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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ WTC 7 _ Fires In Wtc7 Before WTC1N Collapse

Posted by: KP50 May 24 2007, 02:34 AM

Been trawling for eye-wtiness accounts on and off for a while, specifically anything connected with WTC7 before the collapse of the South Tower. As usual, apologies if this has already been covered. This link

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5270/

indicates that the OEM was evacuated not for the reason given in the Commission Report - which was fear of a 3rd hijacked plane. The OEM director believed the evacuation was because of

QUOTE
As Sheirer helped move the Fire Department command post, he saw a cloud of smoke and debris engulf his own command center, on the twenty-third floor of 7 World Trade Center. His staff was inside sending alerts to representatives of nearly 100 organizations -- everyone from Con Edison to the Department of Health. One of his deputies radioed him to report that the OEM would have to evacuate.


and you think he would know.

Next the well known Barry Jennings quote

QUOTE
After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said.


http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

but I have been unable to find any timestamp for this.

Finally

QUOTE
An employee of Solomon Smith Barney who worked in WTC 7 says,
I actually worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11. From the minute the first plane hit the towers, WTC7 was getting hit with debris. In fact, when I finally got down to the lobby 45 minutes later, we were all forced to leave through the back since so much debris had hit the building and blocked the entrance.


I took this from http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2007/04/answer-to-challenge.html but have seen it elsewhere on OCT sites.

Has anybody else seen anything whether from witnesses or photos that can get to the bottom of this? Also anything to rule out that damage was caused by debris from the impact on the South Tower.

Posted by: Beached May 24 2007, 02:12 PM

I can't believe there are people dumb enough to still push the "fire and brimstone" theory to explain away what is clearly a controlled demolition. Perhaps they would care to demonstrate this specious hypothesis, not merely in theory, but rather by way of physical experimentation.

Posted by: amazed! May 24 2007, 03:59 PM

How much debris could have fallen on it? And how could debris damage and fire have caused such a beautifully symmetrical collapse? Interesting that none of the other buildings in the area had such a collapse, and some folks say that other buildings sustained more damage than 7.

Inside job, all the way.

Posted by: michaelr Oct 15 2007, 04:59 PM

[Moved from Research by d]

I am looking for more conformation to the time at witch the fire in WTC7 started. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

I have Barry Jennings, and The history channel stating they started before the tower collapse.

Posted by: dMole May 27 2008, 11:25 AM

Hunt the fires and catastrophic WTC7 structural damage:

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2863395483.html

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2863444748.html

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2863449684.html

ETA:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2873770923.html

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2873766457.html

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2873768908.html

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2873769993.html

Leads to:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2873776548.html

about 7 hours later. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Ricochet May 27 2008, 12:50 PM

This is an exerpt from Columbia University study. The claim is debris from the second impact hit WTC 7 forcing them out.


QUOTE
On this day, Sheirer’s priority was securing lower Manhattan. To this end,
he ordered the police department to close all roads below Canal Street, as well
as all tunnels and bridges. He also activated the city’s Emergency Operations
Center (EOC), a $13 million, 50,000 square foot “Watch Command” located on
the 23rd
floor of 7 World Trade Center (Bowles 2001 ). Housing numerous
telecommunications and security systems, the Emergency Operations Center
was expected to serve as the core logistics center for as many as 68 city
agencies immediately following the attacks (ArcNews Online 2002). From here,
Sheirer, Mayor Giuliani and personnel from organizations including the New York
Police Department (NYPD) and Federal Emergency Management Agency
(FEMA) could collect and redistribute orders and updates to law enforcement and
residents alike.
When the second plane hit, debris flew into 7 World Trade Center, forcing
Sheirer to evacuate the Emergency Operations Center and set up a command
center in the lobby of the North Tower (Campo-Flores 2001). Sheirer then
ordered the Coast Guard to seal New York harbor, and asked the Pentagon to
close the city’s airspace (Griscom 2001). Concerned about additional attacks,
Sheirer spoke with NYPD brass, which agreed that NYPD helicopter pilots should
be prepared to crash their choppers into any other planes attempting to attack
the city (Forty Eight Hours 2002).
3

Page 5
Shutting down lower Manhattan facilitated quicker movement of
emergency workers and supplies to the “hot zone” (Archibold 2001). Police
Commissioner Bernard Kerik, (NYC.Gov 2002), spearheaded this latter effort.
Kerik met Giuliani and several top fire department officials near the base of the
Twin Towers just as the second plane hit at 9:03 a.m. (Marzulli 2001). Unable to
contact the Emergency Operations Center, the staff moved to a makeshift
command post at 75 Barclay Street to avoid the falling debris. Here, Giuliani,
Kerik and top aides received briefings about the unfolding situation and from that
location managed initial safety actions and communications. During this time,
Giuliani conferred with Sheirer, who directed the closure of all non-emergency
activity and entrants below 14th Street

Posted by: dMole May 27 2008, 01:27 PM

Have you got a link to the source for the Columbia Univ. report Rico?

