Wtc7 Fire Progression Questions, Please bring it in here.... Options

[SanderO]

There are a number of mislabeled (direction/side of the building) images.

[onesliceshort]

There are a number of mislabeled (direction/side of the building) images.

Could very well be. Mind pointing them out?

Cheers

[SanderO]

This is a great collection of images and vids. Didn't view them all... Great work. I did seem lots of smoke on the south face in some images at 12 to 1 pm... apparently coming from not ONLY the upper floors. Some of the smoke was pretty dark. I can't tell from them what was going on. The wind pattern suggests smoke on Vesey street came from NORTH and that would be from B7.... not B5 or B6.

I can't tell much from the smoke and I don't trust NIST and I don't care that they appear to have backed off their claims about diesel. They wanted to remove all doubt from their idiotic column 79 story and certainly didn't want to expose any other causes which were not directly or indirectly attributed back SOLELY to the plane striking the towers and that causing fires in B7.

I am only interested seen evidence and not the absence of or unseen withheld evidence. Since the NIST theory of the destruction is demonstrably wrong... the correct explanation must be something else. I don't see any evidence of a CD in those images.

Do you?

[elreb]

OSS,

Could you send us a drawing of a fire?

I was wondering why SanderO was avoiding the fuel tanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[onesliceshort]

I don't want the "WTC7 fire progression" thread to turn into a circus so if anybody has queries on specific images, timeframes, etc, please post them here. I'll change whatever needs to be changed

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22085

Please keep the posts relevant to fire progression and any of the conclusions reached by me according to what is seen in the images posted there.

Cheers

[onesliceshort]

OSS,

Could you send us a drawing of a fire?

I was wondering why SanderO was avoiding the fuel tanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Would you guys do me a favour and bring the discussion in here?

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22087

Cheers

[onesliceshort]

This is a great collection of images and vids. Didn't view them all... Great work. I did seem lots of smoke on the south face in some images at 12 to 1 pm... apparently coming from not ONLY the upper floors. Some of the smoke was pretty dark. I can't tell from them what was going on. The wind pattern suggests smoke on Vesey street came from NORTH and that would be from B7.... not B5 or B6.

I can't tell much from the smoke and I don't trust NIST and I don't care that they appear to have backed off their claims about diesel. They wanted to remove all doubt from their idiotic column 79 story and certainly didn't want to expose any other causes which were not directly or indirectly attributed back SOLELY to the plane striking the towers and that causing fires in B7.

I am only interested seen evidence and not the absence of or unseen withheld evidence. Since the NIST theory of the destruction is demonstrably wrong... the correct explanation must be something else. I don't see any evidence of a CD in those images.

Do you?

Still waiting on the"mislabelled" images.

And could you be more specific on which images of smoke you're referring to?

The thread is about fire progression, by the way.

[elreb]

Would you guys do me a favour and bring the discussion in here?

10-4

I wonder if KP50 can restrict certain "Other" folks to debate and research only.

As a typical definition is "A person not valued for use or beauty, growing wild and rank, and regarded as cumbering the ground or hindering the growth of superior folks.

[SanderO]

I will have to go through them again with a pen and paper and then send a reply. I know one image was of the north side of the tower and was labeled the east side.

Unfortunately there are few images from the southern quadrant post collapse of the twins for obvious reasons. But there are a few images which do show enormous smoke rising during the mid day on the south side... hours after the twins collapsed and hours before B7 went down. I don't think this was B5 or B6 smoke. And there were few from there pre collapse because the area around the twins was closed off as it was an evacuation zone and parts of the building were falling down to the street.

And no one who went inside B7 bothered to take any pics of the non events/fires? Presuming that the FDNY or DOB made some sort of assessment to evacuate the area because the building was coming down... they must have seen something troubling and I hardly believe it was column 79. So I'd like to know who told what to whom about what the reason was that they thought the building was unstable and would collapse. I would think that this assessment would have involved some pics... as this would be important information to review / present to the decision makers... and for future use re building design and code issues.

[onesliceshort]

Could you be more specific SanderO? There are multiple images to choose from.

