseilles to be exact, right next to Lanquedoc. Rennes-le-Chateau, the church closely identified with the Magedelene heresy, the Priory of Sion and the preservation of the Merovingian line, is IN Languedoc.

But the Merovingians aren't from there. Eventually they would unite all of Gaul, but originally they were Salian Franks, who appeared on the scene in the 5th century on the French side of the Rhine in northern Gaul. Wikipedia says about the Salian Franks,

QUOTE
The Salian Franks or Salii were a subgroup of the early Franks who originally had been living ... in the northern Netherlands, where today there still is a region called Salland. The Merovingian kings, responsible for the conquest of Gaul were of Salian stock. From the 3rd century on the Salian Franks appear in the historical records as warlike Germanic people and pirates...


I have to break off onto a tangent. I keep reading about pirates! Sidon and Tyre, where the Phoenicians parked their ships, were infamous as being nests of pirates. The Vikings of course were essentially pirates. Penzance, of broadway musical "Pirates of Penzance" fame is a town at the tip of Cornwall, once known as Danmoni, or, the "mines of Dan", where the Tuatha De Danaan or the Tribe of Dan or the Danaus (if they aren't all connected) used to visit southwestern England to get tin to make their bronze with. The whole Mediterranean was rife with pirate activity throughout the Hellenic and Roman eras. Even the Templars were accused of pirating, indeed flouting the law was one of their fortes. Usury was illegal back then, but the Templars went ahead and charged interest on their banking transactions anyway, and got away with it due to the power they enjoyed.

The flag flown by pirates we all know so well is known as the Jolly Roger.



Hard to look at that without recalling the Yale institution that has given us so many US presidents and Intelligence spooks, Skull and Bones.



The Jolly Roger comes from Roger II of Sicily, the son of Adelaide and Roger I, count of Sicily. Below Roger I is decribed as a "Viking leader", indeed Wikipedia describes him as the "last great leader of the Norman conquest of southern Italy." This is circa 1055, merely ten years before William the Norman (Viking) would conquer England btw. Roger's wife, Adelaide, will go on to remarry, this time to Balwin I, king of Jeruselum. In other words, this (the legend of the Jolly Roger) is around the time of, and involves the very people associated with, the first Crusade and the creation of the Templar Knights.

Our friend John, talking about the formation of the Templars -

QUOTE
In 1112, the count of Champagne (France) had sent Hugh de Payen ("Pagan") to Jerusalem with a letter addressed to the (Merovingian?) king of Jerusalem, Baldwin I. Then, in Jerusalem itself, under the oversight of Baldwin, De Payen began to unite a small group of closely-related men in an unofficial formation of an order of Temple Knights...and the count of Champagne would himself be included in that organization.

The following year, Baldwin married the daughter (Adelaide) of a late Viking leader, Roger I (Guiscard's brother), under the condition that his son, Roger II, should become king of Jerusalem when and if Baldwin should die without a child..."

http://www.tribwatch.com/roslin.htm

(Note - I think John made a slight error here, I'm almost certain Adelaide was Roger I's first wife, not his daughter.)

Anyway, now that we know who the players are, the legend of the Jolly Roger goes like this:

QUOTE
"The origin of the Jolly Roger begins with the tale of Baldwin, as recounted by Walter Mapp, in the twelfth century AD ...

...According to the legend, this anonymous “Lord of Sidon” was in love with a “great lady of Maraclea [Marash in Cilician Armenia]”.[1] Baldwin married Arda of Armenia, from the Rubinian Royal House of Armenia.

...According to Walter Mapp, Baldwin’s wife would have died suddenly. On the night of her burial, he supposedly crept to her grave, dug up her body and violated it. Then a voice from beyond ordered him to return nine months later, when he would find a son. He returned at the appointed time, opened the grave again, and found a head on the leg bones of the skeleton: a skull and crossbones.

The same voice then apparently commanded him to “guard it well, for it would be the giver of all good things”, and so he carried it away with him. It became his protecting genius, and he was able to defeat his enemies by merely showing them the magic head. In due course, it passed to the possession of the order.

...In 1113, Baldwin then married Adelaide del Vasto. Under the marriage agreement, if Baldwin and Adelaide had no children, the heir to the kingdom of Jerusalem would be Roger II of Sicily, Adelaide’s son by her first husband Roger I Guiscard. This Roger was to become the “Jolly Roger” of history, having flown the skull and crossbones on his ships.[4]"
http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/book/wars_of_roses.html

I have read that Roger II was himself a Templar Knight, but I am doubtful. Nonetheless, he was certainly "in the family". In trying to sort out these family connections, I ran across this description of Roger II's uncle, Robert Guiscard, one of the first crusaders, attributed to Anna Comnena the daughter of Alexius I (Alexius was the Byzantine Emperor who's troubles provided the impetus for the 1st crusade):

"This Robert was Norman by descent, ... in temper tyrannical, in mind most cunning, brave in action, very clever in attacking the wealth and substance of magnates, most obstinate in achievement, for he did not allow any obstacle to prevent his executing his desire. His stature was so lofty that he surpassed even the tallest, his complexion was ruddy, his hair flaxen, his shoulders were broad, his eyes all but emitted sparks of fire, and in frame he was well-built ... this man's cry it is said to have put thousands to flight. Thus equipped by fortune, physique and character, he was naturally indomitable, and subordinate to no one in the world."


So, how shall I neatly tie up this web of Templars, Skulls, Bones, Vikings and Scottish roots that I've spewed so haphazardly?

I don't like picking on Scotland, I hear it's nice and I've never met a Scot I didn't like, and the English Plantagenets et al that the Bruces and other Scots fought bravely against were a far more oppressive lot and even more tied into the dragon blood-line ... still, given the area's connection to ancient Greece and Scythia, to Egypt, and to the Templars and families like the Sinclairs, I think it holds special relevance.

Allow me to quote John of 'Laden Gog' one more time -

QUOTE
A common line explaining the flag's origin is that clouds in the sky formed an X-shape during a certain battle, wherefore, we are to believe, someone recognized it as the Apostle Andrew's cross upon which he was killed. That sounds like a load of potatoes to me, to disguise the reality.

If indeed the Rosicrucian cross represented the crossed bones of the pirate flag, then the rose that Rosicrucians place at the center of their cross could represent the skull of the pirate flag...where the skull represents their hidden/occult mysteries. Note that "school" is similar to "skull" and that Rosicrucians called themselves the "Invisible College" prior to usurping most of our schools. Even the Skull and Bones society in the United States is based at Yale. Note also that in colleges to this day there are "degrees," evoking the degrees of Freemasonry. And the odd black hat with the flat, square top that proud faces wear on graduation day represents a mortar board i.e. the mortar board used by stone masons. America is much controlled by this cult.

While the modern cross of Rosicrucians is not like the Scottish Cross in the form of a X -- called a "saltire" -- but is instead upright like the cross of Christ, the early Rosicrucian cross was a saltire, as you can see from the 16th-century Andreae Family Crest (Johan Andreae was a leading Rosicrucian).




And from the same chapter (order reversed),

QUOTE
From 1307, when the Templars in France were being chased out of the country by a major persecution, many took shelter in Scotland under the wings of the Roslin Sinclairs...and the Scottish king, Robert I de Bruce, welcomed the knights with open arms. The first Grand Master of Masonry in Scotland was (another) William Sinclair of Roslin Castle. His descendant, another William Sinclair yet, laid (in 1446) the foundations of the esoteric cathedral, Rosslyn Chapel (on the same hill as Roslin Castle). This cathedral, every square inch of which is laced with carvings, was built in French style, suggesting that it was indeed built by the French Templars who had escaped to Scotland.

One particular design on the walls of the Rosslyn Chapel matches perfectly with Freemasonry's first-degree ceremony, still practiced today, in which a blindfolded initiate stands between two pillars of Solomon's Temple with a noose dangling from neck, placed there by a Templar (see website above). This carving is what so concretely ties the Roslin Templars with the Freemasons of later years!

...The skull-and-crossbone symbol used by the Templars, also found in the Chapel, is said to represent the bones of Mary Magdalene...whom the Templars actually possessed and worshipped, or so we are to believe. But the facts that we know are these: 1) the skull-and-crossbone symbol was a pirate-flag symbol; 2) the Rus Vikings were pirates while pagans, especially between 800-1050; 3) the Templars reverted to piracy on the high seas after losing Jerusalem for good; 4) the crossbones form an X-shape, even as does the Scottish flag.

I suspect the Scottish flag to be the old pirate flag in disguise, but without the skull. In fact, the Scottish flag, called "Andrew's Cross," dates back to the 12th century, just one century after the first Templars.




This is the family crest of Isaac Newton, who was an Englishman of alleged noble birth and a leading Rosicrucian, and it's Saltire cross of bones -




Personally, this stuff just floors me.

.........................................
I'll try to stay more on topic next post - and continue with talk of the Merovingian kings.

(P.S., thank you Laden-Gog "John", if you stumble onto this, I hope you don't mind my quoting you so often - you just seem to always have the answers to my questions. thumbsup.gif )
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Sanders
post Aug 2 2008, 01:27 PM
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I wanted to get back on to the topic of the Merovingians, an important link in the chain, but to be honest they are a hard sea-beast to wrestle. Meanwhile, I had an interesting discussion over at Ocean Flow's board that is relevant to this topic (which btw led me to an important - IMO - clue as to the roots of the Merovingians).

A poster there and I were discussing the Nephilim, the Titans, and the Anunnaki, and the correllations between the three. During the course of that discussion, I realised that I misrepresented the Nephilim here in this thread.

In my own defense, the Nephilim are often equated in writings with the Anunnaki (the Sumerian Pantheon of gods who were the offspring of Anu and Ki), or described as the "fallen angels" - but they were in fact the offspring of the fallen angels.

