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Crawl Spaces Between Wtc Floors

Anduril
post May 24 2008, 10:26 AM
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It should prove very worthwhile to ascertain the configuration of the crawl spaces between the floors of the North and South Towers.

Each of the floors consisted of 22ga. steel pans infilled with four inches of concrete.

These floors were supported by the 33" high steel trusses which "tied" the interior 'tube' and the central load-bearing 'tube' together.

Since it is unlikely that tenants would want bare asbestos-covered trusses running across their ceilings, and since light fittings, cable ducting, and other services needed to be provided across each floor, it must be the case that suspended ceilings were used, with a 33" minimum crawl space between the false ceilings and the underneath of the floor pans. These crawl spaces must have been accessible from the service areas of the central cores.

They would be ideal for accessing the internal surfaces of the exterior structure for placement of cutting charges; the trusses; the floor pans with their (later wholly pulverized) concrete, using multiple C-4 charges or similar; and the exterior of the steelwork of the central cores (for thermate or similar charges).

Watching slow-motion videos of the demolitions, it is striking that the demolition configurations used were not designed to minimize collateral damage; they were configured to provide the maximum possible dramatic effects. Nothing strikes deeper fears than mushroom clouds. Whoever designed the demolitions of the North and South Towers was (is?) a genius in their calling. It would be most interesting to know who it is (was?).

And where their talents might be called upon next.

Regards,

Tony Hollick
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grizz
post May 24 2008, 01:15 PM
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Brilliant first post, Anduril! Welcome to the forum.

The crawl spaces never occurred to me, and I've never seen anyone write of them. But of course they must have been there, so that people could get in there to work on wiring, plumbing, etc. And it would have provided the perfect cover for planting the explosives to bring the buildings down.

That's one of the points that those who prefer to believe the government coverup use. 'How and when were the explosives planted?' I think you just found the answer.

Bravo!
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dMz
post May 24 2008, 02:02 PM
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Hi and welcome Anduril,

That is an interesting line of reasoning. Before the lurking "debunkers" descend on this thread like a pack of wild dogs, I'd like to clarify that the area between the ceiling tiles and the steel floor "pans" is properly called a "plenum."

http://www.answers.com/topic/plenum?cat=technology

"Architecture: plenum
1. In suspended ceiling construction, the space between the suspended ceiling and the main structure above.
2. A plenum chamber."


There are some interesting photos and information on the Wiki page for "dropped" or "suspended ceilings":

"Advantages

Fire Safety

If fire safety is a factor, ceiling tiles made from mineral fibres, or fire-rated wood panels can be used within the construction to meet acceptable standards/ratings. These same tiles can provide the needed additional resistance to meet the "time rating" required for various fire code, city ordinance, commercial, or other similar building construction regulations. Another advantage of a dropped ceiling is that the easily-removed ceiling panels offer instant access to the plenum, greatly simplifying repairs or alterations."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropped_ceiling

EDIT: On the "who" question, a Wiki page states:

"The colossal pile of debris left on the site burned for three months, resisting attempts to extinguish the blaze until the majority of the rubble was finally removed from the site.[66][67] The cleanup was a massive operation coordinated by the City of New York Department of Design and Construction (DDC).

On September 22, a preliminary cleanup plan was delivered by Controlled Demolition Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix. Mark Loizeaux, president of CDI, emphasized the importance of protecting the slurry wall (or "the bathtub") which kept the Hudson river from flooding the WTC's basement.[68] It involved round-the-clock operations, many contractors and sub-contractors, and cost hundreds of millions of dollars.[69] By early November, with a third of the debris removed, officials began to reduce the number of firefighters and police officers assigned to recovering the remains of victims, in order to prioritize the removal of debris. This caused confrontations with firefighters.[70] In 2007, the demolition of the surrounding damaged buildings was still ongoing, even as new construction proceeded on the World Trade Center's replacement, the Freedom Tower."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_t...er#Site_cleanup

I find it interesting that Gene Corley, ASCE, and FEMA were at the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, WTC, and the Pentagon for all 3 disaster "cleanups."

EDIT2: Apparently, that is Phoenix, MD, not Phoenix, AZ. Well this was interesting.
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/defau...=20030317124730

"Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building

As the initial rescue operations continued, General Services Administration, the owner of the Murrah Building, contacted Robert Hill, Vice President of the Dallas-based structural engineering firm, Brockette, Davis & Drake and Mark Loizeaux, President of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Maryland to evaluate the integrity of the structure and to identify the extent of demolition required for that portion of the structure which did not fail in the initial collapse. Robert Hill quickly determined that the main tower of the Murrah Building was damaged beyond repair and that the safest methodology for demolition of the damaged structure was implosion.

While final decisions concerning the demolition were being made, CDI was contracted by the GSA to salvage sensitive government paperwork from the building prior to demolition.

Granite was salvaged from undamaged portions of the building to later be used in a memorial for the victims of the bombing. Doug Loizeaux, Vice President of CDI, coordinated the operation and hired NADC member, Midwest Wrecking to assist with the salvage operations. Midwest Wrecking had been on site since the April 19th bombing, assisting with rescue operations. Ben Kates and David Densmore of Midwest Wrecking coordinated salvage operations with CDI.

Once the final determination was made to implode the building, CDI mobilized a crew to commence preparation activities. It was determined that the 3-story, underground parking lot located to the south of the structure, and literally touching the Murrah Building, was structurally sound and an attempt would be made to minimize damage to the adjacent garage.

Preparation operations for the implosion were more sophisticated than those required for a "normal implosion operation." When a structure is imploded, the contractor relies on the structural integrity of the building being demolished to assist in the control of the fall of the structure. In the case of the Murrah Building, the structural integrity of the building had been compromised by the terrorist blast, therefore, reconstructive operations had to be conducted to augment the structural integrity of the building in order to control its fall away from the adjacent parking garage.

CDI crews worked on a fast-track basis to prepare the structure for subsequent explosives placement. Less than 150 pounds of explosives placed in 420 locations was used to fell the structure.

At 7:00 am on Wednesday, May 24, 1995, the remains of the building that was the target of America's deadliest domestic terrorist attack crumbled neatly in seven (7) seconds. The results of the implosion surpassed expectations. The Murrah Building fell as planned, leaving the adjacent parking structure intact.

The implosion proved to be a catharsis for the American People who had watched the tragedy unfold since the bombing of April 19th. It was now a time to begin the healing process and start a new chapter for Oklahoma City.


This post has been edited by dMole: May 24 2008, 02:20 PM
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Anduril
post May 24 2008, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE (Oceans Flow @ May 24 2008, 05:15 PM) *
Brilliant first post, Anduril! Welcome to the forum.

The crawl spaces never occurred to me, and I've never seen anyone write of them. But of course they must have been there, so that people could get in there to work on wiring, plumbing, etc. And it would have provided the perfect cover for planting the explosives to bring the buildings down.

That's one of the points that those who prefer to believe the government coverup use. 'How and when were the explosives planted?' I think you just found the answer.

Bravo!


