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The Sockpuppets Invading P4t, Like cockroaches, they are arriving

bill
post Mar 10 2014, 06:57 PM
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Wow

NP a real blast from the past -- another member that goes back to the first 150 that registered here


your point is well taken

here in Wisconsin the number of flights is rather small

interestingly enough there are frequently jets that have 'normal' contrails that evaporate within minutes right next to the persistent geo-engineering ones that last for hours

I have checked their altitudes frequently by observing a 45 or 60 degree azimuth to the trail and then getting into the car and calculating the altitude -- consistently it is 35,000 feet or about 7 miles by car

anyway good to 'hear' from you NP
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bill
post Mar 11 2014, 11:35 AM
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I am going to edit the complete list a bit but the full 25 are here

http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-...disinformation/

25 Rules for Disinformation

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit.

3. Create rumor mongers.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run.

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

10. Associate opponent charges with old news.

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions.

12. Enigmas have no solution.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact.

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best for items qualifying for rule 10.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won’t have to address the issue.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can “argue” with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how “sensitive they are to criticism”.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the “play dumb” rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body.

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.

23. Create bigger distractions.

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or other threats.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot.


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bill
post Mar 11 2014, 12:00 PM
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quote from rob
Bill, you are a pilot.

Are you familiar with pressurization systems?

If so, are you willing to debate me with regard to airliners who fly through higher concentrations of "chemtrails" at altitude daily with cabins full of passengers?

But to answer your question, sure, I am willing to "debate" Quest on such a topic. And I have told him what he needs to do to provide support for his argument, including the fact I have offered my services to obtain such proof.

From what I have seen so far, "Quest" gets very upset when others ask for actual evidence and chain of custody... and has attacked others calling them trolls and shills.

In short, debating "Quest" on such a topic is like debating a 15 year old on how to drive a car in which the 15 year old knowledge is derived mostly from playing GTA on a PS3.

Quest has absolutely zero aeronautical knowledge, and gets frustrated when put in a tight spot in which he cannot answer. The same goes for JimMac.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated,

But you do have some aeronautical knowledge. So at least you know the language a bit....

So Bill, wanna debate me on "chemtrails"?

quote from rob

In other words, you don't know how aircraft pressurization systems operate.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated,

Bill, as with 9/11 (linking parts recovered to the aircraft), anytime you get samples taken from an aircraft, please provide the tail numbers and crew names. Until then you have nothing but theories, and no chain of custody.


We already know Weather modification is a fact... but it has not been proven such operations are being performed on a large scale for nefarious purposes.

I have seen Kristen's presentation. It was interesting, but she didn't provide any evidence linking "chemtrails" to a specific aircraft, on a specific date, altitudes, origin airport, destination... names.... nothing.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the “play dumb” rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon).

Again, thousands of flights are airborne daily. If they are flying through high concentrations of "chemtrails" at altitude, there would be thousands of people dead or dying in correlation to air travel.

We have pilots with 25-30000 hours total flight time and in good health. How is that possible if they spend a good portion of their lives flying through chemicals sprayed in high concentrations at their altitudes?

Are the chemicals somehow benign and safe to breathe as they come out of the aircraft nozzles at altitude, while getting sucked into thousands of other aircraft engines flying through the materials, compressed, and pumped into cabins..... but somehow become more toxic when they hit the ground spread out over a wide area?

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.


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bill
post Mar 11 2014, 12:08 PM
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NBC news? Really?














laughing1.gif

How often is the air "refreshed" on the ground while you are standing outside?

More or less than being inside a pressurized cabin?

Are the concentration levels of "chemtrails" more dangerous to humans when they reach the ground? Or are the concentration levels more dangerous if flying through something like this...

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the “play dumb” rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by

Are the "chemtrail" crews who fly such "criss-cross" patterns in the sky wearing O2 masks? Or do they just breath the air (and "chemicals") sucked into the engines, compressed, and then dumped into the cabin while waiting for it to "refresh"... with more "chemicals"?

lol

What about all the other airplanes flying through such high concentrations of "chemicals". Do the pilots drop the masks for passengers when they see such upcoming mayhem? And then ask the passengers to stow their masks after they pass through and a cabin "refresh"? What if they are stuck in a widespread "chemtrail" operation for more than an hour? 2 hours? 3? What then?

