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To Be Catholic Or Not To Be Protestant, You Be The Judge

tocarm
post Feb 6 2007, 01:44 AM
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We're going 'round and 'round and 'round in circles here with all of this Protestant Reformers' blatant denials of what Christ Jesus Himself said and taught to His Apostles and THE CHURCH He founded.

The "Flagship of the Protestant Reformation" asserts the following against the teachings of the Catholic Church:

"XVIII. Of the Lord's Supper
"TRANSSUBSTANTITION (or the change of the substance of Bread & Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, CANNOT be proved by HOLY WRIT, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occassion to many superstitions. The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after a heavenly and spiritual manner." - quoting from:

http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirty-nine_articles.html

Now ALL OF YOU can sit on 'Judgement' as to who is RIGHT and who is WRONG in this 500+ year running 'War of Words' between PROTESTANTS and CATHOLICS.

"XVIII. Of the Lord's Supper....CANNOT be proved by HOLY WRIT,"

You don't have to be a QUEEN APPOINTED BISHOP to the Anglican Church in order TO READ YOUR OWN 'HOLY WRIT' BIBLES!

What does JESUS HIMSELF say in the HOLY WRIT Gospel of St. John???
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...69;&version=31;

What does JESUS HIMSELF say in the HOLY WRIT Gospel of St. Matthew???
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...29;&version=31;

What does JESUS HIMSELF say in the HOLY WRIT Gospel of St. Mark???
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...25;&version=31;

What does JESUS HIMSELF say in the HOLY WRIT Gospel of St. Luke???
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...20;&version=31;

What does the APOSTLE PAUL say in HOLY WRIT to the Greek Church in Corinth???
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...32;&version=31;

What do SCIENTISTS have to say about the SUBSTANTIAL NATURE of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano???
http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html

What do YOU see happening to the Consecrated Bread and Wine by Catholic Priests in the Catholic Mass - (all Eucharistic Miracles WORLDWIDE with Protestant England SELF-EXCLUDING itself, of course!)???
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm

What do YOUR EYES show you here???
http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/euchmir.htm

What do YOUR EYES show you in these VIDEOS???
http://www.monksofadoration.org/Betania.html
http://www.monksofadoration.org/Betania2.html
http://www.monksofadoration.org/Audrey.html

What do YOUR EYES show you in the many VIDEOS on these pages???
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=euch...+miracles&hl=en

What does JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF have to say about YOUR VERY OWN EYES in 'Holy Writ'???

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...23;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...10;&version=31;

***************************************************************

So there you have it, folks. 500 YEARS WASTED on account of the 'Protestant Reformation'!!! We could have had PEACE the world over with 6 billion human beings ALL recognizing GOD THE FATHER as their very own Father and ALL simply obeying the SIMPLE SPIRITUAL & MATERIAL Teachings of the Savior of the World.

As we await for the Satanic Inspired/Planned THIRD WORLD WAR to come around any day now (so that some 'Bible Fundamentalists' can DRAG JESUS DOWN FROM HEAVEN BY HIS BEARD so as to 'Rapture' them up into Heaven), you all AT LEAST can now decide 'Who Is Right' and 'Who Is Wrong' with respect to PROTESTANT doctrines vis-a-vis CATHOLIC doctrines.

Is the CATHOLIC CHURCH 'RIGHT' about what 'Holy Writ' teaches - OR - are the 20,000 PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS 'RIGHT' about what 'Holy Writ' teaches.

Cast your 'Vote' before the nukes go off.

- tocarm

...and FYI....a 'P.S.':
http://www.rense.com/general13/beaten.htm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Feb 6 2007, 01:46 AM
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bill
post Feb 6 2007, 08:34 AM
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Taken out-of-context, (something you do often here tocarm) you can make a term or expression mean almost anything at all. This is exactly what Rome has done with the words of Jesus at the Last Supper. Because it fits Rome's theology, she insists Jesus spoke literally. If Jesus said, "This is my body." while holding a piece of bread, why, then, he must have meant it literally, right?

well then is he also a shepherd

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

a door

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9)


and a light bulb

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46)

a door of the sheep

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." (John 10:7)

a pyromaniac

"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49)

bread of life

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)


a vine

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman." (John 15:1)

giver of divine water

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


a good hot shower

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3)

a loaf of bread

"This (referring to himself) is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die." (John 6:50)

and

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:26-28)


Luke 22:18-20 (King James Version)

18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


my vote goes with Jesus and his teaching through the scriptures

we know who wins in the end
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bill
post Feb 6 2007, 08:35 AM
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Mattew 24

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
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bill
post Feb 7 2007, 11:13 AM
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Exodus 7

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
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tocarm
post Feb 8 2007, 06:54 PM
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I think it should be readily evident that there is this certain kind of Divine 'spiritual blindness' that befalls people of any race, creed, color or national origin who CONTEST what Christ Jesus Himself clearly declared, cleary taught and clearly makes manifest even in our own contemporary day and age.