Well, thank you! That's a fine welcome! It gets better! >:-}


I should say first, that I utilize the Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes developed by Karl Popper and Imre Lakatos. There are good WIKI entries for them.

I followed their procedures to _strengthen_ the "Official Conspiracy Theory", partly because the consequences of doubting it were both depressing and frightening. I found that it was impossible to achieve this without accepting "six impossible things before breakfast."

With a problem-situation as ramified as 9/11, it's hard to know where to start.


As a Human Rights activist (amongst other things) I had spoken with the Chief Freedom of Information Act Officer at the Pentagon, to find out who had ordered the JAG officers to stand down from supervizing interrogations, and when. Military law requires the supervidsion of all interrogations by two JAG officers positioned behind one-way glass screens, so as to protect the detainee, protect the interrogator(s) from unjust accusations, and assure the quality of intelligence gathered. Photos of Abu Ghraib interrogation rooms clearly showed the screens had been boarded up. It is reasonable to conclude that those who ordered the JAG supervision to stand down _intended_ abusive practices to occur.

The FOIA officer replied by email to my enquiry, telling me my enquiry would yield vast numbers of documents, and needed to be more focused so as to get the information I wanted.

I thought carefully, then I telephoned him. It was June 3, 2004.

After discussing the JAG issue, we developed a rapport, and I asked him if he had Internet. He laughed, and said that he had 12 terminals. Together, we looked at the hi-res photos of Thierry Meissen's "Hunt the Boeing!" site. I chose this because the photos are identified by name as of US military origin. We discussed the photos and the issues for about half an hour. During this time, I could hear other keyboards being used. His office has access to the Pentagon mainframes (he's the man who blacks out the classified stuff you're not allowed to see). His former boss was killed there on 9/11, at the Pentagon.

He then said - with a voice like polished steel - "Tony; _there was no Boeing_"

And my world changed forever.

(Coincidentally, George Tenet and his "Counterterrorism" deputy announced their surprise resignations half an hour later).


I have to say that I share much of Webster Tarpley's analysis, whereby a few key upper echelon people can act or be suborned, and the entire government has to go into CYA mode.


Before we can address the issues of "Who did it?" I think we have to be much clearer on what actually happened. 9/11 was very thoroughly planned, with mines of false information and false leads. We saw this same thing in the "Strategy of Tension" in Italy.

The basic rule of false flag and other disinformation operations is that -- if you can keep your basic story in the forefront of the media for three clear days -- it doesn't matter what is said after that: everyone will remember the original story as the truth. But this was before the days of the Internet, video and personal computers.


My focus is on WTC and the Pentagon. Which plane flew where is much more complex, and dependent on contaminated information. That's where a lot of the misdirection is: they could have blown the skyscrapers and blamed it on (whoever). But most Americans fly; and to introduce the planes as an OBVIOUS cause of the destruction switches the blame to the "pilots", who -- since they are presumed to be dead, are beyond punishment or revenge. This builds a head of steam for foreign adventures; while the prospect of America's cities being destroyed by "suicide bombers" is scary enough to push through massive tranches of social control measures.

Deputy Attorney-General Viet Dinh had already written the PATRIOT Act at Ashcroft's "Department of Justice", where legal opinions amounting to "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards were being prepared for torturers and War Criminals. (I filed formal complaints with the FBI against Ashcroft for aiding and abetting breaches of the War Crimes Act [1996]: the response was [2006] legislation granting retroactive pardons for any member of the Executive convicted of War Crimes under the [1996] Act)... The Social Control freaks are smart.

(If anyone's interested, I describe my politics as "Goldwater Liberal.")


Regards,

Tony Hollick
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grizz
post May 24 2008, 05:04 PM
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Great second post too, Tony. Please, pull up a chair. Can I buy you a drink?
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amazed!
post May 24 2008, 09:46 PM
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Yeah Tony, I'd like to buy you one two. rolleyes.gif

Your story proves there is at least one good man in the Pentagon. My guess is way more than that, but I won't offer a number. whistle.gif

There's no way there was a Boeing there. Thanks for the fascinating information.
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dMz
post May 25 2008, 10:59 AM
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Hi Tony,

If you haven't heard it, you might want to listen to architect Richard Gage's March 14th radio interview where he mentions elevator shaft access that could be relevant to this thread:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10741807
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painter
post May 25 2008, 12:42 PM
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I agree, great first posts Andruil. Welcome to the forum. cheers.gif As to the 'how' vs ' who', I'm not clear from what you've written how familiar you are with the work P4T and CIT has alrdady done.
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Anduril
post May 25 2008, 07:19 PM
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Thank you all for such a warm welcome! Good to be with you!

I drink lemonade and lime... thumbsup.gif


I'm particularly keen on addressing significant unsolved problems (it's a test of my Research Programme) and I welcome your input. Any questions?

One of the less-mentioned aspects is the fire prevention and suppression system of the two towers. I remember reading that each tower had a 250,000 gallon water tank for the sprinkler system and local hoses. Yet discussions proceed without us learning what role these played.

Also: there is a huge unanswered question insofar as NONE of the 8 (?) giant turbofan engines, made of nearly indestructable materials have ever been found (or so we are told). Not only does each engine carry serial numbers: many of the _components_ carry serials, to enable repair and maintenance and upgrades. We make some of these engines here in Bristol, England, my home city. This impinges on the issue of which plane ended up where.

Regards,

Tony Hollick.

PS: I don't think that I recognize "P4T and CIT" Pilots for Truth?
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grizz
post May 26 2008, 05:23 AM
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aka Oceans Flow


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Apparently the FBI made no attempt to positively identify any of the 9/11 aircraft because there was never any doubt as to which planes they were. Meanwhile, it appears that as many as three of the flights in question did not depart on that date, according to airport records. That includes AA77, the 'plane' that 'hit' the Pentagon.

We've got plenty of unsolved problems for you to play with, Tony.

QUOTE
PS: I don't think that I recognize "P4T and CIT" Pilots for Truth?


Not sure what you mean, but P4T is Pilots for Truth and CIT is Citizen Investigation Team, another group of Pentagon and Shanksville researchers that is teamed with P4T. They do a different angle of research, largely focusing on eyewitnesses and other 'on the ground' work. Their findings and the things that the Pilots learn often reinforce each other, and some projects are a combined effort.
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Anduril
post May 26 2008, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (Oceans Flow @ May 26 2008, 10:23 AM) *
Apparently the FBI made no attempt to positively identify any of the 9/11 aircraft because there was never any doubt as to which planes they were. Meanwhile, it appears that as many as three of the flights in question did not depart on that date, according to airport records. That includes AA77, the 'plane' that 'hit' the Pentagon.

We've got plenty of unsolved problems for you to play with, Tony.




Not sure what you mean, but P4T is Pilots for Truth and CIT is Citizen Investigation Team, another group of Pentagon and Shanksville researchers that is teamed with P4T. They do a different angle of research, largely focusing on eyewitnesses and other 'on the ground' work. Their findings and the things that the Pilots learn often reinforce each other, and some projects are a combined effort.


