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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Newcomer Forum _ Hello Everyone. So.... Is That It?

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 15 2013, 05:47 AM

I don't think any rational person who looks at the overwhelming mountain of evidence can avoid the obvious conclusion that highly placed individuals within the United States Government are at least partly, if not solely, responsible for the events of September 11, 2001. I'm just wondering now, as I survey the seemingly endless list of people whose reputations, credentials and collective experience are literally above reproach....

http://patriotsquestion911.com/


Is that it? I understand they've had the courage to step forward and demand answers by signing a petition but.... Where is the outrage? It's been well over a decade now and, presumably, the same individuals who were responsible for this crime, which can only be described as purest evil, are still in control of this country today, and are still actively engaged, right now, in committing further crimes! Crimes which, as someone on the that long list of noteworthy people put it "....may signal the end of the American Experiment". How can this be?

It's going to take more than a petition to resolve this issue. An emergency situation requires an emergency response.... This is an emergency and has been since September 11, 2001. Do they honestly believe that their petition willl motivate the same government that committed the crime to indict and convict itself? If the American people don't take action, and soon, it will be over.

It may already be to late.... I don't know how much credibility to attach to them, but I'm reading on the internet about the Department Of Homeland Security stockpiling billions of rounds of hollow point ammunition, mysterious "facilities" that resemble prisons being built all over the country and large plastic coffins, or "vaults" being stockpiled by FEMA, alledgedly "....just in case something happens". That doesn't sound very good. If anyone has any reliable information about that I'd be grateful to review it, if they'd care to post it.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 15 2013, 07:08 AM

While I'm here in the introduction forum, I think I'll share one of my drawings with you (I was once an artist)....

Here is "The Temple" A Pen and Ink drawing I did using a Rapidograph drafting pen that draws a line about the width of a human hair. About 20x24 inches, all freehand, no preliminary sketch, loosely modeled on a Roman style temple in Turkey I saw a picture of. The technique is stippling (dots). It took between three and four hundred hours. I hope you enjoy it!




Posted by: EJT Nov 15 2013, 07:42 AM

Your missive sounds akin to the lyrics of 'Is that all there is? by Peggy Lee"

There really is only one way out of this mess in which we find ourselves: A New Paradigm Of Government.

You see? The Founders of the United States of America, were working with what they had at the time, and with what they were familiar. The problem though was that they weren't sufficiently far-seeing enough. Their plan was to seek an 'immediate solution' to their present problem.

Thomas Paine warned appropriately enough: "When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary."

Even back then, the plan for government was full of holes, and ~that~ was fully revealed with the entirely treasonous, conniving, and machinating Alexander Hamiliton , he with his incessant invidious attacks upon Thomas Jefferson. He further revealed for scum bag he was, when he lead the charge into Pennsylvania against the Whiskey Rebellion.

The New Paradigm Of Government has in its essence, the weakest of governments, for it will be the People themselves who make ALL the law through quarterly plebiscites. No elected or appointed person will have ~any~ power to enact anything, period. For any law, rule, or regulation to be enacted, a bare minimum of 80% of ALL the citizens MUST vote in the affirmative, or the suggested legislation fails, and cannot again be placed before the People for a period of 20 years.

Excepting the various Constitutions, any law, rule, or regulation may be overturned at any plebiscite with no less than 20+% of citizenry, inasmuch as that would indicate fewer than 80% supported the continuation of that law.

Further yet, ALL laws, rules, and regulations —save the various Constitutions— expire at the end of their third year of existence, unless 80% of the citizenry votes to extend for another three years.

Additionally, in NO CASE —regardless— shall any law, rule, regulation or other effect in law be enacted which shall in any way, manner, fashion, shape or form, impede, diminish, infringe, limit, contravene, negate or otherwise intrude upon whatever individual right of the People.

In its essence, the New Paradigm places ALL the power —and responsibility— of government into the hands of the People where it rightfully, and justly belongs.

If the People are making the law, then they WILL know exactly what is in that law, and how it will affect their lives.

Had A New Paradigm Of Government been in operation, then the United States Of America would NOT have been in any of the wars in which it had engaged, from 1812 onwards.




Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 15 2013, 10:00 AM

Good question there, Mr. Newton! (and, btw, awesome drawing too!) I re-posted your comment on Facebook, as something worth pondering.

In my humble opinion, the petitions calling for a new investigation are just another means of spreading awareness of the depths of this Crime. Would a U.S. government led investigation resolve anything? Most likely not. Perhaps what is really needed is an international tribunal on the scale of Nuremberg. At any rate, real change will not come about until the "outrage" that you look for materializes, that is, until awareness becomes prevalent enough in society to finally tip the scales. From what I hear it is still barely 50% of the U.S. population that are questioning the official story of 9/11. What is up with the other half? Too stupid to think? Too wrapped up in their daily lives, or too afraid of what they might learn? The change to a new "paradigm" is gradual I think, but it is happening.

On the question of DHS preparations for wide spread civil unrest, of basically war against the American people, I think this is definitely something to be alarmed about. I have probably read the same internet reports as you have, such as those from infowars and Jesse Ventura. I have also had opportunity to question a couple DHS goons about this. Early one morning a DHS tactical team rolled up a back woods dirt road here in Montana to invade the home of a neighbor, supposedly due to their 18 year old son downloading child porn and contacting under-aged girls online. They searched the home for 10 hours, questioned all family members and confiscated the family computer. Could it have had anything to do with the fact that the father is a member of a local militia? When I heard something was up, I went over to see, and was stopped in the driveway by these two DHS armed goons. Not allowed to go talk to the family, I instead talked with the agents. What do they have to say about this massive stock-piling of ammunition by DHS I asked. One claimed to know nothing about it. Really, I asked... so you never go online or read the news? The second guy admitted knowing about it, but feigned indignation, claiming the bullets are used for practice, and are not excessive. They just need that many to hone their skills you know. Really, I asked... with hollow points? Yes, he says, it is important to practice with the same ammo you would use in the field... (!!!) Good grief... what turnip truck did he think I fell off of? Hollow points are designed for maximum damage to humans; they are not generally used for practice due their higher cost. It is comical to suggest the difference in weight is something a shooter would notice. If that were true, then after every shot the shooter would have to re-calibrate his aim, since the gun would become that much lighter... lol. Anyway, what this encounter told me is that DHS is a den of liars, from the top right down to the hired goons, and is not to be trusted.

Posted by: amazed! Nov 15 2013, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (rockymtriser @ Nov 15 2013, 10:00 AM) *
Good question there, Mr. Newton! (and, btw, awesome drawing too!) I re-posted your comment on Facebook, as something worth pondering.

In my humble opinion, the petitions calling for a new investigation are just another means of spreading awareness of the depths of this Crime. Would a U.S. government led investigation resolve anything? Most likely not. Perhaps what is really needed is an international tribunal on the scale of Nuremberg. At any rate, real change will not come about until the "outrage" that you look for materializes, that is, until awareness becomes prevalent enough in society to finally tip the scales. From what I hear it is still barely 50% of the U.S. population that are questioning the official story of 9/11. What is up with the other half? Too stupid to think? Too wrapped up in their daily lives, or too afraid of what they might learn? The change to a new "paradigm" is gradual I think, but it is happening.

On the question of DHS preparations for wide spread civil unrest, of basically war against the American people, I think this is definitely something to be alarmed about. I have probably read the same internet reports as you have, such as those from infowars and Jesse Ventura. I have also had opportunity to question a couple DHS goons about this. Early one morning a DHS tactical team rolled up a back woods dirt road here in Montana to invade the home of a neighbor, supposedly due to their 18 year old son downloading child porn and contacting under-aged girls online. They searched the home for 10 hours, questioned all family members and confiscated the family computer. Could it have had anything to do with the fact that the father is a member of a local militia? When I heard something was up, I went over to see, and was stopped in the driveway by these two DHS armed goons. Not allowed to go talk to the family, I instead talked with the agents. What do they have to say about this massive stock-piling of ammunition by DHS I asked. One claimed to know nothing about it. Really, I asked... so you never go online or read the news? The second guy admitted knowing about it, but feigned indignation, claiming the bullets are used for practice, and are not excessive. They just need that many to hone their skills you know. Really, I asked... with hollow points? Yes, he says, it is important to practice with the same ammo you would use in the field... (!!!) Good grief... what turnip truck did he think I fell off of? Hollow points are designed for maximum damage to humans; they are not generally used for practice due their higher cost. It is comical to suggest the difference in weight is something a shooter would notice. If that were true, then after every shot the shooter would have to re-calibrate his aim, since the gun would become that much lighter... lol. Anyway, what this encounter told me is that DHS is a den of liars, from the top right down to the hired goons, and is not to be trusted.



Good post.

IMO, most folks that believe the official story do so involuntarily. Something subconscious inside their head will not let them confront the truth, so they fall into the "ignorance is bliss" mindset.

Posted by: EJT Nov 15 2013, 11:31 AM

QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 13 2013, 01:16 PM) *
Good post.

IMO, most folks that believe the official story do so involuntarily. Something subconscious inside their head will not let them confront the truth, so they fall into the "ignorance is bliss" mindset.


It's the way in which those people are raised: Question nothing, and believe everyone, especially if it happens to be said on the TEE VEE. blink.gif

Posted by: hanky Nov 15 2013, 02:05 PM

Is that it? Maybe not. Any practical suggestions on how to put us directly onto a more wholesome and honest course?
I am at a loss, other than to keep spreading awareness. Their hubris will lead to a situation where this may be a trump card. It is difficult to adjust to these massive incongruities and timescales.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 15 2013, 02:30 PM

rockymtriser "I re-posted your comment on Facebook, as something worth pondering."

Nice to meet you (and all).... Is there a link to that? I'd like to read the comments, if any.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 15 2013, 03:38 PM

Hello hanky (nice to meet you)....

Hanky "Any practical suggestions on how to put us directly onto a more wholesome and honest course?"

It seems to me that, in view of the overwhelming magnitude and urgency of the situation, and the all but certain dire consequences of continued inaction, that a more confrontational approach would bring the issue to the fore internationally (ideally resulting in boycotts, embargos and other economic sanctions). This would hurt the United States (and its people), and it must be hurt, to force it take some kind of action to finally address the reality and horror of what has occurred, and correct it.

I know that many protests, in the past, that would not otherwise have made headlines did make headlines, both here and abroad, when just one well known person or celebrity took part and intentionally got themselves arrested for civil disobedience.

Just imagine, for a moment, what the reaction would be, internationally, if all the people on that list were to assemble at "Ground Zero", or outside the White House for a protest, similar to or modelled after the "Occupy Movement" protests, along with any other like minded people who could be persuaded to participate, and get themselves arrested. Global awarenes of this genuine ongoing emergency and continuing crime would be greatly magnified, and may even spur some sort of immediate international intervention.

It would be a start.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 15 2013, 09:28 PM

Hello EJT....

EJT "There really is only one way out of this mess in which we find ourselves: A New Paradigm Of Government."

