Jet Engines |
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Jet Engines |
 Jul 23 2008, 10:08 AM
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#1
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 Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294  |
I should have started one of these long ago, but I recently found the following excellent page:
http://www.solarnavigator.net/aviation_and.../jet_engine.htm NASA has a lot of information on jet and rocket engines (when/if you can locate it). I've posted links to some of that in the "Flight Test and Limits" thread near here. If Rolls, Pratt-Whitney, GE need separate sections, the staff can split those out later. Feel free to post your jet engine info here. |
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Jul 23 2008, 04:12 PM
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#2
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 Group: Admin Posts: 9,266 Joined: 13-August 06 Member No.: 1 |
Try to find out at what speed compressor stalls start to occur on the jet engines reportedly used on 9/11.
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Jul 23 2008, 07:24 PM
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#4
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
For AA11, I have researched:
B767-223ER #N334AA B# 22332, GE CF6-80A2, Mode 3A 1443 off 08:20:38 http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NN...p;cmndfind.y=14 ------------ http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/cf6/cf6-80a.html http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/com...n_turbofan.html http://www.geaviation.com/engines/commerci...n_turbofan.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CF6 CF6-80 Type Certificate Data Sheet http://www.content.airbusworld.com/SITES/C...E13NE_GEi16.pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...;FILE/E13NE.pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...FF?OpenDocument ------------------------ There are many regulatory and other documents at FAA. http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/ Type Certificate Data Sheets http://rgl.faa.gov/TCDS ------------------------------ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Manufacturer Model Application(s) Thrust Thrust SFC SFC Airflow OPR FPR BPR Thrust SFC Cruise Cruise TIT Number Fan LPC HPC HPT IPT LPT Fan Length Width/ Dry Notes Refs (dry) (wet) (dry) (wet) (static) (static) (static) (static) (cruise) (cruise) Speed Altitude Spools Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Diameter Diameter Weight 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [lbf] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/s] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [M] [ft] [K] [in] [in] [in] [lb] GE CF6-80A2 767-200/-200ER/-300 50,000 - 0.349 - 1460 28.4 1.70 4.59 11,045 0.623 0.80 35,000 2 1 3B 14 2 - 4 86.4 157.4 98.0 8,496 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
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Jul 23 2008, 08:10 PM
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#5
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
For AA77, my research indicates:
B757-223, # N644AA, B# 24602, Rolls RB211-535E4B-37?, Mode 3A 6553 off 08:50:38 EDT http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NN...p;cmndfind.y=16 --------------------------------------- http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aerospace...535/default.jsp http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family...pf_200tech.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_RB211 EDIT: Although I'm suspicious after Purdue's recommendation of Aerospaceweb.org, here's an analysis of RB211 engine stuff: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml Powerplant Limitations http://www.757.org.uk/limits/lim2.html FAA Type Data Sheet http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...;FILE/E12EU.pdf German RB211 Wiki http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_RB211 http://www.shanaberger.com/engines/RB211-535.htm http://www.deagel.com/Turbofan-Engines/RB2...a001364003.aspx ------------------------ Engine Emissions Data http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=70...=68&gid=718 ------------------------ RB211 Industrial Turbine http://www.rolls-royce.com/energy/products...211/default.jsp ------------------------ Manufacturer Model Application(s) Thrust Thrust SFC SFC Airflow OPR FPR BPR Thrust SFC Cruise Cruise TIT Number Fan LPC HPC HPT IPT LPT Fan Length Width/ Dry Notes Refs (dry) (wet) (dry) (wet) (static) (static) (static) (static) (cruise) (cruise) Speed Altitude Spools Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Diameter Diameter Weight 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [lbf] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/s] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [M] [ft] [K] [in] [in] [in] [lb] Rolls-Royce RB.211-535E4B-37 757-200/-200ET/-300, 757-200ER/-200F (option), Tu-214, Tu-330 (Tu-204-330) (proposed) 43,100 - - 1151 25.8 4.30 3 1 6 6 1 1 3 74.1 117.9 7,264 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
