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Sanders' Religion Thread, Begun @ LC Forum

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post Feb 13 2007, 09:30 AM
Post #341





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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 28 2006, 05:01 AM

[quote=Sinewy @ Aug 26 2006, 05:00 PM[/quote]These same people would cater to the notion that Abraham performed them due to their belief that Abraham built the Kab`ah, and that they descended from his son Ishma`el.[/quote]
I really liked what you wrote, except I was not sure about this one sentence. I've read countless other reports that it was Prophet Adam (pbuh) who built the Kab`ah. Is this true, or was it Prophet Abraham (pbuh)? Or did Prophet Abraham (pbuh) rebuild it?
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:30 AM
Post #342





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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 31 2006, 04:23 PM


QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 28 2006 @ 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 26 2006 @ 05:00 PM)
These same people would cater to the notion that Abraham performed them due to their belief that Abraham built the Kab`ah, and that they descended from his son Ishma`el.


I really liked what you wrote, except I was not sure about this one sentence. I've read countless other reports that it was Prophet Adam (pbuh) who built the Kab`ah. Is this true, or was it Prophet Abraham (pbuh)? Or did Prophet Abraham (pbuh) rebuild it?


An answer would be nice. wink.gif
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:30 AM
Post #343





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Posted by: Daniels Sep 1 2006, 01:43 AM

I can't tell you Who actually built the Ka'aba but I can tell you something interesting about just why it is the Point of Adoration for Muslims...

"Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?"
Qur'án 29:2

"And likewise, reflect upon the revealed verse concerning the "Qiblih." [The direction toward which the face must be turned when praying.] When Muhammad, the Sun of Prophethood, had fled from the dayspring of Batha [Mecca] unto Yathrib, [Medina] He continued to turn His face, while praying, unto Jerusalem, the holy city, until the time when the Jews began to utter unseemly words against Him -- words which if mentioned would ill befit these pages and would weary the reader. Muhammad strongly resented these words. Whilst, wrapt in meditation and wonder, He was gazing toward heaven, He heard the kindly Voice of Gabriel, saying: "We behold Thee from above, turning Thy face to heaven; but We will have Thee turn to a Qiblih [Point of Adoration] which shall please Thee." [Quran 2:144] On a subsequent day, when the Prophet, together with His companions, was offering the noontide prayer, and had already performed two of the prescribed Rik'ats, [prostrations] the Voice of Gabriel was heard again: "Turn Thou Thy face towards the sacred Mosque." [at Mecca], [Quran 2:149] In the midst of that same prayer, Muhammad suddenly turned His face away from Jerusalem and faced the Ka'bih. Whereupon, a profound dismay seized suddenly the companions of the Prophet. Their faith was shaken severely. So great was their alarm, that many of them, discontinuing their prayer, apostatized their faith. Verily, God caused not this turmoil but to test and prove His servants. Otherwise, He, the ideal King, could easily have left the Qiblih unchanged, and could have caused Jerusalem to remain the Point of Adoration unto His Dispensation, thereby withholding not from that holy city the distinction of acceptance which had been conferred upon it."


Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan [The Book of Certitude], p. 49
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:30 AM
Post #344





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Posted by: JerryB9105 Sep 1 2006, 06:30 PM

The religious message comes at the end of this video -- wait for it:
(Video - United We Stand - 2 min:27 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3xqx8PR_TI...ror%20political
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:30 AM
Post #345





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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Sep 1 2006, 06:16 PM


bump
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:31 AM
Post #346





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Posted by: Sanders Sep 1 2006, 07:08 PM

Since you bumped...

The first Crusade

A quick note about the mentality of people in Europe in the late 11th century. The church was a huge part of people's lives. The center of any hamlet was the church. Every facet of life was moderated by the Church. (Even sex - it was banned on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, Sundays and religious holidays, if you can believe it.) Life was dreary, life after death was the focus. Monesteric orders were gaining converts. Nobles spent their money building churches and monestaries to atone for their sins, the trade in religious relics boomed - to touch something that a saint or a disciple had touched, or better yet to get your hands on some bones of one of them brought a person closer to God. (An "Iconoclastic movement" , which tried to do away with paganistic icon worship (images of Christ or saints) was started by the Byzantine Emperor Leo the Isaurian, but it ended in the ninth century when a new momevent forwarded the idea that the contemplation of icons would actually help people assend from the material to the immaterial... and the icon craze was on for good). This period is known as the "High Middle Ages", and the center of it's culture was the Catholic Church.