"P4T is Pilots for Truth and CIT is Citizen Investigation Team" - I'm now clear on this. I always prefer to admit ignorance, rather than to miss out on learning something.

I'm not yet fully conversant with the topics and threading here, so I ask your indulgence while I learn.

If I can do so without it seeming pretentious, I'd like to give you some idea as to the areas where I "have extensive files", as the Terminator in T2 says. Unavoidably, this is going to make some of you distrustful; all I can say is that I've never been directly employed by any intelligence organization, nor do I act under anyone's direction or control.

On my living room wall are two signed 8 x 10 photos. One is of an SR-71 in USAF markings in serene high flight, signed for me personally by Richard M. Bissell, jr., who was Director, the War Shipping Agency in WWII, Chief Economist to the Marshall Plan and Deputy Director, Plans at CIA. The other is of Admiral Noel Gayler (bio follows).

It seems somehow appropriate to say this on Memorial Day.

At heart, I'm a North American. I have relatives lain to rest at Arlington.

(The following links aren't active yet -- I've changed the hosting to ACENET in Atlanta).

=============================================================================
From: Tony Hollick, | To: ADM Noel Gayler, USN (Ret.)
4, Grayling House, | 2111 Mason Hill Drive
Canford Road, | Alexandria,
Bristol BS9 3 NU, | Virginia 22306,
England. | United States of America
Telephone (0117)-9504914 | Telephone ****************
=============================================================================
Mailto:Anduril@STARGATE.uk.net
Mailto:Tony.Hollick@gmail.com
==============================================================================

Dear Admiral Gayler,

Again, thank you so much for speaking with me when I've telephoned
you from Bristol, England at your home in Alexandria over the last
couple of years. I really enjoy our conversations so much -- a
dream come true (for me, anyway!). Magic!!! >:-}

------------------- * * * * * ---------------

A word on methodology: my approach to problem-solving is
basically that of Karl Popper; and more particularly, Imre
Lakatos' proposals in his "The Methodology of Scientific Research
Programmes" (Cambridge, [1978]). These are among the most
powerful and effective instruments of intellectual weaponry I
know of. I sent you Bryan Magee's wonderful little book "Popper"
as a gift from me to you; and to 'repay forward' the work you've
done already for peace with freedom.


[ I have to admit to sometimes 'speaking through quotations': if
others say what I want said, better than I can say it, 'let them fly'! ]

------------------- * * * * * ---------------

I *don't* start from the problems of the _specific means of
warfare, important though these are (especially nuclear weapons).
With Heisenberg, I don't think these are the basic -- or even the
worst -- problem: My primary concern is with 'The Causes of War'
(see Geoffrey Blainey's classic academic text of this name, publ.
Sun Books, Melbourne). Blainey's view (following analysis of
several hundred wars from 1700 to 1971) amounts to the conclusion
that wars arise as a result of faulty intelligence evaluations of
one's own or the other side's interests, aims, strengths and will
to fight; wars "usually begin when two [or more] nations disagree
on their relative strength, and wars usually cease when the
fighting nations agree on their relative strength."


And I think the problems of disarmament can actually be more
readily resolved long-term by something like the twelve-track
strategy I outline here, with the tracks running separately yet
simultaneously, more or less in parallel (an Integrated
Operational Plan for worldwide peace with freedom, if you like!).


Such a plan incorporates specific advances to general nuclear
disarmament, while (hopefully) avoiding the dangers of open-ended
non-nuclear warfare. Its central focus is upon what we're
fighting for -- and against -- and the means by which we fight;
and upon the human and material costs.


Still, there are indeed 'no final moves'!

----------- * * * * * -----------

Prefacing remark: "William Hood on war"

TEXT: "Like war, spying is a dirty business. Shed of its alleged glory, a
soldier's job is to kill. Peel away the claptrap of espionage
and the spy's job is to betray trust. The only justification a
soldier or a spy can have is the moral worth of the cause he represents."

William Hood was deputy to James Jesus Angleton, legendary Director
of CIA counterintelligence; 'Mole' p. 11; publ. Weidenfeld's [1982].
I've discussed various problems with William Hood very recently.

He's contactable via the AFIO. I've chatted with him a number of times.

----------- * * * * * -----------


[TRACK ONE] 'Values as the expression of the central order'

TEXT: 'The problem of values is nothing but the problems of our acts,
goals and morals. It concerns the compass by which we must
steer our ship if we are to set a true course through life. The
compass itself has been given different names by various
religions and philosophies ... but I have a clear impression
that all such formulations try to express man's relatedness to a
central order. In the final analysis the central order, or the
'One' as it used to be called with which we commune in the
language of religion, must win out....

If we ask Western man what is good, what is worth striving for
and what has to be rejected, we shall find time and again, that
his answers reflect the ethical norms of Christianity even when
he has long since lost all touch with Christian images and
parables. If the magnetic force which has guided this particular
compass - and what else was its source but the central order? -
should ever become extinguished, _terrible_ things may happen to
mankind, far more terrible even than concentration camps and
atom bombs.'

Werner Heisenberg, [1971] 'Physics and beyond: encounters and
conversations', published by George Allen and Unwin, London.


Thorpe is emphatic in asserting that we must never forget that
such a conclusion must on no account be attributed solely to the
Western insights stemming from the Christian revelation; he gives
the following Admonitions as a further example, drawn from the
Amerindian tribe of the Shawnees (who were dispossessed of their
Oklahoma lands in 1839).


The Shawnee Admonitions:
-----------------------

TEXT: (A) "Do not kill or injure your neigbour, for it is not him you
injure, you injure yourself."

(B) "Do not wrong or hate your neighbour, for it is not him that you
wrong, you wrong yourself. Moneto, the Supreme Being.
loves him also as she loves you."

Quoted from W.H. Thorpe, 'Purpose in a World of Chance: A
Biologist's View' [1978], George, Allen and Unwin.


This is clearly related via the central order to the (negative)
Judaic injunction not to do unto one's neighbour that which one
would not wish to befall one's self. My own -- perhaps agnostic
-- orientation is nearer Taoism [and Greek mythology]; but these
ethical principles are capable of reformulation for most spiritual
-- and even humanistic or 'moral atheistic' -- contexts.

----------- * * * * * -----------


[TRACK TWO] "The Role of the Sciences"

TEXT: I am constantly reminded of the role of the Newtonian
foundations in Kantian ethics. I do think that the
near-destruction of 'Classical Physics' was a tragedy that broke
the self-confident -- Kantian -- foundations of 19th Century
liberal optimism and rational expectations of a better future,
and further opened the door to the barbarism of Prussian
militarism, aggressive racial nationalism, Marxism and National
Socialism in the 20th Century.