The intriquing thing is, in Greek Mythology there were 12 (12!?? Again!????) secondary gods, the sons and daughters of Uranus (6 of each), who were vanquished for a time in the underworld by their father. Chronos (Saturn) successfully challenged his father (cut off his genitals), and ursurped the throne. In Sumerian legends, the supreme patriarchal god was Anu (sky), who, by his sister Ki (earth) begot the Anunnaki, the gods on earth - actually they were hundreds in number, distributed on earth and in the underworld. The Nephilim were the descendents of fallen angels, and are described as having been "giants".

Sons & daughters of gods, distributed on earth and/or in the underworld; Nephilim, Anunnaki & Titans all "giants" ... the similarities are too conspicuous to ignore.

This "dragon blood-line" discussion doesn't have a snowball's chance in h@ll of yielding its secrets if we don't dive into the Greek myths, IMO, indeed I think the Greek myths were a sort of code - a historical record to the elite, while being both a source of entertainment and a foundation for religion to the masses. Much of the writings of Lagon-Gog "John" are all basically an effort to de-code the Greek myths to uncover who the rulers of our world are, where they came from, and their movements throughout (and influence upon) history. And as all "dragons" seem to have slithered through Greece, I better bone-up. Unfortunately I was mostly asleep when they talked about Greek Mythology in school. I had no idea that the secrets to how our world came to be constructed as it is are hidden there in those myths.

Maybe I should just post some of the correspondence ...

In quotes, but my own words:

"You are correct, the Nephilim were the descendents of fallen angels. They were said to be giants, but the word actually means twisted, corrupted. The Anunnaki on the other hand were bona-fide gods, the descendents of Anu (sky) and his sister Ki. They were "distributed through the Earth and the Underworld" (Wikipedia), further alluding to them being fallen angels and an analogy of the Titans, who Uranus originally banished to the underworld. All of this seems to justify a direct correllation between the Anannaki and the Titans, but not necessarily between they and the Nephilim, despite the Nephilim being the "Giants" and as the word "Titan" would suggest."

"By the way, I just noticed that Uranus looks like a compound of Ur (the Sumerian city of Abraham's birth) and Anu. Coincidence?"

"If the Nephilim are the Giant offspring of the fallen angels, then no, they would be a mixed race - the offspring of male Gods and the daughters of men. The Titans, while evoking the meaning of Giant and, being the offspring of Uranus and Gaia as the Anunnaki are the offspring of Anu and Ki, are gods, or to be more specific, the sons (and daughters) of gods. Here, this is a bit sloppy, I made it up just for myself so I could keep track -



The Titans on the left are the male 6, on the blue background (Chronos, Coeus, Hyperion, Oceanus, Japetus, and Crius). The ones on the right on the pink background are the female 6 (Rhea, Phoebe, Themis, Theia, Menmosyne, and Tethys). All mate with their siblings exept Crius, and Menmosyne who mates with Zeus. (I added Isis as a daughter of Hermes and Osiris as being Dionysis just as a reminder to myself - Isis and Osiris are obviously Egyptian dieties, but there is a theory that this is where they fit into the Greek Pantheon.)

The Nephilim, on the other hand, appear to be the offspring of humans and gods (fallen angels?), despite their being often associated or equated with the Anunnaki.

Genesis 6:1–4

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose. Then the LORD said: “My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years.” At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were heroes of old, men of renown.[1]"


This may be the most telling,


QUOTE
The Nephilim are mysterious supermen from ancient times, men of name, who lived before and after the flood of Noah. Before the flood they are mentioned in Gen 6:4, and after in Num 13:33. The question this raises is: who are the Nephilim and how did they survive the flood? If Noah, his sons or any of their wives had been Nephilim, the text would have certainly mentioned it, and the Nephilim would have been treated more positively.

Genesis 6 tells us that the Nephilim were fathered by 'sons of Elohim' with human females. The phrase 'sons of God' may indicate angelic creatures but also the members of some very strong race. It seems that Nephilim were generated from human stock, not just once but often and separately, and not only before the flood but also after....It is not clear where the name Nephilim comes from. There are a few possibilities, and scholars argue about the likelihood of each of them. First of all, the word nephilim is a plural and the single form, npl (npl), does not occur in the Bible (which by itself is not at all unusual). In another context, however, the word npl (nepel 1392a) means untimely birth or abortion. It comes from the verb npl (napal 1392), fall, lie down, be cast down, fail. The plural word Nephilim means 'fallen ones,' mostly by the sword, and occurs in Josh 8:25, Jud 20:46, 2 Ki 25:11, Psalm 145:14, Jer 39:9, 52:15, Eze 32:22 and 24.

TWOTOT mentions the above similarity with some disdain and pronounces a much more likely etymology based on words such as pala (pala 1768), be marvelous, wonderful, or pala (pala 1772), be distinct, marked out, or palal (palal 1776), intervene, interpose, pray. This latter verb is one of many for prayer and other interventions, and in search of origins of this particular verb some scholars end up right back at npl (napal 1393), to fall (i.e. to prostrate oneself). This becomes especially compelling when we remember that the name Rephaim has to do with a verb that means to sink, let drop, fall slack.

The Nephilim are the Fallen Ones, and the Marvelous Ones.

BDB adds a very interesting note, although, in its signature grumpy style, pronounces any etymology 'dubious' and 'precarious' : The words for Nephilim, Nephilim and Nephilim bear a striking resemblance to Nephila, the Aramaic word for Orion
The Nephilim are the Orionids.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Nephilim.html


Well, I have read that the 3 stars in Orion's belt are represented in the 3 Pyramids at Giza, and that those pyramids mirror the 3 peaks of Mt. Hermon, so my curiousity is piqued to say the least.

Furthermore, in legend the Greek Orion raped Merope, from who the name of the first Merovingian king Merovee supposedly derives (!).
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Sanders
post Aug 2 2008, 02:00 PM
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That last post might have been a little hard to digest, but it's really simple. The legends of the "fallen angels" and/or Nephilim, the Anannuki (Sumerian Pantheon) and the Titans (Greek equivilent of the fallen angels and the Anunnaki) are all just re-packaged versions of the same myth. I don't think any of this is based on reality, nor do I think that aliens from planet X (Nibiru), or gods, came down to earth and mated with our females to produce a race of giants. But I do entertain the notion that royal bloodlines would like to think that they are descended from semi-gods.

Forgive me for jumping around, but I just stumbled onto something. The Templar Knights, I thought, fled to two locations (Scotland and Spain/Portugal) in the 14th century as Philip IV of France was trying to kill them all to get out of debt. I just read that they fled, in fact, to three locations ... the third being an area in the center of Europe that would later be known as ... Switzerland.

The Swiss flag -




B.I.S.,Bank for International Settlements. Top dog in the Central Banking Heirarchy, is in Switzerland of course. A country founded by Templars?
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Omega892R09
post Aug 3 2008, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 31 2008, 05:00 PM) *
Forgive me for jumping around, but I just stumbled onto something. The Templar Knights, I thought, fled to two locations (Scotland and Spain/Portugal) in the 14th century as Philip IV of France was trying to kill them all to get out of debt. I just read that they fled, in fact, to three locations ... the third being an area in the center of Europe that would later be known as ... Switzerland.

You really must read Jim Marrs' 'Rule by Secrecy' if you haven't already and look out 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln for both of these sources go into the Cathars and the crusade against them by Pope Innocent III after Phillip II of France had declared them heretics (more for fear of their power on his southern boundary than any true belief). Once the Cathars had been crushed and dispersed it didn’t take long for Papal attention to turn to the Templars.

It would seem that it was knowledge they had about the circumstances surrounding the supposed non death of Jesus and the non-resurrection, coupled with his liaison with Mary Magdelene and the untruths weaved around this by those who formed the early Christian Church that was so explosively dangerous. Many consider that the Cathars and Templars had grown strong by means of exploiting the fears of the church. Then other political mechanisms came into play that began their persecutions - this being the true origins of the Inquisition.

To think I was in Languadoc in 1988 going with the family on a coach trip from Cape D'Agde to Andorra right through the heart of Cathar country and knowing nothing about the history of the place. Tch! I recall stopping at one of the mountain fortress towns, Circulades. Don't know which one but now have a hunt on for the pictures I took.

See:

http://www.languedoc-france.info/030600_circulades.htm

and

http://www.languedoc-france.info/03_see.htm

We turned off the main A61 at about Carcassone IIRC

See:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=...=1&ct=image

One can pick up snippets on the Scots and Irish (Delradia etc) in unexpected places and N.A.M. Rodger's 'The Safeguard of the Sea: A Naval History of Britain, 660-1649' is a mine of info’ on the complex maritime history of that area involving Norse raiders and the alliances formed and broken. Will provide grist to your mill I am sure.

As for Switzerland - there is another saga.

Edit: trouble with char' set.

This post has been edited by Omega892R09: Aug 3 2008, 12:35 PM
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Sanders
post Aug 3 2008, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Omega892R09 @ Aug 7 2008, 11:32 AM) *
You really must read Jim Marrs' 'Rule by Secrecy' ... <s>


Yes, I really must read more books. I'm in Japan, a good hour from the closest decent book store that might have a snowball's chance in h@ll of having any of Marrs' books. I used to be an avid reader of books - but these days I must admit that I get most of my info from the web.

Anyway, it appears that the Templar-Swiss connection is not imagined. Found this today ...
http://www.templarhistory.com/switzerland.html

Seems like a pretty balanced and well informed source. And like I said, it would make perfect sense that the Bank for International Settlements would be landed in a country connected to the original bankers. Something else that site revealed to me - the oddly close relationship between the Templars, who were sort of (IMO) fake-Christian Kabbalists, and the Roman Church, who were (in my opinion) a different version of Christianity (...somewhat of their own making, colored by the solar-cult Atonists of Egypt?). This always bothered me, the strong Papal/Templar alliance seemed odd to me given the ideological differences, and it has bothered me more and more the further I dug into this stuff. The aforementioned site provided the answer. St. Bernard of Clairvaux, who was integral in establishing the order, also used his influence to get Innocent II appointed pope. (!)

