The Malthusian Conspiracy?, The Possible Big Picture Options

[Timothy Osman]

Usually when I discuss this with folks who are either new to or cold to deep history I bring up the story of rabbit island. Surely you've heard it. Captain Cook or one other such dude, it matters not the name, during his travels, once dumped goods and livestock on a remote, lush, tropical island. He planned to return later to collect his wares. Among the livestock were a couple of rabbits.

When he returned, the island was no more. Ney, it was a barren rock, devoid of life, a windswept bolder rising from the waters. Atop the rock were only rabbit skeletons.

Get the point? Left alone, the rabbits will consume and procreate until there is nothing left to consume, then they will consume each other until the very last is dead.

George your Rabbit analogy is pretty good at describing a Malthusian conclusion, the problem is it's flawed. Those Rabbits were probably of Irish extraction raised on English owned land in Ireland and then shipped out with all types of other provisions grown for the service of the empire.
The solution to this catastrophe is that the Rabbits did not belong on an island in the South seas, just as the English landowners had no business being in Ireland. The Rabbits belonged on an Irishman's plate, their pelts converted into a fine hat to keep the sun off his head while he farmed his own land. To be sure and not for taters either.

Seriously though people aren't Rabbits and population alone will never cause starvation among human beings, the main causes are War, Inequality, Greed and the creature from Jekyll Island. Population will be a factor in the severity never the cause.
Our leaders know our system can't have just winners, someone has to lose in capitalism. Its the nature of the beast. What they're doing now is determining who they see as being the long term losers and it looks like they're adding Russia to the list of undesirables. IMO Israel is central to their plans as a Mediterranean power and this is where the cross eyed religious nut jobs of the bible belt come in, they're are important to the Zionist agenda.

[Timothy Osman]

Some video's with Former UN Environmental Advisor Peter Taylor.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xvO6oLYWAQI

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kLR95w0qBD0&...feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UUUYcfsaSnw&...feature=related

A great article called The Malthus Factor.

http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/item.shtml?x=51976

Which I wish I had seen a few months ago, It has a better description of the Irish event than I managed.

Introduction

Thomas Malthus, a 19th century cleric of the Church of Eng-land, is today remembered chiefly as the originator of a theory about human population. The principal tenet of that theory is that, because the number of people doubles every 25 years (unless checked), thus growing at a geometric rate (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc), while food production increases at just an arithmetic rate (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc), population will always outstrip food supply.

Today, as in Malthus's time, this assumption persists as a common explanation for poverty, death and environmental degradation. Despite formidable and compelling criticism,1 it continues to produce in the West and among Western-influenced elites an unremitting anxiety about "over-population". Its greatest achievement, however, has been to provide an enduring argument for the prevention of social and economic change and to obscure, in both academic and popular thinking, the real roots of poverty, inequality and environmental deterioration. As such, no other ideological framework has so effectively legitimised Western interests, development theories and strategies, especially the Green Revolution and, now, genetic engineering in agriculture.

The Malthusian argument has consistently overwhelmed other explanations of poverty. Malthusian famine scenarios have systematically distracted attention from the fact that it is not people's reproductive habits that are the principal source of most of the misuse or waste of the world's resources, but the contradictions and motives of capitalist development.

This briefing aims to show that today's debates about such issues as welfare, the minimum wage and immigration continue to be influenced by obscurantist Malthusian arguments which reaffirm the privileges of the few over the hopes of the many.

It first outlines Malthus's theory and its aims, in particular, to defend private property and to absolve the state and wealthier segments of society from responsibility for poverty. It then looks at the theory's uses in eugenicist, anti-immigration and certain environmentalist arguments, and considers uses to which Malthusian thinking has been put by Cold War and Green Revolution interests. Finally, the briefing explores some of the ways in which Malthusian thinking is currently employed in discussions of globalisation, violent conflict, immigration and the environment. The briefing concludes by noting that the rejection of Malthusianism involves systemic social change.
Malthus's "Law of Nature"

[Timothy Osman]

The Limits to Growth

Abstract established by Eduard Pestel
by Donella H. Meadows, Dennis L. Meadows,
Jorgen Randers, William W. Behrens III

A Report to The Club of Rome (1972)