My search found the following in NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf

[Numbered Page 109- but 163/294 in PDF]
-----
When the first aircraft struck WTC 1, the electrical power went out for several seconds inside WTC 7.368
Many people immediately began leaving the building, and the OEM operations center began receiving
calls related to the emergency.369 As the second aircraft struck WTC 2, a decision was made to evacuate
WTC 7.370 By the time WTC 2 was struck by the second aircraft at 9:03 a.m., many WTC 7 occupants
had already left the building and others had begun a self-evacuation of the building. Shortly after WTC 2
was struck, a firefighter entered WTC 7 from the Washington and Vesey Streets side, connected a hose
line onto the “A” stairwell sprinkler riser and started the Engines pumps.371 At approximately 9:30 a.m.,
FDNY, EMS established a Division for assisting victims at WTC 7.372 An EMS triage center was
established in the lobby of WTC 7 as occupants from WTC 1 and WTC 6 evacuated through WTC 7.373
At approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city and news that the
Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7.

(Sheirer 2004) This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor. The loss of the OEM operations center created difficulties related to the coordination of emergency responder operations and resources.374 Before the OEM operations center was evacuated, OEM had assigned personnel to work with each of the emergency responder command posts. This reduced the impact of the loss of the WTC 7 OEM office. (See Chapter 8.) Occupants evacuating from WTC 7 used both the elevators and stairways as they left the building.375 Shortly after WTC 7 was evacuated, the FDNY Fire
Commissioner arrived, looking for the Mayor who he believed to be at the OEM center on the 23rd floor.
A guard met the Commissioner in the lobby and ordered him and his staff out of the building. The guard
told him, “This building has been evacuated.” and that “OEM, the mayor, they’re all gone.”
(Von Essen 2002)
At 9:59 a.m., WTC 2 collapsed, and debris from the collapse struck the south face of WTC 7.376 At 10:28 a.m., WTC 1 collapsed and a significant amount of damage was done to WTC 7.377 A large amount of debris crashed through the front center of the building from approximately the 10th floor down to ground level, and debris ripped a part of the southwest corner off from approximately the 8th floor up to the 18th floor.378 The collapse of WTC 1 also appears to be responsible for starting fires inside of WTC 7.379 With the collapse of the two towers, a New York City employee and a WTC 7 building staff person became trapped inside of WTC 7.380 The two had gone to the OEM center on the 23rd floor and
------
367 FDNY Interview 54, winter 2004.
368 FDNY Interview 54, winter 2004.
369 FDNY Interview 54, winter 2004.
370 WTC 7 Interview 1110402, fall 2002.
371 WTC 7 Interview 2110402, fall 2002.
372 McKinsey & Company, Increasing FDNY’s Preparedness, New York, August 2002.
373 FDNY Interview 45, winter 2004.
374 FDNY Interview 45, winter 2004.
375 WTC7 Interviews 1110402 and 2110402, fall 2002.
376 FDNY Interview 45, winter 2004.
377 PAPD Interview 1, fall 2003.
378 FDNY Interview 3, winter 2004.
379 FDNY Interview 19, winter 2004.
380 WTC 7 Interviews 2041604 and 1041704, spring 2004.
-----
[see the next 2 pages as well]

Posted by: Ricochet May 27 2008, 01:50 PM

QUOTE
Have you got a link to the source for the Columbia Univ. report Rico?

http://www.columbia.edu/~sc32/CATASTROPHE%20AND%20THE%20PUBLIC%20SERVICE.pdf

Posted by: dMole May 27 2008, 01:59 PM

Thanks Rico,

This part was telling IMHO: "One purpose of the paper is to present a positive story of public service and the centrality and importance of government leadership in emergency response. The role of private citizens, private firms and volunteers will be discussed. The paper also recounts the fiscal impact of the event on New York City government, and the impact of this catastrophe on resource allocation for government emergency response. Finally, we analyze the lessons learned in the response action and conclude with steps to be repeated and avoided in future emergency response actions."

Anyone care to guess what one or two purposes of the Columbia paper and NISTNCSTAR1-8 were not?

Posted by: maturin42 May 27 2008, 02:02 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ May 25 2008, 04:27 PM) *
Have you got a link to the source for the Columbia Univ. report Rico?

My search found the following in NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf

[Numbered Page 109- but 163/294 in PDF]
-----
When the first aircraft struck WTC 1, the electrical power went out for several seconds inside WTC 7.368
Many people immediately began leaving the building, and the OEM operations center began receiving
calls related to the emergency.369 As the second aircraft struck WTC 2, a decision was made to evacuate
WTC 7.370 By the time WTC 2 was struck by the second aircraft at 9:03 a.m., many WTC 7 occupants
had already left the building and others had begun a self-evacuation of the building. Shortly after WTC 2
was struck, a firefighter entered WTC 7 from the Washington and Vesey Streets side, connected a hose
line onto the “A” stairwell sprinkler riser and started the Engines pumps.371 At approximately 9:30 a.m.,
FDNY, EMS established a Division for assisting victims at WTC 7.372 An EMS triage center was
established in the lobby of WTC 7 as occupants from WTC 1 and WTC 6 evacuated through WTC 7.373
At approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city and news that the
Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7.