I've spent much of the last 10 years working on a Scientific
Research Programme which is founded on an extended Classical
Mechanics, which replaces Special Relativity and General
Relativity and Quantum Mechanics with an intelligible and accurate
integrated Scientific Research Programme -- Relational Dynamics
-- which can be stated on a sheet or two of A4 paper. Here's the
'Core Programme' of Relational Dynamics: There's an accompanying
120K file which closely argues for the programme on a positive
'balance-sheet' heuristic of clarity, simplicity and accuracy in
description, explanation and prediction. 'Physics demystified!'

>:-}


The latest Revision of 'Relational Dynamics' is available from:

http://www.STARGATE.uk.net/dynamics.txt

=========================================================================
TITLE: A Scientific Research Programme of Relational Dynamics -- [T3]
=========================================================================
TEXT: The basis of Relational Dynamics is the single principle, that
the laws of physics have the same form in all frames of reference in
uniform translation, and are the same everywhere. It extends Classical
Mechanics into the realms presently occupied by Special and General
Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

Dimensional Analysis of Measure Ratios: Mass = M. Length = L. Time = T.

[1] MATTER IN INFINITE SPACE: Material objects having extension exist
in a space which is without intrinsic properties, and which exists to
infinity in every direction.

[2] UNIFORM TIME WITH UNIVERSAL SIMULTANEITY: The elapsing of time is
uniform and unidirectionally forward, with an instantaneous present
time which occurs at the same moment -- simultaneously -- everywhere.
Signal intervals can be recalculated to achieve corrected accurate
predictive and retrodictive data.

[3] EQUIVALENT GALILEAN RELATIVITY: All forces, material coordinate
positions and velocities are relational; and all co-ordinate systems
or frames of reference in uniform motion relative to one another are
Galileian systems. There is no privileged or "absolute" reference
frame. There is full addition of velocities across co-ordinate
systems or reference frames.


[4] GENERALIZATION OF THE LAWS OF MECHANICS: All the laws of
mechanics have the same form in every inertial frame of reference or
coordinate system.

[5] CLASSICAL MECHANICS: INERTIA: The stasis or movement of anything does not
change unless and until a force acts upon it.

[6] CLASSICAL MECHANICS: ACTION: A change in movement of anything is
proportional to the force acting upon it, and is made in the direction
of the force which acts upon it. (f = ma = ML/T^2; Force = mass times
acceleration).

[7] CLASSICAL MECHANICS: REACTION: For every action, there is an equal
reaction in the opposite direction. (f1 = -f2).

[8] RELATIONAL GRAVITATIONAL FORCE: The relational gravitational
attraction between massy objects is proportional to their
masses, and is proportional to the inverse square of the distance
between their centres of mass. If gravitational force should prove
to be propagated at a finite rate, and objects be moving radially
relative to each other, then the additional velocity-dependent
modification for propagated spherical forces, Woldemar
Voight's [1887] Doppler equations (later known as "Lorentz
Transformations") would be required, as a first approximation to
non-linear equations for delayed interaction over a distance.

[9] RELATIONAL ELECTRIC FORCE: The relational electric attraction or
repulsion between charged objects is inverse-square proportional to
the distance between them. If electric force proves to be propagated
at a finite rate, and objects be moving relative to each other, then
the additional velocity-dependent modification for propagated
spherical forces, Woldemar Voight's [1887] Doppler equations (later
known as "Lorentz Transformations") is required, as a first
approximation to non-linear equations for delayed interaction over a
distance.

Coulomb's Law and Voight's equations yield Maxwell's equations
without further assumptions, as proved by Leigh Page, Yale Professor
of Mathematical Physics [1912] and [1913]. Electrodynamics is fully
deriveable form electrostatics via Classical Mechanics.

A. O'Rahilly, "Electromagnetics", Longmans & U. Cork, [1938] & Dover
[1965]

R.A. Waldron, "The Wave and Ballistic Theories of Light", F. Muller,
[1977]

R.A. Waldron, "Electric Forces", The Radio and Electronic Engineer,
Vol. 51 No. 11/12, pp. 553 to 560, November/December [1981].

Leigh Page, Yale University, [1912] and [1913].

[10] RELATIONAL MAGNETIC FORCE: The relational magnetic attraction or
repulsion between north and south magnets is inverse-square
proportional to the distance between them. If magnetic force proves
to be propagated at a finite rate, and objects be moving radially
relative to each other, then the additional velocity-dependent
modification for propagated spherical forces, Woldemar Voight's [1887]
equations (later known as "Lorentz Transformations") would be
required, as a first approximation to non-linear equations for delayed
interaction over a distance.

The [static] lines of magnetic force follow from the force
interactions described by Poisson's equations.

A. O'Rahilly, "Electromagnetics", Longmans & U. Cork, [1938] Dover [1965]


R.A. Waldron, "The Wave and Ballistic Theories of Light", F. Muller [1977]


R.A. Waldron, "Electric Forces", The Radio and Electronic Engineer,
Vol. 51 No. 11/12, pp. 553 to 560, November/December [1981].

[11] QUANTIZED MASS AND ENERGY VALUE OF ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION:
Electromagnetic structures which are radiated and absorbed
('photons') have intrinsic mass, and this mass occurs in in multiples
of a minimum mass. This mass, when in linear translation and with up
to three axes of classical rotation, ('spins') as well as three
degrees of vibration, gives rise to quantum effects. Such
electromagnetic structures ('photons') are made from the same material
as other forms of matter - negatively charged microparticles (which we
can call electrinos); positively-charged microparticles, (which we may
call positrinos). There are also neutral (perhaps bound pair)
microparticles, (presently called neutrinos).

In free space the velocity of emittance of a radiated photon
_relative to its source_ is constant at L/T = 299,792.485 + or -
.0012 km/second. 'c'.

E = hv, where E is the energy value of the photon; v is its
frequency; and h is Planck's constant, which has the measure-ratio of
ML^2/T, and is presently calculated as 6.6262 x 10^-34 Joules/second.

There is accordingly a lower as well as an upper limit to photon
mass. Relevant equations may be found in R.A. Waldron, [1977] and
[1982].

These quantized electromagnetic structures, in conjunction with
Beckmann's [1987] theory of stable electron orbits, provide the basis for
developing the quantized dynamics of particle systems, including
atoms and molecules. (See the Carr-Parrinello method).

R.A. Waldron, "The Wave and Ballistic Theories of Light", F. Muller [1977]


R.A. Waldron, "The Spinning Photon", Speculations in Science and
Technology, Elsevier Sequoia S.A., 5 April 1982.

P. Beckmann, "Einstein plus Two", Golem Press [1987].

[12] CONSERVATION LAWS: There is full conservation of mass; full
conservation of energy over time; and full conservation of momentum.

Mass is invariant with respect to relative velocities, as are also
Length and Time.

==========================================================================
[ Copyright Anthony Hugh Hollick, Bristol, England. February 28 [1995] ]
==========================================================================


It may assist understanding to think about RD like this:

[A] Take Classical Mechanics: (Start with T.W.B. Kibble's fine text):
[B] Add relational electric and magnetic and gravitational forces:
[C] Add a velocity of force propagation ('c'), which delays far-action:
[D] Add a full ballistic ('particle' or 'photon') theory of EM radiation.

