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Wtc Glow Images

DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 5 2011, 07:57 AM
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These are images from the WTC disaster that show an intense glowing white light that was visible for a very short time during each collapse. There is also evidence of a very intense fire/explosion in the SE corner of the complex around Liberty and Church Street after the 2nd collapse. (I've tried to exclude pictures that were the result of reflective light and not the result of high intensity explosives or bombs.)

--------------


Beginning of WTC 2 collapse, from street level on west side of complex.



WTC 2 Collapse, viewed from north side of complex looking south.



End of WTC 2 collapse, viewed from NJ.



WTC 1 Collapse, viewed from NJ.




WTC 1 Collapse, viewed from north side of complex looking south.



WTC after collapses viewed from Church and Vesey Street looking south toward Liberty Street.



WTC after collapses viewed from Church and Vesey Street looking south toward Liberty Street.

This post has been edited by DoYouEverWonder: Mar 5 2011, 07:58 AM
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SanderO
post Mar 5 2011, 10:30 AM
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DYEW,

With all due respect... these glows are nothing more than the dust refracting the low sunlight with is basically back lighting the dust. Nothing mysterious here.

What do you expect the bright sunlight to look like obscured by fine dust?

Or what is your explanation for this?

I think your coordinates on the last photo are incorrect... although it is looking south on Church... but the standing parts of the south towers I do not recall and they look terribly close to Church Street... what say you?

This post has been edited by SanderO: Mar 5 2011, 10:36 AM
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 5 2011, 10:52 AM
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These are the same columns looking at them from the east side of Church Street. Yes, they flew over WTC 4 imbedded themselves in the street on the east side of WTC 4.

If you look again at WTC 4. The cantilevered trusses that held up the floors above the first floor are gone. The 1st Floor of WTC 4 is gone and the 2nd floor is now at ground level.
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SanderO
post Mar 5 2011, 12:09 PM
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DYEW,

Nice catch... yes this looks like the facade panels embedded in the street and I mis read them for the tree columns at the base.

My comment about the glare and refraction still stands.
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 6 2011, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE
I think your coordinates on the last photo are incorrect...


You tend to think everything I post is incorrect, even when you don't know wtf you're talking about. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
the standing parts of the south towers I do not recall and they look terribly close to Church Street... what say you?


laughing1.gif

I guess embedded in Church Street is about as close as you can get.

And no that not's the sun shining from the south on the corner of Church and Liberty at 10:30 AM. Last time you told me I was wrong about this picture was on LC and then you tried to claim it was the sun setting in the west. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
I don't think the brightness is anything more than the afternoon sun lighting up the haze and smoke.


Loose Change
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SanderO
post Mar 6 2011, 11:28 AM
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Why don't you go to the NOAA site and get the angle of the sun for the time of the photo. I think you will find that the sun was not behind smoke and dust but that the smoke and dust in the case you side was BETWEEN the sun's position and the camera.

I don't think everything you or anyone writes is wrong. We all make mistakes and I am no exception.

And what is your explanation for the glow?

And at what angle would the sun NOT produce such a glow and why?

By the way if you look at the location Trinity Church borders Church to the east and Liberty street is a clear shot to the east as well.

One thing I have noticed lying in my boat when the sun angle is low... strong light entering the cabin illuminates the little dust in the air and you can see the light BECAUSE of this. I am sure everyone has seen light streaming from a window in "defined" "beams". What do you think you are seeing?

You are seeing dust... very small dust, most of it invisible to the naked eye, illuminated by the light. THAT IS HOW YOU CAN SEE A BEAM OF LIGHT.

This post has been edited by SanderO: Mar 6 2011, 11:33 AM
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 8 2011, 11:39 PM
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For the record: I originally started this thread for KP50, who had asked me to post any images I had like the 1st one on Church Street. I had spent more time then I care to admit on Sunday looking for a specific video that I had only seen once or twice and couldn't find. What a surprise, when the next day this very same video pops up as a 'new' release. (No it's not) Anyway, the nuns use to say god works in mysterious ways. rolleyes.gif


NYPD Aviation Video

Here's a few screen caps from the collapse of WTC 2 that I was looking for:





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KP50
post Mar 9 2011, 02:21 AM
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Thanks for these DYEW, it really does appear to be lit up. I would guess at a link between the light and the ferocious underground temperatures ......