(Sheirer 2004) This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor. The
loss of the OEM operations center created difficulties related to the coordination of emergency responder
operations and resources.374 Before the OEM operations center was evacuated, OEM had assigned
personnel to work with each of the emergency responder command posts. This reduced the impact of the
loss of the WTC 7 OEM office. (See Chapter 8.) Occupants evacuating from WTC 7 used both the
elevators and stairways as they left the building.375 Shortly after WTC 7 was evacuated, the FDNY Fire
Commissioner arrived, looking for the Mayor who he believed to be at the OEM center on the 23rd floor.
A guard met the Commissioner in the lobby and ordered him and his staff out of the building. The guard
told him, “This building has been evacuated.” and that “OEM, the mayor, they’re all gone.”
(Von Essen 2002)
At 9:59 a.m., WTC 2 collapsed, and debris from the collapse struck the south face of WTC 7.376 At
10:28 a.m., WTC 1 collapsed and a significant amount of damage was done to WTC 7.377 A large amount
of debris crashed through the front center of the building from approximately the 10th floor down to
ground level, and debris ripped a part of the southwest corner off from approximately the 8th floor up to
the 18th floor.378 The collapse of WTC 1 also appears to be responsible for starting fires inside of
WTC 7.
379 With the collapse of the two towers, a New York City employee and a WTC 7 building staff
person became trapped inside of WTC 7.380 The two had gone to the OEM center on the 23rd floor and
------
367 FDNY Interview 54, winter 2004.
368 FDNY Interview 54, winter 2004.
369 FDNY Interview 54, winter 2004.
370 WTC 7 Interview 1110402, fall 2002.
371 WTC 7 Interview 2110402, fall 2002.
372 McKinsey & Company, Increasing FDNY’s Preparedness, New York, August 2002.
373 FDNY Interview 45, winter 2004.
374 FDNY Interview 45, winter 2004.
375 WTC7 Interviews 1110402 and 2110402, fall 2002.
376 FDNY Interview 45, winter 2004.
377 PAPD Interview 1, fall 2003.
378 FDNY Interview 3, winter 2004.
379 FDNY Interview 19, winter 2004.
380 WTC 7 Interviews 2041604 and 1041704, spring 2004.
-----
[see the next 2 pages as well]


According to the statements of Hess and Jennings, as reported in DRG's 9/11 Contradictions, the explosion that trapped them in Bldg 7 took place while both of the towers were still standing. It makes it a bit of a stretch then to say that they were trapped by events that took place much later. The jiggering of the timelines is the principle means by which the Commission magically transformed the facts into support for an innocuous timeline that muddies the water about Bldg 7 and gets NORAD, Cheney, et al. off the hook, despite the huge disparity between witness accounts and what they want us to believe. The pattern is repeated in accounts of Cheney's movements and actions that are in stark contrast with Mineta's testimony and events as they unfolded.

Posted by: KP50 May 28 2008, 12:07 AM

Bookmark this page

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/index.shtm

as it has some great shots of the towers and also a view of the business side of WTC7. From

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-16.jpg

onwards, you can see shots of WTC7 with what appears to be very bright lights coming from certain floors which seems to indicate which parts were on fire. They roughly match the floor that Jennings claimed to be on when there was an explosion. If you can't locate WTC7, it is to the left of the North Tower.

As a side issue there are also indications of explosions/smoke at various points on the towers themselves.

Posted by: dMole May 28 2008, 10:57 AM

Thanks KP50- those are some great photos,

If those bright lights near WTC7 are actually fires, I certainly wouldn't call them an "inferno"- looks more like 3-5 rooms ablaze (in 2 separate locations) IMHO.

Isn't the (post WTC1N collapse) "damaged" SW corner of WTC7 visible in the following:

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-110.jpg

Now that doesn't seem to agree with the NIST and other claims above, does it?

Also, this is a great collection of high-res photos KP- it should probably be posted in the main "World Trade Center" section here for WTC1 and WTC2 research, too- would you like to post it there?

I'd probably include a warning about slow load times due to the many high-res ~16-20MB photos (it bogs down my high-speed US internet connection, and I've heard those are better than most). It looked like the WTC2 South collapse started around photo "wtc-38.jpg," and the photos are in chronological sequence.

---------
EDIT: Adding chronological links for reference [these are some extremely high-resolution photos and will take a long time to load]

~5 minutes after WTC2 South fireball event:
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-9.jpg

Bright "lights" or fire in WTC7?
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-12.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-16.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-20.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-25.jpg < excellent photos of WTC7 "lights" here and below
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-26.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-30.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-31.jpg

[The other photos of between wtc-10 and wtc-41 are mainly of the WTC1N & WTC2 So fires, and there are some excellent photos there too.]