That was the state of Europe when the Seljuk Turks invaded and conquered Anatolia, the eastern provinces of the Byzantine Empire (modern Turkey).

So Pope Urban II called on the Franks and Goths to stop fighting each other and take up arms and march into Byzantium and wrest Anatolia from the "infidels"... And while they were at it that they should try and take Jeruselem as well.

It's been estimated that somewhere around 150,000 people answered the call - and that was a lot of people back then. The princess of Constantinople, Anna Comnena, remarked that it was as if "the whole West...was bursting forth into Asia in a solid mass, with all its belongings."


P.S. @Jerry - that Mathew guy was pretty smart
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:31 AM
Post #347





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Posted by: Sanders Sep 1 2006, 07:55 PM


My August was crazy, but things have calmed down, I thought I'd push on to the Crusades already. If anyone wants to fill in anything from before that of course go right ahead - I'm actually curious as to who the Seljuk Turks were...
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:31 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Sep 2 2006, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Sep 1 2006 @ 03:55 PM)
I'm actually curious as to who the Seljuk Turks were...


Sorry, no clue.
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:31 AM
Post #349





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Posted by: Sinewy Sep 2 2006, 05:00 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 31 2006 @ 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 28 2006 @ 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 26 2006 @ 05:00 PM)
These same people would cater to the notion that Abraham performed them due to their belief that Abraham built the Kab`ah, and that they descended from his son Ishma`el.

I really liked what you wrote, except I was not sure about this one sentence. I've read countless other reports that it was Prophet Adam (pbuh) who built the Kab`ah. Is this true, or was it Prophet Abraham (pbuh)? Or did Prophet Abraham (pbuh) rebuild it?

An answer would be nice. wink.gif

The Hajar al Aswad (Black stone) is embedded in the lower corner of the Kab`ah and its relevancy was that it fell during the Adam and Eve's time. The Kab`ah was originally built by Adam, then later on rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, then during Muhammad's time it was refined even more (absolvement of idols was one part).
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:33 AM
Post #350





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Posted by: Sanders Sep 2 2006, 05:06 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Sep 2 2006 @ 02:00 PM)
The Hajar al Aswad (Black stone) is embedded in the lower corner of the Kab`ah and its relevancy was that it fell during the Adam and Eve's time. The Kab`ah was originally built by Adam, then later on rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, then during Muhammad's time it was refined even more (absolvement of idols was one part).


That helps alot !

Thanks
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:33 AM
Post #351





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Posted by: Sinewy Sep 2 2006, 05:11 AM

Seljuk Turks were actually the ancestors of present day turks today. They were of Oghuz Turks. Lev Gumilev, a noted historian, stated that Oghuz Turks were of original caucasoid stock. There are Turks all over Turkey, Turkmenistan, Azeribaijan, and even there are Turks in Afghanistan---Sultan Mahmud Ghaznawi was, and perhaps is, the most popular Turk in Afghanistan's history.
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:34 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Sep 2 2006, 05:23 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Sep 2 2006 @ 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 31 2006 @ 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 28 2006 @ 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 26 2006 @ 05:00 PM)
These same people would cater to the notion that Abraham performed them due to their belief that Abraham built the Kab`ah, and that they descended from his son Ishma`el.

I really liked what you wrote, except I was not sure about this one sentence. I've read countless other reports that it was Prophet Adam (pbuh) who built the Kab`ah. Is this true, or was it Prophet Abraham (pbuh)? Or did Prophet Abraham (pbuh) rebuild it?

An answer would be nice. wink.gif

The Hajar al Aswad (Black stone) is embedded in the lower corner of the Kab`ah and its relevancy was that it fell during the Adam and Eve's time. The Kab`ah was originally built by Adam, then later on rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, then during Muhammad's time it was refined even more (absolvement of idols was one part).

