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Hello Everyone. So.... Is That It?

IsaacNewton
post Nov 18 2013, 08:27 PM
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poppyburner "To be clear, I'm not disputing the claim's accuracy...."

While the accuracy of the original claim by the High School teacher David Chandler based on the video may have been in question, the formal analysis of the video conducted by the NIST refined and verified the finding. There's no longer any worry about the "claim's accuracy" or any disagreement whatsoever that free fall occurred for 8 stories, or 105 feet.... It's an officially recorded matter of fact.

poppyburner "....but rather making an example of the ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part)."

Actually, it looks like the buzz phrase "free fall" works quite nicely.... It remains (officially) unexplained.
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 19 2013, 08:03 PM
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poppyburner "After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray."

There's a whole constellation of questions (of varying significance) needing answers, but it won't be productive to ask them all at once. Independent researchers seem increasingly focussed on the unique circumstances surrounding WTC 7.

The only "black hole" is the one the government is creating, as it continues to this day to conceal evidence and refuse to discuss any aspect of it and label anyone who questions it as crazy, dangerous or both.... Very disturbing.

This post has been edited by IsaacNewton: Nov 19 2013, 08:05 PM
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poppyburner
post Nov 19 2013, 10:14 PM
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But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime? It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report.

This evokes Truther Abby Martin (now a Russia Today television presenter) deeming Building 7 to be the most compelling piece of evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwANnpfE7L4 @ 1:31 ...but didn't explain why.

In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man.

I'm not calling for answers to every question. Just a cogent, chronological description of the main actions by the guilty parties in that day, which brought about the well-known results.

Imo, the Salomon Brothers' building, is probably the last piece in a much larger and woefully incomplete puzzle.

C'mon Newton. One can't blame the perpetrators' reticence for our parochial shirking.

'george carlin on 9/11 (our owners won't investigate themselves; dumb slaves don't notice/care)' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO8vs2VNJUg
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 20 2013, 01:44 AM
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poppyburner "But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime?"

Well, let me ponder that in great detail for a tenth of a second.... My thinking is that it's extremely likely that if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. Is that a stretch for you?

poppyburner "It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report."

Right, I feel you man.... shockingly predictable isn't it?

poppyburner "This evokes Truther Abby Martin (now a Russia Today television presenter) deeming Building 7 to be the most compelling piece of evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwANnpfE7L4 @ 1:31 ...but didn't explain why."


It evokes Truther Abby Martin? Oh man, that's rich! Let me get this straight.... You're relying on Abbey Martin for accurate information to solve the greatest crime in American history? Forget about it man, check this guy out.

poppyburner "In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man."

First, free fall is a "buzz phrase", next you don't question the "claim's accuracy" and now it's "the 'free fall' charge" doesn't satisfy the common man. I am a common man, and it has satisfied me. It's not a buzz phrase, a claim or a charge.... It's just a fact man!

This post has been edited by IsaacNewton: Nov 20 2013, 01:47 AM
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 20 2013, 02:21 AM
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rockymtriser "....there do remain questions and disagreements in the community of honest researchers."

Not about WTC 7. It probably represents the single most powerful piece of evidence there is, along with its "Tenant List" which may well betray the ones who pulled it off. That building had some of the tightest security in the nation, and there are only a handful of people that could have defeated it, and thereby the government.... from within.

If one follows the science, as one must, it's beyond evident now (and has been for some years) that WTC 7 was brought down with explosives. There is no other explanation that fits the physical evidence, the eyewitness accounts and the scientific observations, all of which are consistent with unimaginably simple, and irrefutable, physical principles.

This post has been edited by IsaacNewton: Nov 20 2013, 02:26 AM
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 20 2013, 03:02 AM
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rockymtriser "So how can we step forward making demands of those esteemed ones who have spoken up about inconsistencies of the government story, insisting that they confront the government directly...."

How can we not? They're the only ones that can do this. So, maybe not an "Occupy" type of arrangement.... Perhaps a one or two day well advertised protest outside the Justice Department with the international media in attendance, volunteering, even demanding, to meet with the Attorney General immediately to discuss testifying as expert witnesses in a criminal investigation of the WTC 7 demolition.
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 20 2013, 03:21 AM
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rockymtriser "Change will follow a natural sequence."

So, you believe that with patience, and by calmly continuing to spread awareness, a "natural sequence" will eventually just automatically restore Democracy to the most powerful country in the world after being hijacked (only temporarily, nothing serious) by a covert political entity willing to kill American citizens in furtherance of an unknown agenda? That's a very curious thing to say.... Was it meant to be humorous?