I've considered similar ideas, but I think we can agree that there's very little chance of any meaningful consensus being reached by the people on that. The Constitution is a beautiful and magnificently crafted document. If followed, it can and will serve us as well.

One change that (in my opinion) must be demanded, one which would immediately and dramatically impact The Constitution's efficacy, for the good of the people, would be to outlaw the practice of lobbying, which, as anyone can see is really nothing more than an institutionalized form of bribery that wholly subverts the will of the people. The exclusive access to legislators granted to lobbyists acting in the interest of large corporations (among others) has eroded the very foundation of this democracy.

On this, I think there's a much better chance of consenus being reached by the people. The Supreme Court's revolting decision to protect this activity as "free speech" would have to be overturned. Without that first step, nothing else the people do will make a difference.

That would be a great start on the road back to self governance by the people, which is clearly not happening currently, and has not been happeningfor a very, very long time.

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 16 2013, 09:34 AM

.... Is there a link to that? I'd like to read the comments, if any.
[/quote]

https://www.facebook.com/rockymtrider

I looked this morning and there were no comments. I assumed the crickets were telling me that people are getting tired of hearing about it. I noticed that none of my posts of late have had any comments. hmmm... Then I noticed that my privacy settings had gotten messed up, and only a couple people were being allowed to see it. doh1.gif Fixed that, but now that it is day old news it may not be seen by many. lol... always complications...

Posted by: amazed! Nov 16 2013, 03:16 PM

QUOTE (EJT @ Nov 15 2013, 11:31 AM) *
It's the way in which those people are raised: Question nothing, and believe everyone, especially if it happens to be said on the TEE VEE. blink.gif



Exactly right, the behavioral conditioning has been going on for a long time.

But we know that in a time of universal deception, speaking the truth is a radical act. My opinion is that most people are certainly interested and curious about just what the truth is. I think they're just afraid to talk about it in public? Who knows, but those who are willing to talk about it in public all understand that they've been fooled.

Posted by: amazed! Nov 16 2013, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (hanky @ Nov 15 2013, 02:05 PM) *
Is that it? Maybe not. Any practical suggestions on how to put us directly onto a more wholesome and honest course?
I am at a loss, other than to keep spreading awareness. Their hubris will lead to a situation where this may be a trump card. It is difficult to adjust to these massive incongruities and timescales.



At some point, we're dealing with a psychological phenomenon, and it must be faced. How and why do humans practice denying reality? I suppose everyman has been in denial himself, for some time. Or have the urge to practice denial, to fool oneself into believing something else that does not comport with reality.

I completely agree that spreading awareness is probably the only course there is. cheers.gif

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 16 2013, 09:03 PM

So.... for a variety of reasons (correct me if I'm wrong), the best thing to do is to keep the discussion alive so that hopefully, at some point, someday, somebody with the ability to takes action and finally does something about it. That strategy didn't work out so well for the citizens of Germany a while back, and I don't think it's going to work out so well for us now either.

I wonder. Should I write an open letter to all those gifted, illustrious people who signed the petition? To all the people on that list, asking them.... In view of the fact that no satisfactory response to your obviously well founded concerns have been forthcoming, isn't it your duty, as verifiably knowlegable persons, with unimpeachable collective experience, credibility and expertise, to take some kind of action greater than that already taken?

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 17 2013, 11:30 PM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Nov 15 2013, 09:47 AM) *
I don't think any rational person who looks at the overwhelming mountain of evidence....


But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof.

I gather that this very community of experts, can't even decide whether or not Boeing 757s & 767s could have flown at the claimed and witnessed combination of speeds and altitudes.

Then there are the continued debates on one's ability to make cellular phone calls from the alleged plane altitudes.

Did a plane hit The Pentagon?

Was there or wasn't there a "pod" attached beneath Flight 175?

Then there are the preposterous: no planes-"Vicsims" theories.

The only real consensus I see from the September 11th sceptics, is to decry 9/11: "an inside job" and to passionately claim that a controlled demolition brought down the world trade center; throwing in the terms "at freefall speed" & "in its own footprint".

I have no doubt that at least the U.S. government did plan and execute those attacks; and each day (since I started four months ago) make steady progress in my comprehension.
But let's not delude ourselves that a mountain of conjecture, error, doubt and above all suspicion, amounts to a compelling case for the prosecution.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 18 2013, 01:48 AM

Throwing in the terms "at freefall speed"? This is one of those rare instances where the "Official Conspiracy Theory" and the alternative, or so called "Truther Conspiracy Theory" actually intersect in agreement on one point, and that is WTC 7 came down at gravitational acceleration (free fall).

So, when you say that the words "at free fall speed" are just being thrown in your actually talking issue not only with David Chandler, the High School teacher that first brought attention to it, but also with the NIST itself, which conducted a formal analysis of WTC 7 video and refined David Chandlers approximation of 2.5 seconds down to 2.25 seconds.

It's a matter of official record that WTC 7 came down at gravitatonal acceleration (free fall) for 8 stories, or 105 feet.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 18 2013, 06:30 AM

poppyburner "But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof."

Exactly! I'm really upset with the NIST about that too. Looks like a clear case of....

....Guerrilla's in the NIST


Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 18 2013, 02:51 PM

"But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof..."

I would take issue with this statement, as there have certainly been proofs uncovered and solid explanations asserted over the last 12 years. But I do get your point: there do remain questions and disagreements in the community of honest researchers. So how can we step forward making demands of those esteemed ones who have spoken up about inconsistencies of the government story, insisting that they confront the government directly, camping out on the White House lawn and carrying rebellious placards to force the wicked government to do our bidding. To do what exactly? Who exactly are we to string up?

Change will follow a natural sequence. At the stage we are presently in what is totally appropriate is to keep calling for a real, independent investigation. This is what is needed to resolve the many questions about what really happened, because there is so much information that we the public just do not have access to. The rudimentary truths that validate such a call are the proofs which have been uncovered, primarily I think the solid evidence of explosives used to take down the WTC 1,2 and 7, as presented by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. This evidence puts NIST and fool debunkers like those at Popular Mechanics to shame.

And the other process currently underway is the spreading of awareness among the population. This is having an effect, as can be seen by the recent attempt by the government to drag us into another conflict with Syria being shredded. People are waking up, however slowly it may sometimes seem. When a critical mass is reached, something like the story of the 100th monkey, overwhelming change will just happen. The government may try another false flag, only to be met by a resounding "bullshit" from the people, "we are not backing you up anymore!"

For now, we are still in a real battle, an "information war" if you will. So what do you do when in the middle of a fight? You just keep fighting! Don't give up.

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 18 2013, 07:20 PM

Newton,

To be clear, I'm not disputing the claim's accuracy, but rather making an example of the ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part).

After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray.

rockymtriser,

Thanks for the encouragement (which I echo).
Sure, there are some excellent bits and pieces, but unlike the triumphing U.S. government, we've embarrassingly no complete tapestry, and are unsurprised that the public's ignoring/dismissing us?

The September 11th attacks are and will continue to be the pretext and nucleus of innumerable, self-righteous, subsequent atrocities in the 21st century. I believe that our only realistic hope in toppling this gargantuan avalanche of evil, is to finally address its crux: what actually happened on that day???

Not: what was weird, what doesn't add up, what's blatantly suspicious; instead, a lucid, comprehensive, account, simple enough for laymen to mentally apprehend and us all to succinctly propagate.


Poirot would be spinning in his grave.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 18 2013, 08:03 PM

poppyburner "....instead, a lucid, comprehensive, account, simple enough for laymen to mentally apprehend and us all to succinctly propagate."

Right.... WTC 7 would be perfect for that. It's been thouroughly researched and clearly explained (a complete theory that's consistent with physical principles) now for some time, and the principles involved are easily understandable to the layman.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 18 2013, 08:27 PM

poppyburner "To be clear, I'm not disputing the claim's accuracy...."

While the accuracy of the original claim by the High School teacher David Chandler based on the video may have been in question, the formal analysis of the video conducted by the NIST refined and verified the finding. There's no longer any worry about the "claim's accuracy" or any disagreement whatsoever that free fall occurred for 8 stories, or 105 feet.... It's an officially recorded matter of fact.

poppyburner "....but rather making an example of the ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part)."

Actually, it looks like the buzz phrase "free fall" works quite nicely.... It remains (officially) unexplained.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 19 2013, 08:03 PM

poppyburner "After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray."

There's a whole constellation of questions (of varying significance) needing answers, but it won't be productive to ask them all at once. Independent researchers seem increasingly focussed on the unique circumstances surrounding WTC 7.

The only "black hole" is the one the government is creating, as it continues to this day to conceal evidence and refuse to discuss any aspect of it and label anyone who questions it as crazy, dangerous or both.... Very disturbing.

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 19 2013, 10:14 PM

But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime? It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report.

This evokes Truther Abby Martin (now a Russia Today television presenter) deeming Building 7 to be the most compelling piece of evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwANnpfE7L4 @ 1:31 ...but didn't explain why.

In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man.

I'm not calling for answers to every question. Just a cogent, chronological description of the main actions by the guilty parties in that day, which brought about the well-known results.

Imo, the Salomon Brothers' building, is probably the last piece in a much larger and woefully incomplete puzzle.

C'mon Newton. One can't blame the perpetrators' reticence for our parochial shirking.

'george carlin on 9/11 (our owners won't investigate themselves; dumb slaves don't notice/care)' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO8vs2VNJUg

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 20 2013, 01:44 AM

poppyburner "But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime?"

Well, let me ponder that in great detail for a tenth of a second.... My thinking is that it's extremely likely that if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. Is that a stretch for you?

poppyburner "It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report."

Right, I feel you man.... shockingly predictable isn't it?

poppyburner "This evokes Truther Abby Martin (now a Russia Today television presenter) deeming Building 7 to be the most compelling piece of evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwANnpfE7L4 @ 1:31 ...but didn't explain why."


It evokes Truther Abby Martin? Oh man, that's rich! Let me get this straight.... You're relying on Abbey Martin for accurate information to solve the greatest crime in American history? Forget about it man, check http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_911_24.htm#contents out.

poppyburner "In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man."

First, free fall is a "buzz phrase", next you don't question the "claim's accuracy" and now it's "the 'free fall' charge" doesn't satisfy the common man. I am a common man, and it has satisfied me. It's not a buzz phrase, a claim or a charge.... It's just a fact man!

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 20 2013, 02:21 AM

rockymtriser "....there do remain questions and disagreements in the community of honest researchers."

Not about WTC 7. It probably represents the single most powerful piece of evidence there is, along with its "Tenant List" which may well betray the ones who pulled it off. That building had some of the tightest security in the nation, and there are only a handful of people that could have defeated it, and thereby the government.... from within.

If one follows the science, as one must, it's beyond evident now (and has been for some years) that WTC 7 was brought down with explosives. There is no other explanation that fits the physical evidence, the eyewitness accounts and the scientific observations, all of which are consistent with unimaginably simple, and irrefutable, physical principles.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 20 2013, 03:02 AM

rockymtriser "So how can we step forward making demands of those esteemed ones who have spoken up about inconsistencies of the government story, insisting that they confront the government directly...."