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad.


Please bill..... save it.

Again, this theory is very easily proven. All one needs to do is go up there and fly through the stuff. Come back and test the samples. Then we will all have conclusive proof either way. It seems proponents of "chemtrails" do not want make such an effort and would rather argue with people endlessly on the internet asking "Why aren't there more Pilots supporting Chemtrail Theories!?"

Well, I think you have your answer....

Get samples, get tail numbers, get crew names... origin airport... destination.... and then you may find more support for your theories. Until then, you are spinning your wheels.... but hey.. .feel free to discuss it here if you wish.. .that is why I created the forum section for "chemtrails". Please be familiar with the forum rules and have respect for this forum/organization... because as easily as I created it... I can also take it away... and show you the door.

Have fun!

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely.
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bill
post Mar 11 2014, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 10 2014, 12:10 PM) *
It is Ice.... it is an example of what an airplane looks like when flying through solid visible particles.




For the same reason people like you claim to see them in the air.



Do you think these are chemicals?



And if so... Are those concentration levels of "chemtrails" more dangerous to humans who fly through the above.... Or are the concentration levels more dangerous if standing on the ground underneath them....? Second time asked....

Again...
Are the "chemtrail" crews who fly such "criss-cross" patterns in the sky wearing O2 masks? Or do they just breath the air (and "chemicals") sucked into the engines, compressed, and then dumped into the cabin while waiting for it to "refresh"... with more "chemicals"?

What about all the other airplanes flying through such high concentrations of "chemicals". Do the pilots drop the masks for passengers when they see such upcoming mayhem? And then ask the passengers to stow their masks after they pass through and a cabin "refresh"? What if they are stuck in a widespread "chemtrail" operation for more than an hour? 2 hours? 3? What then?

Why do you evade these questions?

How would they get airspeed readings? Do the pitot-tubes have HEPA filters as well? Or perhaps they just turn on the Pitot anti-ice and melt away the chemicals? lol

AOA vanes? TAT probes, FADEC probes? All have HEPA filters?

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation,





Are you now claiming that the particles/chemicals get through the HEPA filters and enter the cabin and the lungs of the passengers and crew? If so, why did you bring up the HEPA filters in the first place?


13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact.


"comparing them to crop dusters is ridiculous"

No, it isn't.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.


This discussion would not exist if I did not allow it. Again... this is Pilots For 9/11 Truth. Do you know how many of our Core members absolutely despise such a topic and think it is utterly ridiculous to even discuss?


5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.



This is my "home". I am already here. Do you allow people to come into your home and shit on your floor? Maybe you do... but we have a higher standard on this forum and within our organization.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.

Again, let me know if you need tips in building your own "home"..


Bill, if you evade my questions again... on mod preview you go... until you answer...



24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 11 2014, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (bill @ Mar 10 2014, 06:57 PM) *
Wow

NP a real blast from the past -- another member that goes back to the first 150 that registered here



anyway good to 'hear' from you NP



Pssst.. Bill... NP1Mike joined this forum a little less than 4 months ago.... (25 Nov 2013), it is under his userID in his posts, just like yours.... (23 Oct 2006).

He is not a member who registered here within the "first 150".

Attention to details is not your strong suit huh, Bill?

When you get done learning that, maybe I'll teach you how to actually use the quote function/tags of this forum, since it is clear you still don't know how after 7 years on this forum. Most people can figure it out themselves, but clearly you need a lesson or two.... Let me know and we can set up a time...

After that... perhaps I will take some time and discuss how wrong you are in your claims that we are trying to suppress the truth. In short, why would I recently create a forum section dedicated to discussing chemtrails if I want to suppress the truth? In fact, anyone who actually reads my comments on "chemtrails", will understand I have offered my services in pursuit of the truth, with any one of you riding shotgun... and how to go about obtaining conclusive proof.

