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Questions About Flight Door, How Do I Debunk a Debunker!

JFK
post Dec 1 2009, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Aldo Marquis CIT @ Dec 1 2009, 12:46 PM) *
Nice one, JFK. I got the same manual and I think we got it from the same place. A certain poster from Letsroll wink.gif


Mine came from an A&P mechanic in Argentina. ( not related to Letsroll ) wink.gif

Did you also get the accompanying System Schematic Manual ?
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wstutt
post Dec 1 2009, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Dec 6 2009, 02:50 PM) *
<snip>
United 93 was also a 757-200 aircraft, but used 757-4 Data Frame Layout.

http://www.ntsb.gov/info/UAL93FDR.pdf
(also bottom of page 2)

DFL 757-3b (AA77) has the FLT DECK DOOR parameter which is why you see it listed under the parameters in the NTSB pdf and recorded in the data.

DFL 757-4 (UA93) does not list a FLT DECK DOOR parameter, which is why it is not listed in the NTSB pdf nor recorded.
Hi Rob,

In the case of UAL93, the bottom of page 2 of the NTSB pdf says "United Airlines provided their custom data frame which is based on Boeing's 757-4 data frame, Attachment IV: 757UALmap.xls", so it would appear possible to me for the custom data frame layout for UAL93 to contain the FLT DECK DOOR parameter. I wouldn't want to get anyone's hopes up too much though.

We could ask for that attachment from the NTSB like I did for AAL77, however mine took 3 months to come through. I've got exact details of the request I made on my website.

Warren.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 1 2009, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (wstutt @ Dec 1 2009, 05:53 PM) *
Hi Rob,

In the case of UAL93, the bottom of page 2 of the NTSB pdf says "United Airlines provided their custom data frame which is based on Boeing's 757-4 data frame, Attachment IV: 757UALmap.xls", so it would appear possible to me for the custom data frame layout for UAL93 to contain the FLT DECK DOOR parameter. I wouldn't want to get anyone's hopes up too much though.

We could ask for that attachment from the NTSB like I did for AAL77, however mine took 3 months to come through. I've got exact details of the request I made on my website.

Warren.


I looked through 757-4 in D226A101-3G.pdf, it doesnt have FLT DECK DOOR. Unless I missed it. I looked twice. Let me know if you find it.

Considering the NTSB doesnt list FLT DECK DOOR as a parameter for UA93, its safe to say its not recorded for UA93 nor in the custom DFL.

But, this wasnt the purpose of the post. The purpose was to clear up those confusing the DFL number for aircraft type.
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solequinox
post Dec 1 2009, 11:48 PM
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So help me understand how this sensor works. I have looked at the diagrams but my understanding of electrical mechanisms is very limited.

My understanding is that there is a constant electrical connection when the door is closed and it can measure that every few seconds so that it knows the door is closed. If the connection is broken, by the door opening or by it being broken in some way, then it is assumed that the door is open because that electrical connection is no longer there?

Is it possible that the wire/fuse/relay or something from the sensor to the FDAU or FDR was grounded which made the device think that there was a constant connection and therefore the door was closed the entire time, or that the sensor was not installed and the FDR was recording a default value?

or

Can we prove that N644AA had the sensor installed? It's obvious that the FDR was capable of recording this input and that the aircraft had been upgraded in general for these capabilities, but I can't find anything specific about the sensor, just the FDR and data frame layout.


Just for some background, this is what I've researched so far:

I have looked at the FAA Registry but I can't find anything specific about the airplane being upgraded.

I've seen the FDR Law that made the airplanes upgrade their FDR systems, but I can't find anything specific about necessitating the sensor, just the FDR system.

I've looked at the Federal Code of Regulations for FDRs which lists the 91 data parameters which are required to be recorded, but I can't find anything that specifically points to FLT_DECK_DOOR. Does anyone have any insight on this?