How can we not? They're the only ones that can do this. So, maybe not an "Occupy" type of arrangement.... Perhaps a one or two day well advertised protest outside the Justice Department with the international media in attendance, volunteering, even demanding, to meet with the Attorney General immediately to discuss testifying as expert witnesses in a criminal investigation of the WTC 7 demolition.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 20 2013, 03:21 AM

rockymtriser "Change will follow a natural sequence."

So, you believe that with patience, and by calmly continuing to spread awareness, a "natural sequence" will eventually just automatically restore Democracy to the most powerful country in the world after being hijacked (only temporarily, nothing serious) by a covert political entity willing to kill American citizens in furtherance of an unknown agenda? That's a very curious thing to say.... Was it meant to be humorous?

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 20 2013, 10:27 AM

So, you believe that with patience, and by calmly continuing to spread awareness, a "natural sequence" will eventually just automatically restore Democracy to the most powerful country in the world after being hijacked (only temporarily, nothing serious) by a covert political entity willing to kill American citizens in furtherance of an unknown agenda? That's a very curious thing to say.... Was it meant to be humorous?
[/quote]

Yes, IsaacNewton, I believe in patience and perseverance in the spreading of awareness as paramount to bringing about change. There has been plenty of screaming and frantic shouting down of naysayers, as people vent their justifiable outrage and frustration, but this approach tends to turn people away. What I have seen working is the calm deliberate presenting of the facts. I recall a comment of Geraldo Rivera, who once flipped off a group of "truthers" whose chanting interrupted his live on the street broadcast. He later admitted coming around to questioning the official story himself due to the case being presented by the architects and engineers and the victims families. Bottom line, when those telling the story come across as obnoxious, scary, dangerous, rude and mean, people do not want to listen, while a calm, honest, informed and respectful approach has a greater effect.

And yes, I do see a natural sequence to change, not even trying to be funny here. Perhaps the first phase was the rebellious clamor that turned people off... perfectly natural and understandable, but not effective. "You shouted at me, so now I am going to change my way of thinking to yours" said no one ever... The phase I see happening now is one of spreading awareness while calling for a new investigation. Why not just jump ahead and take it to court now? Certainly we want justice, and we want it right away! But, realistically, there is a sequence which works, and there are well intentioned but poorly planned efforts which fail. We need first to inform the people, to reach a tipping point of awareness, because most cases are swayed by public opinion, like it or not. And then there is "discovery". Sure, there have been plenty of independent investigations done by private citizens, but to bring down the real culprits of this Crime we do need the clout of an official investigation.

I am certainly not claiming to have all the answers, to know how to restore this democracy, and I genuinely do appreciate your thoughts and ideas and spirit. We are in this together.

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 20 2013, 10:49 AM

And yes, I absolutely agree with the importance of Building 7. It is the Achilles Heel of the official story, making it a natural starting point for investigation of the whole interwoven plot. Once you see how this building fell, while not hit by any plane, you inevitably take a closer look at the collapse of the twin towers, and from there you can't help but start looking at all of the rest of the inconsistencies to this whole story. So yeah, poppy, if you want real evidence of the crime, it is here, and it is overwhelming. Something went seriously wrong with the plan, I suspect, concerning Building 7, so now all that is left is to try to belittle it. That is not working out so well for them. Building 7 was the focus of the latest worldwide PR effort by the ReThink911 campaign. http://rethink911.org/

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 20 2013, 10:55 AM

One more note: just to say, we are not at a standstill in this movement. Things are happening, so don't be discouraged. If you do get anything going with some sort of outreach to the government by the esteemed parties mentioned, I would back that also. One development I have been following, as I have a close friend involved, is the effort in New Jersey to have an official investigation into 9/11 done in that state. check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd5xpl3zxq4

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 20 2013, 11:05 AM

Poppyburner, I get the impression that you are looking for a wider view of the whole story of 9/11. Might I suggest watching the new Massimo Mazzucco film "September 11- The New Pearl Harbor"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GCeuSr3Mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DegLpgJmFL8

It does a fantastic job covering the whole story (as well as can be done in a mere 6 hours...) while facing off with the debunkers directly.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 20 2013, 11:50 AM

Thanks for that rockymtriser, you strike me as a reasonable person (didn't mean to come on too strong) and, right.... all in it together.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 20 2013, 08:10 PM

rockymtriser "Yes, IsaacNewton, I believe in patience and perseverance in the spreading of awareness as paramount to bringing about change."

I agree, that's a vital element man, but there are big problems and major implications that go along with the knowledge that WTC 7 was explosively demolished. That approach, however well intentioned, will with all likelihood fail in this situation, since the very law at hand to remedy the situation itself has been taken over, as evidenced by the cover-up, destruction of evidence, continued hiding of evidence and flat refusal to investigate or even discuss the incident, and labeling anyone who questions the official account as crazy, dangerous or both.

The patient, reasoned approach still appears to work at the level of, say, some regional legal issue, something like a labor dispute at WALMART perhaps, or a mayoral recall election. At the very highest levels though, if WTC 7 was demolished.... the stakes get much, much higher.

It would logically follow (open to correction) that if WTC 7 could be explosively demolished without any criminal investigation, charges or anyone being arrested, and looking at the official response (or lack of it) that though the appearance of democracy is being maintained for the time being, in reality....

1. On September 11, 2001, a small group of highly placed rogue elements within the United States government, a covert political entity, took over the United States government. As no one has ever been charged with any crime, it must be assumed that the criminal conspiracy continues to date, over twelve years later.... On that day, the country fomerly known as the U.S.A. (United States of America) effectively ended, and the U.S.C.P.E. (United States of a Covert Political Entity) effectively began.

2. The same criminal conspiracy carried out by this small group of people, a covert political entity, which inadvertantly made itself visible that day but has likely existed much longer (Northwoods, Gladio, etc.) continues to exercise complete control over what was once known as the United States government, operating with impunity right up to the present.... There can be no doubt.

3. None of you are any longer living in a Democracy and verifiably haven't been since September 11, 2001 (probably much earlier). On that day the Constitution of the United States was seen to be indefinitely suspended. The Patriot Act, NSA spying, wars and drone programs, torture (enhanced interrogation) and the ever increasing nationwide DHS lockdown, including the stockpiling of "maximum impact" hollow point ammunition, plastic coffins or "vaults", and the construction of numerous "facilities" that look like prisons, clearly shows the control being exercised by this covert political entity over the country.... and it's being steadily reinforced.

4. For as long as this small group of people, this covert political entity, remains in control of this country, the President of the United States and everyone beneath him, the entire chain of command, both military and legislative, has effectively been relieved of the ability to make independent decisions for the country or carry out their sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution.

5. All the votes you've cast since that day, up to the present, and all the votes you cast in the decades ahead that it will take for this situation to be satisfactorily resolved (no guarantee), will be utterly meaningless since, whoever wins any given election (no matter which party), and whoever is appointed to any government post will, directly or indirectly, knowingly or unknowingly, be answering up a new and alien imposed Chain of Command that's under the complete control of the covert political entity that brought about 9/11.... all as part of their official daily affairs.

6. Over the last twelve years, up to the present, and for the decades ahead that it may take to arrive at some satisfactory resolution (no guarantee), you will have been knowingly handing over your tax dollars to a covert political entity you knew not to be the United States government.
During the entire time, from September 11, 2001 until the day it's resolved your tax dollars have been and will continue to be controlled by a covert political entity other than the United States government. The implications, even on a personal level, are staggering.

Finally.... What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it?

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 20 2013, 10:09 PM

'... My thinking is that it's extremely likely that if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. Is that a stretch for you?' ~ Newton.

Frankly yes. Presuming the demolition went against the owners' wishes; what charge (sorry if that term offends) are you alluding to? Criminal damage?
For what it's worth, personally, I suspect that its Office of Emergency Management was at least used to remotely iniate the demolition of the twin towers, then was later gutted and obliterated itself (along with the entire structure), to destroy incriminating evidence.

rockymtriser,

Thanks for the links. 6 hours! Gosh. Ok, I'll give it a go.
But if it contains the answers I'm looking for, then why aren't they widely accepted and repeated?


Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 21 2013, 12:13 AM

poppyburner "Frankly yes. Presuming the demolition went against the owners' wishes; what charge (sorry if that term offends) are you alluding to? Criminal damage?

Presuming the demolition went against the owners wishes? What charges? I'm incredulous.... You're saying you believe it may be a stretch to say a crime must have been committed by explosively demolishing a skyscraper without warning that housed offices for the SEC, IRS, CIA, OEM and Secret Service? You at least seem to be indicating here that possibly, depending on the mental disposition of the owner at the time, that perhaps maybe it wasn't a crime after all.... Is that what you're saying?

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 21 2013, 10:53 PM

No. It's merely a stretch to comprehend specifically which crime/s you're implying. Public endangerment?

'Because of the time span of the events, everyone was able to evacuate the building and there were no casualties within Building 7.' ~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056088/Footage-kills-conspiracy-theories-Rare-footage-shows-WTC-7-consumed-fire.html

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 22 2013, 02:33 AM

C'mon Poppyburner, get real... is it really hard for you to comprehend that destruction of a federal building could be a crime? Were it an isolated incident, it would certainly be a huge story all by itself: a 47 story sky scraper housing offices of the IRS, CIA, Secret Service, the SEC (which included the bulk of evidence in the Enron scandal), the NY Mayors office of Emergency Management, three insurance companies and five financial institutions, taken down in seconds, clearly via pre-set explosives. Happening as it did in the shadow of a much larger conspiracy is what has hidden it from more widespread awareness (along with what is surely a cover-up / hush order involving the media...)

You seem to be implying that, hey, no big deal, everyone got out okay, so don't worry about it! Yeah, incredulous is the word. (meaning you are losing credibility in this discussion...)

Also, in fact, not everyone did get out unharmed. Barry Jennings and Michael Hess were trapped inside by explosions occurring below level 8 BEFORE either of the twin towers had collapsed! Barry Jennings later was murdered after speaking out to Avery, producer of the film Loose Change, and just before the NIST report came out claiming there were no witnesses to explosions in wtc7...

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 22 2013, 02:57 AM

poppyburner "No. It's merely a stretch to comprehend specifically which crime/s you're implying."

I don't recall implying anything. I do recall you asking me the question.... "But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime?"
That's really a rather strange question to ask when one thinks about it.... How could it not be linked to a crime? I said if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. That's not implying anything, it's stating a fact. I can't fathom how anyone could possibly see it any other way.

Let me tell you man, when it comes right down to it.... If it's a stretch for you to comprehend that it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition, or willful destruction, of a skyscraper that housed various federal agencies such as the Internal Revenue Service, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the United States Secret Service, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Department of Defense, the New York City Office of Emergency Management along with a couple of banks and insurers, well, you're going to need way, way more help than I can give you man! I'm just an old Artist/Tinkerer guy. I don't know how many thousands of charges that would amount to. Instead.... Why don't you try to tell me how you think it might not have been a crime?

poppyburner "Public endangerment?"