QUOTE
...As Bernard of Clairvaux was to do on many occasions during his life, he had 'stitched up' the papacy, ensuring that the Templars would not simply exist, but that they would be headed by factions drawn directly from Champagne and from his own family. The rest, as they say, is history. When Honorius II died in 1130, against all the odds, Bernard managed to have Gregorio Papereschi, a man with a dubious claim at best, elected as Pope Innocent II. This Pope, and his successors, was deep in debt to Bernard, who left no stone unturned to have more and more papal declarations made to consolidate and promote the Templar Order.

http://www.templarhistory.com/troyes.html

So the Crusades were also sort of an "inside job" rolleyes.gif tongue.gif wink.gif .

QUOTE
...and N.A.M. Rodger's 'The Safeguard of the Sea: A Naval History of Britain, 660-1649' is a mine of info’ on the complex maritime history of that area involving Norse raiders and the alliances formed and broken. Will provide grist to your mill I am sure.


Now that sounds like something I'd like to read! yes1.gif
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Sanders
post Aug 6 2008, 04:28 PM
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My intention was to identify the Merovingians, and tie them securely to the Vikings, and to the Cathars and Templar knights that followed them in France. From there it's easy - Templars, Counts of Anjou and Vikings combine both forces and bloodlines, and go on to conquer England and invade the holy land, botta-bing-botta-boom the rest is more or less "history".

I probably could do it, but it would be sloppy and half of it might be wrong ... I still have a lot of reading to do. But the dots are connecting so rapidly that I can't contain my excitement or hold back from posting something.

I re-read some things I had posted over at Oceans Flow's forum a year ago on this topic, and was almost embarassed by my own naivety. But at the same time, I read so much bunk that passes for accepted wisdom, that I figure what the h@ll. If the reader will only follow me in my quest for answers and forgive me for getting some things wrong sometimes - and admitting my mistakes and correcting them as I go as I try to figure this stuff out - I would be grateful.

A good example is my torturous attempt (all documented here in this thread LoL) to track the Milesian and Pict invasions into Scotland ... none of which was in vain. I always knew that Scotland was important, if only because it was one of the places the Templars fled when Philip IV of France started burning them at the stake, and because Roslin Chapel was built there by a Sinclair - family of Rollo the Viking, who's descendent William Duke of Normandy conquered England. There's at least one more item that underlines Scotland's importance during this period in history, that the Bruces (e.i. Robert the Bruce) were probably of Languedoc roots, Languedoc as in Rabbi Makhir, patriarch of the Cathars and Dukes of Anjou ...


http://www.houseofnames.com/coatofarms_det...d=&s=brusse

(This information about the Bruces I picked up from "John" of the Ladon-Gog chapters)
http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm

Above is the French 'Brusse' crest, not at all (I'm joking) like the Scottish 'Bruce' crest:



The whole Blue (lion/dragon-looking griffin like thing) on silver or gold / combined with or in place of the Red and White cross thing is a peculiarly Templar related theme. I will dive into that later.

Anyway, I return to my attempt to track the Picts and Milesians. When discussing the Picts, we connected them solidly to the Dactyls, the Kabeiri and the Corybante (who may all be essentially the same), who, according to most sources, hail from Phrygia, the home of the Cybele/Attis myth. But one source I posted located the Corybante as being from Colchis, in the Caucasus. At the time I didn't pay much attention to that anomoly, sheesh, there are so many differing accounts when you try to peer back thousands of years. But I should have been more discerning.

There was a kingdom right next to Colchis, in the Caucasus (in between the Black and Caspian Seas - modern Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia - not far from Chechnya - anyway still one of the most volitile areas of the world and the "gate" between the Middle East and ancient Scytha btw)...


(map courtesy of John)


... called, Iberia. Well bust my frikken buttons !!!


Do you see how significant this is??? IBERIA is what they call Spain and Portugal, where the Milesians settled for a while before invading Scotland.

I kept going back and forth, quoting various sources who claimed both Scythian and Phrygian roots for the Picts ... and here is the ancient Caucasian kingdom of Iberia smack-dab in-between them! doh1.gif How much you want to bet the Picts and the Milesians are related (separated more by time than by origins ... note that both are sometimes accused of being Celts, albeit pre-dating the official Celtic invasions), and got to Scotland via Spain/Portugal (Iberia)?

I used to think that Mil and his wife Scota, who's children are credited with the Milesian invasion into Scotland, were real people ... but it has been pointed out that 3 of their children, Eremon, Eber and Ir, may simply represent Phoenician-Greeks (Hermes peoples), Hebrews (Eber), and a Mesopotamian faction (Ir - Ur). Remember that their father was Mil of royal Scythian roots, and that their mother Scota was an Egyptian princess (even though Scota is not an Egyptian name) - this all points seductively to this story being simply a legend representing an invasion by a group of these Black Sea-based allies, whose roots are described (in code) as Egyptian and Scythian - which, btw, "feels" right to me. This is also starting to look not unlike the Viking migration to Scandinavia as well - a mix of the Aesar, Eruls and the Vanir (Danir?) from the areas around lake Azov, the Crimea, and lake Van respectively ... (all those peoples being once refugees of the Trojan war - and did you catch that most of the original Templars were from an area in France known once as Troyes!???).

In tracing the Merovingians (after much meandering LoL), I found myself looking for where Noah's ark came to rest. (Don't ask me why.) The place is called Mt. Ararat, as identified in scriptures. I'm not implying that there really was an ark, but I just wanted to know where this Mt. Ararat was. ...It's in modern-day north-eastern Turkey, centrally located between the Caucasus, Phrygia (and the other Anatolian kingdoms that will come up) and Mesopotamia (& Phoenicia for that matter). This made me more interested in the biblical genealogy from Noah - maybe I should post it, if only for reference.

This chart showing Noah and his descendents is not comprehensive, is only meant to be a guide. I've taken out a few generations between Eber (from where we get the word Hebrew) and Nahor, Abraham's biblical grandfather.



This article discusses some of these offspring and the peoples who are said to descend from them -
http://latter-rain.com/ot/gene.htm

Japheth and his descendents are given credit for siring a disproportionately large number of peoples, all throughout Europe and parts of Asia. Incredibly his name is very close to "Japetus", one of the 12 Titans of Greek mythology who I pointed out a couple of posts up. The similarlity between Japheth and Japetus doesn't end with the spelling however, Japetus' son Prometheus fathered mankind according to Greek legend - and "stole fire" from Zeus and gave it to man. Ever been to Rockefeller Center ? Prometheus guards the skating rink. http://manhattan.about.com/od/historyandla...togallery_4.htm

I find it uncanny that the name of the woodcarver in the Disney classic Pinocchio, who makes a wooden puppet which comes alive, is "Geppetto". (This is the oldest myth in the book, folks. )

More related to the Merovingians/Vikings is the legend of Manus - from where we get the word "man". Any semantic similarity to Japeth/Japetus/(Gepetto) is absent, but the story is essentially the same. The Germanic diety Manus is duplicated in the Indo/Iranian Manus, and the Irish Manannan mac Lir. Manus gave rise to man in these cultures, and Tacitus describes 3 tribes as the descendents of the Germanic Manus:

Herminones (Irminones) - settled the Elbe (modern north-Germany and Checkoslavakia - expanded into Bavaria, Bohemia & Swabia (German speaking Switzerland was once part of Swabia).

Ingvaeones (Ing) - Denmark and the shores of the North Sea down to Frijia (north Holland).

Istvaeones (and other variations including Thracones) - Holland, Belgium and northern France.

That's about as far as I can proceed at the moment ... (other than to point out the term "Herminonoes" certainly looks connected to "Hermes").
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Sanders
post Aug 13 2008, 08:12 PM
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Not sure if anyone who has been following this thread has noticed, but as I've been trying to trace certain peoples, the Milesians, the Picts, the Vikings, etc., evidence keeps popping up pointing to the Caucasus, or areas nearby. (Caucasus=Georgia, Ossetia, etc.)

Hey, I had no idea! I was rooting for Sumer as the root of this dragon-line (it still might be, but the roots have become very convoluted to say the least).

I will be quoting "John", author of 'Ladon/Gog' in this post. "Gog" of Ladon-Gog is 'Gog' of end-times', of "Gog & Magog" fame (the end-times being a concept which I personally do not subscribe to). Regardless of religious prophesy however, Magog was a biblical son of Japheth.

These passages, from Answers.com give a cursory description -

QUOTE
"The tradition of Gog and Magog begins in the Hebrew Bible with the reference to Magog, son of Japheth, in the Book of Genesis and continues in cryptic prophecies in the War of Ezekiel 38-39, which are echoed in the Book of Revelation and in the Qur'an. The tradition is very ambiguous with even the very nature of the entities differing between sources. They are variously presented as men, supernatural beings (giants or demons), national groups, or lands. Gog and Magog occur widely in mythology and folklore."

..."The Interlinear Bible (Hebrew - Greek - English) states 2. as: "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; and prophesy concerning him."[5]"


The above "Rosh" is believed to be connected with the origins of Russia, Meshech that of Moscow, and Tubal that of a couple of possible places, one being Tblisi, the capital of moderm Georgia. (Hopefully later I'll get into the theory that the "Rose-line" has nothing to do with a rose, but rather with the "Rus".)

QUOTE
After the Soviet Union restructured in the Gorbachev-Reagan era, the Russian pronunciation of the capital of Georgia - Tiflis - was dropped, and the nation took back its ancestral name of Tblisi. In the Georgian dialect, the ethnic suffix isi means "the land of." Furthermore, in that same ancient dialect, which is unique among linguistic groups, the consonants T and B are specifically separated by a gutteral U sound.

The actual verbalization of Tblisi is "Tuh-ooh-ball-ee-see." In short, the name literally translates as "the land of Tubal." This is the capital of the modern republic of Georgia.
Further research showed that the other group that settled in the same region thousands of years ago were known as the Meskhet - or the Meskhetians. During the Russian domination of Georgia in the 19th century, Moscow named their military headquarters that was located adjacent to the Georgian capital Mtzkheta. Again, by removing the suffix, we see the name Meschech has survived in Georgian and Russian.