I've also looked at the FAA Regulations for FDRs just out of curiosity. It says that for each FDR the manufactorer has to submit detailed wiring, installation, and equipment guidelines, limitations, and schematics to the FAA. I wonder if this stuff would be useful and if it is available through FOIA?
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JFK
post Dec 2 2009, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (solequinox @ Dec 1 2009, 10:48 PM) *
So help me understand how this sensor works. I have looked at the diagrams but my understanding of electrical mechanisms is very limited.

My understanding is that there is a constant electrical connection when the door is closed and it can measure that every few seconds so that it knows the door is closed. If the connection is broken, by the door opening or by it being broken in some way, then it is assumed that the door is open because that electrical connection is no longer there?
<snip >


It would have been either an inductive or capacitive proximity switch... My guess is inductive.

QUOTE
Capacitive proximity switches sense distance to objects by detecting changes in capacitance around it. A radio-frequency oscillator is connected to a metal plate. When the plate nears an object, the radio frequency changes, and the frequency detector sends a signal telling the switch to open or close. These proximity switches have the disadvantage of being more sensitive to objects that conduct electricity than to objects that do not.

Inductive proximity switches sense distance to objects by generating magnetic fields. They are similar in principle to metal detectors. A coil of wire is charged with electrical current, and an electronic circuit measures this current. If a metallic part gets close enough to the coil, the current will increase and the proximity switch will open or close accordingly. The chief disadvantage of inductive proximity switches is that they can only detect metallic objects.


If you want to see one, look at the side door behind the cab on a regular Waste Management garbage truck.
( about 3/4" diameter, 2" long and wires coming out of one end )

It is a safety feature to prevent main ram movement should the door be open...
No contact, but a piece of metal ( usually a tab on the door ) is brought to within 3/16" of it so the truck can compact the trash.

I do know for a fact that if you "ground" it in an attempt to bypass it on a garbage truck as alexi_drago on the govt loyalist site suggests you will end up frying the $1600 computer which controls the hydraulics. ( I witnessed a manager firing a tech for doing just that in 1999. )
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Guest_Turbofan_*
post Dec 2 2009, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (solequinox @ Dec 1 2009, 10:48 PM) *
My understanding is that there is a constant electrical connection when the door is closed


It depends on which part of the diagram you are viewing. The proximity switch actually breaks the circuit when
the door is closed, and energizes a relay which supplies power to the lock solenoid.

QUOTE
and it can measure that every few seconds so that it knows the door is closed.


The FDAU polls the EICAS port 41 to read the value every 4 seconds; the signal voltage is present constantly whether the door is open,
or closed (1 = open, 0 = closed).

QUOTE
If the connection is broken, by the door opening or by it being broken in some way, then it is assumed that the door is open because that electrical connection is no longer there?


If the door is open, the proximity switch grounds the relay which supplies power to the lock solenoid and lighting systems. It also illuminates
the pilots' overhead indiactors. There are several circuits connected to the multi-pin relay.

QUOTE
Is it possible that the wire/fuse/relay or something from the sensor to the FDAU or FDR was grounded which made the device think that
there was a constant connection and therefore the door was closed the entire time, or that the sensor was not installed and the FDR was recording
a default value?


No, a broken switch or loss of power to the circuit causes the indicator lights to illuminate showing a "DOOR OPEN" condition. The FDAU also
receives a logic 1 (OPEN) state.

This is why it doesn't matter if the door is kicked, or the switch fails.


QUOTE
Can we prove that N644AA had the sensor installed? It's obvious that the FDR was capable of recording this input and that the aircraft had been upgraded in general for these capabilities, but I can't find anything specific about the sensor, just the FDR and data frame layout.


We are currently tracking down proprietary documentation to document this fact.

All evidence points to the switch being installed as already covered in the main thread, "Hijacking Impossible" which is within the LATEST NEWS
forum. Have a look there for more info.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 2 2009, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Turbofan @ Dec 2 2009, 12:33 AM) *
No, a broken switch or loss of power to the circuit causes the indicator lights to illuminate showing a "DOOR OPEN" condition. The FDAU also
receives a logic 1 (OPEN) state.



Thank you Tino.

So for those laymen out there. The Door fails to the OPEN indication.

Meaning any failure of the switch will record an OPEN position.

