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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ American 77 _ Readout2 Of Aa77 .fdr

Posted by: UnderTow Feb 7 2007, 01:56 PM

Well, here it is. I'll offer details later.

Right-Click Save As..
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/a77.2_complete.csv

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/a77.2_limited.csv

Edit: complete file edited. private data replaced with common names, such as Name, City, ST ZIP, Address2 etc..


jdx edit: to clarify, this is a readout of the raw fdr file.

Posted by: UnderTow Feb 7 2007, 09:46 PM

Part of the configuration of the software inserts 'customer' information for a different function of the company service and software. Hence, the last customer who was shown a demo of the product, their information is presented to show a 'real world' usage. I replaced these data points with altnernate text, saving the file once.

In order to best view the complete file, you need to Data Import into seperate Worksheets each 250'ish Columns. After finishing all Columns, copy, insert row, and paste the Counter Column from the first Worksheet to each remaining Sheet.

This file is the complete list of columns (parameters) read out from the raw file.
http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/Columns.txt 1159 parameters/columns

These two files are groups of similar information from the complete file.
http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/NAVall_complete.csv

http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/PASS_OXYall_complete.csv

When someone sees this, I can already here the cries for complete access to everything. The least of which will be the data frame information. Both me and my host had the correct file, so now I've seen two of these mystery documents. If you would like to see a complete data frame layout, good luck. Get your own.
That said, I will share a short and trimmed part of the layout (to which you can compare to your eventual discovery). If any specific questions may arise about something in paticular, it never hurts to ask.

http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/573b.Short.txt

Posted by: UnderTow Feb 7 2007, 09:58 PM

Important Note

Let me mention some details which impact anyone looking at this data.
In the reader application, only whole complete subFrames (1 second, 1 Counter) are displayed. The final Counter number for the entire length of the readable complete subFrames was 151764 in the application. When the export was done, I asked for 151766 rows in case something we had not looked at came out.

Therefore, the final two Rows 151765 151766 do not actually represent presence or absence of the final written bits of data.

Posted by: johndoeX Feb 7 2007, 10:16 PM

QUOTE (UnderTow @ Feb 7 2007, 08:46 PM)
If you would like to see a complete data frame layout, good luck. Get your own.

thumbsup.gif

cheers.gif


We're not here to cater to internet Keyboard Commando's. We are here to get answers from our govt.


If anyone would like to discuss our findings in a more professional atmosphere, please feel free to contact us at pilots@pilotsfor911truth.org.

Posted by: VirPil Nov 29 2013, 10:42 AM

QUOTE (UnderTow @ Feb 7 2007, 07:56 PM) *
to clarify, this is a readout of the raw fdr file.

So what was this file? http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=64
QUOTE (UnderTow @ Feb 8 2007, 03:46 AM) *
http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/Columns.txt
http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/NAVall_complete.csv
http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/PASS_OXYall_complete.csv
http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/573b.Short.txt
Unfortunately http://www.aa77fdr.com is http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aa77fdr.com%2F&act=url now...

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 29 2013, 03:34 PM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 29 2013, 09:42 AM) *
So what was this file? http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=64


That is the csv file as provided by the NTSB.

The NTSB provided 3 sets of data....

1. The Animation
2. CSV Files
3. The FDR raw file

The files in the first post of this thread are from the FDR raw file.

Hope this helps..

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 01:57 AM

Thanks.
So raw data was decoded by UnderTow with some utility provided by http://www.l-3ar.com/? Is it available?

Regarding coordinates NAVlat and NAVlon - are they GPS or IRS based? Here is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEAxh5r5y0 analysis based on DME data. In raw decoded data both NAVfreqMS were set to the same frequency, but starting from 13:37:13 NAV1dme demonstrates laps in frames and big deviation from NAV2dme. Something wrong here, or I just interpreted it wrong?

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 02:05 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 12:57 AM) *
Thanks.
So raw data was decoded by UnderTow with some utility provided by http://www.l-3ar.com/? Is it available?


The raw data was decoded by a CEO of an FDR Company during an ARINC Seminar in which Undertow met him there for the decode. The CEO used a laptop which contained specialized software for decoding FDR raw files. It is not available as a commercial product. Only FDR Companies, Govts and Airlines have such software. From what I understand, the software costs in excess of 100k USD.

QUOTE
Regarding coordinates NAVlat and NAVlon - are they GPS or IRS based?


According to the FDR file itself, GPS was OPERational on board. Only one problem, N644AA (flight 77), did not have this capability.