"Classical Mechanics is everywhere exatly 'right' wherever its
concepts can be applied." -- Werner Heisenberg.

(That is, everywhere).

----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK THREE]: "The Role of Philosopy in the Furtherance of Open Societies"

Popper's "The Open Society and Its Enemies" is a basic text, as
is his [1994] "The Myth Of the Framework." Tarski's
Correspondence theory of truth is central; and Lakatos and
Musgrave [1976] is also 'essential reading', as is John Hospers'
fine book 'Human Conduct.' And even David Carradine's fine book
'The Spirit of Shaolin' <smiles>.

[1997: And Immannuel Kant, 'Was ist Aufklarung?']: "Dare to use
your own intelligence! This is the maxim of the Enlightenment."

----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK FOUR] "The Role of the Arts"

TEXT: "They were wrong, and they will always be wrong, those prophets
who say Art will degenerate, will exhaust all conceivable
forms, will die. It is we who will die; Art will remain. And
shall we -- before we perish -- manage to understand all its
facets and all its purposes?

Not everything has a name. Some things lead us into a realm
beyond words. Art thaws even the frozen, darkened soul, opening
it to lofty spiritual experience. Through Art we are sometimes
sent -- indistinctly, briefly -- revelations not to be achieved
by rational thought.

It is like that small mirror in the fairy-tales -- you glance in
it, and what you see is not yourself: for an instant, you glimpse
the Inaccessible, where no horse or magic carpet can take you.

And the soul cries out for it..."


From 'One Word of Truth...' -- The Nobel Speech on Literature; by
Alexander Solzhenitsyn: BBC External Services Translation, Publ.
The Bodley Head [1972]


http://www.STARGATE.uk.net/nobel.txt


The brilliant American actress Dorothy Jean Seberg, from
Marshalltown, Iowa -- (see her in incomparable performances, in
Otto Preminger's 'St. Joan', where -- as a 17-year-old girl -- she
was chosen from 10 000 to play Joan of Arc; and in Robert Rossen's
magnificent film 'Lilith') -- was hideously and protractedly killed
as a direct consequence of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover's
malicious actions against her.

Hoover circulated vicious press stories including one that the
baby she was expecting was of mixed race, and he imposed
unbearable pressures on her. She miscarried, and subsequently
tried to kill herself on each anniversity of her lost baby's
death. She was later found dead in Paris, her body stuffed into a
car trunk by the side of the road).

David Richards' biography of Dorothy Jean Seberg is titled 'Played Out.'


And radical actress Frances Farmer's horrifying autobiography,
"Will There Really Be A Morning?" (filmed as 'Frances' with
Jessica Lange. [1983]) is a truly terrifying public warning of the
perils and consequences of coercive psychiatry. We _cannot_ allow
such terrorist acts to be committed against people anymore.

And Richard C. Sarafian's magnificent movie "Vanishing Point" [1971].

"Fasten your safety belts. You've never had a trip like this before."

----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK FIVE] : "Realizing Human Potential"

TEXT: I'm working intermittently on a -- shareware -- personal
computer multimedia programme which offers some of the benefits
of the Human Potential methods, inexpensively, on a more
widespread basis. There is quite a lot of interest in such
technologies nowadays. The work of LTC Jim Channon's 'First
Earth Battalion Foundation' is also well worth a look; as is the
generality of work done on the realization of Human Potential
described in Pearson & Shaw's book "Life Extension -- A
Practical Scientific Approach"; and "MegaBrain" by Michael
Hutchison. And the Silva Method.



----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK SIX] 'Democratic Agorism' -- a social and political program

TEXT: Over the years, I've developed a straightforward political and
social programme -- 'Democratic Agorism' -- which aims to
provide both assessment benchmarks as well as practical measures
to achieve more fully free and open societies worldwide. And
Open Societies don't war with each other...

Latest revisions of the 'Democratic Agorism' program available from:

http://www.STARGATE.uk.net/agora5.txt

The essential elements of Demopcratic Agorism are modular _and_ synergistic:

They include:

[A] A contractually-based day-by-day electoral system - Vectored Politics
[B] Full-Liability Personal Indemnity Insurance, enabling full restitution.
[C] Personal Radio Alarms: for event-driven and customer-driven policing
[D] A Restitutive Legal System, with online 'courts' and arbitration.
[E] Good Basic Income Provision for all -- independent incomes for all.
[F] Networked information services and library facilities
[G] National Health Insurance chargecard and online diagnostic facilities
[H] Online education and skills-development facilities
[I] Tradenet buy/sell/swap/finance/work transaction services
[J] Packaged 'political' services provided via elected representatives


When all children (indeed, all of us) have [item C) these
inexpensive self-activated radio 'panic' alarms (like Search and
Rescue Alarms), they will be greatly more secure from all kinds of
harm. I have given this idea to Motorola Corporation.


----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK SEVEN] "Wars of Ideas -- Wars on Ideas"

TEXT: As Popper says ("The Myth Of The Framework"), civilization
really go going with the invention of swords. Civilized and
intelligent men and women then saw that fighting with words
makes better sense, with _bad ideas_ dying instead of _people_.

So, I support wars of ideas waged on behalf of the ideas of the
Open Society, backed with:

Triple-track diplomacy -- (positive, negative and covert-action);

Psychological warfare (viz. Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger's
classic text of that name: did you ever meet him?); and Information
Warfare ('C4ISR' -- Command, Control, Communications, Countermeasures,
Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance).


Special Forces (viz. "Swords of Lightning: The Changing Face of
Warfare" by Terry White; publ. Brassey's, [1992]; 'Special Forces
of the World.' An excellent overview).

Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups. "Fly Navy!"

'Antiweaponry' Defences (Precision-Guided Munitions, conventional
antiballistic missile systems -- viz. the _original_ "High
Frontier" ideas in Dan Graham's Heritage Foundation Project Book
of that name [1982], not the hyped-up SDI stuff that squandered
the money and the political support which could have actually
_built_ High Frontier's Layered Defense proposals.


I would ask you to please consider the "High Frontier" proposals
independently of your experience of the late Dan Graham: I was
impressed by the way he welcomed a visiting Soviet journalist to a
High Frontier presentation in London which I attended, and he
emphasised how the US and the USSR could work together to block
nuclear attack. "We want live Americans, not dead Russians."



Some of our MoD and conservative people were averse to Strategic
Defense ideas because they feared the nullification of Britain's
'independent deterrent': yet our Trident systems rely on
American know-how for accuracy; and I'll not soon forget my Royal
Navy friend Peter McManus -- later a 'Top Gun' air combat trainer
'on loan' to the Central Flying School, RAF Valley in the late
'Sixties -- telling me of the terse reply they were given at
their fighter-bomber mission briefing, when someone asked how
they were supposed to get 'back home' again, when the nuclear
targets were at the fighter-bombers' limits of range:

"What the Hell do you think there will be to come 'home' to"?


The aim of the Twelve Track Operational Plan should be
to fight and win the war of ideas *peacefully* for the Open
Societies, wherever practicable transforming enemies into friends.