Yeah, Public Endangerment.... Sound the alarm! You're a riot! First, an investigation. Charges arise from an investigation, not the other way around.

poppyburner 'Because the time span of the events, everyone was able to evacuate the building and there were no casualties within Building 7.' ~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...sumed-fire.html

Relevance? Here again, my impression is that you seem to be trying somehow to subtly downplay the significance of the event. Sort of like saying.... "Well, no one died in that building. So what's the big deal?"

In the same way, you seemed to try to downplay the fact of free fall of WTC 7 too, first calling it a "buzz phrase", next calling it a "claim" and then calling it a "charge". It just strikes me as odd, in fact, just odd enough for me to ask you again....

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 22 2013, 02:58 AM

IsaacNewton, I absolutely agree with your assessment of the situation we are in. and What To Do about it is a very good question. Obviously the hidden Powers behind the attacks of 9/11 are very powerful and connected. Many who have tried to stand up to them have been destroyed. The government is in their grasp, as you say, and so cannot ever succeed to take them down. So what do we do?

The situation is serious enough to merit civil war, but what chance could civilians have against powers that control a military whose spending exceeds that of the next 30 countries combined! I actually think they would like to see such an attempt, to give excuse to crack down even harder on civil liberties.

So, to my naive mind, there is just one viable option, and that is to continue to spread awareness, because, as powerful as this wicked cabal may be, the People truly are more powerful, did they but know. When awareness of this Crime becomes dominant and widespread in all walks of society, only then will power be taken from the hidden ones.

My realistic mind though warns that, though I may hope for the best, and work towards it, still it is wise to prepare for the worst. Chances are, things will get a lot worse before they get better...

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 22 2013, 07:25 AM

Yeah rockymtriser.... it's a very tough spot to be in. Especially when the reality of it starts to sink in. It's funny you know, when I'm out and about, how no one seems to be concerned in the least. Everyone's just going about their business as if nothing happened.... talk about a seamless transition!

I don't really know what can be done either. My understanding is that this "arrangement" goes back at least fifty years with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio. It's now common knowledge that in 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all of them, actually approved plans for carrying out secret "operations" that included the killing of innocent American citizens as a pretext for invasion and subsequent long term occupation of Cuba.

Believe it or not, they even approved blowing up the rocket that launched John Glenn into space, and afterward the plan was to fabricate phony electronic jamming equipment made to look like it was from Cuba, again, as a pretext for invasion and subsequent long term occupation.

This was all presented to President Kennedy at the time. He decided not to go that route though and turned down the plans. Looks like it didn't work out so well for him.... Looks like they made an "operation" out of him!

Posted by: onesliceshort Nov 22 2013, 10:16 PM

QUOTE
After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray.


Hi poppyburner

I'd like to know why video footage of alleged passengers at the check ins or airports has never been shown.

You know, even for a grimey journalistic hype story. Or propaganda.

"Here are the last moments of passenger(s) _insert name(s)_"

Even (US) high profile alleged passenger Barbara Olson? Where was the clambering for even a still image by Fox News?

On a human level, if it were my family member, I'd ask to see the last footage of that person. Have family members asked to see this footage? If not, why not? The most natural and human thing to do is to try and see a deceased family member's last memories, no matter how slight. To hear or read their last words. Something.

It's always something that has struck me as cold and unbelievable.

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 22 2013, 10:57 PM

Rockymtriser & Newton,

I just want for someone to explicitly tell me, what the destruction of Building 7 signifies?

I'm not suggesting that is at all insignificant, but just so that we're clear.

Btw rockymtriser, does trapped qualify as harmed?

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Nov 23 2013, 02:16 AM) *
Hi poppyburner

I'd like to know why video footage of alleged passengers at the check ins or airports has never been shown.


You may be right, but do none of them feature in the Dulles video?:

'9/11 Hijackers at The Airport Getting on to the Plane - MUST SEE!'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhzdAx7qmz0

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 23 2013, 02:21 AM

poppyburner, I don't know if you are playing games here, or if you are really this dense. Perhaps burning a few too many poppies?

In a word, the collapse of building 7 is clear evidence of controlled demolition. Can you grasp what that means?

http://www.ae911truth.org/news/41-articles/344-building-7-implosion-the-smoking-gun-of-911.html

And are you still suggesting that unless someone is seriously harmed, then blowing up a federal building is no crime? What is the sense in arguing over how harmful it may be to get trapped by explosions in a burning building while breathing toxic fumes and fearing for your life, or how harmful it may be to later be murdered for speaking out when you were warned to shut up...

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 23 2013, 02:51 AM

QUOTE
.... What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it? ~IsaacNewton


good question. http://daily.represent.us/matt-damon-blows-your-mind/

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 03:02 AM

Hey rockymtriser.... How you doing man?

poppyburner "I just want for someone to explicitly tell me, what the destruction of Building 7 signifies?"

Again, your need for an explicit explanation and seeming inability to be able to grasp the obvious overwhelmingly significance of the intentional destruction of a skyscraper housing a variety of sensitive federal agencies..... strains credulity.

poppyburner "Btw rockymtriser, does trapped qualify as harmed?"

Can you explain what the relevance is of pursuing that line of questioning? How, in your opinion, would the answer to that question impact the broader implications of a the now mortally wounded Democracy of the most powerful nation on Earth?


Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 03:33 AM

What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it?

rockymtriser "good question"

And there's a tough answer my brother, I found it early on and have lived my whole life by it.... I'm 55 now and my hands are absolutely clean.

Posted by: onesliceshort Nov 23 2013, 09:21 PM

QUOTE
You may be right, but do none of them feature in the Dulles video?:

'9/11 Hijackers at The Airport Getting on to the Plane - MUST SEE!'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhzdAx7qmz0


Hi Poppyburner

Do you know something we or the alleged passenger family members don't know?

If there was just one still image of these people, I think we'd have heard about it by now.

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 23 2013, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (rockymtriser @ Nov 23 2013, 06:21 AM) *
In a word, the collapse of building 7 is clear evidence of controlled demolition. Can you grasp what that means?


No. Not even after exploring that similarly enigmatic link:

'If WTC 7 was intentionally brought down, then clearly it becomes a ‘smoking gun” that must be investigated.'

What's the motive for its controlled demolition and (timing and geography aside) how does it implicate the U.S. government in that day's terror attacks, given they've made negligible political capital from its destruction?

Perhaps it was opportunism. Ridding themselves of a problematic building; or something more diabolical.
I'm just asking for you to unequivocally state what it is that you are so far only hinting at.

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 23 2013, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Nov 24 2013, 01:21 AM) *
...
Do you know something we or the alleged passenger family members don't know?

If there was just one still image of these people, I think we'd have heard about it by now.


I don't know whether or not the media have tried to identify those featured in the video.
It just occurs to me that the people with luggage who can be seen nearby the alleged hijackers at the airport security checkpoint; are plausibly would-be passengers for the same flight.

On a related note, do we know who the young, baggage-less, male, Flight 11 victim '...who sat next to [Karen Booth]... at Boston's Logan Airport and who had looked directly into ...[her]... eyes...' was?

http://old.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/1820

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 10:57 PM

So.... Is this where you guys team up to hijack the thread? I'd just like to know what the plan is, that's all.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 11:07 PM

If that's the plan, it's alright, it's not that important to me. All you have to do is say.... "We're with the http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks" and I'll understand completely.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 11:16 PM

It would save everyone a little time.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 11:20 PM

I do have some old photos of my Aunt Hazel. I could post them if you guys think they may be of some evidentiary value. I know she flew in a plane at least once.... Let me know.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 23 2013, 11:38 PM

Thought maybe I better get right back to you, so here she is. I know she was in the air around the time of the Kennedy administration, I wonder.... Is there a connection? The fellow behind her on the right looks very suspicious to me, almost like he's pretending to be asleep. Maybe there's a facial recognition program we could use to rule him out.... I think he did it though, no matter what.


Posted by: onesliceshort Nov 24 2013, 09:55 AM

Isaac

Sorry for going OT on your thread. I can't help myself whenever I see somebody play word games.

thumbsup.gif

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 24 2013, 02:10 PM

"Isaac

Sorry for going OT on your thread. I can't help myself whenever I see somebody play word games."


Hey onesliceshort (nice to meet you).... No worries, I was just having a bit of fun there!

But I have to say I do really see this as an emergency, and WTC 7 stands the best, perhaps the only, chance of success when it comes to getting some kind investigation off the ground. I guess that's what I was trying to hammer away at.

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 24 2013, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Nov 24 2013, 03:07 AM) *
If that's the plan, it's alright, it's not that important to me. All you have to do is say.... "We're with the http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks" and I'll understand completely.


Newton, arguing with fellow sceptics, doesn't mean that one's a disinformer.
I'm never going to disingenuously nod my head and say: "good point/it's so true", for the sake of camaraderie.
If you doubt my sincerity, then have a look at my YouTube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/beingsshepherd/videos

Which promote three position that (in my experience) no imposer ever does: 1) anti-Obama, 2) anti-Western armed forces, 3) pro-Syrian government.

Coincidentally, I have an account with The Guardian (albeit as good as banned: pre-moderation); check out my consistently far-Left comments: https://id.theguardian.com/profile/poppyburner

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 25 2013, 04:55 AM

So just to sum up your remarks up to this point poppyburner, and why I'm suspicious....

"But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof."

That's false.... Un-reacted nano-thermitic material was found in the dust surrounding the building. Iron spherules consistent with the expected product of reacted thermitic material was found in the dust surronding the building. Structural elements of the building were exposed to a high temperature eutectic resulting in one inch thick steel being reduced to paper thickness with silver dollar size holes in it, consistent with exposure to a thermitic reaction. Higher tempertures than can be accounted for by the burning of normal office building contents for several months following the collapse. That, combined with the now officially verified free fall period of 2.25 seconds (8 stories, or 105 feet). All that points to explosive demolition and under any other circumstances it would constitute probable cause for the immediate launch of a full scale criminal investigation.


"The only real consensus I see from the September 11th sceptics, is to decry 9/11: 'an inside job' and to passionately claim that a controlled demolition brought down the world trade center; throwing in the terms 'at freefall speed' & 'in its own footprint'."

Referring to the term "at free fall speed" as somehow being trivial when it actually provides a means for narrowing down the possible causes of its destruction to only one theory which can adequately explain it that's consistent with physical principles, namely.... controlled demolition.


"....I'm not disputing the claim's accuracy, but rather making an example of the ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part)."


Then, it's just a "....ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part).", when the fact is that free fall, along with the other evidence already mentioned is at the very heart of the thorough, plausible explanation that's already been provided by numerous independent researchers whose credibility is above reproach.... and the science behind their conclusions astoundingly simple.


"After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray."


Now, it's the characterization of the whereabouts of the pasengers as "a fundamental question", and based on "this issue alone" the 9/11 Truth Movement "seems to be something of a black hole" and is in "shameful disarray" because they haven't found the answer.


"But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime? It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report."