See more here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/no-hard-evidence-aa77.html

...and it is also covered more thoroughly with new evidence in Skygate 911 as well...


QUOTE
Here is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEAxh5r5y0 analysis based on DME data.


Yes, I made that video.


QUOTE
In raw decoded data both NAVfreqMS were set to 11100 (VOR DCA), but starting from 13:37:13 NAV1dme demonstrates laps in frames and big deviation from NAV2dme. Something wrong here, or I just interpreted it wrong?


If I remember correctly, the DME repeats at 17 DME for several frames. This is just more evidence why there needs to be a thorough investigation.

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 02:23 AM

QUOTE
both NAVfreqMS were set to 11100 (VOR DCA)

Ops... In raw file frequency is 1100 (I know that real DCA is 111.00 so wrote this number ). What is supposed to be (first 1 is always omitted?)?

Also what is frames timing? Is is one frame per second?
End of record has
13 37 41
13 37 41
13 37 41
13 37 41
13 37 45
13 37 45
13 37 45

How to read this?

In NTSB provided CSV file some data is one FPS, and some eight or four FPS. It was allegedly extrapolated by NTSB?

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 02:38 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 01:23 AM) *
Ops... In raw file frequency is 1100 (I know that real DCA is 111.00 so wrote this number ). What is supposed to be (first 1 is always omitted?)?

Also what is frames timing? Is is one frame per second?
End of record has
13 37 41
13 37 41
13 37 41
13 37 41
13 37 45
13 37 45
13 37 45

How to read this?


If i remember correctly, 41 and 45 repeated where it should be 42,43,44,45... .then 45, 46,47.

QUOTE
In NTSB provided CSV file some data is one FPS, and some eight or four FPS. It was allegedly extrapolated by NTSB?


The data came from the NTSB, so yes... they claim to have obtained it/decoded it.... from "Flight 77" FDR. Unfortunately, it does not support an impact with the Pentagon nor is there any evidence linking the data to N644AA, not to mention the data shows capabilities which far exceed the performance of a standard 757, in both aerodynamics and navigation. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment.

Some data is recorded once per second, some at 4 times per second.. .some at 8 times per second.... some once every 4 seconds... etc. To get an idea of the interval, you will need to look at the parameters in the Data Frame Layout. I've attached it below if you need it. Keep in mind the following Data Frame Layout was custom made by American Airlines for their aircraft, but in some instances cannot decode the FDR data in full. Again, just more evidence why there needs to be a thorough investigation. It's all covered in the links and presentations I provided above.




 757_3b_1.TXT ( 640.98K ) : 3
 

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 02:51 AM

QUOTE
If i remember correctly, 41 and 45 repeated where it should be 42,43,44,45.

Actually the same numeration method used throw the whole file
QUOTE
46,47.

But tine of impact was 45...
QUOTE
some at 4 times per second.. .some at 8 times per second

But there is only one per second frame, nevertheless.
QUOTE
It's all covered in the links and presentations I provided above.

Yes, I tried to build the whole picture and them make video in flight simulator, including view from cockpit and "pilot" action.
But different NTSB data seems to be quite contradictory...

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 02:59 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 01:51 AM) *
Actually the same numeration method used throw the whole file


If you count consecutively where the seconds repeat, you will see that they are consecutive.

For example...

13 37 41 (41)
13 37 41 (42)
13 37 41 (43)
13 37 41 (44)
13 37 45 (45)
13 37 45 (46)
13 37 45 (47)

QUOTE
But tine of impact was 45...


According to the NTSB.

QUOTE
But there is only one per second frame, nevertheless.


Not sure what you mean here. Again, the Data Frame Layout (DFL) gives the time interval for recording each parameter... over 1100 parameters are included in the DFL.

QUOTE
Yes, I tried to build the whole picture and them make video in flight simulator, including view from cockpit and "pilot" action.
But different NTSB data seems to be quite contradictory...


Yes... that is one of the major reasons we are calling for a new and thorough investigation. :-)

All of the data you see here has been provided by the NTSB. If you would like to get your own directly from the NTSB, you can, for free. Just fill out their FOIA request form. They will ship to anywhere in the world from my understanding.

https://www.ntsb.gov/palsec/palMain.aspx

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 03:04 AM

QUOTE
If you count consecutively where the seconds repeat, you will see that they are consecutive.

Yes, that's what I sad.
QUOTE
Not sure what you mean here.

I mean that despite different time sampling (up 8 FPS) for different parameters decoded file provides only one FPS.

