Jet Fuel Burn Rates Options

[Sanders]

Yes, office debris puts out a lot of heat when it burns also.

There is no such thin as a non-flammable office.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5C.pdf

Yeah, but there are codes that have to be met to make stuff - ever drop a cigarette on a carpet without noticing? The carpet doesn't catch fire. The point is, office furniture fires don't endanger steel-framed structures. The whole much-repeated idea that it was all that jet-fuel that made these fires extraordinary is a fallacy.

I'll be watching this thread, I really don't want to put it in the debate forum, because this is a relevant topic for people just browsing here that don't have access there. (i.e. Keep it civil, everyone. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif) )

[Roark]

The point is, office furniture fires don't endanger steel-framed structures.

Tell that to the nine Charelston firefighters that died last year when the sofa store fire they were fighting caused the steel framed roof of the building to fail and collapse on them.

(IMG:http://media.charleston.net/img/photos/2007/06/18/sofa_store_fire-1_t600.jpg)


(IMG:http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_charleston_fire10_070619_ssh.jpg)

[rob balsamo]

Was the sofa store a Class A OSHA Skyscraper?

Roarke, please review our forum rules. Enjoy your vacation.

[dMz]

OK, assuming that you are right. Let’s say that 4000 gallons of jet fuel burned up inside the building in 10 minutes.

That would equal 887 megawatts of heat energy released into the building or that average energy output of a typical coal fired electrical generating plant.

Ummm, isn't heat energy measured in joules (J), calories, or BTU's? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/energy.html

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

There's a flux capacitor joke to be made here, but I'll let it slide this time...

[dMz]

That value is for an open pool flame with no heat accumulation and all the reactants at standard temperature and pressure. Those conditions do not exist inside of a structure fire.

Well if there's no "heat accumulation"- would there even be a fire in the first place? As in no heat means no fire- period. See the "Fire Triangle":
http://ehs.sc.edu/modules/Fire/01_triangle.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_triangle

Maybe "heat accumulation" means specific heat-
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html

Maybe "heat accumulation" means Heat of Combustion-
http://www.webmo.net/curriculum/heat_of_co...ustion_key.html
[I'll let Roark look this one up for jet fuel specifically- it was Roark's assertion here after all]

http://www.colorado.edu/Chemistry/chem4581_91/HCF.pdf

Pray tell, what P & T conditions exactly did exist inside the WTC 1, 2, 7 "structure fire"(s)? So it's no longer a fuel fire then? Or office furnishing fire? Or ?? [Ed: weren't the structure(s) made of steel? Now there's an ignition temperature for you, unless thermite/thermate is involved. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif) ] I haven't seen any documented, instrumented data on that before.

I'm fairly certain that structural steel would melt LONG before it reached its ignition temperature [tensile or yield strength(s) not really relevant in this context BTW]- it is often called a "foundry," or "steel mill" and that's where structural beams and "columns" come from. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/yes1.gif)

Here are some pictures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_mill

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/

EDIT: Steel temperature charts at:
http://www.beautifuliron.com/usingthe.htm

http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

[dMz]

Yes, office debris puts out a lot of heat when it burns also.

There is no such thin as a non-flammable office.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5C.pdf

GLITTERING GENERALITY ALERT:
Thanks for the link Roark (that painter already gave us up-thread BTW),

Here are another 2 posts up-thread that you may have missed. Care to provide calculations for heat (or temperatures- that would probably be easier BTW) for "a lot of heat" inside WTC1, 2, and 7? 10,000 pages really is a lot to sift/glean through- have you read the entire thing personally? Page numbers or section numbers can be helpful when citing references.

APA Internet Reference style:
http://linguistics.byu.edu/faculty/henrich.../apa/APA09.html

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....t&p=7152283

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....t&p=7160727

This post has been edited by dMole: May 24 2008, 02:21 AM

[dMz]

Unfortunately, it's from Wikipedia (SOURCED input from the lurking debunkers that refutes this is welcome on this one point for commercial Jet-A and Jet-A1).

"JET A-1

Flash point: 38 °C
Autoignition temperature: 210 °C
Freezing point: −47 °C (−40 °C for JET A)

Open air burning temperatures: 260–315 °C (500–599 °F)
Maximum burning temperature: 980 °C (1796 °F)

Density at 15 °C (60 °F): 0.775–0.840 kg/L"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the interior of the WTC Twin Towers and Pentagon be considerably less aspirated than "open air?"

EDIT: Wiki has a broken Chevron-Texaco link. Try Ch.4 & Ch. 6 of :
http://www.chevronglobalaviation.com/docs/...arks&page=1

http://www.chevronglobalaviation.com/docs/...tech_review.pdf

Shell Aviation Products
http://www.shell.com/home/content/uk-om/sh...d_services.html

Exxon-Mobil
http://www.exxonmobilaviation.com/Aviation...cations2005.pdf

http://www.exxonmobil.com/AviationGlobal/F...lSpec2008_1.pdf

BP
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/a...ook_04004_1.pdf

Current US prices:
http://www.100ll.com/?gclid=CIiSxKGk6JMCFRghnAodGDW3Ww

EDIT: Well apparently according to NIST's Dr. Sunder, the Towers were now airtight, like pistons:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10747736

Reason for edit: Pistons?