The implication here seems to be that if I (an old artist/tinkerer guy) can't conclusively link the destruction of the building to some specific crime, and since it wasn't even mentioned in the 9/11 commission report it probably means there's nothing to it is, for lack of a better word just plain weird man!


"In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man."


Then it's "the 'free fall' charge" that doesn't satisfy the common man thing. By the way.... What exactly is your experience?


"Imo, the Salomon Brothers' building, is probably the last piece in a much larger and woefully incomplete puzzle."


The Salomon Brothers building (WTC 7), the piece of the puzzle so many indepedent researchers now refer to as the best hope for getting an investigation of the ground due to the unique circumstances surrounding its destruction, is characterized by you as being the least important piece of the puzzle.... it's just extremely odd.


"I just want for someone to explicitly tell me, what the destruction of Building 7 signifies?"


The significance of building 7 is a mystery to you and you just want someone to explicitly tell you what it means. It's just unbelievable man, there's a distinctly unreal quality to it.


"Btw rockymtriser, does trapped qualify as harmed?"


Another unreal remark, and you never did say what bearing if any you thought that would have on anything or why.... Is it the "nobody was killed so it might not have been a crime thing again?


"What's the motive for its controlled demolition and (timing and geography aside) how does it implicate the U.S. government in that day's terror attacks, given they've made negligible political capital from its destruction?"


Again, this seeming inability to comprehend the significance of the event or make a connection between all the federal agencies that were tenants in this high security environment and the government, followed by the assertion that "they've made negligible political capital" from its destruction.... What's that assertion based on?


"Newton, arguing with fellow sceptics, doesn't mean that one's a disinformer."


Yeah? Well it doesn't mean that one's not a disinformer either pal.... Right from the start you've made nothing but odd, strange remarks (and I'm not the only one that's noticed). You're not arguing, but seem instead to be intentionally making a series of obvious mis-statements for some reason. In review it has a strangely formulaic quality.


If I had to choose one way or the other, I would have to go with your being part of the Air Force program. Sorry.... I smell a rat.

Posted by: rockymtriser Nov 25 2013, 06:53 AM

yep, something stinks about poppy alright...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152044212339744&set=pb.518789743.-2207520000.1385376760.&type=3&theater

Posted by: poppyburner Nov 25 2013, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Nov 25 2013, 08:55 AM) *
Yeah? Well it doesn't mean that one's not a disinformer either pal.... In review it has a strangely formulaic quality.
...
I would have to go with your being part of the Air Force program. Sorry.... I smell a rat.


Reads like a caricature of a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

'witch-hunt...
n.
An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views.' ~ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witch-hunt

Posted by: IsaacNewton Nov 25 2013, 09:54 PM

poppyburner "Reads like a caricature of a paranoid conspiracy theorist."

That's exactly what I thought you would say Airman Basic.... Robertson, isn't it?

Posted by: IsaacNewton Apr 14 2015, 07:11 PM

I'm looking at this still and it increasingly appears to be a no win scenario for the American people really no matter what.

If a genuine investigation is launched and it gets to close to the truth, the perpetrarors of 9/11 (a covert political entity) will simply accelerate their schedule by committing another or even multiple similar staged attacks in order to justify the immediate declaration of Martial Law or the imposition of other severe socio-economic restrictions on the general populace to remain in control, prevent any further investigative progress and avoid answering for thier crimes.

If no genuine investigation is launched, then the perpetrators of 9/11 (a covert political entity) will simply remain in control and continue avoiding answering for their crimes (as they have successfully done now since at least 2001), proceeding with their schedule of committing another or even multiple staged attacks to justify the declaration of Martial Law or the imposition of other severe socio-economic restrictions on the general populace, preventing any further investigative progress and continuing to avoid answering form their crimes.

There doesn't appear to be any way out either, because the covert political entity that is/controls the Pentagon and NATO is too well ensconced now around the globe for any local uprising (a single country) to seriously affect the their global objective (whatever that turns out to be).

The people cannot win, it's too late. They're completely out gunned, the coffins are ready and the camps stand ready. As a group (globally) the people have neither the collective will nor the physical ability to rise up as one and act, for example, in the form of any kind of meaningful wide spread work stoppage or tax recolt would have any real impact on the well armed and well supplied organization (the covert political entity) now known to be in control, and even if they did have the will and the ability, it would only force the situation to a head on a grander scale, resulting in a their committing another or even multiple staged attacks (blamed on those rising up of course) leading to the immediate declaration of Martial Law or the imposition of other severe socio-economic restrictions being placed on the general populace of whatever country or contries were involved..

The battle is lost.

Posted by: EJT Apr 14 2015, 08:18 PM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Apr 12 2015, 09:11 PM) *
I'm looking at this still and it increasingly appears to be a no win scenario for the American people really no matter what.
[...]
The battle is lost.


Well, if you're gonna be a defeatist, then why even make any kind of remark?

I for one don't believe a word of the effete elite. They're full of bluster, and bovine excrement, i.e., they're so full of themselves, that if they were to have a really good bowel movement, they'd have to pin a note on their clothes telling whomever found them to where they should be sent, or to be disposed of.

Terrorists they. That's what terrorists do: They bluster, bloviate, and make endless threats when they can't get their way. Their entire philosophy is just this: Make endless threats, and perpetrate skulduggery hoping to scare the masses into submission.

Well, guess what? There are far more of US than there are of THEM, and =>THEY<= know it! Once the largest mass of the People awaken to the facts, the game is over, and the effete elite will thence scurry into their mass graves which they've dug for themselves in underground bunkers, hoping that none of the rest of us know where their hidey-holes are located. NEWS FLASH FOR THEM: Those locations are well known!!!

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 14 2015, 09:44 PM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Apr 14 2015, 11:11 AM) *
The battle is lost.


The battle is already won - nothing is lost.

All you need to do to verify this very fact, is to read the OP in the thread
"Life after Death" at the bottom of this forum!

Here's a few extracts from the OP:

".......
The victory or defeat of the warring parties can in no way be attributed to God.
Never does He take part in the hostilities, neither on the side of the aggressor
nor on the side of the defender. Only prayers for help to restore peace will be
heard by God, but His many and persistent attempts to speak to the leaders as
their "conscience" are in most cases rejected.

.......

Any person - civilian or military - who praises, defends and glorifies war in
writing or in speech, instead of evoking aversion to this deed of Darkness and
enlightening his fellow human beings on the degradation and brutishness of war,
is himself placing a heavy burden of responsibility on his shoulders and
must
, having ended his earthly life, render a detailed account to God of the
motivations for his actions.

.......

Even though human beings wage war among themselves, and even though God
does not hear their prayers for victory, He never loses sight of them, but seeks
either directly or through the disincarnated Youngest to awaken remorse among
the leaders, just as He tries in many ways to instil in them an awareness of the
injustice and the abuse of power of which they are guilty, so as to bring about a
pact of peace before one of the parties succumbs to the superior force; but in the
vast majority of cases also these attempts are rejected by human beings.
......."

(Emphasis mine).

Even a little bit of 'Spirituality' will go a long long long way. Exploit and Utilize!

Cheers

PS!
Why such a long thread? You could also read post 11 on page 1 to find out what
all the 'fuzz' is about.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Apr 16 2015, 04:24 PM

QUOTE
Well, if you're gonna be a defeatist, then why even make any kind of remark?


I'm no defeatist, I'm a realist, there's a difference.... just like there's a difference between being an optimist and being a pollyanna.

QUOTE
I for one don't believe a word of the effete elite. They're full of bluster, and bovine excrement, i.e., they're so full of themselves, that if they were to have a really good bowel movement, they'd have to pin a note on their clothes telling whomever found them to where they should be sent, or to be disposed of.


What's your definition of bluster? 9/11 was no bluster, nor were the outright premeditated murders of over a million innocent people in Iraq and Afganistan alone committed in it's name. And the revelation of things like Operation Gladio and Operation Northwoods (among many others) shows it's been going on for at least half a century!

QUOTE
Terrorists they. That's what terrorists do: They bluster, bloviate, and make endless threats when they can't get their way. Their entire philosophy is just this: Make endless threats, and perpetrate skulduggery hoping to scare the masses into submission.


What's your definition of threat? 9/11 was no idle threat, and I say anyone who thinks so is either uninformed, trying to disinform or still recovering from a botched hemispherectomy.... Which are you?

QUOTE
Well, guess what? There are far more of US than there are of THEM, and =>THEY<= know it!


Right, no problem apparently. The Department of Homeland Security recently ordered (with your tax dollars) over 1.5 billion hollow point bullets, that should do it. The kicker is theye've even got the people paying for the very bulletss that will ultimately be used to kill them when it all falls apart.... Hah!

QUOTE
Once the largest mass of the People awaken to the facts, the game is over, and the effete elite will thence scurry into their mass graves which they've dug for themselves in underground bunkers, hoping that none of the rest of us know where their hidey-holes are located. NEWS FLASH FOR THEM: Those locations are well known!!!


And I suppose you're planning on just waltzing in there and dispatching the evil doers in the midst of their armored heavily defended underground (or even above ground) bunkers? You're lost.... anyone who even tries it will die in a hail of hollow point bullets, bombs, mines, nerve gas and whatever else they have a five or ten year stockpile of down there by now (undoubtedly at multiple locations with a dedicated communications network).

In the ensuing chaos (regional or global) following a complete socio-economic collapse (no electricity, running water, medicine, gas or food), even the remote possibility of any such occurrence is laughable. Chaos will reign supreme for a time as those left on the "outside" kill each other off for whatever rapidly dwindling resources remain (food, water, medicine, gas, guns, bullets, etc.) . All those in the bunkers need do is simply wait it out and when they finally do emerge, they will emerge healthy, well fed, highly trained and armed to the teeth.... ready to take out those who resist, and take control of those who do not.

And the "People"? Well, at this point in time, they look to me very much like a bunch of naked frightened trembling little children all huddled together in front of a bunch of battle ready Sherman Tanks (that they paid for) that are all now loaded and aimed directly at them awaiting orders from the illegal covert political entity that provably controls them, the majority half heartedly reassuring themselves and each other that "Everything will be alright, they're here to protect us.".... with a few of them waving around some sort of petition or something.

The covert political entity formerly known as the United States Government will be no more persuaded by the people to investigate itself over the events of 9/11 than Hitler would have been persuaded by the people to have investigated himself over the fire at the Reichstag. The people lost control then and they've lost control now, in fact even the most cursory review of recent history (the last five centuries or so) raises serious doubts about whether the "People" have ever really been in control of anything.... I think they've not.

The people currently have no physical ability to act either individually or in concert as a group either regionally or globally to physically effect the removal of the illegal covert political entity now known to be in control the United States of America (and by extension all NATO countries being run under it's auspices), and neither do they currently have any legislative or legal remedy at hand to remove the illegal covert political entity now known to be in control the United States of America (and by extension all NATO countries being run under it's auspices) because this illegal covert political entity is (and likely has been for quite some time) in complete control of all branches of the Federal Government....