----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK EIGHT] "Horizontal Spontanous Social Orders"

TEXT: My preference is for the sorts of damage-resistant, adaptive
and resilient 'horizontal' free and equalitarian social orders
envisioned by (most of) the Lockean founders of the American
Republic. (If a quiet patriotism is the love of the _idea_ of a
country, I'm certainly a North American!).

------------------- * * * * * ---------------

[TRACK NINE] "Globalized Free Communications Networks"

Lots of Internets, with lots of alternative data-radio and
telecomms providers! Cheap or free powerful and secure personal
computers. Spontaneous orders then form from the free choices
made by the individual telecommunicators. David Andrews'
excellent book "The IRG Solution: Hierarchical Incompetence and
How To Overcome It" (Souvenir Press, [1984]) gives good insights
into these social processes and their internal dynamics.


----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK TEN] "The Role Of History".

TEXT: In 1944, Nash-Kelvinator Corporation ran this magazine
advertisement, showing a grim pilot, about to take on Zeros at
twelve o'clock, imagining this staccato message to his partner:-

"I want to tell you what I'm fighting for.. It's you and our
little house and the job I had before... and the chance I had,
the fighting chance, to go ahead on my own. That's what all of
us want out here... to win this war... to get home... To go back
to living our lives in a land -- and a world -- where *every* man
is free to grow as great as he's a mind to be... where *every*
man has an *unlimited* opportunity to be useful to himself and
his fellow men ...

"Tell 'em we'll be back... Nothing can stop us... And tell 'em
no matter what they say, no matter what they do... to stay
*free*... To keep America a land of *individual freedom*!


_That's_ what we're fighting for...

_That's_ what we're willing to die for...

_That's_ the America we want when we come home."



"We had better figure out what happened if we expect _any_ army,
conscript or volunteer, even to _remember_ what it's fighting for."

- Michael Levin

----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK ELEVEN] "WildFire Systems"

TEXT: By "WildFire Systems" I mean self-propagating, decentralized,
'synergistic' and practical instantiations of free social
innovations, which replace existing unjust and inefficient
"verticalist" social practices with better, more mutually advantageous
"horizontalist" relationships; e.g.

[a] Offices of Open Network (like Leif Smith's and Pat Wagner's in
Colorado - I have a copy of their interesting 60pp Operating
Manual).

http://www.pattern.com

[b] Information Exchanges


[c] Credit Unions (like Grameen MicroBank and North American CUs)


[d] Local Exchange Trading Systems -- LETS -- (to 'kickstart'
economic activity where people have little or no money).
Start-up books are available.


[e] WishCraft Centres: Non-injurious 'wishes' are described on record
cards or computer record entries in this simple format:

TITLE: <five or six word summary>;

WISH: 50 to 100 word comprehensive description;

CONTACT: preferred contact method or address

Participants then work to realize the wishes for each other. Fun!


[f] Mondragon-style Worker Co-Operatives, which show twice the return
on capital of investor-owned businesses.

----------- * * * * * -----------

[TRACK TWELVE] "The Role Of Mythologies"

TEXT: Science fiction has been aptly described as 'The Mythology of
the 20th (and 21st) Century. Foremost among my favourites are
J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings' (in which coercion is the
main evil, and individual free will is the foundation of the
principal virtues). And Cordwainer Smith's incomparable stories
(Dr. Paul Linebarger's nom de plume);

And the STAR WARS Trilogy;

And 'STAR TREK - The Movie.' >:-}

And the wonderful STARGATE series.

And of course the mythologies of (inter alia) Classical Greece and
the Celts and China...

----------- * * * * * -----------


I hope you find these ideas worthy of your consideration and further
discussion and development; I'm really looking forward to hearing
from you! I'm entirely happy for you to discuss all this with
others if you think it's worthwhile. I have no secrets from the
Puzzle Palace!! <smile> How could I ?? <lots of smiles>


All Best Wishes to Kay and yourself,

We Shall Overcome



Tony Hollick
============

Anduril@cix.compulink.co.uk


------------------- * * * * * ---------------

| Anduril@STARGATE.uk.net * http://www.STARGATE.uk.net |
- <*> -------------------------- * * * * -------------------------- <*> -
| Rainbow Bridge Foundation * * * Centre for Liberal Studies |
- <*> -------------------------- * * * * -------------------------- <*> -
| 4 Grayling House, Canford Rd: * Bristol BS9 3NU Tel: 9504914 |

"Freedom means doing whatever you damn well please, without harming others."

-- Barry M. Goldwater

------------------- * * * * * ---------------

POSTSCRIPT ONE:

"... seen as the result of human endeavour, of human dreams,
hopes, passions, and most of all, as the result of the most
admirable union of creative imagination and rational critical
thought, I should like to write 'Science' with the biggest capital
'S' to be found in the printer's upper case.


Science is not only like art and literature, an adventure of the human
spirit, but it is among the creative arts perhaps the most human:
full of human failings and shortsightedness, it shows those
flashes of insight which open our eyes to the wonders of the world
and of the human spirit. But this is not all. Science is the
direct result of that most human of all human endeavours - to
liberate ourselves. It is part of our endeavour to see more
clearly, to understand the world and ourselves, and to act as
adult, responsible and enlightened beings.

'Enlightenment', Kant wrote, 'is the emancipation of man from
self-imposed tutelage . . . from a state of incapacity to use
his own intelligence without external guidance. Such a state
of tutelage I call "self-imposed" if it is due not to any lack
of intelligence but the lack of courage or determination to use
one's own intelligence instead of relying upon a leader.
*Sapere Aude!* Dare to use your own intelligence! This is the
maxim of the Enlightenment.' [ref. 6, Immanuel Kant, 'Was ist
Aufklarung?']


Kant challenges us to use our intelligence instead of relying upon a
leader, upon an authority. This should be taken as a challenge to
reject even the scientific expert as a leader, or even *science
itself* Science has no authority. It is not the magical product
of the given, the data, the observations. It is not a gospel of
truth. It is the result of our own endeavours and mistakes. It is
you and I who make science, as well as we can. It is you and I who
are responsible for it...


The nuclear bomb (and possibly also the so-called 'peaceful use of
atomic energy' whose consequences may be even worse in the long
run) have, I think, shown us the shallowness of the worship of
science as an 'instrument' of our 'command over nature' or the
'control of our physical environment': it has shown us that this
command, this control, is apt to be self-defeating, and apt to
enslave us rather than to make us free - if it does not do away
with us altogether.


And while knowledge is worth dying for, power is not. (Knowledge
is one of the few things that are worth dying for, together with
liberty, love, kindness, and helping those who are in need of help)."


by Karl R. Popper

from "Realism and the Aim of Science"

Volume I of "The Postscript to The Logic of Scientific Discovery"

Edited by William Warren Bartley, III, Senior Fellow, the Hoover
Institution on War, Revolution and Peace at Stanford.