Thanks, that helps. smile.gif
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Guest_librarian_*
post Feb 13 2007, 09:34 AM
Post #353





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Posted by: Sanders Sep 2 2006, 05:25 AM

(Edit: be sure to read the last part of the quote from the second article - it really ties the Caliphs, the rise of Islam, and the dominance of the Seljuk Turks stuff together succinctly - leading us right up to the first Crusade)

QUOTE
The Seljuks were a major branch of the Oghuz (or ?uz) Turks that lived in Central Asia in the 9th to 13th century. The Seljuks migrated into western Asia in the 10th century while fighting with various tribes on their way. They accepted Sunni Islam and founded dynasties in Persia, Mesopotamia, Syria and Anatolia. The Seljuk Empire's lands covered approximately today's Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Turkey, all of the Middle East and a part of the Arabian peninsula. An Oghuz bey (chief) called Seljuk (Seldjuq) was the founder of the dynasty. His son led the Seljuks during the migration and his grandson, To?rül (Tughril), conquered Persia and occupied Baghdad. He died in 1063 in favour of his nephew (the great-grandson of Seljuk), Alp Arslan, who invaded Anatolia at the Battle of Manzikert in the 1070s.
Seljuk Turks can be regarded as the ancestors of Western Turks (today's Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan). They and their descendants (i.e., the Ottoman Empire) played a major role in medieval times by setting a barrier against the Mongol onslaught, defending the Islamic world against Crusaders and bringing an end to the Byzantine Empire. The fact that they embraced Sunni Islam and defended it with an irresistible power is one of the reasons why this branch is the major and most populous division of Islam.


http://bopedia.com/en/wikipedia/s/se/seljuk_turks.html

And this little article filled in a lot of holes for me...

QUOTE
The center of stone worship was Mecca. The city was situated in a convenient place along the trade routes and merchants would stop to perform the rituals associated with the Kaaba and its sacred Black Stone.

"Kaaba means a square structure, and is one with our word cube. In the belief of orthodox Moslems, the Kaaba was built or rebuilt ten times. The first was erected at the dawn of history by angels from heaven; the second by Adam; the third by his son Seth; the fourth by Abraham and his son Ishmael by Hagar.. the eighth by the Quraish leaders in Mohammed's lifetime (605); the ninth and tenth by Moslem leaders in 681 and 696... In its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing, is embedded the Black Stone, of dark red material, oval in shape, some seven inches in diameter. Many of its worshipers believe that this stone was sent down from heaven--and perhaps it was a meteorite; most of them believe that it has been a part of the Kaaba since Abraham.

...Jerusalem became the third holiest site in Islam because of Mohammed's vision that "he was miraculously transported in his sleep to Jerusalem; there a winged horse, Buraq, awaited him at the Wiling Wall of the Jewish Temple ruins, flew him to heaven, and back again; and by another miracle the Prophet found himself, the next morning, safe in his Mecca bed."

Because of the infighting between the Hashimites and the Umayyas of the Quraish, Mohammed was forced to flee Mecca to Yathrib (renamed Medina "City of the Prophet"). ...After many years in Medina, Mohammed made a ten year truce with those in Mecca, but the fighting started up again after only two years. He entered Mecca unopposed (because of the number of his army), declared a general amnesty, destroyed the idols in and around the Kaaba, but spared the Black stone and sanctioned the kissing of it. He proclaimed Mecca the Holy City of Islam and stated that no unbeliever should ever be allowed to set foot on its sacred ground. After this conquest, all of Arabia submitted to his authority.

...After Mohammed's death Islam was ruled by Caliphs ("representatives") and there were a succession of those who went out and either converted the vanquished, made them pay tribute or slaughtered them--those were the 3 choices. At the beginning (630s), Syria was the base of the spreading Moslem empire. A few of these caliphs seem to have favored dying their white beards red (with no explanation why). The Hashimite and Umayyad clans were still feuding and around 661 the Umayyad were victorious and took over the caliphate until 750.

The Abbasid caliphate ran from 750-1058 with the founder, Abu al-Abbas al-Saffah (the Bloodthirsty), ruling an empire "extending from the Indus to the Atlantic: Sind (northwest India), Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Persia, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, Crete, Egypt, and North Africa. Moslem Spain, however, rejected his authority..." This caliphate built a new capital at Baghdad....