....the Executive branch, as evidenced by the President continuing to publically recite the (long ago scientifically proven false) official narrative with regard to 9/11 and also by proceeding with various ongoing military operations around the world based on it. That being the case, he is knowingly cooperating and acting in concert with what he must know to be an illegal covert political entity controlling the United States of America (and by extension all NATO countries being run under it's auspices) not legally or legislatively authorized by the Constitution of the United States in violation of his sworn Oath.

....the Legislative branch, as evidenced by the entire legislative body (Congress, the Senate and the House of Representatives) either continuing to publically recite the official narrative with regard to 9/11 and voting in session based on it, or by simply refusing to comment on it or address it at all. They are knowingly cooperating and acting in concert with what they must know to be an illegal covert political entity controlling the United States of America (and by extension all NATO countries being run under it's auspices) not legally or legislatively authorized by the Constitution of the United States in violation of their sworn Oaths.


....the Judicial branch, as evidenced by the flat refusal of the Attorney General or the Supreme Court to act in investigating or prosecuting any agent or official of either of literally the only two possible suspects that could have carried out a domestic covert operation of this magnitude.... the Department of Defense and the Central Intelligence Agency are literally the only ones with the necessary resources who had carte blanche access to World Trade Center building 7 (the case could easily be prosecuted by a nickel and dime divorce attorney working out of a garage). They must also be knowingly cooperating and acting in concert with what they must know to be a covert political entity controlling the United States of America (and by extension all NATO countries being run under it's auspices) not legally or legislatively authorized by the Constitution of the United States in violation of their sworn Oaths.


....the Military, as evidenced by it's continued public recitation of the official narrative, and also by well documented past activities that establish a clear pattern of global political manipulation accomplished by means of orchestrated false flag terrorist attacks, bombings and assasinations over at least the last half century, including the likes of Operation Gladio, Operation Northwoods (actually planned to take place on American soil) along with a host of others too numerous to mention.


The covert political entity now provably controlling the United States of America (and by extension all NATO countries being run under it's auspices) is well ensconced with numerous heavily armored and heavily defended currently operational bunkers, hundreds of currently manned operational detention facilities (including the needed accompanying transportation infrasructure), millions of coffins and billions of bullets.


A battle lost even before it's begun.... even this old eighth grade dropout can see it.

Posted by: amazed! Apr 17 2015, 08:47 AM

Isaac

Cynical perhaps, pessimistic perhaps, but that does not make you wrong. The bad guys have won, they control the government, and with the possible exception of some sort of major implosion, I don't see that changing.

Unless Putin reveals evidence regarding nuclear events at WTC, the history books have been written.

Posted by: IsaacNewton Apr 17 2015, 05:11 PM

Sorry Tamborine man, that just looks like a bunch of unintelligible drivel to me that has no impact whatsoever on anything, but if whatever all that is you're going on about there works for you, great.... may Peace and Light be unto thee and all that.

QUOTE
"PS!
Why such a long thread?


Who cares? excontrollers thread "What If" has more responses than mine.... Why don't you go bother him with it?

Posted by: IsaacNewton Apr 17 2015, 06:08 PM

Hey amazed!....

QUOTE
Cynical perhaps, pessimistic perhaps, but that does not make you wrong. The bad guys have won, they control the government, and with the possible exception of some sort of major implosion, I don't see that changing.


Agreed, but mine isn't an inherent cynicism or pessimism so not a defeatist by definition, it's borne of the knowledge and realization of certain simple facts, hence my assessment is that of a realist.... or one who arrives at a realistic determination or conclusion based on sound analysis of solid empirically verifiable data leading to, in this case.... a very dark place.


QUOTE
Unless Putin reveals evidence regarding nuclear events at WTC, the history books have been written.


I know that some energetic material was intentionally employed to destroy WTC7. I carried out an empirically verifiable scientific method driven graphical target system analysis (really just an exhaustively stated eighth grade homework assignment) that naturally arrives at an inescapable conclusion by simple process of elimination, it's ironclad, and I'd literally bet my life on the veracity of it....

http://aemilius.sosblog.com/index.htm

So one needn't specifically know what particular kind (TNT, nukes, RDX, thermate, thermite and etc.) of energetic material was employed, for the purpose of analysis, it's enough to know that it had to be in order to explain the buildings behaviour, so nothing Mr. Putin or anyone else could possibly come up at this point would impact my aspect of the analysis or the conclusion it naturally arrives at. In other words.... Whatever additional information comes to light, it will not change the empirically established fact (as revealed by analysis) that WTC7 was brought down by means of some energetic material having been physically transported inside the building prior to the event and nor could any other additional information that comes to light change the fact that the Central Intelligence Agency and the Department of Defense (really the same thing) are literally the only ones (as revealed by the list of tenants) that had carte blanche access to WTC7, a highly secured government facility.

Game over.

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 18 2015, 04:00 AM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Apr 17 2015, 09:11 AM) *
Sorry Tamborine man, that just looks like a bunch of unintelligible drivel to me that has no impact whatsoever on anything, but if whatever all that is you're going on about there works for you, great.... may Peace and Light be unto thee and all that.

Who cares? excontrollers thread "What If" has more responses than mine.... Why don't you go bother him with it?


Hi Isaac Newton,
so sorry to have overestimated your intelligence to such an extent. Promise it won't happen again!
(Your 'name' must have led me astray)!

If you had bothered to look at the OP in the 'Life after Death thread', you would have found that the
thread started 5 years ago and is still very much alive and kicking, consisting of 48 pages now with
a visitors count of over 107.000 and rising daily. And that's in spite of the fact i haven't contributed
anything there since Nov. 2014!

At the same time you would maybe perhaps also have understood that my question: "Why such a
long thread?" was an obvious reference to my own, and therefore had nothing whatsoever to do with
you or 'excontroller', but should simply be seen as a little incentive for you to take a look at post #11,
but .....alas!

I think that your 'unintelligible drivel' remark easily turns against yourself, especially with your above
post, but also previously when you try to teach members here "how to suck eggs" with regard to 9/11.
On that score you'll probably be more than 8 years behind the mark - if not much more!

Cheers

Posted by: amazed! Apr 18 2015, 09:11 AM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Apr 17 2015, 06:08 PM) *
Hey amazed!....



Agreed, but mine isn't an inherent cynicism or pessimism so not a defeatist by definition, it's borne of the knowledge and realization of certain simple facts, hence my assessment is that of a realist.... or one who arrives at a realistic determination or conclusion based on sound analysis of solid empirically verifiable data leading to, in this case.... a very dark place.




I know that some energetic material was intentionally employed to destroy WTC7. I carried out an empirically verifiable scientific method driven graphical target system analysis (really just an exhaustively stated eighth grade homework assignment) that naturally arrives at an inescapable conclusion by simple process of elimination, it's ironclad, and I'd literally bet my life on the veracity of it....

http://aemilius.sosblog.com/index.htm

So one needn't specifically know what particular kind (TNT, nukes, RDX, thermate, thermite and etc.) of energetic material was employed, for the purpose of analysis, it's enough to know that it had to be in order to explain the buildings behaviour, so nothing Mr. Putin or anyone else could possibly come up at this point would impact my aspect of the analysis or the conclusion it naturally arrives at. In other words.... Whatever additional information comes to light, it will not change the empirically established fact (as revealed by analysis) that WTC7 was brought down by means of some energetic material having been physically transported inside the building prior to the event and nor could any other additional information that comes to light change the fact that the Central Intelligence Agency and the Department of Defense (really the same thing) are literally the only ones (as revealed by the list of tenants) that had carte blanche access to WTC7, a highly secured government facility.

Game over.


Right, but IF, and that's a very big IF, Putin does have solid and irrefutable evidence regarding the use of nukes at WTC, and IF he follows through on his several month old threat to release it, the party would most certainly be over. thumbsup.gif

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 20 2015, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Apr 14 2015, 06:11 PM) *
If a genuine investigation is launched and it gets to close to the truth, the perpetrarors of 9/11 (a covert political entity) will simply accelerate their schedule by committing another or even multiple similar staged attacks in order to justify the immediate declaration of Martial Law or the imposition of other severe socio-economic restrictions on the general populace to remain in control, prevent any further investigative progress and avoid answering for thier crimes.


...The battle is lost.


Isaac nice to meet you here!

Although we likely come from different backgrounds and have done our research independently of each other we have essentially come to the same conclusions about 9/11.

I would just like to suggest a more encompassing and likely entity than the one you frequently mention, "covert political entity" as being responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Many have concluded that it was the 'Deep State' that was responsible for planning and carrying out 9/11.
The Deep State is much more inclusive than a rogue covert political entity.

As for the battle being lost. Yes it is quite depressing to consider our chances of gaining the upper hand with such a mighty enemy as the Deep State.
I would rather remain optimistic that somehow, somewhere, someone will find the key to unite the masses in protest and bring down this oppressive monster.





Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 21 2015, 12:29 AM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 20 2015, 02:38 PM) *
As for the battle being lost. Yes it is quite depressing to consider our chances of gaining the upper hand with such a mighty enemy as the Deep State.
I would rather remain optimistic that somehow, somewhere, someone will find the key to unite the masses in protest and bring down this oppressive monster.


The Key?

Nothing beats "Education" and "Enlightenment" of course,

and not to forget this reminder:

"T.T.T.

Put up in a place
where it's easy to see
the cryptic admonishment
T.T.T.

When you feel how depressingly
slowly you climb,
it's well to remember that
Things Take Time."
(Grook by Piet Hein).




Cheers

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 21 2015, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 20 2015, 11:29 PM) *
The Key?

Nothing beats "Education" and "Enlightenment" of course,



I agree.


I was alive and kicking when BSM wrote this song. I remember it well.

In her interview where she explains the meaning behind her lyrics
she makes a critical error.

She blames us all for allowing governments to continue their destructive rampaging and endless wars.

Even at the time she wrote Universal Soldier, it was not the government who was beating the war drums but rather the deep state.

They were well-established/entrenched as the de facto power calling all the geo-political shots.

Then, as now, the deep state has got us by the balls. Who can rally the troops to defeat them?


Posted by: IsaacNewton Apr 21 2015, 06:21 PM

Hey Tamborine man....

Hah! Well, one relatively good natured short ramble deserves another, I'm up for it. I looked at the Original Post of your "Life after Death" thread and your Post 11 too, and we're in the same ball park (as far as believing in reincarnation goes anyway, not buying all the carved in stone talk of what God does and doesn't hear, what God will or won't do, what can or can't be attributed to God and all the rest as if you guys play poker every Wednesday night). I tend to lean heavily in the direction a non-religious form of reincarnation, based partly on historical precedent setting beliefs....

http:///wiki/Pythagoras#Religion_and_science

http:///wiki/Druid#Philosophy

....and partly on rigorously conducted research....

http:///wiki/Ian_Stevenson#Reincarnation_research

QUOTE
....so sorry to have overestimated your intelligence to such an extent.


Hah! Apologies Tamborine man, but then.... you were warned. I believe I mentioned I was an eighth grade high school dropout, so you really shouldn't be at all discomfitted or surprised now experiencing first hand my complete lack of intellectual capacity or my having none of the necessary time honored academically aquired mental tools traditionally required for the logical formulation or cogent elucidation of any real or abstract concepts in any kind of substantial, compelling or meaningful way.