Publ. Hutchinson, 1983, pb. 1985

Copyright Karl Raimund Popper 1956, 1983


Sir Karl Popper, F. R. S., held fourteen honorary Doctorates from
American, British, German, Austrian, New Zealand and Canadian
universites.

He was a member (or honorary member) of twelve academies, among them
the three oldest that still exist.

Works of his have been translated into over 30 languages.


But Sir Karl was never impressed by 'great reputations', least of
all his own...

------------------- * * * * * ---------------

POSTSCRIPT TWO:


Biographical note: Admiral Noel A. M. Gayler, USN (Ret).
========================================================

Born December 25, 1914, in Birmingham, Alabama, United States of America.

1931-1935 U.S. Naval Academy.

1935 Commissioned Ensign, USN.

1940 Flight Training course.

1940 Naval aviator, assigned to VF-12 Squadron, USS Randolph, flying Grumman
F-6F Hellcats from Navy carriers. Awarded three Navy Crosses.

Served in the Pacific Theatre during WWII. Asst. to Admiral John M. Cain.

1957 Aide to Navy Secretary Thomas S. Gates.

1960 Aug:- Commanding Officer, CV-61 USS Ranger (Aircraft Carrier).

1960 Rear Admiral.

1962-1963 Commander, Carrier Division TWENTY, US Atlantic Fleet.

1963-1965 Director, Development Programmes, Office of Chief Naval Officer.

1965-1967 Assistant Deputy Chief, Naval Operations (Development).

1967-1969 Deputy Director, Joint Strategic Planning Staff, Offut AFB.

(Designer, the Single Integrated Operational Plan -- SIOP).

1969-1972 Director, National Security Agency (DIRNSA).

1969-1972 Chief, Central Security Agency. (CCSA).

1972-1976 Commander-in-Chief Pacific Fleet and Armed Forces (CinCPAC).

* Retired as 4-star Admiral. (Would have been five stars if the US had
formally declared the Vietnam conflict a war, which in fact it was).

* Awarded:- Three Navy Crosses; Bronze Star Medal; Distinguished Service
Medal; Legion of Merit with Gold Star; Sperry Award of the Institute
of Aeronautical Sciences; other medals and awards.

* Committee Member (with George Kennan>:

* American Committee On East-West Accord

* He has contributed to: "The Choice: Nuclear Weapons versus Security"
edited by Gwyn Prins, Cambridge, [1984]

[Ch: 2] "A Commander-in-Chief's Perspective on Nuclear Weapons."

[Ch: 16] "The Way Out: A General Nuclear Settlement."
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Anduril
post May 27 2008, 10:10 AM
Post #12





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One of the really good things about the present "networked" pattern of 9/11 is its decentralized structure. No-one can shut it down. In every country on Earth, people are working on these problems and communicating their results. Every intelligence agency and government in the world wants to know what happened, and what they have to deal with.

It is, in my view, a mistake to demand a further Government enquiry, as if this will resolve everything. The Warren Commission was supposed to do this WRT the JFK assassination. Texas Attorney-General Waggoner Carr, in sworn testimony, provided evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald was an FBI employee at the time; and he provided Oswald's personnel number and salary details. (The first the public heard about this was in Gerald Ford's memoirs).

Did the Warren Commission conclude that JFK was shot by an FBI employee? Well, no they didn't. They did find that Oswald "acted alone" (J. Edgar Hoover wrote a letter stating this the day after the assassination: but how could he know?)

Carr's testimony caused great agitation within the Inquiry. Lofty persons were afraid the sky would fall if this got out. So it didn't appear at all in the final report.



The repercussions across the world in the event of a government committee finding that the Official Conspiracy Theory is grossly mistaken are incalculable. The effects on Wall Street (20% owned by the Saudis now) are incalculable. Inevitably, there will be two polarized factions in the country -- those who accept that 9/11 was a cruel hoax, and those who simply cannot bring themselves to accept that. There could be fighting.


Nixon won re-election as a Vietnam hard-liner AFTER he and Kissinger had agreed to sell the South out. As Frank Snepp relates, this was duly put into effect, with the South to fall after a "decent interval." Yet in his [1988] memoirs, General Giap tells us that the Hanoi Politbureau were amazed, because they thought that America was _winning_ the war. Kissinger was investigated as a possible Soviet 'mole' by CIA Counterintelligence, on the basis of NSA intercepts.


One possible limited-hangout "escape route" is for it to be "discovered" that Bin Laden's people "really" planted the explosives. After all, the Bin Laden family business is the largest construction and demolition business in the Middle East, with ample in-house capabilities for planning, explosives procurement and placement. I expect us to start hearing more of this story as the number of people rejecting the Official Story grows.

Regards,

Tony
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painter
post May 27 2008, 11:14 AM
Post #13


∞* M E R C U R I A L *∞


Group: Respected Member
Posts: 5,870
Joined: 25-August 06
From: SFO
Member No.: 16



QUOTE (Anduril @ May 27 2008, 07:10 AM) *
One possible limited-hangout "escape route" is for it to be "discovered" that Bin Laden's people "really" planted the explosives. After all, the Bin Laden family business is the largest construction and demolition business in the Middle East, with ample in-house capabilities for planning, explosives procurement and placement. I expect us to start hearing more of this story as the number of people rejecting the Official Story grows.


I appreciate your skepticism regarding a new inquiry. History certainly doesn't hold out much promise does it? One wonders what might be an acceptable alternative?

However, in so far as the limited-hangout you allude to above, I don't think that is going to 'fly' -- especially in regards to Building 7, given its list of tenants. Likewise, we have a faked FDR for Flight 77 at the Pentagon with an assumed chain of custody through the FBI. Doesn't look too good.
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Anduril
post May 27 2008, 02:05 PM
Post #14





Group: Private Forum Pilot
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QUOTE (painter @ May 27 2008, 04:14 PM) *
I appreciate your skepticism regarding a new inquiry. History certainly doesn't hold out much promise does it? One wonders what might be an acceptable alternative?

However, in so far as the limited-hangout you allude to above, I don't think that is going to 'fly' -- especially in regards to Building 7, given its list of tenants. Likewise, we have a faked FDR for Flight 77 at the Pentagon with an assumed chain of custody through the FBI. Doesn't look too good.


The "acceptable alternative" is simply a matter of time. More and more people come to disbelieve in the Official Conspiracy Theory (most people in Europe and Asia do), while more and more people come to understand the alternative viewpoints. The predominating view steadily changes.

A good comparison is with the view that the Earth circles the Sun.

Contrary to official propaganda, this view did not originate with Copernicus or Galileo.

Circa 1440, Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa proposed that the Sun was just another star, with the Earth orbiting around it. Furthermore, he proposed that other stars had planets, some of them like ours; and that some of these Earth-type planets had living beings, some of them very like ourselves. He had no trouble with the Church, not because he was a Cardinal but because he was not advocating heliocentrism, which the Church held to be equivalent to Mithraism.

It took several centuries for this idea to catch on, via Copernicus, Bruno and Galileo (amongst others). Those were days of rigid social control, poor communications and a lack of willingness of people to use their own intelligence. The Enlightenment changed all that. Now, very few people believe thet the Earth is at the centre of the Universe.