[JFK]

For a better source try this dMole :

http://www.apexoil.com/msdsjet.pdf

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[bill]

I was at Ansul (fire extinguisher manufacturer) They also make a 'foam truck' that sprays a pink fire retardant foam

I was there when they did a test for the Air force

They have a pond that measures about 50 feet X 50 feet that they filled with Jet fuel

they had to use an accelerant (heptane) to get it started, they poured about 15 gallons of it around the outside of the pool and lit that

it took about 20 seconds before it really got fully involved -- we were standing about 60 feet from the flame and it was warm but not hot

a wood bon fire seems much hotter IMO

The foam truck put the flame out in about a minute too -- very impressive

In regards to the WTC it looks as if most of the fuel flashed outside the towers

also relevent here is the famous picture of the woman standing in the gash with out being burned up

my 2 cents

[dMz]

C'mon O892,

I KNOW you've got some info to add here- still got any specifications or old books on the RN versions? I know the USAF used "flashier" JP-4 (NATO F-40) until about 1996.

EDIT: Courtesy of those humanitarians at BP, I just found something. While historical, it's pretty thin on specifications.

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do...contentId=57733

Also, I will take data on any fuel's lower and higher heating values (LHV & HHV) for other research.

[dMz]

There is a lot of sourced info at jakeogh's page- see under link "Jet Fuel":

http://nasathermalimages.com/

[dMz]

The Jet Fuel; How Hot Did it Heat the World Trade Center?

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/how-hot.htm

[dMz]

Here is more MSDS and other info on Jet A fuel:

http://www.spragueenergy.com/documents/MSD...20Fuel%2006.pdf

http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/ch...fuel/cie768.htm

"Composition/Purity:
The most important aspect of evaluating the hazards of any petroleum distillate is accurate definition of the material in question. The source of the crude petroleum, the boiling range of the distillate and all of the processing and refining steps influence the composition and hazards of the resulting petroleum distillate. The composition of Jet A is established by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) in consultation with manufacturers and users. The specifications are based primarily on performance characteristics. There is no standard formula for Jet A. The straight-run kerosene stream is used for aviation fuel production. Jet A and Jet A-1 are mixtures of aliphatic and aromatic hydrocarbons with carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C9-C16 and which meet the requirements of ASTM specification D 1655.(24) Jet A and Jet A-1 only differ in freezing point. According to the specification, the maximum allowed level of aromatic hydrocarbons is 25% (by volume) and 3% naphthalenes (by volume). Total sulfur (0.3% by weight) and mercaptan sulfur (0.003% by weight) are present as impurities. Jet A has a distillation range of less than 205 to 300 deg C (401 to 572 deg F). The physical properties given in this review are either for specific products, from the specification or for straight-run kerosene (CAS 8008-20-6). The specification lists a number of additives that may be used in jet fuels. Typical additives include an antioxidant (e.g. 2,6-di-tert-butylphenol and tert- and tri-tert-butylphenols), a metal deactivator (e.g., N,N- disalicylidene-1,2-propanediamine), an electrical conductivity additive (e.g. Stadis 450), a static inhibitor, a fuel system icing inhibitor (e.g. diethylene glycol monomethyl ether), a corrosion of steel inhibitor, a lubrication improver, a biocide, a fuel lubricity additive, and a thermal stability improver. The presence of additives can contribute significantly to the overall hazards of a particular jet fuel product. Consult the manufacturer/supplier of your specific product for additional information."
----------------
DOT/FAA Jet A Volatility Survey

http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar0730.pdf

"An automated Grabner Instruments MINIVAP VPS vapor pressure tester was used to conduct the ASTM D 5191. Although the vapor pressure of Jet A is so low that there is no actual value given in the ASTM D 1655 Jet A fuel specification, it was determined that testing the samples for vapor pressure could be used as an alert. If any samples exhibited a significant reading from this test, it would indicate possible fuel contamination. The vapor pressure tests were conducted by FAA engineering technicians."

-----------------
Miramar Naval Air Station jet engine emissions test

http://www.areco.org/pdf/ParticulateEmissi...Engines1996.pdf

[dMz]

Combustion chemistry at Section 5.1 of:

http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/ara/arc/rm/2982.pdf

(The attempted equation paste was very ugly).

[amazed!]

Those towers did not BURN, they EXPLODED

I guess Roark was a no-show, eh? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[dMz]

There is more good information on jet fuel at this page (but I found a typo that should be ft³ instead of "ft^2" when converting from gallons):

Jet Fuel

Here is a good units conversion and reference page:

http://www.convert-me.com/en/