This is logical with all indications I've ever seen on aircraft. They fail to the LEAST likely state alerting the pilots, mechanics, etc, to look at it.

In other words, you get a door open indication. You look at the door, its closed. You know readily, for a fact, the switch failed. Engineering 101.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 2 2009, 01:50 AM
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I posted this in the Latest News Thread, but I think it should be cross posted here as well.... so that those reading are clear on our position regarding this find...

QUOTE
....we have verified Warrens data for the last flight only, the alleged hijacking on Sept 11, it shows the door closed.

Some have made the claim that the rest of the data also shows the door closed for the entire time. We at P4T do not have the resources at this time to verify that additional data. But again, we did verify the last flight through our own decode. In the future, we may be able to verify the rest.

As we know, those who make excuse for the govt story will believe anything they're told if it supports their beliefs. None of them have verified the ADDITIONAL 40 hours of data. They just take it at face value because it MAY support their agenda.

Keep in mind, if the data all showed 1's, meaning door open, we can definitively say the data is erroneous, as there is no way the cockpit door would be open for 40 hours of passenger service at American Airlines. And if logic has any value, this would be the bit value recorded if the FLIGHT DECK DOOR parameter wasn't hooked up to the system so when a tech reviews the data, he can readily admit its not valid.

But the fact is the data shows all 0's for the last flight and verified by P4T. This means the door was closed for that flight and the hijacking impossible BASED ON THE DATA. The NTSB/FBI are the only ones who are able to, and need to, explain this alarming conflict.

All else is speculation and theory.

Again, this data not PROOF of anything as I mentioned on page one of this thread where i stated "...we can not confirm or deny the authenticity of the data as provided by the NTSB". All we know for a FACT, is that the data being provided by the NTSB to the American public through the FOIA does NOT support the govt story, once again. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment.


http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779753

With all that said. this data certainly is EVIDENCE. FDR data is used in a court of law all the time, and we are using it in the affidavit we signed for the Pentagon Survivor lawsuit brought by April Gallop. http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon_lawsuit.html
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rob balsamo
post Dec 2 2009, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE
I just did a more accurate count of the parameters.

There are 344 Validated Parameters.

There are 759 Parameters "Not working or Unconfirmed".

The Data Frame Layout provided by the NTSB for N644AA lists 1110 Parameters.


"Database Editor Summary Report.
For database \\10.149.236.25\adi\fdv\db\757-3.db.
1110 parameters in report.
256 words per subframe in database.
Created Wed Oct 24 15:11:58 2001"


759 + 344 = 1103

There are 7 parameters not recorded.

FLT DECK DOOR is NOT one of them. It's recorded.

If someone would like to go through the mind numbing task of counting the parameters to cross check my work, please feel free and we'll make any corrections.

Here again is the NTSB PDF.
http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf

Also, some have claimed that a 0 is a "place holder" in the data if the parameter is not recorded. If thats the case, why are there parameters with blank cells in the data which are also supposed to record a 1 or 0 at the same rate as FLT DECK DOOR?


http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10779837
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rob balsamo
post Dec 2 2009, 04:52 PM
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Claim - If a parameter is not being used, it is grounded and therefore will record a 0.

I will use the "debunkers" own words to debunk the above claim.

"I concur with whoever on ATS was saying that wires are normally blanked off and left hanging when not used or connected. We never used to tie down stuff like this to ground and neither did the manufacturers." - funk de fino, Claims to be a former FDR Expert, J.REF Lackey and GL Cheerleader

"Its up to the airlines if they want to record other params. The vast majority are just open, not wired to the systems that they are supposed to record." - apathoid, Claimed 757/767 Avionics Tech For Delta Airlines, J.REF Lackey, GL Extraordinaire

So, those who make the claim that the FLT DECK DOOR would be grounded if not being used and therefore record a 0, would have to take it up with the "duhbunkers" listed above.

As a pilot, I agree with the above duhbunkers on this point. You see open pins in the "rack" all the time when maintenance is working on the avionics.