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Jul 23 2008, 08:56 PM
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#6
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
UA93 is listed as:
B757-222 #N591UA B# 28142, PW 2040 or 2037?, Mode 3A 1527 http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NN...p;cmndfind.y=16 -------------------------------------------------- Pratt-Whitney PW2037 Type Data Sheet http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...;FILE/E17NE.pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...33?OpenDocument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_PW2000 NASA Technical Article http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntr..._1987012601.pdf Engine Emissions Info http://www.qinetiq.com/docs/aed/1PW039-20020702.pdf http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/702/1PW039_01102004.pdf http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/702/4PW072_01102004.pdf ------------------------------------- http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_jul_aug97.pdf B757 Engine Thrust Comparison http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/t...ad.main/170793/ ----------------------- http://www.jet-engine.net/PW2000.gif (IMG:http://www.jet-engine.net/PW2000.gif) ----- Manufacturer Model Application(s) Thrust Thrust SFC SFC Airflow OPR FPR BPR Thrust SFC Cruise Cruise TIT Number Fan LPC HPC HPT IPT LPT Fan Length Width/ Dry Notes Refs (dry) (wet) (dry) (wet) (static) (static) (static) (static) (cruise) (cruise) Speed Altitude Spools Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Diameter Diameter Weight 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [lbf] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/s] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [M] [ft] [K] [in] [in] [in] [lb] Pratt Whitney PW2037 757-200/-200ET 36,600 - 0.335 - 1210 27.9 1.63 5.80 6,500 0.582 0.85 35,000 2 1 4B 12 2 - 5 78.5 141.4 84.8 7,185 Notes 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 http://www.jet-engine.net/civtfnotes.html#PW2037 |
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Jul 23 2008, 09:42 PM
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#7
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
UA175 is listed as:
B767-222 #N612UA B# 21873, PW JT9D-7R4D, Mode 3A 1470 > 3020 > 3321 http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NN...p;cmndfind.y=10 ------------------------------ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_JT9D FAA Type Data Sheet http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...6;FILE/E3NE.pdf http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...22?OpenDocument ------------------- More references Lauda B767-300ER Incident Report (had JT9D-7R4) http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publicatio...r/LaudaRPT.html http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_feb98.pdf -------------------------------- Manufacturer Model Application(s) Thrust Thrust SFC SFC Airflow OPR FPR BPR Thrust SFC Cruise Cruise TIT Number Fan LPC HPC HPT IPT LPT Fan Length Width/ Dry Notes Refs (dry) (wet) (dry) (wet) (static) (static) (static) (static) (cruise) (cruise) Speed Altitude Spools Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Stgs Diameter Diameter Weight 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [lbf] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/lbf hr] [lb/s] [lbf] [lb/lbf hr] [M] [ft] [K] [in] [in] [in] [lb] Pratt Whitney JT9D-7R4D 767-200/-200ER/-200ET/-200PC/-300 48,000 - 0.343 - 1585 23.4 4.90 11,200 0.615 0.85 35,000 2 1 4B 11 2 - 4 93.4 153.6 8,905 Notes 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 http://www.jet-engine.net/civtfnotes.html#JT9D-7R4D |
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Jul 24 2008, 07:40 AM
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#8
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Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,170 Joined: 29-September 07 From: Hampshire, UK. Member No.: 2,274 |
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 21 2008, 06:12 PM)  Try to find out at what speed compressor stalls start to occur on the jet engines reportedly used on 9/11. I would think that the commercial equivalent of military Pilots Notes for aircaft type would include specifics on the operating limits of these engines. Although not a pilot I did read with considerable interest such documents for the aircaft being operated on the units to which I was assigned and relevant information of this type was included. Also special notes under 'Engine Handling'. I suspect Maturin will attest to the fact that the correct handling of the engines, e.g. throttle usage under different flight conditions and AUW was most important. I do understand that computer technology both for the design of and in the control of engines e.g. FADECs, means that modern engines are far more tolerant of miss-handling - they won't allow it. Edit: PS, unless the FADECs were 'tweeked'. This post has been edited by Omega892R09: Jul 24 2008, 07:41 AM |