Short Version of the Limits to Growth

If there is cause for deep concern, there is also cause for hope.
Deliberately limiting growth would be difficult, but not
impossible. The way to proceed is clear, and the necessary steps,
although they are new ones for human society, are well within
human capabilities. Man possesses, for a small moment in his
history, the most powerful combination of knowledge, tools, and
resources the world has ever known. He has all that is physically
necessary to create a totally new form of human society -- one
that would be built to last for generations. The two missing
ingredients are a realistic, long-term goal that can guide mankind
to the equilibrium society and the human will to achieve that
goal. Without such a goal and a commitment to it, short-term
concerns will generate the exponential growth that drives the
world system toward the limits of the earth and ultimate collapse.
With that goal and that commitment, mankind would be ready now to
begin a controlled, orderly transition from growth to global
equilibrium.

http://www.ratical.org/corporations/limit2growth.txt

[lunk]

Knowing now what we didn't then...

These ideas have not been fully thought out.
The conclusions drawn could therefore be incorrect.
Following this agenda could result in the destruction of life on Earth,
as we know it.

...but maybe that's the psychopaths' plan...

but it can't work as newer knowledge has emerged,
contrary to the now known incorrect assumptions
that were thought to be facts,
back in 1972.

from what I am beginning to understand,

imo, lunk

[Timothy Osman]

but maybe that's the psychopaths' plan...

but it can't work as newer knowledge has emerged,
contrary to the now known incorrect assumptions
that were thought to be facts,
back in 1972.

The psychopaths never let the facts stand in the way of a good catastrophe, or any way to reduce the numbers of useless eaters.
Regardless of whether the population was 3.7 billion like in the 70's or 6.6.6 billion as they like to say today or if the population was 2 billion there would be a group of rich pricks worried about not having plenty of parking for the Rolls.

Check this out.

http://www.oldthinkernews.com/Articles/old...onmentalism.htm

Spelling (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by Timothy Osman: Sep 10 2008, 03:00 AM

[Timothy Osman]

The Hockey stick, Pucked Again

Monkton's demolition of the deception behind the infamous hockey stick. For anyone still doubting the scientific fraud involved in AGW.
For me this pseudo science is as clearly false as a failed Cessna pilot simultaneously hitting and missing the Pentagon from Three different approaches. Each failed attempt by a government agency to make their case looks more ridiculous to anyone aware while at the same time giving the willfully deceived some more sh*t to cling to.

It's here in the Malthus thread because of Monkton's conclusion.