...As the Abbasid caliphate ran down, many "Turks were employed in the armed forces of the state, as Germans had replaced Romans in the armies of Rome; and from al-Muntasir [a caliph] onward it was Turkish captains that made and unmade, commanded and murdered, the caliphs." The caliphs were forced to do the bidding of others and the "Commander of the Faithful became little more than the head of orthodox Islam."

The Turks, in turn, overran Islam: "Moving westward from Lake Baikal, the Turks of north central Asia organized themselves in the sixth century under a khan or chagan. Forging iron found in their mountains, they made weapons as hard as their code, which punished not only treason and murder, but adultery and cowardice, with death. The fertility of their women outran the mortality of their wars. By AD 1000 a branch of Turks known by the name of their beg or leader Seljuq dominated Transoxiana as well as Turkestan. Mahmud of Ghazni, thinking to halt this rival Turkish power, seized a son of Seljuq, and imprisoned him in India. Undaunted and enraged, the Seljuq Turks under the stern but masterful Tughril Beg took most of Persia, and paved their further advance by sending to the Caliph al-Qaim at Baghdad a deputation announcing their submission to him and Islam. The Caliph hoped that these fearless warriors might free him from his Buwayhid overlords; he invited Tughril Beg to come to his aid. Tughril came and the Buwayhids fled; al-Qaim married Tughril's niece, and made him 'King of the East and the West.' One by one the petty dynasties of Asiatic Islam crumbled before the Seljuqs, and acknowledge again the supremacy of Baghdad. The Seljuq rulers took the title of sultan--master--and reduce the caliphs to a merely religious role; but they brought to the government a new vigor and competence, and to Mohammedanism a new fervor of orthodox faith. They did not, like the Mongols two centuries later, destroy what they conquered; they rapidly absorbed the higher civilization, unified into a new empire what had been the scattered members of a dying state, and gave it the strength to endure and survive that long duel, between Christianity and Islam, which we know as the Crusades."


http://www.metrocast.net/~moza/redbeast.htm
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:34 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Sep 2 2006, 05:55 AM

One more note: The Fatimid Shi`a Seveners and the Roman Byzantine Empire were allies of each other, and both were against the Seljuk Sunni empire.
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:34 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Sep 16 2006, 05:50 PM


Bump. As Sanders requested. tongue.gif

I will give a response to some of the comments in the "Pope Benedict's Instigation thread."

Someone can start and take off from where we left.

I apologize once again for not participating in the rise and spread of Christianity along with discussing its fundamental concepts---due to time constraints I wasn't able. I have not forgotten, and I will mention something.
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:34 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Sep 16 2006, 09:36 PM


I have no idea where we left off.
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:35 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Sep 16 2006, 09:47 PM


Whooooh ! Revitaizzzeeed !

It's ALIIIVE !

Late 12th century.

We left off where Europe was all major-ly Christianized and the Church was the center of midieval life. The collection of Icons was rampant, various monesteric sects were becoming popular, meanwhile the Seljuk turks were throwing their weight around and had conquered Anatolia.

Pope Urban II calls for a "crusade" to take back (modern) Turkey, and while he's at it he asks all devout Christians (converted Franks and Goths to be exact) to stop their bickering, answer the calling and retrive the holy land from the infidel Moslems.

Have at it ...

Edit - whoops ! I mean late 11th century
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post Feb 13 2007, 09:35 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Sep 18 2006, 10:53 AM


Bump

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...3949&st=0&#last


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tocarm
post Feb 14 2007, 02:10 AM
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"In 1672, POPE CLEMENT X declared the altar of the Eucharistic Miracle a priveleged altar..."

A bit of 'Church History' from:

http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html
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Sanders
post Feb 14 2007, 02:33 AM
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Thanks Tocarm thumbsup.gif

Very informative


You'll notice that the last post in this (reconstituted) thread by Sinewy was September 18, 2006.
Personally I probably can't spend much or any time on this thread in the near future, but since e-dog and I did import it I thought I'd leave it up here for people to read. The thread meanders into all sorts of areas, but for the most part covers the evolution of Jeudaeism, Christianity and Islam chronologically begining with Abraham. We got up to the onset of the first Crusade.

There weren't many knowlegable Christian contributors around when we were dealing with that aspect so it's a little lite in that department ... so thanks for the info Tocarm.

Cheers
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