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Jul 24 2008, 10:24 AM
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#9
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
For UA175, from the FAA TCDS #E3NE
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...6;FILE/E3NE.pdf JT9D-7R4D --- Type "Turbofan, dual axial 16 stage compressor, annular combustion chamber, and 6 stage turbine." [pg. 2 of 9] Maximum continuous at sea level, static thrust, lb.= 45,800 Takeoff static thrust at sea level, lb. Dry (5 min.) (See NOTE 13)= 48,000 NOTE 13 "-7R4D Bascially the same as JT9D-7 (see TCDS E20EA) except incorporates an improved fan, higher efficiency 4 stage LPC, single crystal first stage turbine blades, improved use of turbine cooling air and a supervisory Electronic Engine Control. Takeoff rating of 48,000 lb at and below 92ºF ambient temperature, sea level static." [pg. 8 of 9] ---- Dry weight= 8935 lbs [pg. 3. of 9] Width= 96.00 in Maximum length= 154.256 in [pg. 3 of 9] -------------- NOTE 1. Maximum permissible engine operating speeds for the engine rotors are as follows: JT9D-7R4D+ Low pressure rotor (N1), rpm 3770 High pressure rotor (N2), rpm 8000 + Engines converted from JT9D-7R4E4 per Service Bulletin JT9D-7R4-72-331 (EC86EA123) and operated to either JT9D-7R4D or JT9D-7R4E ratings will have maximum permissible rotor speeds as follows: Low Pressure Rotor (N1), rpm 3810 High Pressure Rotor (N2), rpm 8080 JT9D-7R4D1 Low pressure rotor (N1), rpm 3810 High pressure rotor (N2), rpm 8000 [pg. 5 of 9] For inadvertent exceedances of certified overspeed limits, see Chapter 72-00-00 of the appropriate maintenance manual. ----------------------------- CERTIFICATION BASIS FAR 33 effective February 1, 1965, as amended by 33-1, 33-2, 33-3, and 33-4, and Special Condition No. 33-8-EA-3. Type Certificate No. E3NE, issued December 12, 1974 (JT9D-59A, 70, 70A); and subsequent revisions issued March 19, 1976 (JT9D-59B, 70B); issued October 31, 1978 (JT9D-7Q, 7Q1); issued October 22, 1979 (JT9D-7Q3); issued June 4, 1980 (JT9D-59D, 70D, 7Q2); issued November 25, 1980 (JT9D-7R4A, 7R4D); issued April 1, 1981 (JT9D-7R4D1, 7R4E1); issued July 23, 1982 (JT9D-7R4G2, 7R4H1, 7R4H2); issued March 29, 1985 (JT9D-7R4E4). Dates of Application for Type Certificate: May 2, 1973 (JT9D-70); September 4, 1974 (JT9D-59A); October 17, 1974 (JT9D-70A); February 20, 1976 (JT9D-59B, 70B); October 28, 1977 (JT9D-7Q); June 15, 1978 (JT9D-7Q1); July 6, 1978 (JT9D-59D, 70D); August 14, 1978 (JT9D-7Q2); October 10, 1979 (JT9D-7Q3); February 14, 1979 (JT9D-7R4A, 7R4D); December 22, 1980 (JT9D-7R4D1); February 10, 1981 (JT9D-7R4E1); February 14, 1979 (JT9D-7R4G2, 7R4H1, 7R4H2); and October 11, 1984 (JT9D-7R4E4). |
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Jul 24 2008, 10:54 AM
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#10
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
The FAR 33 (transport engines) is discussed at:
Post #10: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10393891 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-....16&idno=14 Title 14: Aeronautics and Space [of CFR] PART 33—AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: AIRCRAFT ENGINES Turbines are covered in Subparts E & F Specifically, see FAR Section 33.83, Vibration Test. "b. The surveys shall cover the ranges of power or thrust, and both the physical and corrected rotational speeds for each rotor system, corresponding to operations throughout the range of ambient conditions in the declared flight envelope, from the minimum rotational speed up to 103 percent of the maximum physical and corrected rotational speed permitted for rating periods of two minutes or longer, and up to 100 percent of all other permitted physical and corrected rotational speeds, including those that are overspeeds. If there is any indication of a stress peak arising at the highest of those required physical or corrected rotational speeds, the surveys shall be extended sufficiently to reveal the maximum stress values present, except that the extension need not cover more than a further 2 percentage points increase beyond those speeds." According to General Electric's "Engines 101, Safety" page, their engines are tested "up to 105% of the manufacturer's specified redline speed. http://www.geae.com/engines/index.html |
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Sep 26 2008, 06:26 AM
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#12
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Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,170 Joined: 29-September 07 From: Hampshire, UK. Member No.: 2,274 |