Conclusion

The continuing affair of the “hockey-stick” graph is a microcosm of the profound collapse of the rigor,
objectivity, and honesty that were once hallmarks of the scientific community. The need to look to the
State for very nearly all science funding has inflicted upon the scientific community a dull, dishonest
uniformity, so that the deliberate falsification of results to support the current official orthodoxy has
become commonplace, particularly where the climate question is concerned.
It was bad enough that one of those behind the “hockey stick” affair should have told a fellowresearcher,
“We need to get rid of the medieval warm period.” It was worse that the authors of the
bogus graph attempted to do just that, by ignoring, undervaluing or even suppressing proxies for
northern-hemisphere temperature that did not suit the result they wanted; by falsely stating that they
had used data they had in fact replaced with “estimates” of their own that gave them a less inconvenient
answer; by overvaluing by many orders of magnitude the contribution of datasets that suited the result
they wanted.
It was worse still that the IPCC, several leading journals and numerous former co-authors of the three
fabricators of the hockey stick should have continued to cling to it as though it were Gospel even
though it has been justifiably and utterly discredited in the scientific literature, and should have gone
through an elaborate pantomime of rewriting and publishing previously-rejected papers with the
connivance of a dishonest journal editor, so that an entirely fictitious scientific support for the false
graph could be falsely claimed by the IPCC in its current Fourth Assessment Report.
The IPCC might have regained some of the scientific credibility that it lost by its publication of the
2001 graph if, in its 2007 assessment report, it had had the integrity, honesty, and common sense to
apologise for the failure of its soi-disant “peer-review” process to identify the multiple and serious
scientific errors that led to the publication of the graph.
As it is, the IPCC, rather than apologizing, has chosen to participate in the falsification of subsequent
results purporting to uphold the original graph, and altogether to ignore papers such as those whose
graphs are shown here, confirming the well-established historical record of the existence of the
medieval warm period. No serious scientist, therefore, can any longer take any of the IPCC’s
conclusions seriously for a single moment longer. As Lord Lawson of Blaby has long argued, the IPCC
should now be abolished. It cannot serve any useful purpose in future, because it has dishonestly lent
its support not merely to the falsification of scientific results but to the persistent maintenance of that
falsification. The IPCC is finished.
Was there a medieval warm period? Yes. Was that period warmer worldwide than the present? Yes.
Are today’s global temperatures exceptional? No. Have the past ten thousand years been generally
warmer than the present? Yes: much warmer. Is there, therefore, the slightest reason for the childish
panic that the environmental extremist movement and its servant the IPCC have attempted to whip up?
No. Should any government devote a single further penny to the climate scare? No. Even if humankind
is contributing significantly to warmer weather (which is highly unlikely), adaptation to warmer
weather as and if necessary would be orders of magnitude cheaper than the measures to reduce carbon
emissions that the world’s extremist politicians are now so eagerly but purposelessly advocating.
The real cost of the flagrant abuses of the scientific method surrounding the question of climate that are
so well illustrated by the affair of the “hockey stick” is a terrible, unseen cost in human lives. The
32
biofuel scam that arose directly out of the climate scare has taken one-third of US agricultural land out
of food production in just two years. Similar economic disasters have occurred worldwide, not because
of “global warming” but because of the catastrophically bad policy-making that the “global warming”
scare has engendered among politicians too ignorant of science and too lazy to do other than swim with
the rising tide of pseudo-scientific nonsense.
The environmental extremists, who have already killed 50 million children through malaria by their
now-canceled ban on the use of DDT, the only effective agent against the anopheles mosquito that
spreads the infective parasite, are already eagerly killing millions more through their latest
scientifically-baseless scare – the “global warming” panic pandemic. Food riots are occurring
throughout the world among the poorest of the poor in many countries: but the desperation, starvation,
disease, and death that accompany the sudden famines that the biofuel-driven doubling of world food
prices has engendered are scarcely reported by our news media. In Haiti, they are eating mud pies made
of earth, water, a tiny knob of butter, and a pinch of salt; or they sell the mud pies to less fortunate
neighbours at 3 US cents each. Has any Western news medium reported this, or the hundreds of other
agonizing stories of famine and starvation all round the world? No. Instead, every icicle that falls in
Greenland is paraded as an omen of imminent doom: and, as for the crooked pseudo-scientists who
invented the hockey stick, supported it, and continue to parade it in the mendacious documents of the
IPCC, no journalist would dare to ask any of them the questions that would expose their self-seeking
corruption for what it is. These evil pseudo-scientists, through the falsity of their statistical
manipulations, have already killed far more people through starvation than “global warming” will ever
kill. They should now be indicted and should stand trial alongside Radovan Karadzic for nothing less
than high crimes against humanity: for, in their callous disregard for the fatal consequences of their
corrupt falsification of science, they are no less guilty of genocide than he.

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/s...ockey_stick.pdf

[Timothy Osman]

The Seed Barons
How Big Ag, Big Oil & Big Government
Are Hijacking the World’s Food Supply

Acres USA Interview with F. William Engdahl.

F. William Engdahl is an American based in Germany who is now doing some of the most aggressive
writing and reporting on genetically modified food. As he explains in the conversation that follows,
he came to the topic after many years of delving into the history, science and politics of energy,
specifically multinational oil companies. His 2004 book, A Century of War: Anglo-American
Politics and the New World Order, was a bestseller, and Engdahl contributes articles to Asia
Times, FinancialSense.com, Asia Inc., GlobalResearch.com, 321Gold.com, Japan’s Nihon Keizai
Shimbun and Foresight magazine, among others. Engdahl’s energy expertise turns out be ideal
preparation for the biotech wars, another realm governed by huge, shadowy transnational entities
with the power to affect millions of lives. Working at a distance from the American activist/liberal
community, Engdahl speaks with a refreshing lack of received opinion. He does not, for example,
subscribe to the global warming consensus; a topic we elected to take up at another time, the better
to concentrate on genetic engineering and the price of oil.