Scholars have long known that the Georgians are descended from the Iberians which have a presence in the modern era in several regions including the South of Spain. If you wish to take a commercial flight in that area of the world, for example, you'll probably buy a ticket on Iberian Airlines. A recent scholarly treatment on the origin of Georgia that was published by Oxford University Press states "The Jews of ancient Georgia were doubtless aware of the Jewish identification of Iberia with the Tubal of the Old Testament" (Georgia In Antiquity, David Braund, 1994).

Josephus tells us the Iberi were descended from a son of Japheth - whose son was named Magog. It's fascinating to realize that the name Gog is widely widely utilized in Georgian - albeit under a more affectionate fashion that is known as Gogi. I've eaten at a Russian restaurant here in Southern Oregon that is owned by a Georgian with that very name. Indeed, we recently learned from a Christian missionary that has spent 10 years in Georgia that the Georgian pronunciation of Gog and Magog is Gogi da Magogi. In short, Gog is Georgia.

http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-21.html

Given that the original Gogi peoples were rumored to have been fair-haired giants (and no, it is no accident that Caucasus and Caucasian are practically the same word), maybe the roots of some other words can be traced to Gog, such as the Gorgons, the three sisters of Greek legend with live snakes for hair. ...Or "Gorgeous", or "Gargantuan".

I remembered that the most famous of these Gorgon sisters was Medusa - and knowing that Persians (Iranians) allied with Chaldeans (Chaldea of Messopotamia, birthplace of the Kabbalah cult) established the kingdom of Medes south of the Caucasus (which would spread all the way to Pakistan in the 6th century BC), I wondered if Medusa didn't represent these Persian Medians. Especially since the Scythians are rooted partially in the Iranian "Saka". What'ya think?

"John" thinks so too. I am doubly pleased that I found the relevant passage in a chapter titled "The Hercules Circle of Gogi" - if you remember, we discussed the similarities between the myths of the Greek Hercules and the biblical Samson (full of lions, snakes and bees), and how pointers to this Hercules/Samson story pop up often among the Merovingian kings of France. John makes for tough reading, but this passage is well worth the effort. He mentions the Parthians, who were a people (probably an offshoot of the Scythians) rooted east of the Caspian Sea, who's kingdom at its pinnacle (1st century BC) covered the same general swath of territory as the earlier kingdom of Medes. Hence, the Parthians replaced the Medians, or in Greek code as John reveals below, Perseus kills Medusa. Note also, that Perseus was born of Zeus and a mortal woman "Danae" (there's that "Dan" term again).

QUOTE
The problem in the historical records is that Jews may call a people the "Tomato Pickers," while the Assyrians register them as "Cabbage Lovers," while the Greeks may call them "Skinny Guys." A further problem is that historians vary/conflict when translating the names of people groups. But the tracks found in mythology seem to be quite dependable, or at least helpful when the issues cannot be decided otherwise. Whereas the Gogi are difficult to find let alone trace by historical records, myth makes the task much simpler when one knows terms by which they were depicted. And so the myths, meant to conceal the Gogi, actually help us to trace them.

We find that Hercules was portrayed mating with the snake-woman (i.e. half snake) to produce three sons (i.e. main branches) from her belly at once, one of which was "Scythes." They were born just north of the Crimea, wherefore the myth does not intend to record the beginnings of the Iranian Saka (regarded as early Scythians), but only the beginnings of the western Scythians, those who formed in the cradle of the Russian peoples...who were called "Royal Scythians" by Herodotus.

The snake-woman, I conjecture, depicts a peoples belonging to the dragon bloodline, but more particularly to the peoples who extended from the Cecrops bloodline, for Cecrops was himself depicted as half snake. The Parthians/Gorgons are easily identified as being the root of that snake line, and Hercules depicts a major Gorgon bloodline, for his ancestor, Perseus, killed the Gorgon Medusa and then gave birth to "Gorgophone"...an illustration quite apparently of two Gorgon peoples that had been in mortal conflict.

Not only do the particular terms, Perseus and Medusa, evoke the Parthians and Medes (wherefore we can see that mythology is an attempt to put historical events into codewords), but Perseus mated with Andro<I>meda ("men of Media"?) when producing Gorgophone. The easy conclusion is that Hercules was a Gorgophone as opposed to a Medusa Gorgon.

http://www.tribwatch.com/hercules.htm

[EDIT: I just figured out that the name of the kingdom of Medes comes from their (mythical) founder, Medus, king of Colchis (modern Georgia), daughter of Medea, both of "Golden Fleece" fame (!)]

Another of the Gorgon sisters was "Stheino". John reminds us that -

QUOTE
Eurystheus (the king who sent Hercules to free Geryon's cattle) was made the son of "Sthenelus" (king of Mycenae). It's first of all interesting that one of the Gorgon Medusa's two sisters was labeled "Stheino." While Perseus and his mate Andromeda gave birth to "Gorgophones"..., the same couple also gave birth to Sthenelus...indicating that he was a distinct branch of Gorgons...

This is important in this story because Sthenelus was also made (by myth writers) a king of Liguria, located in north Italy...

..."Liguria" evokes "Lyko" and variations thereof that mean "wolf" and pertain to Apollo. The connection of Liguria to Apollo is supported by this statement: "[The Ligurians] honored the Greek tradition of free state formations and preserved the ancient Greek religious rites associated with the goddess Artemis." Artemis was Apollo's twin sister.

The throne of Artemis was covered in wolf's hide, and because she and the dog were fused, as well as for other reasons, Artemis was from the same Verkana bloodline as Hecate and the Gorgon Medusa. The people of Verkhana/Hyrcania (modern Gorgan) [northern Iran, southwest coast of the Caspian Sea] were called "Hyrkanoi," "the wolves." Therefore, add Liguria to the long list of wolf peoples, and thank the myth writers for exposing the tracks of the Draco Line by their very use of secret codes...

To the end that Apollo and Artemis depicted the Hyperboreans (no doubt the Gogi), we find that the son of Sthenelus was tagged, "Cygnus/Cycnus." He too was made a king in Liguria. Behold. In Ovid's Metamorphoses, we find this concerning Cycnus:

"Now, though he had ruled the people and great cities of Liguria, he left his kingdom, and filled Eridanusユs green banks and streams...As he did so his voice vanished and white feathers hid his hair, his long neck stretched out from his body...So Cycnus became a new kind of bird, the swan."

...Moreover, Apollo's mother Leto (i.e. Lydia) was also depicted as a swan, suggesting that the Ligurians were, as were the Etruscans, from Lydia.


Lydia, btw, was in western Anatolia, west of Phrygia.



Not only is Lydia identified as the biblical "Gog" in numerous ancient texts, it is close to Troy. (Ever since I learned that the first Templars came from Champagne which was formerly called Troyes, not to mention that many of these Viking & Germanic tribes appear to share Troy as a geographical common denominator, my ears perk up whenever that name comes up.)

Not much is mentioned in the myths about the third Gorgon sister, Euryale, but the word meant "far-roaming" and evokes Europe, as does Cadmus and Phoenix's sister Europa, and this may be a branch of Gogi peoples who headed off toward Europe never to be heard from (in ancient Greece) again. (Just a guess.)

However it is the Gorgon sister Stheino and her connection to Liguria and by extension "wolf" terms such as Lykos and Lycanthrope (werewolf), totally expected as the Gogi are all represented through association with the twins Apollo and Artemis as being "wolf" peoples, which has piqued my interest. But there's more.

Liguria also evokes the Lugii. You may remember that with John's help we traced the Pollack family (which carry the Boar of Artemis on their crest as do the Bush's and the Veres) through Lugia (central and southern regions of modern Poland) earlier in the thread. Wikipedia: Lugii shows a little map, the Lugii occupied the green area (that's the Black Sea in the lower right btw) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii

Check out the other terms offered for the Lugii - they include "Lygians". Does that not tell us that John is on to something when he connects Stheino to not only a "wolf" peoples who begot the Ligurians and Lugians, but also to Lydia!?? And even as we continue to trace Scottish invading peoples (Milesians, Picts) to the Black Sea (land of Appolo and Artemis), we find that there was a Lugii tribe in northern Scotland!

http://www.babylon.com/definition/Lugii/English

The Scottish Lugii lived in Sutherland, and knowing that one of the most influential people in the world is Peter Sutherland (member of the Peter G. Peterson Institute for International Economics, regular attendee to Bilderberg meetings, etc.), I just had to look up the Sutherland coat of arms. It is unspectacular, with a lion and some stars ... but check out the Sutherland Clan Badge.



That sure looks like a wolf to me!

Now check this out. This is a 2nd century map of Germania.



You can find Lugi Omani and Lugi Buri toward the right ... but look at some of these other terms. Sarmatia on the far right (!). Sarmatia, same spelling, was a part of Scythia, above the Black Sea (often Sarmatian roots are attributed to the Vikings). The connections between Gallia (far left) and the Galli priests of the cult of Kybelle discussed earlier, or Pannonia and Pan, the half-goat son of Hermes (which may even signify the Phoenicians themselves), are both obvious and a whole other can of worms. But look a little down and to the left of center ... below Danduti (yet another "Dan" term") - and find "Marvingi". How much you want to bet here lived the future kings of France, the Merovingians?

If the similarities between names doesn't convince, look at the people just south of the Marvingi - Curiones. Does this not evoke the Curetes of Greece and the Cruithne of Scotland, both closely associated with the cult of Kybele and connected to the Black Sea via the Calydonian Boar, and to Colchis (modern Georgia) via the Corybantes, who they are all suspected of being synonomous with??? (See earlier posts regarding the Picts.)

Maybe I should remind that the Boar is prominent on the de Vere crest (and Bush crest for that matter), as it is on the crest of Pollock who John connects to the Lugii. These "boar" clans represent a major branch of the dragon blood line, as Nicholas de Vere (von Drakenberg) will tell you.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopol...agoncourt03.htm

QUOTE
The House of Vere are descended in various lines from the dynasty of Meroveus and consequently share this Germanic Royal Blood Tradition. Prince Milo de Vere - married to Charlemagneユs sister - and as Head of the Imperial House and Chief of the Imperial Army, was himself an Imperial Prince.