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 03:14 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 02:04 AM) *
I mean that despite different time sampling (up 8 FPS) for different parameters decoded file provides only one FPS.


If I remember correctly, Lat/Long is only recorded once per second, just like altitude.

In contrast, G loading is recorded 8 times per second...

From the DFL... for example...

Uid: VERT_ACC
Abbrev: VERT_ACC
Name: VERTICAL ACCELERATION
Units: G's
Minimum Value: -3.187
Maximum Value: 5.80971
Digits Displayed: 2
Signed Value: No
Parameter Type: Linear
Format is y = m*x + b: m = 0.002197, b = -3.187
Sampling Freq.(hz): 8
Number of bits: 12
Locations/value: 1



GPS is only recorded once every 4 seconds....


Uid: GPS
Abbrev: GPS
Name: GPS
Units:
Minimum Value: 0
Maximum Value: 1
Digits Displayed: 0
Signed Value: No
Parameter Type: Discretes
Bitval 0 Output: INOPER
Bitval 1 Output: OPER
Sampling Freq.(hz): 0.25
Number of bits: 1
Locations/value: 1
Frame(s) Subframe(s) Word Start Bit End Bit
ALL 2 254 5 5
Number of Tests: 0


(bold mine)

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 03:19 AM

But that's what I say - there is only one row per second in raw file.

QUOTE
raw data was decoded by a CEO of an FDR Company

Probably he just set "one FPS" during decoding on his laptop to save time/space?

"FDR Company" is L3?

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 03:28 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 02:19 AM) *
But that's what I say - there is only one row per second in raw file.

Probably he just set "one FPS" during decoding on his laptop to save time/space?


It's possible. I know they had to decode the file covertly in the Lobby of the Hotel where the seminar was taking place.

When we first received the files, we tried to get the raw file decoded by Boeing, L3 and several other FDR companies. They wanted between 5-10k to decode the file. Then when they found out where the file came from, they refused to decode it.

One CEO then contacted Undertow to meet him privately at the ARINC seminar and he will decode the file for us. And he did.. for free.

QUOTE
"FDR Company" is L3?


Well, if we mention who the CEO is.. he could lose his job... lol. But you are more than welcome to search FDR companies to get your own decode of the raw file. If you do, I would recommend getting a decode from an FDR Expert... and not some guy on the web who has no experience with FDR data.

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 03:36 AM

QUOTE
we tried to get the raw file decoded by Boeing, L3 and several other FDR companies

Binary file is begins from text block

QUOTE
// L3 Communications, Aviation Recorders
VERSION = 1
SEGMENT = 1
TYPE = FULL
FIRSTBLOCK = 0
NUMBLOCKS = 192
LOOPBLOCKS = 192
CUR_INDEX = 28 19328 28 19072
;EOH


that's why I mentioned L3.
QUOTE
Then when they found out where the file came from, they refused to decode it.
if we mention who the CEO is.. he could lose his job

Something changed from 2007?

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 02:36 AM) *
Binary file is begins from text block



that's why I mentioned L3.


According to the NTSB, the data came from an L3 Recorder.

However, the raw file has a create date prior to the FDR being recovered in the Pentagon. This is also covered in Skygate 911.

Here is the raw FDR file in its original form as provided by the NTSB (albeit zipped). Note the create date of the file after you unzip it.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/p4t/AA77_Raw.zip

The FDR wasn't found until the dark early morning hours of Sept 14, 2001. And even that is questionable...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/FDR_location_091607.html

QUOTE
Something changed from 2007?


The files havent changed.

Again, feel free to contact FDR companies to get your own decode. Or use the decode from the NTSB.

For your purposes.. all you really need is lat/long, altitude and airspeed... all recorded once per second.

Technically you don't even need airspeed. You asked for the coordinates, they are here. Up to you what you want to do with them.

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 04:13 AM

It's also interesting to demonstrate Hani Hanjour's alleged actions - setting altimeter, tuning VOR.

By a way, what is IRS precision (especially used in B757 produced in 1991 )? I read that it has drift about 1 naut.mile per hour.

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 03:13 AM) *
It's also interesting to demonstrate Hani Hanjour's alleged actions - setting altimeter, tuning VOR.


I think those are also recorded once per second. Interesting to note the altimeters were set on both sides of the aircraft with a more accurate altimeter setting than the one which was being broadcast at DCA at the time.... again.. according to the data. However, the NTSB omitted the setting on the descent from their animation. This is covered in our film "Flight Of American 77" and also detailed http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=15&view=findpost&p=992727...