I like this bloke. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/prin...e08_Engdahl.pdf

[Timothy Osman]

The CO2 scam slithered into the fascist bailout bill. I guess this is one way of getting it into law and avoiding having to have a political mandate through debate.

http://cryptome.org/bailout-senate.pdf

( B) HIGHEST PRIORITY FOR PROJECTS 1
WHICH SEQUESTER CARBON DIOXIDE EMIS- 2
SIONS.—Section 48A(e)(3) is amended by strik- 3
ing ''and'' at the end of subparagraph (A)(iii), 4
by striking the period at the end of subpara- 5
graph ( B) (iii) and inserting '', and'', and by 6
adding at the end the following new subpara- 7
graph: 8
''© give highest priority to projects with 9
the greatest separation and sequestration per- 10
centage of total carbon dioxide emissions.''. 11
© RECAPTURE OF CREDIT FOR FAILURE 12
TO SEQUESTER.—Section 48A is amended by 13
adding at the end the following new subsection: 14
''(i) RECAPTURE OF CREDIT FOR FAILURE TO SE- 15
QUESTER.—The Secretary shall provide for recapturing the 16
benefit of any credit allowable under subsection (a) with 17
respect to any project which fails to attain or maintain 18
the separation and sequestration requirements of subsection

Funny I didn't put those emoticons on the quoted piece, the symbols must match the software code...Nothing cool about it.

This post has been edited by dMole: Oct 2 2008, 05:57 PM

Reason for edit: Turned off smileys

[Omega892R09]

The Hockey stick, Pucked Again

Monkton's demolition of the deception behind the infamous hockey stick. For anyone still doubting the scientific fraud involved in AGW.
For me this pseudo science is as clearly false as a failed Cessna pilot simultaneously hitting and missing the Pentagon from Three different approaches. Each failed attempt by a government agency to make their case looks more ridiculous to anyone aware while at the same time giving the willfully deceived some more sh*t to cling to.

It's here in the Malthus thread because of Monkton's conclusion.

Groan!

No.

It is here in the Malthus thread because you have not yet grasped the picture and continue to repeat garbage even after it has been shown up as such.

I have already sat on this Monkton crap and shown it for what it is unscientific obfuscation. This tells me that have you not yet visited some of the sites to which I provided links or read that 'Rough Guide' I have cited for if you had you would not be repeating this rhubarb.

Educate yourself.

[Timothy Osman]

It is here in the Malthus thread because you have not yet grasped the picture and continue to repeat garbage even after it has been shown up as such.

I have already sat on this Monkton crap and shown it for what it is unscientific obfuscation. This tells me that have you not yet visited some of the sites to which I provided links or read that 'Rough Guide' I have cited for if you had you would not be repeating this rhubarb.

Educate yourself.

Yes I have visited the BBC, found it to be a propaganda establishment. Yes I have visited the UK Met Office site, found out It's part of the ministry of defence. Yes I flicked through the rough guide, found the foreword was written by a eugenicist and that any serious book about climate change should recognize the role the IPCC has played in politicizing the science. It did not.

Just repeating your standard ad homs against anyone who questions your beliefs reminds me of religious fundamentalism.

You just can't make a gaia'n out of me and you find what I say an affront to your religion. Tough Titties.

[dMz]

Funny I didn't put those emoticons on the quoted piece, the symbols must match the software code...Nothing cool about it.

Hope you don't mind TO, but I fixed the smileys for you. There isn't an easy way to turn off the "copyright" symbol, but putting spaces around the 'c' or 'b' or doing this works: (_c_)

Here's where to turn off the smileys when posting (or the Full Editor should also show this):

(IMG:http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4659/annemoticonspa2.th.jpg) (IMG:http://img101.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif)

[Timothy Osman]

Hope you don't mind TO, but I fixed the smileys for you. There isn't an easy way to turn off the "copyright" symbol, but putting spaces around the 'c' or 'b' or doing this works: (_c_)

Thanks mate, feel free too correct my spelling, grammar and manners too. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Paulson's Pedigree

Why the carbon scam is in the bill.

http://www.capitalresearch.org/pubs/pdf/v1222698871.pdf

[Omega892R09]

Yes I have visited the BBC, found it to be a propaganda establishment. Yes I have visited the UK Met Office site, found out It's part of the ministry of defence. Yes I flicked through the rough guide, found the foreword was written by a eugenicist

Lovelock a eugenicist?