From "official de Vere family records"
* 760+ AD Milo de Ver: Duke of Aungiers and Duke Leader of Great King Charles house and army (son of Rainfroi: de Ver) - Milo married Bertbelle, sister of Great King Charles Charlemagne.

* 800+ AD Rouland de Ver (son of Milo and Bertbelle): Held the titles of the "Earl of Palatine", "Earl of Maunce and Bleuys", "Governor of the Marches of Brittany" however, he was killed by warring Pagans at Rumcidevale. 800+ AD Baldwine de Ver: became "Duke of Maunce" after his brother Roulandユs death.

* 800+ AD Milo de Ver II (ii) (son of Milo) Held title of the "Earl of Genney or Gisney or GHISNES" given to him by Charlemagne, he married Avelina the daughter to the "Earl of Nauntes" and they had two sons, Nicasius and Milo(iii).

* 800+ AD Nicasius de Vere : married Agathe daughter to the "Earl of Champaign" and gave issue to Otho "de Vere" who later became the "Earl of Genney".

* 800+ AD Otho de Vere: married Constance daughter to the "Lord of the Charters" and gave issue to Amelius de Ver.


* Amelius("Aldolphus") de Vere: Earl of Genny (GHISNES or GUISNES) married Helena daughter of Earl Bloys

* His son:
Gallus/Guillaume (Guy Blanc Barbe) de Vere: Earl of Genny (GHISNES - GUISNES) married Gerbrudis daughter to the Lord Cleremont. (Gallus - Guillaume went with Aubri and the King to England). Descent to Godfroi de Bouillon and the Counts of Boulogne.

* Manasses de Vere: Earl of Genny married Petronilla daughter of the Earl of Boleine.

* Their son:
Alphonsus (Alberic) I de Vere: Earl of Genney, Count of Ghesnes (Genny, alias Gisney or GHISNES or GUISNES) married Katarine daughter to Arnalde Earl of Flaunders. And was a "Counsellor (earl of the Witan) to Edward the Confessor".

http://www.geocities.com/newworldorder_themovie/DragonsRant




So I keep picking at this and continue trying to read John's amazing (and very difficult to follow) book and we are getting closer to figuring out exactly what this "dragon blood-line" is. But I want to take a more general, overall, and less detailed look at this for a second.

We know that the Templars fled to Spain/Portugal and Scotland when Philip IV started arresting them. I have read that about 2000 Templar knights excaped the purge. We have learned that the ancient Scots, Irish and Spanish owe their heritage in great part (thankfully or not) to invasions by peoples rooted around the Black Sea - either "Royal Scythians", or Iberians from the Caucasus, or followers of the cult of Kybelle who occupied Caldon in Greece for a time, probably also rooted in the Caucasus (Colchis) and Phrygia. Previously you have an invasion by the Tuatha De Danaan, from Greece or thereabouts. I will show soon that the Merovingians, the Vikings, and the Templar knights themselves share common or similar roots, I've already pointed out that the Vikings, according to some sources, derive from three tribes, rooted in the Crimea, Lake Azov and probably Lake Van - these are all areas in and around the Black Sea near the Caucasus. Let's try to take one more step backward ... were those original Caucasus tribes maybe a mix between "Hyperborean" peoples (tribes from the Russian north - supported by archeological finds) and southern peoples like the Sumerians, Egyptians, Akkadians & Phoenicians? It's starting to look that way, the specifics of the (obviously related) Pagan traditions in these cultures seem to support the idea ... but that's a tough nut to crack. I'll just keep "hinting".

What's my point? Look at a map. This "dragon blood-line", a couple of milenium ago give or take, continually slithers around the edges of the Roman Empire. They go to Spain, they go to Ireland and Scotland, they pop up in Germania, just outside the reaches of Roman territory, they go to Scandinavia. Granted, the Romans were also pagan and "Galli priests" mutilated themselves in Rome, but this dragon blood-line, from what I can decifer, was a ruling class consistent throughout various pagan peoples with common roots, who branched out and conquered and prospered for centuries - but only outside of the borders of the Roman Empire.

This changed with the Merovingians. As the Roman Empire was collapsing and these "Salian Franks" crossed the Rhine into modern France, they took charge and eventually formed an uneasy alliance with Rome, ruling for a few hundred years there. The Cathars rooted in Septemania (Languedoc) in the south of France also flourished around this time (actually a bit later), but in fact shared religious roots and traditions with the Merovingians. They however were not so smart, and bore the wrath of the Holy Church of Rome. However, while many Cathars burned at the stake, their bretheren the Counts of Anjou played their cards much more cleverly and survived to mix with the Vikings, eventually producing the Templar Knights and overpowering (actually it was an inside job) the force of Rome in central Europe, ultimately producing the royal ("DRAGON") bloodlines of Europe and England.

................................................

When Philip IV started burning Templars, they fled to their homelands - Spain and Scotland (and, it appears, a place that would be later known as Switzerland).

We know that the Templar Knights were responsible for the Crusades, ....and the western banking system, ... and possibly the Freemasons, ... and maybe the "Illuminati" (if they actually still exist under that name - I believe they do) as well.

But I know that all roads lead to ... no, not Rome. To Scythia, to Mesopotamia, to Egypt, to Phoenicia, to the Caucasus.

(I may be a little off on some details, but I thought that trying to give an overview would help.)

Family crests are certainly helpful, and so are flags. As the Georgian crisis unfolded and I caught a glimse of the Georgian flag on CNN, I about fell off of my chair. It is the Cross of Jerusalem, the original Templar flag - practically unaltered!



Abkhazia is the northern-most province in Georgia.



They, like South Ossetia, are trying to separate from Georgia, so this is not to associate them with the "Templar tradition" as it were. I posted the flag of Northern Ireland, with its "Seal of Solomon" once here in this thread. Another element of that flag is an up-raised hand. Incredibly, the Abkhazia flag shows practically the same thing.



Now, I talked a bit about the Phoenicians, and their "red" dye which they got from a snail, which was really purple, and was so rare and hard to get that it became associated with royalty. This did not appear to be the "red" of the Phoenician and Viking sails, nor of the stripes of the British East India Trading Company or American flags that they may have inspired, nor the red and white banner of the Tribe of Dan for that matter. But, I stumbled on to something else ... the Phoenicians were well known for their dyes, and next in line to the purple of royalty they extracted from a snail was a RED they extracted from a "pregnant scale insect on the Kermes oak". Hey, that's what it says...

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry...man/0cadmus.htm

Carmine red, Cadmium RED !

I used to paint when I was a kid, I should have caught it. Cadmium red is one of the most basic red pigments used by artists. Cadmium of course comes from Caduceus, Cadmus!!! doh1.gif - So if you ever break out your acrylics or oils and reach for Cadmium red, you are squeezing out a bit of Phoenicia - and the word itself comes from Cadmus, the same (mythical) Egyptian that gives the Medical industry its staff of Caduceus with two snakes twisted around a rod, the same Phoenician king that slew the Dragon of Ares, founded Thebes, and planted the dragons teeth that would grow into Spartan soldiers.

There's another rare find in that above-linked web-page, which tells me that the North Ireland "up-raised hand" and the Abkhazian "up-raised hand" are both the sign of friendliness and trade derived from the Phoenicians, the first global traders of the world.



"Hey, what's up, let's do business". Give me five.

The Irish version is red on white, the Abkhazian version is white on red. I'm probably putting too much emphasis on this red-and-white theme, I'm sure there are many cases where its use is coincidental and unrelated to Phoenicia, the Templars, etc. In fact, other color schemes seem to be recurring and meaningful with regard to this dragon blood-line business and even provide clues to family origins ... blue and gold, blue and white (silver), or red and gold for example ... often in checks, stripes or chevrons, often a lion of one color on a background of another. (Still reading up on that.) - But the number of common threads that pass through the Caucasus of antiquity combined with a distinctly Templar flag of Georgia is just too much of a coincidence, not when a neocon-friendly administration digs it up after 500 years of disuse.

Oh and I just stumbled across this. Finally I give you the Coat of Arms of Tbilisi ... complete with the Hermes staff of Caduceus.

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post Aug 16 2008, 07:30 PM
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Heraldry update: Oceans Flow caught this and tumetuestumefaisdubien identified it. On Larry King president Saakashvili is seated in front of a flag showing a crest that turns out to be the Coat of Arms of the Bagrationi dynasty, who ruled Georgia from the early middle ages until the Soviet Union took it over.


http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....;#entry10749444

Saakashvili once "jokingly" remarked that his grandmother was from this royal line...

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=16019

QUOTE
“My grandmother was also a Bagrationi. I say it for people, who want to restore the monarchy. It would be even better because we would avoid the need for elections and would decide everything based on family traditions,” Saakashvili told Georgian reporters in Finland on October 12.

“Of course, I am joking,” he quickly added, saying it was unfortunate that he had to stress that because “the opposition lacks a sense of humor.”
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dMz
post Aug 17 2008, 05:35 PM
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Hi Sanders,

Here might be your connection between the Templars red-n-white herald/flag and that black-n-white Jolly Roger (post #22): the Teutonic Knights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order



[Be sure to check the name on that Teutonic Knights crest]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Den_tys...dens_skjold.svg

I'm not sure where you want to file these 2, but they came up while I was searching for that crest, and they're damn sure related somehow IMHO:

http://www.grandcollegeofrites.org/collectanea.php

http://www.hermetics.org/rose+cross.html

I'd call this one your "missing link:" the Templar [pirate] Fleet. There's a book on this, but I can't recall the details- I should have bought it in the bookstore that day...

http://alandpeters.tripod.com/knightstempl...to1312/id3.html

"The Knights Templar owned estates of varying size scattered throughout every climatic zone in Europe from Denmark, Scotland and the Orkney Islands in the north, to France, Italy and Spain in the south."