South Tower destruction:
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-40.jpg
and
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-41.jpg

North Tower destruction:
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-68.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-69.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-70.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-71.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-72.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-73.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-74.jpg
and finally
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-75.jpg

World Financial Center (WFC) AMEX building? damage
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-102.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-103.jpg

The SW corner of WTC7
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-105.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-110.jpg

Zafar's pre-9/11 perspective of WTC without dust:
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-6.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-7.jpg
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-8.jpg
[Night]
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-3.jpg

Again, the lower-res versions can be seen on Aman Zafar's main page [but it is very slow loading with all these photos]:
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/index.shtm

Let us not forget all those lost on Sep 11, 2001 (taken a couple of nights later):
http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-113.jpg

---------
Thanks again,
d

Posted by: KP50 Jun 3 2008, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ May 29 2008, 02:57 AM) *
Thanks KP50- those are some great photos,

If those bright lights near WTC7 are actually fires, I certainly wouldn't call them an "inferno"- looks more like 3-5 rooms ablaze (in 2 separate locations) IMHO.

Isn't the (post WTC1N collapse) "damaged" SW corner of WTC7 visible in the following:

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-110.jpg

Now that doesn't seem to agree with the NIST and other claims above, does it?

Also, this is a great collection of high-res photos KP- it should probably be posted in the main "World Trade Center" section here for WTC1 and WTC2 research, too- would you like to post it there?

I'd probably include a warning about slow load times due to the many high-res ~16-20MB photos (it bogs down my high-speed US internet connection, and I've heard those are better than most). It looked like the WTC2 South collapse started around photo "wtc-38.jpg," and the photos are in chronological sequence.

Thanks again,
d


Dear d,

I don't really fancy posting those photos to be honest, too damn big - they are great photos though.

On the size of the WTC7 fires in the early photos, the importance of them is that they show there was fire prior to a tower collapse - a fact that has been scrubbed from all subsequent reports.

Posted by: amazed! Jun 26 2008, 05:49 PM

dMole

Thanks so much for those parts of the NIST regarding 7. I had never read that much detail before.

Man alive, it sure sounds like 7 was the designated command center for the day's activities, eh?

Triage center, handling casualties from several other buildings. Good planning there GS-12. A letter of commendation in your personnel file.

EOM on the upper floors.

In retrospect, the training exercise was extremely successful.

Posted by: CocaineImportAgency Jul 10 2008, 05:28 AM

...sorry if i am being dumb here!.... how could fires have started in No7 if the Towers had`nt fallen yet? blink.gif

...unless they were burning Enron files that is!

Posted by: dMole Jul 10 2008, 06:44 AM

My lingering question is still what is the exact mechanism that enables gravitation (falling debris) to ignite any fire? I didn't see any "flaming debris" in the photos or video, but there was hella dust and paper, plus that one famous passport. I've seen lightning strikes ignite fires many times, but gravity?

Meteorites, satellites, and "space junk" can do such things, but they "fall" much further and faster through Earth's atmosphere and gravitational field.

Of course, much of the WTC1N and WTC2 So debris was observed to have "fallen" upward and sideways, so let's not use logic or the laws of physics here- those clearly will not help in this matter.

I can only think of two things that will eject debris or objects spherically outwards, and one of those is an electromagnetic field.

Posted by: heliweli Jul 10 2008, 06:57 AM

dmole,
I have always wondered how the falling debris started fires in wtc7.
9/11 Blogger has posted the full Barry Jennings inteview yesterday. In it he states that it was very hot in the stairwell - and this was before either of the towers fell!

Posted by: dMole Jul 10 2008, 07:54 AM

I'll wager that the OCT loyalists will say that the "fires [that] were just too intense" caused [melting-err, pancake collapse-errr, "licorice" steel-errrr, weakened steel- yeah that's the ticket, and ummm weakened floor trusses to "buckle" the columns] high-temperature steel debris to penetrate the South Face of WTC7 and start all those fires. [EDIT: let's add pistons and thermal expansion to the list]

Of course this is NOT supported by the either the chronological sequence of events that we have been following here or by the photographic evidence of WTC1N debris "falling" horizontally- I'll have to post that calculation here I guess for the 300 ton chunk of steel mentioned in that long Debate thread.

Speaking of calculations, let's do one here for the impact velocity of the TV tower on WTC1N theoretically falling through open air, just for the sake of OCT argument.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/flobj.html#c2

v = sqrt (2*g*h)

[The boldface means that is a vector quantity that should usually point downward, unless it's NYC on 9/11]

http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?gn

Acceleration due to Earth's gravity (per NIST)
9.80665 m/sec^2 (exact)
32.174048556430446194 ft/sec^2

Height of WTC1N & WTC2 South are ambiguous;

http://www.archiplanet.org/w/index.php?title=World_Trade_Center&redirect=no
"The twin towers, with 110 floors rising 1,353 feet"

http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=15
"Roof 417.0m" [1368.1102362205 ft]

"Antenna [top] 526.3m" [1726.7060367454 ft]

1368 feet agrees with Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center

v = sqrt (2*g*1368 ft) = sqrt (88028.1968503937 ft^2/sec^2) = 296.695461459 ft/sec = 90.4327766527 m/sec = 202.2923600857 mph.