Come on!

Seems to me you need to look up the meaning of eugenicist in a dictionary.

So, I take it that in reality flicking through the 'Rough Guide' means that you dismissed it out of hand. This is not a surprise for reading it, understanding it and following up on the many excellent citations would have enlightened you to the fact that repetition of the diatribes of the like of Monkton will not turn them into truths.

BTW any BBC page pointed to was just one source of a story found in many other places. Just because your cognitive dissonance causes a problem with some reports to do with real events caused by climate change and/or global warming (note the difference and I'll leave it to you to find out what that is because then you may actually learn something useful) is no reason to paint all such as propaganda.

Whatever, if that is the net extent of your research then I should not be surprised that your arguments are less than balanced.

The Met' Office is part of the MOD! Please get your facts straight.

and that any serious book about climate change should recognize the role the IPCC has played in politicizing the science. It did not.

That charge betrays a serious misunderstanding of the intent of the book. The book was created as a primer on the science behind the mechanisms causing climate change and not as a political tool. It is intended for the folk such as yourself who have serious misconceptions of the issues. But it seems that the old saying about horses and water fits here. You don't want to know the truth.

Just repeating your standard ad homs against anyone who questions your beliefs reminds me of religious fundamentalism.

I have yet to use an 'ad hom', as you put it, in replies to your repetitions of nonsense most of which I try to ignore. You should perhaps look up the meaning of that term too in a dictionary. However, there comes a point when I must put in a corrective to your ceaseless distortions of fact.

You just can't make a gaia'n out of me and you find what I say an affront to your religion. Tough Titties.

How mature!

Gaia and religion have nothing to do with this issue. What you write is not an affront to any religion, I just don’t like to see people deluding themselves and selling themselves short.

Although Gaia, as far as the interconnectedness of the geophysical and biological processes of the earths systems is not entirely a bad idea. We upset the balance at our peril. Sadly it looks like we have upset things to much to ensure the survival of the species and we are set to bring down many other species with us. There is much evidence to support the theory that we are now in a period of mass extinctions the like of which not seen since the K-T boundary, but this time the activities of homo-sapiens are causing the extinctions, think not only of the larger animals.

But then in the longer, wider scheme of things our travails and ambitions are nothing and will be forgotten as the last lingering echo dies in the vastnesses of the insensate cosmos.

Arthur Balfour, British Prime Minister 1902-1905, nailed it:

"Imperishable monuments and immortal deeds, death itself and love stronger than death, will be as though they had never been. The energies of our system will decay, the glory of the sun will be dimmed and the earth tideless and inert, will no longer tolerate the race which has for a moment disturbed its solitude. Man will go down into the pit and all his thoughts will perish. The uneasy consciousness, which in this obscure corner has for a brief space broken the contented silence of the universe, will be at rest."

From Volume I of 'An Autobiography' (4 Volumes) by Margot Asquith page 265 as reprinted in 'Dreadnought: Britain, Germany and the Coming of the Great War' by Robert K. Massie.

[Omega892R09]

Paulson's Pedigree

Why the carbon scam is in the bill.

http://www.capitalresearch.org/pubs/pdf/v1222698871.pdf

Tim, well done, you have further empowered these reprobates.

Those who have for decades been trying to undermine the cause of those who are trying to ameliorate the effects of climate change are now rubbing their hands in glee because they, by inventing carbon trading, have managed to persuade those who may otherwise have thought differently that the whole of climate change study is a based on a giant scam. My reading informs me it is not.

[lunk]

The energies of our system will decay, the glory of the sun will be dimmed and the earth tideless and inert, will no longer tolerate the race which has for a moment disturbed its solitude. Man will go down into the pit and all his thoughts will perish. The uneasy consciousness, which in this obscure corner has for a brief space broken the contented silence of the universe, will be at rest.

I used to think this was the case,

...but what if it is wrong?

Does our outlook change?
Will this change are actions we are taking now?