I think you've nailed those slithering Merovingians in several of their locales, too. That Quetzacoatl legend will blow your mind if you haven't researched that much yet.
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dMz
post Aug 17 2008, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 26 2008, 11:41 AM) *
Notice the snake which forms a ring around the Symbol of Solomon on the Theosophical Society Lodge logo. In addition to the significance of the serpent, which will become more and more apparent, the fact that it is eating its tail signifies the endlessness of time, and can be traced back to at least ancient Egyptian symbology. Also notice that the two triangles are interconnected, the Symbol of Solomon is commonly represented this way in Freemasonry (for a significant reason).

That serpent symbol is called an ouroboros. [Be sure to check those first 2 historical bits.] Here's a little more strangely familiar info on him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

The hexagram also ties in with that black/white, sun/moon dualism inherent in some form in most occult groups (and Hegelianism) and nearly all things masonic (and possibly Taoism as well but it won't be easy to find many connections there).

Have we come "full circle" yet? wink.gif
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Sanders
post Aug 17 2008, 08:02 PM
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Thanks dMole ! cheers.gif Good stuff. Also, I learned that the skull and cross bones symbol can be found in Templar-built churches (sometimes said to represent the bones of Mary Magdalene? ... sorry, I'd have to go look for sources). BTW, apparently, the Jolly Roger was not universally used by pirates, not by a long shot. Then again, just because one was a pirate didn't mean they were a Templar. The Skull and Crossbones apparently has very old roots - even before Baldwin and Roger of Sicily (the advertised origin of the "Jolly Roger") there was a very old letter combination with deep religious significance, the Chi-Rho (P & X), written on top of one another and resembing the skull and crossbones. Putting that aside though,

The skull and crossbones are apparently used in freemasonry...

QUOTE
Albert G. Mackey in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry explains that the Chamber of Reflection is:
"...a small room adjoining the Lodge, in which, preparatory to initiation, the candidate is enclosed for the purpose of indulging in those serious meditations which its sombre appearance and the gloomy emblems with which it is furnished are calculated to produce. It is also used in some of the advanced degrees for a similar purpose.

"This small room or chamber ... contains the following: a simple rough wooden table on which we find: a human skull, usually on two crossbones, a chunk of bread, a pitcher with water, a cup with salt, a cup with sulphur, a lighted candle or lantern, an hourglass, paper, ink and pen, a wooden stool or chair painted on the wall: a rooster, a sickle, the acronym V.I.T.R.I.O.L.(U.M.) and various sayings."

...the chamber indicates, at the same time, a beginning and an end: the end of one's life as a profane, and the beginning of a new life as an initiate in search of light, truth and wisdom. This can also be interpreted as a form of resurrection....

...Together with the crossbones, sickle and the hour glass, the skull naturally refers to mortality and is linked to the alchemical references also present in the Chamber. The alchemists aimed at transmuting base metals into silver and gold through the process of putrefaction. So must the profane transmute his nature, through a symbolical burial in the chamber, into a new transformed man in the form of an initiate. In alchemy this is called the great work. Indeed, man's refinement, transmutation and transformation from a brute base metal into gold requires great work! The skull in alchemy, named caput mortuum, is the epitome of decline and decay. The crossbones are usually tibias, the weight-bearing bones of the lower legs.

http://groups.msn.com/TemplarChronicles/vitriol.msnw

It's interesting you mentioned the ourboros, serpent eating it's tail. There's a whole aspect to this that the author John (Ladon-Gog) goes into about "wheel" terms.

http://www.tribwatch.com/wheel.htm

Fun stuff, eh? As for the Merovingians, I fear there's much more to the story. Clovis' claim to have been descended from a sea-serpent, and the closeness of Merovee to Merope (the name of several characters in Greek legends), plus the whole Magdalene heresy thing and the geographical closeness of Marseilles (where Mary Magdalene allegedly landed in France) and Languedoc from where Catharism spread (albeit after the Merovingians had exited the world stage), tells me there are a lot of dots to connect. .

One other comment, this came to me like a beam of light this morning. I don't know if I have mentioned this or not in this thread, but it occurs to me that monotheistic religion was not so much the introduction of a one true god in place of a pantheon of male and female god pairs, but rather the exile of the female god of earth and fertility in lieu of the storm god of the heavens. This is maybe best signified by the Aton cult of Egypt, whereby Akhenaton threw out all the other gods except Aton, the solar god (and was hated for it). Some suggest that this was the precursor of monotheistic religion, and some even suggest that Akhenaton himself was Moses. I seriously doubt that, but I have my suspicions that the perversions that took place in the early Christian church including the exclusion (and persecution) of women can be traced in part to this cult of Aton. Note that while the Merovingians, Templars & Rosecrucians took on the trappings of Christianity, they all emphasised the female, i.e. Mary Magdalene or the virgin Mary.

In making general comparisons between the ancient pagan to our own Jeudo-Christian-Western culture, I would point out that it's nice that we've long abandoned the custom of sacrificing our children (a part of pagan worship that our leaders may not have entirely forsaken yet? ... the "Cremation of Care" ceremony @ Bohemian Grove, fake as it is, comes to mind - as does Iraq!??). But I notice that here in Japan the dragon is one diety among the other 11 of the 12 year cycle, and in China it is balanced by the female Phoenix, together achieving perfect balance of Yin and Yang. In Meso-america the two were merged. Only in the West is the dragon a solitary figure, associated with war and rule over all. No wonder things are such a mess.
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Sanders
post Aug 17 2008, 08:18 PM
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P.S., I was reading more through those links dMole, and this jumped out at me (article about the Tuetonic knights):

"After Christian forces were defeated in the Middle East, the Order moved to Transylvania in 1211 to help defend Hungary against the Cumans."

By coincidence, I've been looking at Hungary alot lately. Long before Sigismund's Order of the Dragon, Hungary apparently was an important hub ... I'll get in to that in my next post hopefully.
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dMz
post Aug 17 2008, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 17 2008, 06:18 PM) *
By coincidence, I've been looking at Hungary alot lately. Long before Sigismund's Order of the Dragon, Hungary apparently was an important hub ... I'll get in to that in my next post hopefully.

Yes, I don't think the Templars were "exterminated" at all, but they changed a couple of outward appearances and there is a definite Scotland factor there as well. They likely moved eastward into Saxon barbarian lands (up through Livonia apparently) when King Philip? began his purge.

Here's another 'coincidence' from my ourboros link and your mention of Sigismund and his Order of the Dragon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_Snake-in-the-Eye

"Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye (Old Norse: Sigurðr ormr í auga) was one of the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok and Kraka, but what set him apart from the others was that he was born with the image of the ouroborous, a snake or dragon biting its own tail, encircling the pupil of his left eye."
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Sanders
post Aug 18 2008, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE
"Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye"


laugh.gif

What's with the eye all the time? Horus and his eye, Odin trading an eye for wisdom, Dagobert II getting stabbed through the eye, that one on the dollar bill ...


Here's lookin' at ya -


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Sanders
post Aug 19 2008, 05:16 PM
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This might be sorta long.

The first king of England, Egbert III, was married to a woman called Redburga ... we're talking around 12 hundred years ago, 250 years before William the Conqueror seized the throne of England. (Egbert was born about 775, died around 839.) Redburga's lineage is disputed, but there seems to be no question that she was closely related to the Carolingian French Kings (great-granddaughter of Charles Martel?), therefore she may have been related to the Merovingians as well. Quite astonishing if there was Merovingian blood sleeping in the bed with the very first English king, before Rollo had even swept into Normandy. Redburga's father is thought by some to have been Ingerman, Count of Hesbaye, Hesbaye was in modern Belgium. Whatever the case, it's pretty certain that Redburga's family were Franks.

Egbert ruled Wessex, and due to the dominance of his kingdom over the other provinces in England (Essex, Mercia, Kent etc.) which he unified under one banner for the first time, he is known as the first King of England.

While Egbert and his offspring were busy ruling England, Vikings referred to as the "Varangians" began terrorizing (I assume) their way from Scandinavia south-east through Russia, eventually reaching all the way down to the Black Sea and Byzantium. Along the way some of them put down roots in the Ukraine, which they ruled from Kiev as the Varangian "Rus".

Meanwhile farther south, Magyar and Kabar tribes moved west from Khazaria and settled in what would thereafter be known as Hungary. Note, the huge swath of land north of the Black and Caspian seas that I have been referring to as Scythia became Khazaria in the 7th century, and around when the kingdom was at it's height in the following century Khazaria converted en-mass to Judaeism. The above mentioned Magyar and Kabar migration west signaled, or was precipitated by, the fall of the Khazarian empire.

The term "Varangian" may truly be superfluous, for from what I can tell they were simply Vikings that were part of the 9th century south-east migration into Russia. They are usually regarded as Swedes, often specifically associated with Skaneland. Skaneland was the southern tip of Sweden (now known as Scania).



Allow me to point out though, that glancing over the ancestry of a certain king Yaroslov the Wise, a Varangian important to this story, I found that his ancestors ruled in Denmark, Novgorad, Skaneland, Zealand and Norway. Looks like a pretty well rounded Viking to me.

Supporting this, 'Ladon-Gog' author John makes a good case that the Varangians were not really Swedes as is often claimed, but Goths, and I found a few things which support that. One of them -

http://skaneland.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html

QUOTE
The historic Scanian language is not recognised by the Swedish government as a language but “as a Swedish dialect” . It is therefore not covered by the Council of Europe’s Charter on Regional or Minority Languages. It is clearly regarded by the establishment as fair game for ridicule, degradation and humiliation. One example of the treatment the Scanian language comes from a journalist at one of Sweden’s largest newspapers. The journalist wrote about an experience he had when he watched television and listened to the assistant national soccer team manager (a Scanian).

"I know that he is Swedish [---] but I didn’t understand a word he said...".