Generally propeller aircraft, helicopters, and race cars don't burst into flames due to heat caused by air drag near 200 mph. This is assuming there was no building below to slow down or stop that TV tower antenna, mind you. Jet aircraft generally don't incinerate either at much higher speeds unless there is a major problem. Now the supersonic realm- that's a different story.

Now would a wind in the 200mph neighborhood heat up a "hot" steel beam or cool it down? This one is open to discussion, but I'd say cool it down, based upon the fact that high speed fans are used for precisely the cooling purpose in industry (a close friend of mine works on industrial fans and large electric motors).

More on "sideways" gravity will follow at a later time...

Posted by: CocaineImportAgency Jul 11 2008, 05:07 AM

...putting this pic` up for easier reference... tweaked a bit in Photoshop!




...anyone know on what floor those Enron files just happened to be stored? dunno.gif

Posted by: dMole Jul 15 2008, 05:03 PM

Here's the falling velocity vs. floor number chart for WTC1N that goes with my post #18 above:

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id3103376383.html

EDIT: The chart and post #18 neglect air friction (since you need to know the area cross-section of the falling object in question and drag coeffiecients, etc.)

Posted by: dMole Jul 27 2008, 07:03 AM

Related "gravitational" trajectory information is at posts #10-13:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=11809&view=findpost&p=10742236

And posts #18 & 20 above:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=6977&view=findpost&p=10746307

Posted by: amazed! Jul 27 2008, 03:33 PM

Awesome work dMole! cheers.gif

Posted by: KP50 Sep 4 2008, 11:33 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jul 10 2008, 10:44 PM) *
My lingering question is still what is the exact mechanism that enables gravitation (falling debris) to ignite any fire? I didn't see any "flaming debris" in the photos or video, but there was hella dust and paper, plus that one famous passport. I've seen lightning strikes ignite fires many times, but gravity?

Meteorites, satellites, and "space junk" can do such things, but they "fall" much further and faster through Earth's atmosphere and gravitational field.

Of course, much of the WTC1N and WTC2 So debris was observed to have "fallen" upward and sideways, so let's not use logic or the laws of physics here- those clearly will not help in this matter.

I can only think of two things that will eject debris or objects spherically outwards, and one of those is an electromagnetic field.

Just wandering through this thread again. I have often wondered what was contained in the dust cloud that caused cars to catch fire. There were dozens of them but as far as I know, no reports of people burning in the dust clouds. There was an interview I read once (and could find again) of a 1st responder running away from the collapse and seeing cars bursting into flames alongside her. So what could have caused a reaction that only seemed to affect metal? Beyond my scientific knowledge so just throwing it out there.

Posted by: lunk Sep 5 2008, 12:05 AM

My little truck has an in-tank gas pump,
this means that there are wires going into a coil
of wire inside my gas tank,
this is a common design for modern vehicle fuel pumps.

If there was an electro-magnetic pulse,
say, from a nearby nuclear device going off,
and the gas tank wasn't filled to the brim,
the vapors could cause it to explode.

A pretty stupid design,
...unless it was intentional.

imo, lunk

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Feb 20 2009, 09:59 AM

QUOTE (KP50 @ May 27 2008, 11:07 PM) *
Bookmark this page

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/index.shtm

as it has some great shots of the towers and also a view of the business side of WTC7. From

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-16.jpg

onwards, you can see shots of WTC7 with what appears to be very bright lights coming from certain floors which seems to indicate which parts were on fire. They roughly match the floor that Jennings claimed to be on when there was an explosion. If you can't locate WTC7, it is to the left of the North Tower.

As a side issue there are also indications of explosions/smoke at various points on the towers themselves.


Here's a zoomed in look at the fires in WTC 7 before the collapses.




http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=218&topic_id=8061&mesg_id=8061&listing_type=search

Posted by: KP50 Feb 23 2009, 06:52 PM

And just to square the circle by quoting from the weasly words of a NIST FAQ page (http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.html)

QUOTE
What caused the fires in WTC 7?Debris from the collapse of WTC 1, which was 370 feet to the south, ignited fires on at least 10 floors in the building at its south and west faces. However, only the fires on some of the lower floors—7 through 9 and 11 through 13—burned out of control. These lower-floor fires—which spread and grew because the water supply to the automatic sprinkler system for these floors had failed—were similar to building fires experienced in other tall buildings. The primary and backup water supply to the sprinkler systems for the lower floors relied on the city’s water supply, whose lines were damaged by the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2. These uncontrolled lower-floor fires eventually spread to the northeast part of WTC 7, where the building’s collapse began.

Posted by: KP50 Feb 24 2009, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (michaelr @ Oct 16 2007, 09:59 AM) *
[Moved from Research by d]

I am looking for more conformation to the time at witch the fire in WTC7 started. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

I have Barry Jennings, and The history channel stating they started before the tower collapse.