You need to read the whole thing. At least read the conclusions.

Start here:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10805415

It discusses the south face.

And this -

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10805411

Shows just a portion of the smoke gushing from WTC5 and 6 (1pm - 2pm) for most of the day.

Choose specific time periods and/or images.

[KP50]

10-4

I wonder if KP50 can restrict certain "Other" folks to debate and research only.

As a typical definition is "A person not valued for use or beauty, growing wild and rank, and regarded as cumbering the ground or hindering the growth of superior folks.

Good evening - first time online for a few days and already past midnight so yes I will tidy up this thread very soon but not right now. It is great and dedicated work by OSS so let's keep the debate separate and allow him to modify the thread as and when any changes are required.

[kawika]

There are a number of mislabeled (direction/side of the building) images.

Please be specific. I don't see anything mislabeled. The ones with labels are NIST labels and none of them say anything about direction/side.

They are North side, Barclay Street substation grills, and long shots of the North face isolated fires by Terry Schmidt; one of Vince Dementri at the corner of Barclay and West Broadway.

There are many more available, (start digging), all showing the substation, the vents on floor 5 and not one shows evidence of fire damage or smoke issuing forth--the signs one would expect from any fire, much less a smokey diesel fire event.

[onesliceshort]

Please be specific. I don't see anything mislabeled. The ones with labels are NIST labels and none of them say anything about direction/side.

They are North side, Barclay Street substation grills, and long shots of the North face isolated fires by Terry Schmidt; one of Vince Dementri at the corner of Barclay and West Broadway.

There are many more available, (start digging), all showing the substation, the vents on floor 5 and not one shows evidence of fire damage or smoke issuing forth--the signs one would expect from any fire, much less a smokey diesel fire event.

The WTC7 imagery is virgin territory for me but as you say Kawika, I've been as careful as I can to label them correctly. Even after scouring these images (to the point of frying my brain!) I still have to find my bearings!

The timeframes are another matter. NIST (or whoever) has been very careful to withhold images and videos that can "click" the sequence of events into place.

There were no fires on the lower floors. There were no visible fires on the south facade. There were no fires to be seen along the southwest facade section of floor 13 or 8. And I, like you, call bullshit on internal fires when WTC5 and 6 gave an idea of the smoke released by normal office combustibles.

NIST/Grattan's fire simulation was based on windows being open/removed from WTC7 to add oxygen to the equation. Claims that the smoke and fires were contained within the building with no outward physical evidence is no different fromc claiming space beams brought down the towers.

[elreb]

This is from WTC.

If you look at the upper right hand corner of C-83 you will see a chunk of steel that was cut out by NIST.

The uncut side of the sample shows signs of “Chemical” cutting.

Look at how big the center I beam is. Think a carpet fire would weaken it?

(IMG:http://www.saratogian.com/content/articles/2011/09/03/news/doc4e61393122774594032842.jpg)

[SanderO]

How can you say there were no fires in the lower floors or this smoke is not from B7? Looks pretty dark at the bottom as well.

http://archive.org/download/ArqueliaGalarz...ie-DSCN0365.jpg

The smoke is coming FROM B7 no?

http://regex.info/exif-data/bb33507aaf9bad...3163bfe5501.jpg

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-105.jpg

[onesliceshort]

How can you say there were no fires in the lower floors or this smoke is not from B7?  Looks pretty dark at the bottom as well.

http://archive.org/download/ArqueliaGalarz...ie-DSCN0365.jpg

The smoke is coming FROM B7  no?

http://regex.info/exif-data/bb33507aaf9bad...3163bfe5501.jpg

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-105.jpg

Here's the exact quote for clarity

There were no fires on the lower floors. There were no visible fires on the south facade. There were no fires to be seen along the southwest facade section of floor 13 or 8. And I, like you, call bullshit on internal fires when WTC5 and 6 gave an idea of the smoke released by normal office combustibles.

I've gone into detail here:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10805415

"What is strange is how the smoke rolls around the south face of WTC7, particularly the southwest corner, and appears to be originating from that area until later images and videos show that the windows or facade in the western half of the south face are not blackened. At all.