QUOTE (dMole @ Sep 24 2008, 05:16 AM) Chicken gun at a Rolls Royce Trent 500 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAc7wab-l4&NR=1 Which reminds me of the tale of bird v aircraft windscreen tests being carried out at one of our experimental establishments, either Boscombe Down or Farnborough. On one series of tests the bird fired from the gun shot over the target and across a perimeter track causing a truck driver to lose control and swerve off into the grass. When quiried about it he mentioned that it wasn't the bird going across his windscreen that caused his surprise but the fact that the bird was flying backwards. A related tale is to do with testers in the US not being able to replicate the windscreen successes of their conterparts in the UK. A UK team went to the US to compare methodology and quickly discovered the problem. The UK scientists advised that when they used frozen birds that they were thawed out first! This post has been edited by Omega892R09: Sep 26 2008, 06:26 AM |
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Oct 14 2008, 04:57 AM
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#13
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
From related thread at:
Daniel Davis, Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer, and NORAD Tac Director http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=5645 "Statement to Patriotsquestion 9/11 on 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire. Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed. Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon? If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there." -- Captain Daniel Davis http://patriotsquestion911.com/ |
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Oct 14 2008, 01:43 PM
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#14
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Group: Student Forum Pilot Posts: 52 Joined: 17-January 07 From: PA Member No.: 464 |
QUOTE (dMole @ Oct 12 2008, 06:57 AM) From related thread at: Did you get my PM about the eingine sim? This post has been edited by ULTIMA1: Oct 14 2008, 01:44 PM |
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Oct 29 2008, 11:58 PM
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#15
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
Here is some traceability info on the B757-223 alleged to have been "AA77:"
http://www.b757.info/CN/24602.htm -------------- Also the B757-222 alleged to have been "UA93:" http://www.b757.info/Accidents/28142%20N591UA.htm -------------- Aidan Monaghan's FOIA on serial numbers at 911blogger.com FAA Withholds Pre-9/11 ID Confirming Aircraft Serial Number Data Of 9/11 Planes http://www.911blogger.com/node/13149 |
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Oct 30 2008, 12:16 AM
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#16
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
Here are a few links on the B767-200 alleged to have been "UA175" (WTC2 South):
http://www.planespotters.net/Production_Li.../767/21873.html http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b767-21873.htm Photos of UA175: http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.sear...inct_entry=true ------------------------ Info on "AA11" serial numbers is strangely scarce, except for that Chowdry "22332 for sale" business a while back: http://www.need2know.eu/?p=521 Hmmm... Also, the NTSB search pages came up rather empty for all 4 planes tonight. |
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Nov 8 2008, 11:18 PM
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#17
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
Here is an article from the Jan 2000 Air International
Military Jet Engines http://engines.fighter-planes.com/jet_engine.htm |
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Feb 5 2009, 06:37 AM
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#18
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
Thanks to O892's post #4 at:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10750896 Here is a Pratt-Whitney 2037 series: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...037-cutaway.jpg Although it looks fairly difficult to locate specific models, here is that good resource for technical engine drawings: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...ys/default.aspx by tag: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...gs/default.aspx ------------------------------- CFM tags: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...fm/default.aspx General Electric tags: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...ge/default.aspx Pratt & Whitney tags: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...pw/default.aspx Rolls-Royce tags: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photo...ce/default.aspx |
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Feb 22 2009, 10:21 PM
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#19
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Group: Global Mod Posts: 5,019 Joined: 2-October 07 From: USA, a Federal corporation Member No.: 2,294 |
An old related thread is at:
Photo Analysis Of Pentagon Engine, Photo analysis Pentagon Engine Rolls Royce RB-211 http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=9037 |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 20th May 2013 - 04:01 AM |