This post has been edited by IsaacNewton: Nov 20 2013, 03:22 AM
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rockymtriser
post Nov 20 2013, 10:27 AM
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So, you believe that with patience, and by calmly continuing to spread awareness, a "natural sequence" will eventually just automatically restore Democracy to the most powerful country in the world after being hijacked (only temporarily, nothing serious) by a covert political entity willing to kill American citizens in furtherance of an unknown agenda? That's a very curious thing to say.... Was it meant to be humorous?
[/quote]

Yes, IsaacNewton, I believe in patience and perseverance in the spreading of awareness as paramount to bringing about change. There has been plenty of screaming and frantic shouting down of naysayers, as people vent their justifiable outrage and frustration, but this approach tends to turn people away. What I have seen working is the calm deliberate presenting of the facts. I recall a comment of Geraldo Rivera, who once flipped off a group of "truthers" whose chanting interrupted his live on the street broadcast. He later admitted coming around to questioning the official story himself due to the case being presented by the architects and engineers and the victims families. Bottom line, when those telling the story come across as obnoxious, scary, dangerous, rude and mean, people do not want to listen, while a calm, honest, informed and respectful approach has a greater effect.

And yes, I do see a natural sequence to change, not even trying to be funny here. Perhaps the first phase was the rebellious clamor that turned people off... perfectly natural and understandable, but not effective. "You shouted at me, so now I am going to change my way of thinking to yours" said no one ever... The phase I see happening now is one of spreading awareness while calling for a new investigation. Why not just jump ahead and take it to court now? Certainly we want justice, and we want it right away! But, realistically, there is a sequence which works, and there are well intentioned but poorly planned efforts which fail. We need first to inform the people, to reach a tipping point of awareness, because most cases are swayed by public opinion, like it or not. And then there is "discovery". Sure, there have been plenty of independent investigations done by private citizens, but to bring down the real culprits of this Crime we do need the clout of an official investigation.

I am certainly not claiming to have all the answers, to know how to restore this democracy, and I genuinely do appreciate your thoughts and ideas and spirit. We are in this together.
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rockymtriser
post Nov 20 2013, 10:49 AM
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And yes, I absolutely agree with the importance of Building 7. It is the Achilles Heel of the official story, making it a natural starting point for investigation of the whole interwoven plot. Once you see how this building fell, while not hit by any plane, you inevitably take a closer look at the collapse of the twin towers, and from there you can't help but start looking at all of the rest of the inconsistencies to this whole story. So yeah, poppy, if you want real evidence of the crime, it is here, and it is overwhelming. Something went seriously wrong with the plan, I suspect, concerning Building 7, so now all that is left is to try to belittle it. That is not working out so well for them. Building 7 was the focus of the latest worldwide PR effort by the ReThink911 campaign. http://rethink911.org/
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rockymtriser
post Nov 20 2013, 10:55 AM
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One more note: just to say, we are not at a standstill in this movement. Things are happening, so don't be discouraged. If you do get anything going with some sort of outreach to the government by the esteemed parties mentioned, I would back that also. One development I have been following, as I have a close friend involved, is the effort in New Jersey to have an official investigation into 9/11 done in that state. check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd5xpl3zxq4
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rockymtriser
post Nov 20 2013, 11:05 AM
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Poppyburner, I get the impression that you are looking for a wider view of the whole story of 9/11. Might I suggest watching the new Massimo Mazzucco film "September 11- The New Pearl Harbor"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GCeuSr3Mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DegLpgJmFL8

It does a fantastic job covering the whole story (as well as can be done in a mere 6 hours...) while facing off with the debunkers directly.
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 20 2013, 11:50 AM
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Thanks for that rockymtriser, you strike me as a reasonable person (didn't mean to come on too strong) and, right.... all in it together.
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 20 2013, 08:10 PM
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rockymtriser "Yes, IsaacNewton, I believe in patience and perseverance in the spreading of awareness as paramount to bringing about change."

I agree, that's a vital element man, but there are big problems and major implications that go along with the knowledge that WTC 7 was explosively demolished. That approach, however well intentioned, will with all likelihood fail in this situation, since the very law at hand to remedy the situation itself has been taken over, as evidenced by the cover-up, destruction of evidence, continued hiding of evidence and flat refusal to investigate or even discuss the incident, and labeling anyone who questions the official account as crazy, dangerous or both.

