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Crawl Spaces Between Wtc Floors

dMz
post Jun 4 2008, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Roark @ Jun 4 2008, 07:47 PM) *
That's the best you can do?

In any case, it is clear that the premise of a "Crawl Space" above the ceiling is a non-starter.

No, FYI that's NOT the best I can do...

Nice try at evasion, but..

Answer the 2 challenges Roark.

Or is it that you're at the "end of your rope" as it were???

It will not be ad hominem when you have publicly been shown to have earned those labels that I hear "blowing on the wind"- it will be demonstrated fact. Enjoy your fate.

P.S. Sorry Tony for hijacking your thread. Perhaps I can buy you a lemonade later. wink.gif
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grizz
post Jun 4 2008, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE
In any case, it is clear that the premise of a "Crawl Space" above the ceiling is a non-starter.


Why? Because you said so. I think it's an interesting avenue of possible discovery.

Are you saying that it is impossible that people could have gone through the plenum to plant explosive charges? If so, why is it impossible?
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JFK
post Jun 4 2008, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Jun 4 2008, 09:23 PM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the "debunkers" and (ASCE/FEMA, NIST, Popular Mechanics, History Channel) the popularly-construed "experts" on metallurgy and on the usage and properties of steel and aluminum?

I hereby challenge you Roark to find me:
1. A source of aluminum suspended ceiling grid components.
2. Conclusive, verifiable, documented proof that such aluminum grid components were actually used in the WTC Twin Towers pre-collapse.

Good day and good luck.

P.S. The "spin cycle" is over- buzzer already went off some time ago. Ta.


I just checked mine here and guess what.....

A magnet sticks. smile.gif

GFL Roark.
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Anduril
post Jun 4 2008, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (Roark @ Jun 4 2008, 10:32 PM) *
No.


Would you mind telling us all the origin of this unshakeable feeling of certitude?

(No, not down there...)

You know -- study; calculation; expertise; observation; experience?

Or are we just supposed to take your proud ignorance as definitive?


To put it another way: how much would you be willing to bet that a person _cannot_ move around in such spaces above the ceiling? I'm confident that people could and did on occasion. What is the heaviest animal that could move around up there?


BTW: How much does the complete suspended ceiling for one floor weigh in at? It has to support its own weight, or it would fall onto the floor... Remember, sprinkler systems were retrofitted throughout both towers. You know, those things that are supposed to spray lots of water down from the ceiling onto fires. Perhaps you can tell us about them, too.

We could ask "Homeland Security." Man called Chertoff, AFAICR.

[ FX: "Remember Cortland!" ]

Tony
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paranoia
post Mar 7 2010, 01:37 AM
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dig deeper
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going back to the op-
QUOTE (anduril)
They would be ideal for accessing the internal surfaces of the exterior structure for placement of cutting charges; the trusses; the floor pans with their (later wholly pulverized) concrete, using multiple C-4 charges or similar; and the exterior of the steelwork of the central cores (for thermate or similar charges).

Watching slow-motion videos of the demolitions, it is striking that the demolition configurations used were not designed to minimize collateral damage; they were configured to provide the maximum possible dramatic effects. Nothing strikes deeper fears than mushroom clouds. Whoever designed the demolitions of the North and South Towers was (is?) a genius in their calling. It would be most interesting to know who it is (was?).


check out some of the demos in these 3 clips:

http://www.daveytronic.com/blasttouch/wmv/openpit_mov.html
http://www.daveytronic.com/blasttouch/wmv/coal_mov.html
http://www.daveytronic.com/blasttouch/wmv/...t_demo_mov.html

and compare:



barring the use of super secret "exotic weaponry" (which i dont believe is the case), in my humble opinion the only way all that concrete of the floor sections (in particular) could have turned into dust (as seen in the videos) is for them to have been lined (on the under side) with explosives.
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bobcat46
post Mar 7 2010, 11:12 AM
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I don't know how in the hell anyone can look at that video and think that it was a natural collapse. The explosions following the collapsed area are clearly visable. The concrete floors turned to dust in mid air. There was no pieces of concrete in the debris pile.....it was all spread around Manahattan as dust. A simple building collapse would not do that, nor would a common building demolition. Every building demolition I have seen have all had a big pile of large pieces of concrete. This was a special demolition with special charges placed on each floor that caused the concrete floors to turn to dust during the collapse.
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kawika
post Mar 7 2010, 01:35 PM
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I used to think that explosives were placed under the floor pans; that this was necessary to explain all the concrete being pulverized. I had to revise my thinking because that would mean access to every floor. That didn't make sense from a logistics standpoint. I could see many floors being accessed during fireproofing upgrades or tenant changeouts, but 100% coverage did not compute. I stil think that nanothermite may have been sprayed on the floor pans. At least that would explain the thermitic material found in the dust.

I started to ask myself, could explosives on every floor account for many cars/trucks being turned over? Can they explain the helter-skelter burned cars, some a very long ways out? Could falling debris account for the WTC6, WTC5 cores being hollowed out? The DEW theory begins to enter at that point.

The DEW idea seems to account for exterior columns being hurled sideways, something I doubt could be accomplished by floor pan demolitions. You have to remember that the 14" columns are next to flimsy glazing that would give up easily. The pressure thus relieved, what surfaces are left to work on? The spandrels are tieing all the columns together and the trusses are tieing the spandrels/column assemblies to the core columns. You have to have a fantastic amount of pressure to simultaneously disassemble and hurl an exterior column, or an entire assembly.

I just can't see how cutter charges would be placed on the exterior columns. There isn't enough cosmetics to hide them. In the suspended ceiling cavity you would be denied access to the column itself by the spandrel plate attached to the columns' interior surfaces. Many of the assemblies' bolts were sheared as though some DEW targeted their unique properties while leaving the structural steel alone.

I believe that the molten showers indicating thermate activity was seen in the impacted floor areas. These areas might have had some thermate devices to aid in the removal of sections during impact. Remember that this activity was on the north face of the South Tower, opposite the impact. We had an entire section miraculously blown out of the south face of the North Tower coming to rest some 600 feet away, with a lone tire sticking out of it. Like we are expected to believe the tire had enough force to first disassemble 30+ connections and then have enough residual energy to send the entire panel sailing. Again, a DEW starts to make sense.

I don't know. But I gotta wonder if a DEW was used. Conventional explosives can't answer all of my questions.
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 7 2010, 06:12 PM
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In the 70's, I was in the WTC a couple of times up to the 92nd (?) floor. I'm not even sure which tower I was in, since in those days most people didn't know the difference between 1 & 2. At that time, they were still working on the floors above the 90th and you had to have security clearance to go up there. The floor that I went to had not been finished. A lot of places in the Towers had never been finished. That meant, there was no drop ceilings on these floors. Even without the drop ceilings in, the floor felt dark and closed in because there was only 12 feet between each floor. The trusses took up the space between the floor slabs and a drop ceiling could be attached or hung from the bottom of the trusses. If the space was occupied, you could hide anything you want above the ceiling panels. If the space was unoccupied and I think a lot more of the building was unoccupied then the owners cared to admit, then you could do whatever you wanted.

After the 1993 bombing, the WTC began a 10 year project to replace all of the wiring in both Towers. How convenient.

This post has been edited by DoYouEverWonder: Mar 7 2010, 06:13 PM
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