This ABC still at around 1:30pm is one of the clearest examples we have proving that the south face, at least on the upper floors, wasn't on fire. At the very least that there were no fires to produce the smoke on the south face

Here's a match for one of Zafar's images:

http://archive.org/download/SteveMcCurry_M...rryNYC14148.jpg

There are many more that show the constant smoke billowing from WTC5 and 6. Is it a coincidence that the colour and density of the smoke rolling over the WTC7 facade matches at various times throughout the day?

http://archive.org/download/JayComella_jay...ycomella13a.jpg

http://archive.org/download/JayComella_jay...aycomella8a.jpg

http://archive.org/download/JayComella_jay...aycomella1a.jpg

http://archive.org/download/TerrySchmidt_I...dt_IMG_1508.jpg

http://archive.org/download/TerrySchmidt_I...dt_IMG_1506.jpg

There are no fires or smoke visible below the 7th floor all day.

Above the 7th floor, at various times during the day when the smoke cleared you can actually see that there was no blackening or smoke emanating from windows.



(IMG:http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2180/imagewzwf.jpg)

Here's a video rundown of the NISTclaims on fires on these lower floors:




Video still from above:

(IMG:http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6645/imagehwc.jpg)

This image shows the source of the southwest corner smoke:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2620/221number19.jpg

Enlarged

(IMG:http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8092/imageanx.jpg)

As I said, yes, there's smoke/smouldering but not the smoke necessary to claim that there were "diesel fires" and much less smoke or fires to suggest constant fires of 500 degrees over the hours leading up to collapse

[onesliceshort]

Hopefully you'll point out which images are "wrongly labelled" in the next post?

[SanderO]

OSS,

I have to spend a lot of time doing this... I have the following comments:

How can you say there were no fires in the lower floors or this smoke is not from B7? Looks pretty dark at the bottom as well.

http://archive.org/download/ArqueliaGalarz...ie-DSCN0365.jpg

The smoke is coming FROM B7 no?

http://regex.info/exif-data/bb33507aaf9bad...3163bfe5501.jpg

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc-105.jpg

The loading dock was on the south side and we know that there was broken windows at the lobby level as seen in some of your collection of images. We just don't seem to (as far as I can tell) have many images from the south sideduring the day... and so I can't point to images and claim there is evidence of smoke from within the building from below 7.

But there was the Jennings/Hess explosion and I am assuming there was fire associated with it... which is a safe assumption. But were is the evidence of that fire?

While there was fire from 5&6 I can't determine from the column of smoke that the origin is 5&6 ONLY and not 7 and it could be coming from low down and obviously billowing up as hot smoke does. If it's as tall as the building this DOES not mean all the floors were aflame... it could be only floors at the bottom. I simply can't tell and the images are not conclusive to me. They may be to you.

Of course if you can't see something you can conclude it's not there. But there are many things which ARE there that we don't see for any number of reasons... I won't conclude that *it's* there... I suggested a theory.

But I will say that if this would be incriminating evidence or undermine NIST or put Con Ed in the hot seat AND THEY CONTROL the evidence and the images I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to release them. On the other hand they have stated that nothing below floor 8 was of interest to them... and that I find telling. But it is not evidence.

The photo Elreb posted shows buckling... buckling is the UNIQUE outcome when the steel cannot support the imposed loads... and this could happen from heat weakening, lost of cross section and or destruction of other load paths causing the buckled steel to be overwhelmed. Steel does not buckle unless the loads exceed its yield strength PERIOD FULL STOP.

Here is a photo of an office tower on fire. How can you tell from the smoke what is burning?

http://www.chowrangi.com/wp-content/upload...ilding_fire.jpg

This post has been edited by SanderO: Jun 11 2012, 06:05 PM

[elreb]

This is the large “I” beam shown earlier. What would cause this cut? It is not a break!


(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/largebeama.jpg)

[elreb]

This is the ground level core of WTC7. Note the 4 elevators.

This core was hidden from public view and went up around 25 feet.

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/wtc7cantors1c.png)