I hadn't seen this post until now. So when did the History Channel state there was fire in WTC7 before a tower collapsed? I can find this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf52SayA1w8

which has Sheirer talking about evacuating the OEM but not really giving a reason. This was obviously before the Commission decided on the 3rd plane story as the reason for evacuating the OEM.

Can anyone help with a History Channel link?

Posted by: dMole Feb 24 2009, 03:53 AM

Hey KP in NZ!

History Channel would have "copyright killed" that long ago- can't be them. I think it was the late Barry Jennings BBC? interview. Check these 2 threads that each have videos:

Eye Witness: Death Bodies And Explosions In Wtc-7 Before 9:58
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=13630

Barry Jennings Is [Allegedly] Now Dead, Edited- He Has Passed
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=14697

Might be good to save copies of those too.

Posted by: KP50 Feb 25 2009, 03:42 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Feb 24 2009, 08:53 PM) *
Hey KP in NZ!

History Channel would have "copyright killed" that long ago- can't be them. I think it was the late Barry Jennings BBC? interview. Check these 2 threads that each have videos:

Eye Witness: Death Bodies And Explosions In Wtc-7 Before 9:58
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=13630

Barry Jennings Is [Allegedly] Now Dead, Edited- He Has Passed
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=14697

Might be good to save copies of those too.

I was just wondering aloud about any History Channel programmes from soon after 9/11 - pre-Commission/Omission report. The story of the reason for evacuation of the OEM appears to have changed over time until the Commission report fixed it at "worries about a 3rd plane". Sheirer's quote from the start of this thread about an explosion and fire in WTC7 might have made it into some sort of documentary ......

Posted by: stannrodd Feb 26 2009, 07:13 PM

Just wanted to post these pics I found somewhere ages ago.. maybe relevant to this thread.

I did post them at another forum, originally I was scrutinizing the window washers who are seen on the face of the WTC7 and I was collecting photos of WTC7 perhaps to see if they were up to something naughty.

Then came across these two pics which seem to show .. what could be a fire or other event going on inside. No smoke though, and I guess it could be a reflection ...?





Stann

Posted by: painter Feb 26 2009, 07:22 PM

QUOTE (stannrodd @ Feb 26 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Just wanted to post these pics I found somewhere ages ago.. maybe relevant to this thread.


Thanks, Stann, but at such lo resolution it is impossible to say what is being photographed. Now, if someone could come up with hi-res versions, that might be a help.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Feb 26 2009, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (painter @ Feb 26 2009, 06:22 PM) *
Thanks, Stann, but at such lo resolution it is impossible to say what is being photographed. Now, if someone could come up with hi-res versions, that might be a help.


The resolution isn't that bad.

I pulled the pic into photoshop and it holds up fairly well when you zoom in.



Sure looks like fire to me and the picture does not appear to be doctored.

From a structual POV, you need to attack corners on key floors because that's one of the strongest parts of a building in order to get it to fail properly. The same thing happened in both Towers.

Posted by: stannrodd Feb 26 2009, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Feb 25 2009, 01:20 AM) *
The resolution isn't that bad.

I pulled the pic into photoshop and it holds up fairly well when you zoom in.



Sure looks like fire to me and the picture does not appear to be doctored.

From a structual POV, you need to attack corners on key floors because that's one of the strongest parts of a building in order to get it to fail properly. The same thing happened in both Towers.


I've pulled this from the other forum ... Researched by Ricochet.
Thought it might be good to have a fresh look at the crime scene.

This is the source url for the quote below.


http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5270/


QUOTE
On the morning of September 11, Sheirer got to City Hall at 8 a.m. for a meeting about the Jackie Robinson-Pee Wee Reese memorial planned for Coney Island. "I was in heaven, sitting between Ralph Branca and Joe Black," he remembers. "We were about to select the statue, and then we heard the pop." At first he thought a transformer had exploded in an underground substation. Then he got a flash report from Watch Command in OEM headquarters.

As his driver barreled down Broadway, Sheirer recalls, "my first move was to clear the streets so we could get emergency vehicles in and people out." He radioed the police department and told them to shut down traffic below Canal Street and close every bridge and tunnel in the city.

Down at the scene, he joined Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen and his chiefs Pete Ganci and Bill Feehan -- old friends from Sheirer's 26 years with the New York Fire Department. They were establishing a command post at the base of the burning tower. Then the second airplane hit. "At that point there was no more doubt," he says ruefully. "We were under attack." He picked up one of the three cell phones strapped to his belt and started giving orders: to the Coast Guard to seal the harbor, and to the State Emergency Management Office to send backup search and rescue teams and get the Pentagon to freeze the city's airspace. Then he lost his signal.

As Sheirer helped move the Fire Department command post, he saw a cloud of smoke and debris engulf his own command center, on the twenty-third floor of 7 World Trade Center. His staff was inside sending alerts to representatives of nearly 100 organizations -- everyone from Con Edison to the Department of Health. One of his deputies radioed him to report that the OEM would have to evacuate.