QUOTE
Anyway, the nuns use to say god works in mysterious ways.

I was taught by nuns when I was young - they gave me some good habits.
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SanderO
post Mar 9 2011, 06:38 AM
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These are interesting images and if they were taken just after the collapse... it's hard to tell... my guess would be that it is still explained by a refraction of sunlight hitting dust and even steam or water vapor in the air. If I recall correctly firefighters got on that pile immediately looking for survivors and did not report excessive heat.

Perhaps the area just above the tower after the collapse was relatively clean air as it had been pulled down by the collapse. The areas outside the foot print down at the ground contained the heavier denser dust from the collapse which was billowing out and away and it was like a 'nuclear winter" obscuring the sky for anyone caught inside of it. It looked like a dense impenetrable to sunlight cloud from the outside until it thinned and dispersed. We can see those billowing dust clouds in the photos.

This bright yellowish refraction of the air born dust or water vapor... if this is correct... might also explain the yellowish... or some of it... tinge of the molten metal pouring from the NE corner of the south tower just a few minutes before the above pictures were taken.

We know that clouds take on a yellow and even orange and red cast depending on the angle the sun's light strikes them and the observer. When we see a sunset of bright orange etc. while looking west, those further to the west looking up at the same instant at those same clouds and would see them as white or light gray. This is because of the angle of refracted light on the dust and water drops in the clouds.

By the way, as you watch the video you can see ALL the thin edges / boundaries of the smoke and dust in the air appear to be yellowish and organge and the denser parts of the cloud look opaque and gray or white. This is consistent with the explanation offered.

Whether a dust cloud refracts or obscures light is likely dependent on the density of the cloud and what it's made of and the angle of the illuminating source. Basic optics at work.

This is an optical physics problem I suspect.

Just an hypothesis. But this observation does need to be explained.

This post has been edited by SanderO: Mar 9 2011, 06:47 AM
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amazed!
post Mar 9 2011, 04:02 PM
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Bullshit, SanderO

DYEW

Your point is made brilliantly, pardon the pun.

And I hate to bring up a sore point, but somehow your fine presentation makes me think of Judy....

Just sayin' , as I had not been aware of your point until just now. There is certainly something special about that visual phenomenon.
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SanderO
post Mar 9 2011, 05:14 PM
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Amazed,

Could you chill out a bit?

What I explained was not bull shit and is a perfectly sound optics explanation. If you bother to look at the rest of the video and others as well you see the same "glow" in the boundaries of the ALL the dust clouds where the light is able to penetrate enough to illuminate and create this glow.

Just look at the video again and you can see this.

Golden beams of light and streams of light have been observed for thousands of years and can be seen even in many paintings from the renaissance where their was a pre occupation with realism and light. This is also when the first work with optics was done.

"If you see the beam, you are seeing the scattered light being reflected off particles in the air. Any light you actually see is no longer ... light, assuming you have sense enough not to look at it directly."

Light can emitted... a source of light like a flame... or it can be reflected or refracted... as opaque objects.

I think you need to brush up on your understanding of optics and powers of observation... not to mention your critical thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optics
http://www.play-hookey.com/optics/reflrefr1.html

This post has been edited by SanderO: Mar 9 2011, 05:15 PM
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 9 2011, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (amazed! @ Mar 9 2011, 03:02 PM) *
Bullshit, SanderO

DYEW

Your point is made brilliantly, pardon the pun.

And I hate to bring up a sore point, but somehow your fine presentation makes me think of Judy....

Just sayin' , as I had not been aware of your point until just now. There is certainly something special about that visual phenomenon.

I believe that the existing mechanical systems that ran the complex were sabotaged. Instead of using conventional weapons or explosives, they had natural gas, steam and lots of electric. I do think that thermite and/or cutter charges were used in strategic places but most of the dirty work was done with fuel/air explosives.