Again, FLT DECK DOOR would have never been recorded nor listed in the data from the recorder if it was not being used.
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wstutt
post Dec 2 2009, 05:49 PM
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Hi Rob,

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Dec 7 2009, 02:18 AM) *
I looked through 757-4 in D226A101-3G.pdf, it doesnt have FLT DECK DOOR. Unless I missed it. I looked twice. Let me know if you find it.
I looked as well. Unfortunately I didn't find it either.

QUOTE
Considering the NTSB doesnt list FLT DECK DOOR as a parameter for UA93, its safe to say its not recorded for UA93 nor in the custom DFL.
That makes sense, I hadn't thought of that.

QUOTE
But, this wasnt the purpose of the post. The purpose was to clear up those confusing the DFL number for aircraft type.
Fair enough,

Warren.
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wstutt
post Dec 2 2009, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Turbofan @ Dec 7 2009, 05:33 AM) *
<snip>

The FDAU polls the EICAS port 41 to read the value every 4 seconds; the signal voltage is present constantly whether the door is open,
or closed (1 = open, 0 = closed).

<snip>
Do you have a source for the above information? I am interested in learning more about how the FDAU interfaces with the EICAS.

Warren.
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Guest_Turbofan_*
post Dec 2 2009, 06:05 PM
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Yes Warren, I have a schematic which shows the EICAS connection. I will forward/post the diagram later this evening.

Basically, the EICAS module connects to the FDAU at port 41. Door switches like Cargo Doors, Passenger Access Doors, etc.
feed their values directly into the EICAS.

From there, the data values are multiplexed to the FDAU for processing.

So even though a parameter may be disconnected PRE- EICAS, the FDAU port and operating circuity never has floating pins.
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wstutt
post Dec 2 2009, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (JFK @ Dec 5 2009, 10:23 PM) *
YW Rob.

Just to add....
Thanks JFK for your diagrams, (also thanks Rob, that I can now view them)

Do you have any wiring diagrams showing how the door sensor circuitry is connected to the EICAS?

Perhaps the label MD & T 33-16-00 is connected to the EICAS. In which case it could show that the EICAS has to receive a door sensor signal for the FLIGHT DECK DOOR RELEASE light to work.

Thanks,
Warren.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 2 2009, 06:14 PM
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Keep in mind folks (and in the interest of transparency)

Although JFK already provided the cover page which explains this, I will make it more clear.

The aircraft maintenance (MX) manual we are using currently for research is of a 757-200SF. This manual is NOT from American Airlines and obviously a different model of aircraft. We are using it for basic reference at this point in time until we may be able to obtain an American Airlines MX manual. The only manual we can use for definitive proof, is the American Airlines Manual for this model aircraft. A 757-223. We can't even use a United Airlines 757-223 manual because, as we know, UA93 didnt record the Cockpit door.

These manuals are confidential and proprietary as pointed out in JFK's cover page. So it's not like we can just pick one up at the local bookstore or an airline gift shop.

The most important thing to remember is that the data shows CLOSED for the door. The NTSB/FBI do have these manuals and if not, access to them. They need to explain this alarming conflicting evidence (and yes, it is evidence), with the govt story.

All else is speculation and theory.
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JFK
post Dec 2 2009, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Dec 2 2009, 05:14 PM) *
Keep in mind folks (and in the interest of transparency)

Although JFK already provided the cover page which explaining this, I will make it more clear.

The aircraft maintenance (MX) manual we are using currently for research is of a 757-200SF which is NOT from American Airlines and obviously a different model of aircraft. We are using it for basic reference at this point in time until we may be able to obtain an American Airlines MX ,manual.

These manuals are confidential and proprietary as pointed out in JFK's cover page. So it's not like we can just pick one up at the local bookstore or an airline gift shop.

The most important thing to remember is that the data shows CLOSED for the door. The NTSB/FBI do have these manuals and if not, access to them. They need to explain this alarming conflicting evidence (and yes, it is evidence), with the govt story.

All else is speculation and theory.


To add to the above, please use discression when posting pages from this manual as certain information contained within could aid any potential terrorists.