Bold type I have added, (underlined) being the pertinent point. At the time we couldn't clearly assess whether this event was at the command centre on the 23rd. No real pointers other than counting floors down from the top.

Which floor was 47 ?? The roof ? Was the command centre in the corner ??

Why was there "a cloud of smoke and debris" ??

Stann

Posted by: Syxxt3 Feb 27 2009, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (stannrodd @ Feb 26 2009, 07:56 PM) *
I've pulled this from the other forum ... Researched by Ricochet.
Thought it might be good to have a fresh look at the crime scene.

This is the source url for the quote below.


http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5270/




Bold type I have added, (underlined) being the pertinent point. At the time we couldn't clearly assess whether this event was at the command centre on the 23rd. No real pointers other than counting floors down from the top.

Which floor was 47 ?? The roof ? Was the command centre in the corner ??

Why was there "a cloud of smoke and debris" ??

Stann


I also found that picure here:

http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=14


Posted by: KP50 May 5 2009, 09:53 PM

Righto back to my favourite thread.



This is just a snippet of the History Channel doco previously mentioned that was released soon after the event. Yet again someone refers to WTC7 being on fire at 9.30am. This reinforces my theory that in the first few months after 9/11, it was common knowledge that WTC7 was on fire before either tower collapse - but that this fact has been slowly expunged from the records as there was no actual clear video/photographic evidence to back it up.

Posted by: SwingDangler May 7 2009, 12:54 PM

I can add this video http://911truth.ning.com/video/505920:Video:5704# showing what appear to be fires in WTC 7 before any collapse. Here is the video again hosted at a different site: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x46lt4_wtc7brand_news right around :40 seconds into the show. Not really a movie more so than a slide show. I would like to find the pictures they used for the movie.

Posted by: KP50 May 7 2009, 03:53 PM

QUOTE (SwingDangler @ May 8 2009, 04:54 AM) *
I can add this video http://911truth.ning.com/video/505920:Video:5704# showing what appear to be fires in WTC 7 before any collapse. Here is the video again hosted at a different site: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x46lt4_wtc7brand_news right around :40 seconds into the show. Not really a movie more so than a slide show. I would like to find the pictures they used for the movie.

Morning SD - In Post 12 of this very thread, those photos are linked by dMole.

Posted by: dMole Feb 4 2010, 01:49 AM

QUOTE (Syxxt3 @ Feb 27 2009, 05:07 PM) *
I also found that picure here:

http://www.studyof911.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=14


That link has gone 404...

Posted by: Paul Feb 4 2010, 05:56 AM

Hold on if wtc 7 was on fire at 9:30 am before either of the twin towers collapsed at 9:59 am this means that
the collapse of the north tower did not start the fires in wtc 7 as the result of falling debris from the North tower
hitting wtc 7 so this means NIST could be lying about the cause of fires, and doesn't this mean that there
is a high probability that the fires in wtc 7 might have been deliberately light?

Is there any other evidence that would indicate that that wtc 7 was on fire at 9:30 am
any other reports anything?

Posted by: KP50 Feb 4 2010, 06:28 AM

Paul,

I dig into this topic every so often and pretty much all the evidence I have found for fires around 9.30 is contained in this thread.

Sheirer's magazine article.
The testimony of the late Barry Jennings.
Photos appearing to show the fires.
The History Channel clip above.

If anyone else can find anything else, please add it.

Posted by: greenrayriver Feb 4 2010, 09:27 AM

QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Jul 10 2008, 03:28 AM) *
...sorry if i am being dumb here!.... how could fires have started in No7 if the Towers had`nt fallen yet? blink.gif

...unless they were burning Enron files that is!


Where the buildings surrounding WTC's 1, 2 and 7 evacuated just in case they fell over sideways?

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Feb 4 2010, 10:15 AM

QUOTE (greenrayriver @ Feb 4 2010, 08:27 AM) *
Where the buildings surrounding WTC's 1, 2 and 7 evacuated just in case they fell over sideways?

While the Port Authority was telling people in Tower 2 to go back to their offices, WTC 7 was being evacuated. From what I recall, WTC 7 was empty by 9:30 AM.

Posted by: maturin42 Feb 4 2010, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Feb 2 2010, 01:15 PM) *
While the Port Authority was telling people in Tower 2 to go back to their offices, WTC 7 was being evacuated. From what I recall, WTC 7 was empty by 9:30 AM.


Review the testimony of Barry Jennings on Youtube. He is unequivocal about the fact of the explosion in Building 7 occurring before the collapse of either of the twin towers. His statement is a smoking gun in that it exposes the timetable recorded for the events of his rescue and the explosion in building 7 having no explanation related to the subsequent collapse of Bldg 7. Further, in his statement he describes the rescuers who were working on getting him and Hess out of Building 7 as running away twice. They did that first for the collapse of the South tower, and again for the North tower, before they finally broke through and got Barry and Hess out of the building.