QUOTE
If you had bothered to look at the OP in the 'Life after Death thread', you would have found that the thread started 5 years ago and is still very much alive and kicking, consisting of 48 pages now with a visitors count of over 107.000 and rising daily. And that's in spite of the fact i haven't contributed anything there since Nov. 2014!


Right, I should have checked it out first, sorry. You know, I didn't initially see any obvious connection between the thread "Life after Death" and WTC7 or the magnitude of the implications being raised here (in the dimension we're all currently in) so I didn't bother looking at it, but now that I have, I must admit, I still don't see any connection between the thread "Life after Death" and WTC7 or the magnitude of the implications being raised here (in the dimension we're all currently in).... glad we cleared that up.

Not saying I discount your beliefs or what you have to say there, only that they (beliefs) have no obvious contextual relevance to or impact on the predicament created for the American people (and by extension the people of all NATO member countries) as a direct result of 9/11 when the curtain slipped for 2.25 seconds and clearly revealed, once and for all and in no uncertain terms, the true nature and mechanism of governance the people currently exist under (and likely always have).... 9/11 showed conclusively that it's not a Democracy (except where allowed, such as at the local level with levies, initiatives, bond measures, recalls and etc.), and proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the peoples votes (provably as of 9/11/2001, but likely much earlier) have absolutely no direct or even indirect influence whatsoever on the course this Ship of State is really on (and likely never has). It also showed concretely and without any ambiguity that when it comes to the actual course being charted, the revolving door of Presidents on parade have had about as much latitude or ability to act independently or control anything as the ornamental carved wooden figurehead supporting a bowsprit has the ability to control or influence the course being charted by the Captain in the great cabin of a heavilly armed three masted frigate.... none at all.

QUOTE
At the same time you would maybe perhaps also have understood that my question: "Why such a long thread?" was an obvious reference to my own, and therefore had nothing whatsoever to do with you or 'excontroller', but should simply be seen as a little incentive for you to take a look at post #11, but .....alas!


Acknowledged, my mistake about the "Why such a long thread?" thing. I read your Post 11, loved the Leonardo bit by the way.... and I thought I came from an eccentric family! You've got us all beat by a mile man, even my Mom (though I should be clear I respect everyones beliefs in the realm of philosophy)....

http:///

And by the way, while were on the subject, I think I may have old Leonardo beat too, after all, (inhaling deeply) he never managed to come up with a uniquely balanced pendulous mechanism that boasts four distinct possible positions of equilibrium (two stable and two unstable) which in a local uniform gravitational field undergoes immediate and forceful onset of rotation through 360 degrees in either direction by effecting a slight change in the condition of the mechanism that doesn't require the actual raising or lowering of any mass in the process either when starting or during continued rotation (imaginary applause rising in the background)....

http:///

QUOTE
I think that your 'unintelligible drivel' remark easily turns against yourself, especially with your above
post...."


Sorry man, in the context of what's being discussed here it still looks that way to me. Maybe if you could explain (in less than ten thousand words) what difference any part of your seemingly endless rambling multi-dimensional ever evolving manifesto over there in "Life after Death" makes in the current situation as I've accurately described it (solidly based as it is on empirically established fact) or how it might change the possible outcomes as I outlined them that naturally follow from it (in this dimension) would help.

QUOTE
but also previously when you try to teach members here "how to suck eggs" with regard to 9/11.


Sorry if it came accross that way, my real motivation right from the start with all this (here and elsewhere) has been to get to the bottom of it for myself really more than trying to convince anyone else of anything, and I have gotten to the bottom of it (a good thing).... so no matter how much people continue to discuss all the various other elements of the whole thing (many of which really are interesting) like the Pentagon no plane theory, or the Shanksville hole in the ground, or the Twin Towers, or the ability level of the pilots, or what Larry Silverstein really meant, or the impossible phone calls, or any of the myriad other details that may or may not eventually bear fruit in the course of a criminal investigation, the fact remains.... scientifically, I absolutely know it's an empirically established fact that WTC7 literally had to have been brought down by intentional explosive demolition. That fact (as far as I'm concerned) essentially renders the rest of the events that day academic. That fact alone (long agreed upon now by both the NIST and independent researchers alike), the 2.25 second period of gravitational acceleration of the upper part of WTC7, as anyone who made it through the eighth grade is fully qualified to attest to in a Court of Law, is solid probable cause for the instant launching of a full scale criminal investigation of that and all the other events of that day as well (and likely much, much more). I'm certain that will never happen, as I mentioned before, this has provably been going on for a very, very long time now. The only difference between now and then is that because of the technology everyone and their grandmother knows about it.... yet continue to hand over tax dollars to keep the whole thing going, very much like the citizens of Nazi Germany did. Back then, after the war, the citizens of Nazi Germany were all seen as literally having blood on their hands and many were promptly shipped off for slave labor themselves on the very same trains used for prisoner transport during the Reich. It just seems to me that now, just as then, anyone who knowingly willingly does that, hands over even one federal tax dollar that buys even one bullet casing for these guys fits that profie (myself included, albeit with clean hands, I've still never paid any federal taxes).... How else can one see it?

QUOTE
On that score you'll probably be more than 8 years behind the mark - if not much more!


Right, definitely a bit on the slow side (you're not the first to notice), lucky for me we have reincarnation, though Fukushima may eventually have some impact on that....

http:///

You're a good sport man.... Cheers!

Posted by: IsaacNewton Apr 21 2015, 10:56 PM

Hey NP1Mike (nice to meet you here too)....

QUOTE
Although we likely come from different backgrounds and have done our research independently of each other we have essentially come to the same conclusions about 9/11.


Right, in view of the link I posted a link to my Moms website and some of the other stuff I wrote, your assessment that our backgrounds are likely different could be a bit of an understatement! Curious now though (if you don't mind that is).... What's your background NP1Mike?

QUOTE
I would just like to suggest a more encompassing and likely entity than the one you frequently mention, "covert political entity" as being responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Many have concluded that it was the 'Deep State' that was responsible for planning and carrying out 9/11.

The Deep State is much more inclusive than a rogue covert political entity.


I don't know, we could call it the DS (Deep State), or the DPE (Deep Political Entity), or the CSE (Covert State Entity) or the CDE (Covert Deep Entity), or just the DE (Deep Entity.... kind of like that one, sounds like a movie title), maybe the SE (State Entity), there's even the all inclusive MRCCDSCUIDDCIANGPTE (Murderous Rogue Criminal Covert Deep State Constitutionally Unauthorized Illegal Department of Defense Central Intelligence Agency NATO Global Political Terrorist Entity.... just having a bit of fun there), I suppose there are a number of more or less inclusive things it could be called.... except a Democracy, it can't be called a Democracy. I'll just stick with the CPE (Covert Political Entity) as being the most descriptive.... it's Covert (not openly shown, engaged in, or avowed), it's Political (of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government) and it's an Entity (independent, separate, or self-contained existence).

QUOTE
As for the battle being lost. Yes it is quite depressing to consider our chances of gaining the upper hand with such a mighty enemy as the Deep State.
I would rather remain optimistic that somehow, somewhere, someone will find the key to unite the masses in protest and bring down this oppressive monster.


Understood, looks like we'll all just have to wait and see how it turns out, looks like that's all anyone can really do, glad I'm fifty-six with no kids.... take care.

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 22 2015, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Apr 21 2015, 10:21 AM) *
Hey Tamborine man....

Hah! Well, one relatively good natured short ramble deserves another, I'm up for it. I looked at the Original Post of your "Life after Death" thread and your Post 11 too, and we're in the same ball park (as far as believing in reincarnation goes anyway, not buying all the carved in stone talk of what God does and doesn't hear, what God will or won't do, what can or can't be attributed to God and all the rest as if you guys play poker every Wednesday night). I tend to lean heavily in the direction a non-religious form of reincarnation, based partly on historical precedent setting beliefs....


Hi IsaacNewton,

appreciate your "good nature'd" reply - so, many thanks!

Just this point: 'Reincarnation' of course, has nothing to do with peoples belief systems,
but should for the majority of people merely be seen (allegorically speaking) as leaving
behind an old dilapidated bummer of a car, soon to be replaced by a slick, smooth,
faster and more comfortable version of the same kind. This will obviously not apply to
nasty warmongers or members of the DS, DPE, CDE, or whatever else you want to call
them, whose transitional journey undoubtedly will go from bad to worse.

QUOTE
Hah! Apologies Tamborine man, but then.... you were warned. I believe I mentioned I was an eighth grade high school dropout, so you really shouldn't be at all discomfitted or surprised now experiencing first hand my complete lack of intellectual capacity or my having none of the necessary time honored academically aquired mental tools traditionally required for the logical formulation or cogent elucidation of any real or abstract concepts in any kind of substantial, compelling or meaningful way.


Apologies accepted with pleasure and respect.

Well, i can beat you there.
I was "advised" to leave school after grade 7 at the ripe 'old' age of 13 years and 11 months.
(Start of school holidays in my native country)! Have no regrets never doing my homework
as 'required' by the 'authorities'.
Must have followed my 'heart' in those bygone days, otherwise i wouldn't be writing this post
right now, naturally! Actually consider myself rather fortunate never to harbour any ambitions
for "academia". In fact - to the contrary.

QUOTE
Right, I should have checked it out first, sorry. You know, I didn't initially see any obvious connection between the thread "Life after Death" and WTC7 or the magnitude of the implications being raised here (in the dimension we're all currently in) so I didn't bother looking at it, but now that I have, I must admit, I still don't see any connection between the thread "Life after Death" and WTC7 or the magnitude of the implications being raised here (in the dimension we're all currently in).... glad we cleared that up.


The connection is there for all to see. An observant reader will there find that the extraordinarily
sublime event that took place in the transcendental world way back in the year 1911, had direct
consequences for what took place on Earth in that century and the following, including WW1,
WW2 and 9/11!

QUOTE
Not saying I discount your beliefs or what you have to say there, only that they (beliefs) .......


See above!

In post #11 on page 1 i promise "certainty", not 'beliefs'.
Since the thread started 5 years ago, there has been not a single voice of dissent or opposition,
nor any attempts to repudiate the proofs given therein.This must surely speak for itself - i hope!

QUOTE
Acknowledged, my mistake about the "Why such a long thread?" thing. I read your Post 11, loved the Leonardo bit by the way.... and I thought I came from an eccentric family! You've got us all beat by a mile man, even my Mom (though I should be clear I respect everyones beliefs in the realm of philosophy)....


thumbsup.gif

QUOTE
And by the way, while were on the subject, I think I may have old Leonardo beat too, after all, (inhaling deeply) he never managed to come up with a uniquely balanced pendulous mechanism that boasts four distinct possible positions of equilibrium (two stable and two unstable) which in a local uniform gravitational field undergoes immediate and forceful onset of rotation through 360 degrees in either direction by effecting a slight change in the condition of the mechanism that doesn't require the actual raising or lowering of any mass in the process either when starting or during continued rotation (imaginary applause rising in the background)....