QUOTE
By a way, what is IRS precision (especially used in B757 produced in 1991 )? I read that it has drift about 1 naut.mile per hour.


Depends on the aircraft. If it is GPS equipped (which N644AA was not), and present position was set properly at the Gate prior to Departure (which it was not according to the data), the IRS is very accurate due to updates in-flight from the GPS.

In fact, the IRS aligned in-flight after not being set properly at the gate. N644AA did not have this capability... but Military aircraft did in 2001.

And again.. this is all covered thoroughly in our new presentation Skygate 911.

Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 06:23 AM

QUOTE
(which N644AA was not

And I mean this case.
Here is it: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system#Error" Can we treat 757 INS as "good-quality"?

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 08:21 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 05:23 AM) *
And I mean this case.
Here is it: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system#Error" Can we treat 757 INS as "good-quality"?


It depends on how the "757" is equipped.... and if it were given "good" information at the start of the flight.

This is the initial Lat/Long plot from the data provided by the NTSB.



Does a 757 regularly take-off from the grass about 3000 feet south of the runway? smile.gif

Read more here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/aa77-gate-position.html

and here....
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/no-hard-evidence-aa77.html




Posted by: VirPil Nov 30 2013, 09:38 AM

QUOTE
if it were given "good" information at the start of the flight.

Drift itself doesn't depend on initial settings.

What I try to do is act as if coordinates/altitude were true and show, that alleged terrorist actions were completely meaningless (not speaking about possibility cool.gif ). So to simplify task I assume that final point is point of impact and then apply delta to each point of last part of plane path.


Meanwhile I prepared KML file for Google Earth with all three paths - baro raw, NTSB and raw radio.
I adjusted baro altitude to 9:41 METAR A3022 (aircraft was set to 30.23). Radio altitude is 270M above the ground at all... The NSTB baro path is lower than raw, but still above building. We can attribute it to altimeter precision, but I think it in any case can't be ground level...

Can I attach it to message?

Also I have an idea to take X-Plane (quite realistic flight simulator program), B757-200 model and apply to her N2, pitch and roll. It's interesting to see what happen then - whether simulated aircraft will follow official path (sure, we can not get 100% precession, but I guess we'll learn general picture).

Posted by: rob balsamo Nov 30 2013, 09:58 AM

QUOTE (VirPil @ Nov 30 2013, 08:38 AM) *
Drift itself doesn't depend on initial settings.


If the initial position is not accurate, the rest of the flight will not be accurate if the aircraft is not equipped with a GPS. Garbage in = Garbage out.

Read more here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=21149&view=findpost&p=10795879

QUOTE
What I try to do is act as if coordinates/altitude were true and show, that alleged terrorist actions were completely meaningless (not speaking about possibility cool.gif ). So to simplify task I assume that final point is point of impact and then apply delta to each point of last part of plane path.


If you apply delta to all the lat/long points based on slewing the last point to the "impact point", the initial points will be more in error than already seen.

QUOTE
Meanwhile I prepared KML file for Google Earth with all three paths - baro raw, NTSB and raw radio.
I adjusted baro altitude to 9:41 METAR A3022 (aircraft was set to 30.23). Radio altitude is 270M above the ground at all... The NSTB baro path is lower than raw, but still above building. We can attribute it to altimeter precision, but I think it in any case can't be ground level...


The "baro" altitude is much more precise than the Radio Alt at those speeds as the Radio Alt was operating way outside it's tracking capability.... more than double..



.... the pitot-static system is rated to Mach 0.86.

QUOTE
Can I attach it to message?


You can try, but I dont think the forum software allows KML files.

QUOTE
Also I have an idea to take X-Plane (quite realistic flight simulator program), B757-200 model and apply to her N2, pitch and roll. It's interesting to see what happen then - whether simulated aircraft will follow official path (sure, we can not get 100% precession, but I guess we'll learn general picture).


We were going to do that as well as we only had the csv files initially from the NTSB. But then we received the animation from the NTSB so we abandoned the X-Plane import. The csv files match the NTSB animation pretty well, except for the issues already discussed.

If you import into X-plane, make a video, I'd like to check it out.

But always keep in mind.. there is no evidence linking the data to N644AA. The data could have come from anywhere, including a more sophisticated flight sim program more advanced than X-Plane. Both X-plane and MSFS have the ability to import and export .fdr files.

However, the fact that it does come from the NTSB and is claimed to come from N644AA, yet doesnt support the govt story, is cause for alarm.

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