The fact that his testimony was credible and badly damaging to the official story has strongly suggest that his mysterious death is just another suspicious circumstance in the large 9/11 picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaKHq2dfCI&fmt=18

Posted by: tnemelckram Feb 12 2010, 12:31 AM

QUOTE
Where the buildings surrounding WTC's 1, 2 and 7 evacuated just in case they fell over sideways?


Why would there be fear in advance of the actual collapse of the Twin Towers collapsing in nay way, including but not limited to falling over sideways? Especially both of them. Remember that no skyscraper, or even part of one, had ever fallen in any way before due to fire. Fear in advance requires knowledge in advance.

Posted by: KP50 Jun 21 2011, 10:02 PM

Found this video, it isn't new but I hadn't seen it before and it belongs on this thread of WTC7 activity prior to WTC1 collapse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGl8HrfY6v0

It shows a bright flash in the top third of the building on the side facing away from the twin towers.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 22 2011, 03:34 PM

QUOTE (KP50 @ Jun 21 2011, 09:02 PM) *
Found this video, it isn't new but I hadn't seen it before and it belongs on this thread of WTC7 activity prior to WTC1 collapse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGl8HrfY6v0

It shows a bright flash in the top third of the building on the side facing away from the twin towers.

If the flash isn't an artifact on the film or falling glass or aluminum reflecting the light, it would come up on other videos. Without access to the original film, I think finding two separate sources of this event, would be the only other way to confirm that it is a flash from inside the building.

Posted by: KP50 Jun 22 2011, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 23 2011, 07:34 AM) *
If the flash isn't an artifact on the film or falling glass or aluminum reflecting the light, it would come up on other videos. Without access to the original film, I think finding two separate sources of this event, would be the only other way to confirm that it is a flash from inside the building.

I don't know of any other videos taken from this angle. There was no glass falling at that time. I just added it as one more piece of the puzzle.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 22 2011, 07:01 PM

QUOTE (KP50 @ Jun 22 2011, 04:38 PM) *
I don't know of any other videos taken from this angle. There was no glass falling at that time. I just added it as one more piece of the puzzle.

Here's clear evidence of cutter charges in strategic locations, going off ahead of the debris cloud.



Also, take note of the large panels that were the first to come down. The columns are cut clean across. These are the panels from the mechanical floors. Setting the columns all the same height on those floors created a seam that ran around the perimeter of the building. It was considered a weakness in the design when they built the Towers. It was a weakness a planned CD would take advantage of.

Posted by: SanderO Jun 27 2011, 07:19 PM

Yes! The continuous panel / column joints at the top and bottom of the mech floors were an inherent weakness in the design... which is where the facade "broke" regardless of how it came down.

The problem with exploding large multi-panel assemblies is that the exposives would have to attack multiple joints... severing them... and push the assembly outward over many floors at the exact same instant... or the assembles would break apart into separate panels. Some of the assemblies were as wide as the building and 9 or 12 stories high. The come off as huge sheets. How you accomplish that with explosives eludes me. But perhaps you have some theory about how it was done.

Posted by: KP50 Jun 27 2011, 09:59 PM

This thread is in the WTC7 section and specifically devoted to events at WTC7 prior to the collapses of WTC1&2. The video I posted shows a bright flash on the side of WTC7 which didn't face the towers.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Jun 27 2011, 11:11 PM

QUOTE (KP50 @ Jun 27 2011, 08:59 PM) *
This thread is in the WTC7 section and specifically devoted to events at WTC7 prior to the collapses of WTC1&2. The video I posted shows a bright flash on the side of WTC7 which didn't face the towers.

Sorry about going off topic. If you wish, maybe move the Towers discussion to the appropriate place?


Posted by: onesliceshort Jun 28 2011, 08:25 AM

QUOTE (KP50 @ Jun 22 2011, 03:02 AM) *
Found this video, it isn't new but I hadn't seen it before and it belongs on this thread of WTC7 activity prior to WTC1 collapse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGl8HrfY6v0

It shows a bright flash in the top third of the building on the side facing away from the twin towers.


Check out this vid @01:55 onwards. It's later than your vid KP but there are flashes from the same area.
The author of the YT site claims it may be alarm flashes because they are pretty intermittent but there's also a flash to the right of it around the same floor.

Posted by: KP50 Jun 28 2011, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 29 2011, 12:25 AM) *
Check out this vid @01:55 onwards. It's later than your vid KP but there are flashes from the same area.
The author of the YT site claims it may be alarm flashes because they are pretty intermittent but there's also a flash to the right of it around the same floor.

Which vid OSS?

Posted by: onesliceshort Jun 28 2011, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (KP50 @ Jun 28 2011, 09:04 PM) *
Which vid OSS?


wacko.gif

Sorry man. This one:



Posted by: KP50 Jun 28 2011, 06:29 PM

Thanks - I see the flashes. After collapse but it is possible these were happening throughout the whole 8 hours prior to WTC7 coming down.

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