Well, he lived in the 16th. Century, so give the 'poor' man a chance please!
Who knows, he might come back one day under a different name to give it another try?

By the way, none of your links can be opened, so you must be doing something wrong there;
and of course, am thus prevented therefore to offer any comments to your above 'critique'.

QUOTE
Sorry man, in the context of what's being discussed here it still looks that way to me. Maybe if you could explain (in less than ten thousand words) what difference any part of your seemingly endless rambling multi-dimensional ever evolving manifesto over there in "Life after Death" makes in the current situation as I've accurately described it (solidly based as it is on empirically established fact) or how it might change the possible outcomes as I outlined them that naturally follow from it (in this dimension) would help.


See above. At least that should do for a start!

QUOTE
Sorry if it came accross that way, my real motivation right from the start with all this (here and elsewhere) has been to get to the bottom of it for myself really more than trying to convince anyone else of anything, and I have gotten to the bottom of it (a good thing)....


No problem mate, and thanks for the clarification!

QUOTE
You're a good sport man.... Cheers!


Seems to me you're a better one!

Cheers

cheers.gif

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 22 2015, 11:35 AM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 21 2015, 06:27 AM) *
I agree.
......
Even at the time she wrote Universal Soldier, it was not the government who was beating the war drums but rather the deep state.

They were well-established/entrenched as the de facto power calling all the geo-political shots.

Then, as now, the deep state has got us by the balls. Who can rally the troops to defeat them?


Actually it's us who got them "by the balls" ......but sadly, they don't know that yet!

Here's an excerpt from a post in the 'Life after Death' thread:

".......
There is one provision under the Law of Retribution none can avoid except the youngest of human spirits,
not yet able to respond to their conscience. Applying to the spiritual ego of humans and the Youngest and
Eldest alike, this provision requires that all who commit acts of murder or in some other way cause loss of
life of fellow beings, must, in a subsequent incarnation, save from sudden death the same number of lives
taken. (See above post).

However, this provision can be applied in different ways. Those judged and penalized under earthly law have
nothing more for which to atone.
But since God's law requires that those who kill must in later incarnations
save lives, anyone already punished under earthly law will comply with this provision through an act of love,
giving them the protection of God so that they emerge unharmed from the perilous task. Not so for those
who have evaded earthly justice. They are protected neither by the guardian spirit nor by God during
attempts to save other lives. They never escape some form of harm, such as death, maiming, prolonged
illness, burns, or the like. In other words, they must atone for past crimes with their own lives or with bodily
suffering. Thus God's Law of Retribution can in certain cases require a life for a life; however, the earthly
courts of law have not a similar right.


Those who as earthly rulers, military commanders, or leaders of the people are indirectly responsible for the
loss of great numbers of lives during wars and uprisings or through death penalties, can expiate their guilt in
subsequent incarnations by saving a large number of people from impending catastrophe, for example through
action to avert man-made or natural disasters, as inventors making safe otherwise dangerous occupations, or
as scientists who find ways to prevent or control the diseases that are such a scourge to mankind in so many
ways. God Himself ensures through this provision the correct balance between the human lives lost and those
lives that in compensation are to be saved from premature or painful death.
The last two means of atonement apply only to the Youngest and partly to the Eldest, since human spirits
clearly possess not sufficient spiritual powers to act as inventors or scientists in life on Earth.
......."

If anyone feel like reading this in its proper context, He or she can go to page 44
and read posts #869 and #870 in the thread mentioned above.
(Devout 'Atheists' and 'Christians' are hereby forewarned: They won't like it)!

Cheers

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 22 2015, 12:34 PM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 22 2015, 10:35 AM) *
Actually it's us who got them "by the balls" ......but sadly, they don't know that yet!

Here's an excerpt from a post in the 'Life after Death' thread:



There is life after death, but unfortunately, not for those who have died.

We only get one crack at this, so get crackin' now!

Posted by: rob balsamo Apr 22 2015, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 22 2015, 12:34 PM) *
We only get one crack at this, so get crackin' now!


I agree....



Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 22 2015, 09:37 PM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 22 2015, 04:34 AM) *
There is life after death, but unfortunately, not for those who have died.

We only get one crack at this, so get crackin' now!


Must humbly disagree.

Your Thought and your Will, your memories and your talents, are not subjected
to decay and annihilation. This can only happen to your physical body, which is
composed of quite different and much bigger particles and molecules of a far
different kind.

Your Thoughts, just as well as Music (with help of vibrations and wavelengths
of much finer particles), can effortlessly penetrate thick walls, whereas your
body of course cannot.
Neither your Thoughts nor f. ex. Music and Speech consist of any space-filling
properties in the physical world.

Think deeply about this, and you'll find that it will be absolutely impossible for
you to explain to anybody how your non-physical Thoughts and Will (and sound),
can cease to exist!

Cheers

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 22 2015, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 22 2015, 08:37 PM) *
Must humbly disagree.

Your Thought and your Will, your memories and your talents, are not subjected
to decay and annihilation. This can only happen to your physical body, which is
composed of quite different and much bigger particles and molecules of a far
different kind.



And your fantasies about life after death will live long after you are six feet under.

Trouble is, no one will ever be able to know about them after you are gone.

Unless of course you write a book about them. smile.gif


Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 23 2015, 03:25 AM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 22 2015, 02:28 PM) *
And your fantasies about life after death will live long after you are six feet under.

Trouble is, no one will ever be able to know about them after you are gone.

Unless of course you write a book about them. smile.gif


"Fantasies"!! Jeeez, how cynical you are dear NP1Mike. rolleyes.gif

Here's what i suggested to the readers down in 'Life after Death':

"Curiosità", Leonardo da Vinci's first principle, is irrevocably connected to the
well-known schism that took place within the philosophical world around 150 years ago.

Philosophers Descartes and Hegel claimed that all true philosophy should start with doubt.

Contrary to this, Socrates and Kierkegaard maintained that all true philosophy should start
with wonder.

With his "curiosità", Da Vinci is obviously totally on the side with Socrates and Kierkegaard
as all thinking people should be ......as it would be impossible the find Truth through doubt.
Doubt is therefore the bane of mankind.
Don't go there.
Wonder wonderfully instead.

Come on NP1Mike, why not give it a try! wink.gif

Cheers

PS!
The "book'' has already been written - close to 100 years ago!

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 25 2015, 06:33 AM

Led Zeppelin.

"......
there's feeling I get
when I look to the west
and my spirit is crying for leaving
In my Thoughts I'm sick ....
...

Ooh it makes me wonder ....
Ooh, it really makes me wonder ....

...

There walks a Lady we all know
who shines white light and wants to show
how everything still turns to gold
and if you listen very hard
the Truth will come to you at last
when all are one and one is all
to be a rock and not a roll."




They could have been a little bit 'out there' ......perhaps!!

Cheers

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 25 2015, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 25 2015, 05:33 AM) *
Led Zeppelin.

"... the Truth will come to you at last
when all are one and one is all
to be a rock and not a roll."



They could have been a little bit 'out there' ......perhaps!!

Cheers


Just one small problem with your posit.
A rock is not life. smile.gif

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 25 2015, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 25 2015, 05:47 AM) *
Just one small problem with your posit.
A rock is not life. smile.gif


Here, let me fix your "problem" in a flash ......'rock'! wink.gif

Cheers

Posted by: 23investigator Apr 26 2015, 06:24 AM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 26 2015, 10:51 AM) *
Here, let me fix your "problem" in a flash ......'rock'! wink.gif

Cheers


Dear 'Tamborine man' : he has a lot to learn!!!!

Robert D S

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 26 2015, 12:01 PM

QUOTE (23investigator @ Apr 26 2015, 05:24 AM) *
Dear 'Tamborine man' : he has a lot to learn!!!!

Robert D S



Must be something in the water in Australia. smile.gif

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 26 2015, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 26 2015, 04:01 AM) *
Must be something in the water in Australia. smile.gif


No. It's in Uluru ......repeat: U-L-U-R-U ......and try again ...... and again ...... to you get it right??

It's ALL in the TRUE "Pronunciation", dear NP1Mike! smile.gif

Cheers

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 27 2015, 08:53 PM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 26 2015, 01:10 PM) *
No. It's in Uluru ......repeat: U-L-U-R-U ......and try again ...... and again ...... to you get it right??

It's ALL in the TRUE "Pronunciation", dear NP1Mike! smile.gif

Cheers



Mother Earth giving birth to a 'Rock'?? Would've loved to see that!

A small group of Aboriginals once tried to teach me how to say the word
in their language. After quite a few tries, think i finally got it - at least it
felt that way!

The first 8 minutes is all Uluru:



Cheers

Posted by: 23investigator Apr 27 2015, 10:51 PM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 28 2015, 10:23 AM) *
Mother Earth giving birth to a 'Rock'?? Would've loved to see that!

A small group of Aboriginals once tried to teach me how to say the word
in their language. After quite a few tries, think i finally got it - at least it
felt that way!

The first 8 minutes is all Uluru:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fHS5WrgW3uI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cheers


Thank you 'Tamborine man'.

And we arrogant 'white men': pretend we are able to tell the "people" who have lived with and respected these magnificent formations how to live life!

I am very fortunate to live close to a place in South Australia where the "people" mined ochre from the cliffs on the shore of what we have called Gulf Snt Vincent.

To take a walk there and allow the spirit of the area to fill my being, is such a connection to our existence: this is where we are: literally on a "very large rock": spinning majestically in the universe.

Robert D S

Posted by: NP1Mike Apr 28 2015, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 27 2015, 07:53 PM) *
Mother Earth giving birth to a 'Rock'?? Would've loved to see that!

A small group of Aboriginals once tried to teach me how to say the word
in their language. After quite a few tries, think i finally got it - at least it
felt that way!

The first 8 minutes is all Uluru:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fHS5WrgW3uI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cheers


Nice rocks T-Man.
We've got equally impressive rocks and mountains here in Canada.
And many other nature-goodies too. smile.gif

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 28 2015, 03:40 AM

QUOTE (23investigator @ Apr 27 2015, 02:51 PM) *
Thank you 'Tamborine man'.

And we arrogant 'white men': pretend we are able to tell the "people" who have lived with and respected these magnificent formations how to live life!

I am very fortunate to live close to a place in South Australia where the "people" mined ochre from the cliffs on the shore of what we have called Gulf Snt Vincent.

To take a walk there and allow the spirit of the area to fill my being, is such a connection to our existence: this is where we are: literally on a "very large rock": spinning majestically in the universe.

Robert D S


Very good comment, followed by very fine sentiments!

Thanks Robert.

Cheers

Posted by: Tamborine man Apr 28 2015, 03:51 AM

QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Apr 27 2015, 04:27 PM) *
Nice rocks T-Man.
We've got equally impressive rocks and mountains here in Canada.
And many other nature-goodies too. smile.gif


Agree with the 'Mountains and the other nature-goodies' of course .... thumbsup.gif

Cheers mate

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