Keep in mind that not only did three steel hi-rises fall completely in under 30 seconds, but most of the rest of the 16 acre complex was destroyed and the entire Plaza collapsed0, yet none of the perimeter streets collapsed. The Twins did not have natural gas lines above ground, but natural gas lines ran underground around the entire complex and I think most of the other buildings had natural gas lines for some of their tenants.

Here's an example of the a fuel explosion. Imagine what this would look like if the entire site was covered up with buildings. You wouldn't see as much but the results would be devastating.

Henderson Factory Explosion

(please embed)

The flashes and resulting fire from fuel explosions are quick and hot. Once the fuel runs out then the combustibles will continue to burn but you won't have the white hot glow like you see in the initial blast. That's why it's so hard to find good pictures of the WTC glow because they only lasted for a few minutes at most.

And no god did not send down a ray of light to shine on the just fallen Tower.
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SanderO
post Mar 9 2011, 08:21 PM
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The streets bordering the WTC did not collapse because they were built over solid ground.. no hollow spaces to collapse into.

You can make up all the reasons for the glow you want, but the simplest explanation is refracted light on dust and it too would only last a few moments until the dust disbursed or the sun was eclipsed by a building.

You need to watch a few more sun sets to see the glow...

This post has been edited by SanderO: Mar 9 2011, 08:24 PM
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 9 2011, 10:36 PM
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Gee, I can still see underneath Vesey Street in this old picture and those look more like steel trusses, then 'solid' ground to me.

This post has been edited by DoYouEverWonder: Mar 9 2011, 10:37 PM
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SanderO
post Mar 10 2011, 08:08 AM
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The underground connection to the WTC garage was a ramp inside WTC 7 which connected to the sub basements and parking garage under the main site.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx108/p...kt325/227-1.jpg

Here you can see Vesey street and it shows the north wall of the Bathtub and Vesey street runs up to the Federal Office building which was to the east of WTC 7. At least part of Vesey street was outside of the bathtub and WTC 7 was not constructed inside the bathtub and lay to the north of the bathtub's north wall. But all the other surrounding streets were clearly outside the bath tub and on solid ground.

In the construction photo you see the north bathtub wall.

Were there fires or explosions associated with natural gas? Why wouldn't there have been?
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 10 2011, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Mar 10 2011, 07:08 AM) *
Were there fires or explosions associated with natural gas? Why wouldn't there have been?






No, no fire here. Just sunlight.
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amazed!
post Mar 10 2011, 10:20 AM
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Yeah, sunlight..... laughing1.gif
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SanderO
post Mar 10 2011, 11:09 AM
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Those two images are clearly fire. No contest from me.
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 11 2011, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE
SanderO

But all the other surrounding streets were clearly outside the bath tub and on solid ground.




The slurry walls were three feet wide and on the other side was not solid ground.
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SanderO
post Mar 11 2011, 11:03 AM
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What is your explanation for what is behind / outside the bathtub walls?

West Street side of the bathtub wall (for sure) had diagonal cables which were anchored into the ground on the outside of the wall. These were required to resist the hydrostatic pressure exerted on the outside of the wall. Look up retaining walls and how they work.

No way was the ground outside the bathtub anything resembling "hollow" or truss supported. This applies to all the land outside the bathtub. It was created to keep the water out of the 7 basement levels of the WTC campus as they were below the Hudson River which flowed a few hundred feet to the east. In fact, the WFC and Battery Park City was built on landfill from the WTC bathtub excavation.

Explain this glow:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/255836/thumbs/s-...BERIA-large.jpg

I think it's terrific that you are examining the photos and trying to explain them. That is what science is about... logical explanations of observations using known or in some case new principles or "laws" to explain them. Explanations must mach observations.

You have posted visual images and as such they need to be scrutinized to see how optics might explain them. If there is no optics explanation an alternative explanation of the optical / visual effect is in order. Fire or some sort of luminous affect is a possibility. However, I think the correct explanation is a simple optical phenomena of refracted light on dust and steam. I'm OK with that explanation unless this explanation can be falsified.
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