And,

QUOTE
"...they really do not belong to Sweden but to Europe. ... They have managed to obtain an, on the surface, stronger position and more power in Sweden with the help of his higher level of civilisation but has not managed to incorporate it into Sweden. ... it is not his kind of civilisation that have, and still has, characterised this land. When he has tried to turn it into something more victorious in Sweden he has been misunderstood and has therefore failed. He then returned into his limited isolation and lived his own life. But every time the Swedes have made jokes about the Scanians they have touched this inner wound and when this has happened over and over again, and often in a spiteful and malevolent manner, it has eventually created a hypersensitivity which is perceived as the peculiar Scanian touchiness."

..................

John, in various chapters, offers two possible derivations for the related terms "Rose-line" and "Rosicrucian", neither of which has anything to do with a rose (however the rose became associated with both the Rose-line and the Rosecrucians, maybe just for the convenient asthetic of it). One possible origin he cites are the Rhodians, a branch of the Danaus peoples who first settled in Rhodes (an island off the southern coast of Anatolia near Greece) after leaving Egypt in ancient times. His other view, one that I had never heard before, is that the rose in the Rose-line represents the "Ros", or "Rus", who he associates with "Rosh" of the bible, mentioned in end-times scripture in association with Japheth's sons Magog, Tubal and Meshech (all assumedly pertaining to Black Sea region "Gogi" peoples, possibly excepting Meshech who may somehow relate to Moscow?). End-times prophesy aside, the "Rus" in the term "Varangian Rus" certainly applies in this rose-line hypothesis, not only because of where these Vikings wound up, but because of their ancient Caucasus roots. For our purposes these "Rus" should not be confused with the indigenous Russians who they displaced or conquered along their trek south, although the Khazar and Magyar tribes who formed the land of Hungary should also be thought of as "Rus" in this context IMO, for they too originated in Scythia and/or the Caucasus, and they too were once Apollo's "wolf" peoples of the Rosh branches of Tubal and Gog. [EDIT - as I later investigate, the Hun/Mongol tribes' roots, when one goes deep, at least with regard to their leaders, appear to originate in Mesopopotamia - the area around Subartu and Ugarit, a very important archeological site, and that this migration extended all the way to Mongolia and back to Khazaria and then Hungary - obviously with much intermixing and diluting along the way, but Hungarian myths speak of their Subartu roots.] BTW regarding which of the "Rhodes" or "Rus/Ros" theories might account for the origins of the rose-line, I'd bet that it's both (I'm sure incorporating such double meaning must have been irresistable to the code-inventors).

Are the Varangian Rus in Kiev somehow connected to Hungary? Let me pose that question a slightly different way ... were the Varangian Rus in Kiev and the former Khazars in Hungary and the Frankish queen in Egbert's bed and the future kings and queens of England and Scotland and the de Veres and the Bruces and the Stewarts and the Jewish Cohens and the Lusignan crusaders of Anjou and the Holy Roman Emperors of Luxembourg ALL connected??? ... Keep your eye on the blue and white checks and bars. wink.gif

I must say that much of the dot-connecting here, indeed the basic ideas contained in this post were gleened from several chapters of Ladon-Gog. If you want to go right to the source, it's here:
http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm

Kudos to John.

The English were constantly being invaded by Vikings around the time of Egbert, Redburga and their offspring, and their grandson Alfred was so successful at fending off the invaders that he is called "Alfred the Great".

Alfred's great-great-grandson Edmund II ("Ironside") however ultimately caved to a multi-tribal force of Vikings united under a Dane by the name of Canute. As per a slightly bizzare treaty, upon Edmund's death Canute got control of nearly all of England, whereby Edmund's son Edward "the Exile" fled to Russia and took refuge in Kiev under the protection of Yaroslav (the Varangian) who was in power there at the time. Edward moved once again for some reason, this time south to Hungary, right around the time a king by the name of Andrew I of the "Arpad" line assumed the throne there. (Arpad was the leader of the original Magyar & Kabar tribes who settled Hungary a few generations earlier.)

Just prior to this Hungary had been ruled, badly, by Peter (Orseolo) "the Venitian" - he was descended on one side from Italians - and the pagan nobility finally threw him out and installed Andrew as king. I find it highly coincidental (not) that Edward just happened to move to Hungary right around the time Andrew came to power. [UPDATE: it was no coincidence, Edward the Exile and Andrew the Arpad were both living in Kiev together under the protection of Yaroslav "the Wise".] One other coincidence (not), Andrew married Yaroslav's daughter, Anastasia, further demonstrating a close connection between the Arpads of Hungary and the Varangian Rus of Kiev. (The royal Hungarian "Arpad" line, by the way, flows right back to Atilla the Hun. )

Here's where it gets interesting. Somewhere along the line Edward had two kids, Edgar the Atheling (heir apparent to the English throne) and Margaret. Margaret was probably born in Hungary, her mother being an Agatha of disputed identity. [UPDATE: I have come to side with the theory that Agatha was a sister of Yaroslov by his father Vladimir's a last wife Ragneda of Ohningen.]

Here is a little genealogy chart I whipped up, it should make all of this easier to follow.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/8216/margarettreeyw6.jpg

When Margaret was probably around 10 or 12 they all picked up and moved back to England. When I say "all", I don't mean just Edward and his family, they brought half the royal house of Hungary with them! (This is why I think Margaret was connected to the Hungaria royal family somehow, which is satisfied by the Arpad connections to the Rus of Kiev.) ...This was at the invitation of Edward's uncle, Edward "the Confessor" who was on the throne by then (the successors of Canute gave it back to the Saxons with little or no fuss, oddly enough - almost makes you wonder if the ruling Saxon & Viking families back then weren't more like squabbling siblings than arch enemies?).

Anyway, in 1066 William the Norman and his troops stormed into England, defeated Harold at Hastings, took England over from the Saxons for good, and Agatha (Edward was dead by now) spirited Margaret off to Scotland (Hungarians in tow) where her daughter then married king Malcom III. Actually legend has it that they boarded a boat for Russia but the wind blew them to Scotland ... but that story sounds kinda like balony to me. If the story's true though, it'd turn out to be one heck of a history changing gust of wind.


St. Margaret of Scotland

In the Edward family entourage was George, the youngest son of king Andrew I of Hungary, along with George's son Maurice who was a small boy at the time, and a royal relation of Andrew known as Bartholomew Ladislaus. Bartholemew Ladislaus is a hard person to pin down, but I am certain he was part of the Hungarian royal family, not just because John agrees but because there were soon afterwards a whole string of Hungarian kings named Ladislaus. When I look at that name a whole bunch of things pop into my head. As I was checking into the family of Vlad the Impaler a while back I sometimes saw the name of certain Vlads written as "Vladislaus" ... here's Vladislaus II, king of Hungary and Bohemia (perhaps Bohemia and neighboring Moravia were post-heyday Merovingian country - as it has come to my attention?), and a knight in the Order of the Dragon that Sigismund started.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_II_...mia_and_Hungary
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Sanders
post Aug 19 2008, 06:40 PM
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(Continued from above)

John remarks that the first part of the name Ladislaus, "Ladis", most likely connects to Leta, the mother of Apollo, and by extension the Ladon dragon, the namesake of his book. In Greek mythology the Ladon dragon guarded a grove of golden apples (evoking the biblical serpent of Eden) which was slain by Herakles. Ladon is also a river in southern Italy, near a place called Laus on the western coast, and there you have the "laus" part of Ladis-laus. The phrase "Laus Deo", if you were aware, is written at the top of the Washington Monument where no one can see it. Some folks will tell you this means "Praise be to God" in Latin, but don't believe it for a second. This giant penis symbol in the middle of the US capital was built by Freemasons.

Wikipedia gives an explanation of Ladislaus which is a little different but is certainly compatible, whereby
"Ladislav ... is comprised of the name of the ancient Slavic goddess of love Lada and the Slavic word slava (worship, glory). The name means He who worships Lada or He who glorifies Lada and has pagan roots."

This Bartholemew Ladislaus, who accompanied Margaret to Scotland and in fact married Malcom III king of Scotland's sister Beatrix, is sometimes referred to as Bartholemew Ladislaus Leslie, and is in fact considered the patriarch of the entire Scottish Leslie clan. A little about the Leslie clan,

QUOTE
Bartholomew's son Malcolm was knighted by King David and had the Leslie lands confirmed to him by royal charter, the oldest personal land charter in Aberdeenshire ...The original line died out with Andrew's grandson David, but son Walter became the Earl of Ross, son John the progenitor of the Earls of Rothes, and son George the first Baron of Balquhain.

The third line, Leslie-Rothes, became the senior line with George who was created the first Earl of Rothes around 1457. George, 4th Earl of Rothes, had a significant diplomatic role in the reign of James V; Andrew, 5th Earl, was of importance to Mary, Queen of Scots and King James VI; John, 6th Earl, was a leader of the Scottish opposition to King Charles I ...the Leslies of Balquhain, became the largest and most prolific. ...From Andrew were descended a host of families, among them the Earls of Leven, Lords Newark, the Leslies of Pitcaple, Kininvie, Iden and Cults; in Ireland the Leslies of Kincraigie, Glaslough and Tarbert; the Lords Leslie in Russia, Counts Leslie in France and in the Holy Roman Empire. From these and other branches, many Leslies descended, who spread from Scotland all over the world...

http://heraldry.celticradio.net/search.php...ranch=Abernethy

(Note the titles, "Earls of Ross", "Earls of Rothes".)

The other royal Hungarians in Margaret's entourage, George, king Andrew's son, and George's son Maurice, are the patriarchs of the entire Drummond clan in Scotland. Here's one of the Drummond estates.