The patient, reasoned approach still appears to work at the level of, say, some regional legal issue, something like a labor dispute at WALMART perhaps, or a mayoral recall election. At the very highest levels though, if WTC 7 was demolished.... the stakes get much, much higher.

It would logically follow (open to correction) that if WTC 7 could be explosively demolished without any criminal investigation, charges or anyone being arrested, and looking at the official response (or lack of it) that though the appearance of democracy is being maintained for the time being, in reality....

1. On September 11, 2001, a small group of highly placed rogue elements within the United States government, a covert political entity, took over the United States government. As no one has ever been charged with any crime, it must be assumed that the criminal conspiracy continues to date, over twelve years later.... On that day, the country fomerly known as the U.S.A. (United States of America) effectively ended, and the U.S.C.P.E. (United States of a Covert Political Entity) effectively began.

2. The same criminal conspiracy carried out by this small group of people, a covert political entity, which inadvertantly made itself visible that day but has likely existed much longer (Northwoods, Gladio, etc.) continues to exercise complete control over what was once known as the United States government, operating with impunity right up to the present.... There can be no doubt.

3. None of you are any longer living in a Democracy and verifiably haven't been since September 11, 2001 (probably much earlier). On that day the Constitution of the United States was seen to be indefinitely suspended. The Patriot Act, NSA spying, wars and drone programs, torture (enhanced interrogation) and the ever increasing nationwide DHS lockdown, including the stockpiling of "maximum impact" hollow point ammunition, plastic coffins or "vaults", and the construction of numerous "facilities" that look like prisons, clearly shows the control being exercised by this covert political entity over the country.... and it's being steadily reinforced.

4. For as long as this small group of people, this covert political entity, remains in control of this country, the President of the United States and everyone beneath him, the entire chain of command, both military and legislative, has effectively been relieved of the ability to make independent decisions for the country or carry out their sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution.

5. All the votes you've cast since that day, up to the present, and all the votes you cast in the decades ahead that it will take for this situation to be satisfactorily resolved (no guarantee), will be utterly meaningless since, whoever wins any given election (no matter which party), and whoever is appointed to any government post will, directly or indirectly, knowingly or unknowingly, be answering up a new and alien imposed Chain of Command that's under the complete control of the covert political entity that brought about 9/11.... all as part of their official daily affairs.

6. Over the last twelve years, up to the present, and for the decades ahead that it may take to arrive at some satisfactory resolution (no guarantee), you will have been knowingly handing over your tax dollars to a covert political entity you knew not to be the United States government.
During the entire time, from September 11, 2001 until the day it's resolved your tax dollars have been and will continue to be controlled by a covert political entity other than the United States government. The implications, even on a personal level, are staggering.

Finally.... What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it?

This post has been edited by IsaacNewton: Nov 20 2013, 08:11 PM
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poppyburner
post Nov 20 2013, 10:09 PM
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'... My thinking is that it's extremely likely that if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. Is that a stretch for you?' ~ Newton.

Frankly yes. Presuming the demolition went against the owners' wishes; what charge (sorry if that term offends) are you alluding to? Criminal damage?
For what it's worth, personally, I suspect that its Office of Emergency Management was at least used to remotely iniate the demolition of the twin towers, then was later gutted and obliterated itself (along with the entire structure), to destroy incriminating evidence.

rockymtriser,

Thanks for the links. 6 hours! Gosh. Ok, I'll give it a go.
But if it contains the answers I'm looking for, then why aren't they widely accepted and repeated?

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IsaacNewton
post Nov 21 2013, 12:13 AM
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poppyburner "Frankly yes. Presuming the demolition went against the owners' wishes; what charge (sorry if that term offends) are you alluding to? Criminal damage?

Presuming the demolition went against the owners wishes? What charges? I'm incredulous.... You're saying you believe it may be a stretch to say a crime must have been committed by explosively demolishing a skyscraper without warning that housed offices for the SEC, IRS, CIA, OEM and Secret Service? You at least seem to be indicating here that possibly, depending on the mental disposition of the owner at the time, that perhaps maybe it wasn't a crime after all.... Is that what you're saying?
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poppyburner
post Nov 21 2013, 10:53 PM
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No. It's merely a stretch to comprehend specifically which crime/s you're implying. Public endangerment?