Now, we have worldwide communications, many more technically and scientifically knowledgeable people, and much better scientific methodologies. We have lots of people gifted in presenting information and ideas (and we could always use more).

The situation in the US is complicated by the fact that the events of 9/11 coincided with a form of coup d'etat, and a hijacking of the social agenda. I think it's fair to say that this limited coup d'etat has failed in legitimizing itself, and consolidating its position. All government is opinion, and the ruling clique and its policies are seen as having failed. Their power weakens.

The greatest single danger is that they may attempt another 9/11 of some kind prior to the Election. A project well worth while is to develop ways to pre-empt this and thus make it unviable. This may have already happened, BTW. In discussions with US military folk, I try to emphasize the "preserving the Constitution from enemies within and without" obligation. As General Tommy Franks said, "Another 9/11 and you can kiss the Congress and half the Bill of Rights goodbye." Both Cheney and Ashcroft made barely-concealed threats of another one.

Regards,

Tony
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grizz
post May 27 2008, 04:37 PM
Post #15


aka Oceans Flow


Group: Respected Member
Posts: 3,211
Joined: 19-October 06
From: Oregon
Member No.: 108



painter:

QUOTE
I appreciate your skepticism regarding a new inquiry. History certainly doesn't hold out much promise does it? One wonders what might be an acceptable alternative?


Things are going to be happening so fast in the near future that the idea of a real investigation is increasingly unrealistic. Personally, I've never bothered to hope for such a thing. I think we can only win in the court of public opinion. The truth about 9/11 must become generational history, if not official history.

Nobody knows how the world is going to turn out. It could become the bleak totalitarian future of a reduced, chipped and mindcontrolled population of slaves that the elites want. On the other hand, we outnumber them a million to one, and the psychopaths 20 to 1, so maybe the people can take over and the Post-2012 Dreamworld can ensue. Maybe The Lord will come back with his Host of Angels. Maybe (and more likely imo) it will be something in between all that.

There will be a massive shakedown over the next few years, touching every soul on Earth. Uncountable millions will die. What our lives will be like a decade from now is impossible to picture.

We just need to remember the forgotten 9/11 slogan: Never Forget
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Ricochet
post May 27 2008, 07:26 PM
Post #16





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QUOTE
There will be a massive shakedown over the next few years, touching every soul on Earth. Uncountable millions will die. What our lives will be like a decade from now is impossible to picture.

absent some catastrophic catalyzing event –like a new (Pearl Harbor)Sepetember 11, 2001. Then and only then will the rest join us. It will never be too late to rise up against tyranny. It is far worse than a single act of terrorism. Terrorism can kill thousands, tyranny can enslave billions. Never lose the fighting spirit that is within us. We signed on to fight damn it, don't let the bastards grind us down. Like Oceeans Flow said" NEVER FORGET"
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Anduril
post May 29 2008, 03:42 PM
Post #17





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Here's a definitive statement concerning sprinkler systems at the twin towers:

"The 1968 New York City building codes did not require sprinklers for high-rise buildings, except for underground spaces. In accordance with building codes, sprinklers were originally installed only in the underground parking structures of the World Trade Center.[72] Following a major fire in February 1975, the Port Authority decided to start installing sprinklers throughout the buildings. By 1993, nearly all of Tower 2 [South Tower] and 85 percent of Tower 1 had sprinklers installed,[73] and the entire complex was retrofitted by 2001.[74]"

AFAICR [74] is a reference to a NIST paper. Where is Terry Losonsky??


This from the Wiki article on the construction of the towers (which also has a diagram of the underfloor configuration -- perfectly adaptaptable as a crawl space. Hat tip to Leslie Landry's excellent paper for including this information also. Invaluable!

The Wiki article does not mention the location of the 250,000 gallon sprinkler water reservoirs.

According to my recollection, these were placed at the _top_ of the buildings, to overcome the problems of ultra-high-pressure hoses and the upward supply being damaged. The reservoirs were pre-filled. Very odd, that no-one mentions the sprinkler systems coming on. Another "dog that didn't bark"?

May I just say that P4T is a really classy venue. I just wish I'd discovered it earlier. My piloting skills are limited to building and flying one of the UK's first Rogallo-wing hang-gliders (in 1973); radio-controlled models; hundreds of hours on simulators (including Aerofly Professional); many hours of time with Carrier combat pilots; and design and development of "Lenticular Aerodynes" (think 'discus'), both RPVs and piloted: these have been built in configurations ranging from Mach 5 AAMs (PYE WACKET) to small piloted craft which are very stable, will land at 30 knots at 30 degrees angle of attack, are astoundingly strong and light airframes, and are one of the ideal "stealth" configurations. Look at:

http://www.rexresearch.com

for "Lenticular Aerodynes" US patents. Amazing...

I can discuss civilian versions. >:-}

Regards,

Tony Hollick
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lunk
post May 29 2008, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE (Anduril @ May 29 2008, 12:42 PM) *
The Wiki article does not mention the location of the 250,000 gallon sprinkler water reservoirs.

According to my recollection, these were placed at the _top_ of the buildings, to overcome the problems of ultra-high-pressure hoses and the upward supply being damaged. The reservoirs were pre-filled. Very odd, that no-one mentions the sprinkler systems coming on. Another "dog that didn't bark"?

"250,000 gallon sprinkler water reservoirs. "

That's a lot of water.
I wonder how much energy it would take to boil it all away...

Makes one wonder why they had to hose down the wtc site for so long afterwards.

To retrofit the existing sprinkler system would mean going through every ceiling crawl space, on every floor.
I should imagine.

(edit) I should have said, plenum.
thx, dmole for pointing that out.

This post has been edited by lunk: May 29 2008, 11:59 PM
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dMz
post May 30 2008, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE (Anduril @ May 29 2008, 01:42 PM) *
May I just say that P4T is a really classy venue. I just wish I'd discovered it earlier.

Hi Tony,

How did you find the Pilots' page? I think I found them from the Patriots Question 9/11 page IIRC.

d
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Anduril
post May 30 2008, 07:59 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ May 30 2008, 09:33 AM) *
Hi Tony,

How did you find the Pilots' page? I think I found them from the Patriots Question 9/11 page IIRC.

d



Hi!

I have a Google News Alet set for "Controlled Demolition" 9/11

Every time Google picks up a mention of this in a newspaper or a blog, I get a notification in my mailbox. Someone cited P4T, and I clicked on the link. I'd seen it before, but since I'm not a full-time fighter pilot or airline pilot, I'd thought I wouldn't be able to join in.

In Britain, pilots are treated somewhat reverentially (WWII, the Battle of Britain, The Few and so on. We grew up on it. My boss at FOREST was Sir Christopher Foxley-Norriss, one of The Few and Chairmen of the Battle of Britain Fighter Pilots' Association).

"For they were honoured in their generations
And were the glory of their times."

Regards,

Tony Hollick
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