There is a fair amount of Drummond blood in the royal Stewart family (most conspicuously from Annabella Drummond, the mother of James I Stewart king of England), but the Drummond name has also long been prominent in the British banking industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drummonds_Bank

Turns out two partners in (of?) the Drummond firm were in charge of doling out money from the English treasury during the American Revolution to pay for Hessian troops, money that ultimately went into the coffers of Mayer Rothschild and helped finance his family's banking empire. This may have been no coincidence. I don't know if you're like me or not or have been wondering for ages how and why the Rothschilds so easily became the private bankers to the royal houses of Europe, but herein may lie part of the answer.
http://www.tribwatch.com/huns.htm

I have to tell you, for some time I did not realise that king Andrew's son, George, accompanied Margaret to England. This bit of information is a rare gem, and we would never have known had John not dug it up for us (below quote found in the above link):
"...(illegitimate) Gy嗷gy [George], who, according to Europaeische Stammtafeln, went to Scotland in 1055 and became ancestor of the Drummond family. E.S. cites a 1959 work published in Warsaw as the source for this. I know that it has long been asserted that the Drummond family was founded by a Hungarian [Maurice] who returned to Britain with Edward Atheling, so this may be true" (http://genealogy.euweb.cz/arpad/arpad1.html")

Why do we care about this king Andrew, much less his son George? All you need do is take a good look at the British flag, a union of the Scottish saltire Cross of St. Andrew and the Templar red Cross of St. George.




NOOoooooo !!!!!????


(Note: the above flag is the original Union Jack)

Could it be? Both symbols were adopted after Margaret and her Hungarian entourage arrived in Britain, a good hundred years or so after in fact, in both cases. The two were joined into the Union Jack under James I Stewart of England, who was also James VI of Scotland, under whom the two kingdoms were joined. This James was both a direct descendent of Margaret and the Drummond clan, both lines attributable to George and Andrew. Add to that that the spread of Rosicrucianism in Bohemia in the early 17th century has been pegged to the marraige between James' daughter Elizabeth (the Queen of Hearts) and Frederick V, Elector Palatine...

QUOTE
His marriage in 1613 to Elizabeth, the daughter of James I of England, had been seen as a great strengthening of the Protestant cause in Europe....The supporters of the Bohemian project, as manifested in the literature of those years that purported to issue from an ancient but theretofore secret order of the メRosy Cross,モ also seem to have hoped that... the connection between that ancient federation and the Church of Rome would be broken, and the empire would become the instrument ... of "a general reformation of the whole wide world."

As it happened, few enterprises have ever turned out quite so badly...

http://www.johnreilly.info/rocr.htm

What of the other Saint George, the one who slew the dragon? What of the biblical Saint Andrew, the disciple of John the Baptist and Jesus who formed clouds into the shape of a big X (saltire cross) in the sky above king Ungus while he fought the English? I have a hunch that the legends behind these two crosses were adopted to create cover stories, to disquise the truth while simultaneously waving it in our face, as these myths and legends so often do. But let's take a closer look.

Obviously the Andrew described in the bible predates this period by a thousand years, but Wikipedia states that he didn't come to be the patron saint of Scotland until the 10th century - predating the arrival of Margaret, but not by much. The legend of Saint George on the other hand was apparently brought back to England by the first crusaders, the earliest known written account of dragon-slaying George being an 11th century Georgian text. (Georgia!!???)

As for the red Cross of St. George, it was adopted initially by the Templars and later by England and the City of London in 1190 (more than a century after Margaret and her entourage landed in England). Wikipedia states that the Red Cross was first used on the flag of Genoa, which begs the question, where did they get it ? And why does it turn up in Genoa??? Genoa, as it turns out, is a province in the region of Liguria, and therein lies the answer to the riddle.

You may have noticed a slew of "L" terms. Liguria, Ladislaus, Leslie, Ladon, Leta, Laus, and don't forget the Lugii (both in Poland and Scotland), and Lydia. I was looking at a map recently and discovered that Mt. Ida, the center of Cybele worship I discussed earlier in this thread, is farther west than I had imagined ... it's practically in Lydia. Which is why my eyes almost popped out when I read that according to records in the British Library, St. George's mum (I'm talking about the early medieval dragon-slaying George's mother) was from a place in the Levant (Holy Land) called Lydda !!!! I haven't mentioned the Lusignans yet, a prominent crusader family of France, and there are yet other conspicuous "L" terms that follow the dragon around. There is more in common though between these places & peoples than just a first letter "L". [EDIT - need I mention 'Lilith'? Or, "Lullabye" (Lilith be gone)?]

The Stewart clan below with a crest containing blue and white checks is of course significant because the Stewarts decended from the royal Scottish line of Malcom III and Margaret mixed with the Drummonds. A connection to the Cohens might not be evident at first, but the family of Cohen is said to be that of the priest tribe of Levi (which may or may not be relevant) but more significantly, the name Cohen derives from Kagan, which meant king in Khazaria. Interestingly, the Kagan rulers of Khazaria also fulfilled a priestly role. Also note that while all of these other crests bear blue and white (silver) checks or bars, the Stewart line mixes blue and gold. In these heraldic comparisons (other factors being equal), gold generally signifies dominance over silver.



Ladon-Gog author John traces the blue and white bars and checks ultimately back to a royal princess of Byzantium named Melissena, and on back from there to Michael I Rangabe, a Holy Emperor of Byzantium of the 9th century. I mention this because if you follow my tree (look for the blue and white shield toward the top-right) from Rangabe, you see a marraige between Anna of Byzantium and Vladimir of Kiev. From here the line splits, to Anastasia and the whole Drummond clan through Yaroslav, and to the French Brusses through his sister Arlogia Vladimirova. This Brusse line merges with the Sinclair line (!), and then with the royal line of Malcom and Margaret ... that's when the Brusses become Scottish Brus, and we find yet another "Sinclair" I assume (Isabel de Clare), after which they become the Bruces everyone is familiar with (i.e. Robert the Bruce). The crest of the Scottish Bruces retain only a blue lion, but you can see above that the Brusses of France that preceded them used blue and white like crazy (with lions and some fleur-de-lis thrown in as well).

Two last little things. Does this, depicting the flag of the Arms of the Rangabe family, the anscestors of Melissena who I just mentioned, not remind you of the Templar Cross of Jeruslalem/flag of Georgia, but in a blue and white theme!???


If you scroll up and look above and behind the head of Queen Margaret in the stained-glass window image shown in the previous post, you will see a very similar white cross on a blue background.

Lastly, Melissena is most certainly depicted in the medieval legend of Melusine, a half sea-serpent mermaid ...

QUOTE

"Melusine de VER has also been known as Melusina, Melouziana de Scythes, Maelasanu, and The Dragon Princess. She entered literary history in the book Roman de Melusine written in 1393 by Jean d'Arras. The story is a mix of fiction and fact, commissioned by the Duke de Berry, a French noble who was brother to King Charles V, and uncle of King Charles VI. It was meant to be a family history and to uphold the proprietary claims to Lusignan and Anjou. In this story Melusine's mother was a Presine fairy who charmed Elinas, the king of Scotland. The result was their daughter Melusine. Half fairy and half princess, Melusine wandered over to the Continent and eventually met up with Rainfroi/Raymond in the forests Anjou. They met while he was out boar hunting. Overcome with her beauty, he took her hand in marriage, and many adventures ensued. As a result of this book, Melusine was subsequently featured in medieval tales across Europe, variously depicted as a mermaid, a water sprite, a fairy queen, a fairy princess, a dragon princess, and a forest nymph. She came to represent any magial creature who marries a mortal man. Most royal houses in Europe have claimed lineage to the real Melusine, so she has been the subject of great speculation. Legends about Melusine and Rainfroi (or Raymond) also often have a connection to boars and boar hunting."


Half sea-serpent Melusine bumps into Raymond de Vere while he's BOAR hunting in the forests of Anjou and he marries her. And then you have that blue de Vere boar (and that green de Vere dragon). Unbelievable.


P.S., here's a link to the homepage of a luxury hotel overlooking the Danube in Budapest called the Saint George Residence
http://www.universehotels.se/hotel/75310-S...e-Budapest.html

And here's George himself slaying the dragon and bearing the red Templar cross on his shield. (Jpeg swiped from the above Hotel website. biggrin.gif )

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CocaineImportAge...
post Aug 19 2008, 11:59 PM
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...bloody hell!....i don't know whats worse!?.... trying to get your head around a Michael Tsarion DVD!... or a Sanders post!?!... blink.gif wink.gif

...i remember Tsarion saying something like.... the Dragon represents the four elements!... the claws that grasp the EARTH... the scale`s on the flesh the WATER... the beat of its wings the WIND... its breath the FIRE!.... and these together represent the fifth element that for the life of me i cant remember what he said!?... dunno.gif
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dMz
post Aug 20 2008, 12:15 AM
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Hi CIA,

I think the alchymists called the 5th element air or aether IIRC. (Ironic that Quantum Mechanics now is finally requiring an ether too about 150 years later [but physicists like to cryptically call it "dark matter" so that no one knows WTF they mean] ).
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Sanders
post Aug 20 2008, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Aug 23 2008, 10:59 PM) *
...i remember Tsarion saying something like.... the Dragon represents the four elements!... the claws that grasp the EARTH... the scale`s on the flesh the WATER... the beat of its wings the WIND... its breath the FIRE!.... and these together represent the fifth element... dunno.gif


Yeah, definitely, that's what these all represent




I wouldn't have been confident that the Skull and Crossbones should be included there among those other crosses, until I learned of the Chamber of Reflection rite of Freemasonry. Also, the four treasures of myth brought to Ireland by the Tuatha de Danaan more than 3 thousand years ago (probably connected to the 4 suits of the Tarot and hence our playing cards) probably fit in here too ...

QUOTE
"from Falias Fál or Lia Fáil, the stone of destiny, which cries out under a lawful king; from Findias the sword of Nuadu, which allows no one to escape; from Gorias Gáe Assail, the spear of Lug Lámfhota, which guarantees victory; from Murias the cauldron of the Dagda, which leaves everyone satisfied."



And most definitely THIS !

THE FIFTH ELEMENT - final scene


The fifth-element here is a supreme being, supernatural and female, and her evil-destroying light-beam won't work until Bruce kisses her - union of male & female, god & mortal. Notice the Celtic Cross (circle and cross together - zodiac divisions, 5 elements, seasons etc. expressed in this symbol as described in the Zeitgeist film) formed by the light right at the climax of the film -



..................................................

"Order out of Chaos" concept explained - (and then debunked)

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