'Because of the time span of the events, everyone was able to evacuate the building and there were no casualties within Building 7.' ~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...sumed-fire.html
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rockymtriser
post Nov 22 2013, 02:33 AM
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C'mon Poppyburner, get real... is it really hard for you to comprehend that destruction of a federal building could be a crime? Were it an isolated incident, it would certainly be a huge story all by itself: a 47 story sky scraper housing offices of the IRS, CIA, Secret Service, the SEC (which included the bulk of evidence in the Enron scandal), the NY Mayors office of Emergency Management, three insurance companies and five financial institutions, taken down in seconds, clearly via pre-set explosives. Happening as it did in the shadow of a much larger conspiracy is what has hidden it from more widespread awareness (along with what is surely a cover-up / hush order involving the media...)

You seem to be implying that, hey, no big deal, everyone got out okay, so don't worry about it! Yeah, incredulous is the word. (meaning you are losing credibility in this discussion...)

Also, in fact, not everyone did get out unharmed. Barry Jennings and Michael Hess were trapped inside by explosions occurring below level 8 BEFORE either of the twin towers had collapsed! Barry Jennings later was murdered after speaking out to Avery, producer of the film Loose Change, and just before the NIST report came out claiming there were no witnesses to explosions in wtc7...
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 22 2013, 02:57 AM
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poppyburner "No. It's merely a stretch to comprehend specifically which crime/s you're implying."

I don't recall implying anything. I do recall you asking me the question.... "But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime?"
That's really a rather strange question to ask when one thinks about it.... How could it not be linked to a crime? I said if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. That's not implying anything, it's stating a fact. I can't fathom how anyone could possibly see it any other way.

Let me tell you man, when it comes right down to it.... If it's a stretch for you to comprehend that it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition, or willful destruction, of a skyscraper that housed various federal agencies such as the Internal Revenue Service, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the United States Secret Service, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Department of Defense, the New York City Office of Emergency Management along with a couple of banks and insurers, well, you're going to need way, way more help than I can give you man! I'm just an old Artist/Tinkerer guy. I don't know how many thousands of charges that would amount to. Instead.... Why don't you try to tell me how you think it might not have been a crime?

poppyburner "Public endangerment?"

Yeah, Public Endangerment.... Sound the alarm! You're a riot! First, an investigation. Charges arise from an investigation, not the other way around.

poppyburner 'Because the time span of the events, everyone was able to evacuate the building and there were no casualties within Building 7.' ~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...sumed-fire.html

Relevance? Here again, my impression is that you seem to be trying somehow to subtly downplay the significance of the event. Sort of like saying.... "Well, no one died in that building. So what's the big deal?"

In the same way, you seemed to try to downplay the fact of free fall of WTC 7 too, first calling it a "buzz phrase", next calling it a "claim" and then calling it a "charge". It just strikes me as odd, in fact, just odd enough for me to ask you again....

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rockymtriser
post Nov 22 2013, 02:58 AM
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IsaacNewton, I absolutely agree with your assessment of the situation we are in. and What To Do about it is a very good question. Obviously the hidden Powers behind the attacks of 9/11 are very powerful and connected. Many who have tried to stand up to them have been destroyed. The government is in their grasp, as you say, and so cannot ever succeed to take them down. So what do we do?

The situation is serious enough to merit civil war, but what chance could civilians have against powers that control a military whose spending exceeds that of the next 30 countries combined! I actually think they would like to see such an attempt, to give excuse to crack down even harder on civil liberties.

So, to my naive mind, there is just one viable option, and that is to continue to spread awareness, because, as powerful as this wicked cabal may be, the People truly are more powerful, did they but know. When awareness of this Crime becomes dominant and widespread in all walks of society, only then will power be taken from the hidden ones.

My realistic mind though warns that, though I may hope for the best, and work towards it, still it is wise to prepare for the worst. Chances are, things will get a lot worse before they get better...
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IsaacNewton
post Nov 22 2013, 07:25 AM
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Yeah rockymtriser.... it's a very tough spot to be in. Especially when the reality of it starts to sink in. It's funny you know, when I'm out and about, how no one seems to be concerned in the least. Everyone's just going about their business as if nothing happened.... talk about a seamless transition!

I don't really know what can be done either. My understanding is that this "arrangement" goes back at least fifty years with Operation Gladio. It's now common knowledge that in 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all of them, actually approved plans for carrying out secret "operations" that included the killing of innocent American citizens as a pretext for invasion and subsequent long term occupation of Cuba.

Believe it or not, they even approved blowing up the rocket that launched John Glenn into space, and afterward the plan was to fabricate phony electronic jamming equipment made to look like it was from Cuba, again, as a pretext for invasion and subsequent long term occupation.

This was all presented to President Kennedy at the time. He decided not to go that route though and turned down the plans. Looks like it didn't work out so well for him.... Looks like they made an "operation" out of him!
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