Is a fish blissfully oblivious to the existence of water,
until it's caught out?

Air is invisible too, but it's necessary.

Imagine that we were all taught that the existence air was a conspiracy theory.

It dosen't exist, because you can't see it. And any one talking about the existence
of an atmosphere is deluded, or a science fiction writer.
...and when you ask others (who were taught the same thing) about it,
you are pigeon holed by them into the category of air head.

...So, you devise an experiment that proves that the air exists.
and then are ridiculed, even by well meaning, but deluded people,
and because of that, they don't even bother to look at your conclusive proof.

...After a while you start to realize that there are a few people
in positions of power and influence that must know full well that the air exists,
but are keeping quiet about it.

...After some more time passes, you start to notice that these same people are
spreading dis-information about the existence of air, and possibly you, too.

...then you discover that they are followers of a greater agenda, that can only exist, only if,
most all people believe that there is no such thing as air.

...then you realize that people are being held and worked like slaves by the their lack of knowledge of air.

maybe I'm just blowing bubbles, but this is like the big picture, the way I now see it, and

imo, lunk

[Omega892R09]

maybe I'm just blowing bubbles, but this is like the big picture, the way I now see it, and

imo, lunk

Each to their own lunk.

You have your ideas and I respect you for that.

I figure you know where I stand.

If things are like you say then what influence can we expect to have on the final outcome, in the universe or even local group of universes (universi?) of a larger cosmos.

However our actions will have much to do with outcomes on the way to that point. It is considered very likely that herbivorous dinosaurs changed the conditions at the earth’s surface so much by overgrazing and increasing the methane levels that they initiated the events which helped to ensure their own extinction. It was not so much a quick extinction because of some apocalyptic event but that such an event was the last straw following thousands of years of slow decline from degradation of habitat. At present we are the cause of a rapid, on a geological scale, degradation of habitat, a degradation of which global warming/climate change is only one factor, but an important one.

[lunk]

Dinosaurs sure must have passed a lot of gas.

You are right about humans having the ability to wreck our own environment and doing so.
But, J6P is just a flea on that brain chipped grizzly and not the main cause of the damage it's doing.
There seems to be a small group of people intent on making the rest of humanity look and feel bad.
We just don't know which ones they are, or their exact motivation but we can take a pretty good guess.

They have the ability to make a new servant society and the servants, better ones than the humans of today. Therefore, the human population must be drastically reduced and controlled in their reproduction, as they are no longer needed, or wanted by the hidden ruling elite.
We have served their purpose.

imo, lunk

[Timothy Osman]

Tim, well done, you have further empowered these reprobates.

Those who have for decades been trying to undermine the cause of those who are trying to ameliorate the effects of climate change are now rubbing their hands in glee because they, by inventing carbon trading, have managed to persuade those who may otherwise have thought differently that the whole of climate change study is a based on a giant scam. My reading informs me it is not.

What sort of twisted bullshit logic is this. The fact that what was a pretty harmless theory which caused a couple of Poindexters to soil their pocket protectors was hijacked by an Earth first movement led by a cartel of international criminal bankters has now finally got the legs they needed is somehow the fault of those trying to point out what the f*ck was going on. Yeah right.

Me thinks you're suffering from cognitive dissonance with the realization that you and all your tree hugging Malthusian mates have been had.

The theory that CO2 causes global warming was their perfect vehicle, since It's a bloody green house gas. All green house gasses contribute to warming the planet, without them you would be a pink Popsicle with your frozen arms locked around the trunk of some petrified dead tree.

You and your kind allowed yourselves to be brainwashed by the BBC and bullshit, you and you kind provided an unofficial mandate to the criminals and you and your kind are about to reap the benefits.

As one of these criminals one famously said, How Dare You.

[dMz]

Thanks mate, feel free too correct my spelling, grammar and manners too. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

While I'm a reasonable speller, you wouldn't want ME correcting bad manners, TO. When asked if I was raised in a barn, I used to reply, "No, but NOT VERY DAMN FAR from the barn!" (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laughing1.gif)

[dMz]

...After a while you start to realize that there are a few people
in positions of power and influence that must know full well that the air exists,
but are keeping quiet about it.

Why does that sound so familiar, lunk?