For example... the proofs are not "impossible". Anyone can go up there and gather samples of the alleged visible "chemicals" providing a conclusive chain of custody, unlike 9/11 where much of the evidence is classified due to "National Security". In other words, we don't need an Act Of Congress to go fly at FL350 where you claim "artificially created persistent cloud formations induced by the chemical actions of Aluminum and Barium salts" are being sprayed.

The proponents of "chemtrails" make excuses and would rather argue on the internet instead of funding a research project/mission which would provide conclusive proof either way. I wonder why that is....



@NP1Mike

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Mar 10 2014, 04:29 PM) *
(I am replying in this thread simply because it is easiest to do, but isn't the topic of chemtrails supposed to go in the new chemtrail forum?)


Good point... I will move this to the "chemtrail" forum.

QUOTE
I am not going to come down on the side of either one of you, as I have not studied chemtrails to any degree yet.

However, is it not possible that both of you gentlemen are correct?

ie. most/all of the 'chemtrails' we see in the skies are simply harmless water-based particles and the more harmful chemtrails are limited to strategic areas that busy air traffic never flies through?



Look at this radar in real time...

http://flightradar24.com/

Zoom out to the entire USA. And then contemplate your theory that "the more harmful chemtrails are limited to strategic areas that busy air traffic never flies through...."

In case you are unable to view the above linked radar tracking, the entire USA is saturated with air traffic at all different types of altitudes at any given time of the day. Also keep in mind "chemicals" sprayed in the atmosphere do not stay in one exclusive region. Just watch a Monday Weather map compared to a Friday weather map for such proof...lol.... And according to people like Bill, all those passengers/crew are flying through such chemicals, being sucked into the engines, then compressed and pumped into the cabin.

Enjoy your next flight! smile.gif
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hanky
post Mar 11 2014, 07:00 PM
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It seems that I am accused of being a lying troll. Apparently this is because I don't post frequently. I don't post frequently, but I do look at every post that comes into my inbox. When I have something to add that can either halt the stupid trajectory we, as a nation, are all being railroaded into, or something to help put the perps in the hot seat, I will share.
I am here to learn and spread good info. I am a core member of North Texans For 9/11 Truth, and thanks to me, many people have at least heard of your work, which I consider quite worthwhile, although unfairly marginalized by so many Truther luminaries.

The reason I made my short, misunderstood comment recently is because I had been thinking about commenting on all the distracting garbage that suddenly heated up this site. I sincerely don't know how you can deal with it. Sometimes strange people come to our meetings, but they always disappear quickly, maybe because we are so small and they are just checking on us.
http://www.meetup.com/9-11-249/
http://northtexansfor911truth.blogspot.com/

I am very interested in getting this chemtrail thing cleared up. I have been watching this for about 5 yrs here. They blast us horribly right here in the urban area of Dallas. Not every day, but in a time pattern that I can't figure out. Usually we will get a morning show, but sometimes it is worse at dusk. The weather can be hot or cold, and they may, or may not, appear. Although it looks outrageous and obvious to me, I still have niggling doubts about the deliberate nature of this mess, only because of the sheer volume of material, number of flights, and people that would need to be secretive. Even this one spot, which must be a fraction of 1% of the worldwide activity, it seems impossible.

So for now, I look to people with more aviation expertise than me to clear it up. The only idea I had was to get a log of suspicious flights and trace their origin. Can multiple cameras triangulate, and determine altitude, which would also help with temp, humidity, speed? I am ready to challenge them head on, by name, but I have few skills to lead the charge.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 11 2014, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (hanky @ Mar 11 2014, 07:00 PM) *
It seems that I am accused of being a lying troll.



hanky,

Don't sweat it... people like JimMac, Quest.. .and apparently now "bill", have a stick up their ass because we are asking for conclusive proof of their claims.

Again, none of the people accused as "sockpuppets" by "JimMac" in the original post... are sockpuppets. None of the people accused, including "Kozer1" are "trolls". In fact, it was offensive that "JimMac" made such an accusation.

JimMac did not come to me first, in which I can conclusively prove whether or not a user is a sockpuppet. Instead, he made frivolous accusations. When "JimMac" was told they are not sockpuppets, his ego couldn't take it and he left..... oh well...
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marklookingup
post Mar 12 2014, 03:31 AM
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Well, I guess this is as good a place as any to make my first post.