Secrets do have their place in this world.
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Guest_Turbofan_*
post Dec 2 2009, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (wstutt @ Dec 2 2009, 05:10 PM) *
Thanks JFK for your diagrams, (also thanks Rob, that I can now view them)

Do you have any wiring diagrams showing how the door sensor circuitry is connected to the EICAS?

Perhaps the label MD & T 33-16-00 is connected to the EICAS. In which case it could show that the EICAS has to receive a door sensor signal for the FLIGHT DECK DOOR RELEASE light to work.

Thanks,
Warren.


Hi Warren, I'm currently going over this possibility with a few avionics techs. We would need to decode any EICAS messages stored in the FDR
(if any) to know how the unit responded to door opening, closing, etc.
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JFK
post Dec 2 2009, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (wstutt @ Dec 2 2009, 05:10 PM) *
Thanks JFK for your diagrams, (also thanks Rob, that I can now view them)

Do you have any wiring diagrams showing how the door sensor circuitry is connected to the EICAS?

Perhaps the label MD & T 33-16-00 is connected to the EICAS. In which case it could show that the EICAS has to receive a door sensor signal for the FLIGHT DECK DOOR RELEASE light to work.

Thanks,
Warren.


You are welcome Warren, I will have to look and see what detail it goes into, and whether that page is suitable for posting if it exists.

Sorry for the delay, but I was finishing up a project. ( 911 pager messages in .CSV format )
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Jupiter
post Dec 2 2009, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE
The only manual we can use for definitive proof, is the American Airlines Manual for this model aircraft. A 757-223


Yes but as I said in another topic, this model has been upgrated with a new FDR which lists many parameters, so also require new installation, like the Flight deck door electric installation, that you probably could not find in a 757-223 manual :

Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, without an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.
Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, with an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.
Airplanes manufactured after October 11, 1991, after August 18, 2000, and after August 18, 2002.

AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED PRIOR TO OCTOBER 11, 1991, WITHOUT AN FDAU OR DFDAU INSTALLED AS OF JULY 16, 1996.
The new rule requires that by August 18, 2001 the FDR record at least 18 parameter groups. For most airplanes, this is an increase from 11 parameter groups, as described in "Effects of 1989 FAA Flight Data Recorder Rule Change" on page 32.

The new rule requires that by four years from date of rule at least 22 parameter groups be recorded by the FDR. In this group are Boeing models 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, DC-10, and MD-80.



@ JFK : this :

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5027/fcdps4.png

is dated april 2006, which is a problem in our concern.




About the 4 seconds recording, do someone know if you open the door withing the 4 seconds, it will be listed as "open" at the forth second, even if it's now close ? I know 4 seconds is not enough to enter and struggle, but the more accurate we are, better it is. So if someone knows if it would be recorder even if you open or close the door within 4 seconds...

I mean, will the parameter "open" be recorded even you leave the door open less than 4 seconds ?





Another point :

http://nestaerospace.com/FliSAFE-Readout.php#

+

http://nestaerospace.com/news.php

I'm sure here is the point : "FliSAFE Parameter Validation Tool provides the Capability of checking and reporting whether all mandatory parameters are correctly recorded within specified limits, resolution and accuracy , to be compliant with FAA/EASA/DGCA/IOSA or any other Civil Aviation Authority and requirement .

FliSAFE Parameter Validation Tool is a very useful feature for Aircraft Maintenance Engineering/Flight Safety Department Personnel for automating the process of data validation which is otherwise hard to monitor manually FDR read outs to check whether mandatory parameters are correctly recorded or not. Parameter Validation Reports: for checking and reporting whether all mandatory & other parameters are correctly recorded with in the operational range/limits, as per standard Regulations. "

Actually, Flight Deck Door is not in that case, that's why there was no need to validate it.

Probably some parameters has to be validated, others like door sensors etc don't.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 2 2009, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Jupiter @ Dec 2 2009, 06:13 PM) *
Yes but as I said in another topic, this model has been upgrated with a new FDR which lists many parameters, so also require new installation, like the Flight deck door electric installation, that you probably could not find in a 757-223 manual :



Manuals get updated as the aircraft goes through changes.
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