About ten years ago, my neighbor and I were watching a full moon rising up over the Cascade mountains. We had a horizon to horizon view and it was a clear night as far as clouds go.

We looked to the north and there was a brilliant white trail coming from the back of a large jet. When the jet reached the center of the moon, the
trail ended. I joked to my neighbor that he must have ran out of spray. The jet continued flying due south.

We looked north again and there was another jet flying directly underneath the trail. His flashing red light was reflecting off the trail and when he was approaching the moon, he climbed up to the same altitude as the previous jet. As he came to the end of the trail, he started laying his own brilliant white trail, making a perfect splice, and continued on the same path as the other jet. Then we watched him fly across the horizon until he was out of sight.

That was proof enough for me that there is something more than normal contrails happening up there.
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hanky
post Mar 12 2014, 11:50 PM
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Rob? What happened to the post I made yesterday?
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hanky
post Mar 13 2014, 12:26 AM
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By the way, I mentioned I have been observing these chemtrail patterns here in Dallas for 5 years now. I might add that I have lived in this neighborhood for 40 years, and the sky was not like this until recently. I am not a pilot, but I am a professional artist and an avid sky viewer and rainbow studier. The sickly looking odd rainbows are definitely a recent phenomenon in my life*. The last 2 days have been pristine blue, like we used to get for a whole week at a time in the old days. It was wonderful. We never get more than 2 or 3 in a row anymore. I am keenly aware of this, as we never had the cloudless clear blue where I was raised. Ironically, I find the lack of chemtrails to be good evidence that something nefarious is afoot. Same weather, as far as I can tell, but no chemtrails. We get them in summer and winter, so I doubt relatively minor variation in temperature and humidity would have such a drastic effect on accidental contrails. We have major airports here with full schedules, so the traffic is consistent, but on rare days like today it leaves no mark.

Anyway, I am glad you are looking into this chemtrail subject. Our 9/11 group has to curb off-topic discussions but we allow this subject as relevant. The secrecy and lies are what we oppose. As you said, this topic should be easier to do original research on, as it is on-going and so widespread and vast. Perhaps a well-meaning culprit will leak info as the Global Warming narrative continues to break down. But we shouldn't require that, as these planes and their alleged chemical loads must take off and land and be stored somewhere. Also, I am all for direct collection of trail samples by another plane, with a strong evidence chain.

* I want to attach some recent pics I took in my driveway. Cheap camera, no photoshop, but very clear anomalous rainbows. I don't know how to do that here.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 13 2014, 07:04 AM
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QUOTE (hanky @ Mar 12 2014, 11:50 PM) *
Rob? What happened to the post I made yesterday?



This one?
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10811998
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hanky
post Mar 13 2014, 06:53 PM
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Hah! I figured out the multi-page thing, but I guess not before I sent off my "where is my post?" post. How embarrassing. In a similar vein, I have no shame, how do I post the pics of the sky I took from my driveway? Insert image seems to require a place I can't use.
I got another one today, and it really doesn't look like pure ice, but maybe others can look too. Also the trails were low as judged by their movement against the trees and their apparent size and clarity and nearness to the horizon.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 13 2014, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (hanky @ Mar 13 2014, 06:53 PM) *
Hah! I figured out the multi-page thing, but I guess not before I sent off my "where is my post?" post. How embarrassing. In a similar vein, I have no shame, how do I post the pics of the sky I took from my driveway? Insert image seems to require a place I can't use.
I got another one today, and it really doesn't look like pure ice, but maybe others can look too. Also the trails were low as judged by their movement against the trees and their apparent size and clarity and nearness to the horizon.


In order to insert an image, it must be in the form of an image url extension... for example .jpg, .bmp... etc.

Which means you need to upload it to something like imageshack or photobucket.

After you get done with that, you need to wrap the image url in image [img] tags....

For example....

(just a quick search i did...)
CODE
[img]http://www.scenicreflections.com/ithumbs/hot%20lady%20Wallpaper__yvt2.jpg[/img]


Which turns out to be this....



Enjoy! smile.gif
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