Contesting the Real Presence of His Body and His Blood in His Church's Sacrament of the Eucharist does bring about a degree of 'Spiritual Punishment'...something even 'The Bible' as well as St. Paul the Apostle attest to:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...27;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...32;&version=31;

Even JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF more fully asserts this Divine Truth:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...62;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...71;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...23;&version=31;

Such is the fate of the man who betrays and disregards Christ Jesus' Divine Things - here namely, His Body and His Blood - His Blood of the New Covenant!

*****************************************************************

'O Luther, Luther! How great is your responsibility! .... The intention of Christianity WAS TO CHANGE EVERYTHING!" - Soreen Kierkegaard - Danish Theologian

"5...How often did my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument: 'Are thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for a long time? How if thou errest and leadest into error so many people who would all be damned forever?'" - Martin Luther's own words - quoting from:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/LUTHMOR.TXT

As St. Paul the Apostle "tried via SOLA SCRIPTURA" to instruct Martin Luther:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...38;&version=31;

******************************************************************

One cannot "go back into the past" TO FIX THINGS that went wrong 'back then'. We can only use this 'here/now' time of ours TO STOP continuing in mistakes, in errors, in injustices, in lies, in hate, in deception, etc.

- tocarm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Feb 8 2007, 07:00 PM
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bill
post Feb 8 2007, 10:39 PM
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quote
As St. Paul the Apostle "tried via SOLA SCRIPTURA" to instruct Martin Luther:
unquote

excellent verse, toarm, right to the point

"For God is not a God of disorder but of peace."

The holy spirit will guide, comfort and give peace to all who profess the Jesus is Lord and seek Jesus' truth.

He is NOT a God of disorder

Your scripture in context

Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.



and here

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; [[B]B]do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. [/B][/B]
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

and here


43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.


YES, THANK YOU LORD JESUS


quote
One cannot "go back into the past" TO FIX THINGS that went wrong 'back then'. We can only use this 'here/now' time of ours TO STOP continuing in mistakes, in errors, in injustices, in lies, in hate, in deception, etc.

- tocarm
unquote

This is true of course


We should return to the teachings of Paul, Peter and the early church fathers

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08452b.htm

Here is what this early RCC Father said regarding confession and penance

"We do not request you to go to confess your sins to any of your fellow-men, but only to God!" (Chrysostom, Homily on 50th Psalm)

"We do not ask you to go and confess your iniquities to a sinful man for pardon - but only to God." (Ibid.)

"You need no witness of your confession. Secretly acknowledge your sins and let God alone hear you." (Chrysostom, De Paenitentia, Volume IV, Col. 901)

"Therefore, I beseech you, always confess your sins to God! I, in no way, ask you to confess them to me. To God alone should you expose the wounds of your soul, and from him alone expect the cure. Go to Him, then, and you shall not be cast off, but healed. For, before you utter a single word, God knows your prayer." (Chrysostom, De Incomprehensibili, Volume I, Homily V)
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bill
post Feb 9 2007, 09:00 AM
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And as Paul said to Timothy

II Tim 3

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


The Acts of the Apotles
Chapter 16


29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
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bill
post Feb 9 2007, 09:43 AM
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"One cannot "go back into the past" TO FIX THINGS that went wrong 'back then'. We can only use this 'here/now' time of ours TO STOP continuing in mistakes, in errors, in injustices, in lies, in hate, in deception, etc.

- tocarm "

I completely agree


Transubstantiation was not declared an article of Roman Catholic faith until the Fourth Lateran Council in the year 1215 A.D.

Proof here in the RC Encyclopedia
-----
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09018a.htm

The fathers of the council did little more than approve the seventy decrees presented to them; this approbation, nevertheless, sufficed to impart to the acts thus formulated and promulgated the value of ecumenical decrees. Most of them are somewhat lengthy and are divided into chapters. The following are the most important:

Canon 1: Exposition of the Catholic Faith and of the dogma of Transubstantiation.
----


Here is a statement of Father of the Church Justin Martyr from the second century AD:

"It is quite evident that this prophecy (Isaiah 33:13-19) also alludes to the bread which our Christ gave to us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom he also suffered, and also the cup which he taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood." (Martyr, Justin, Dialog with Trypho, 2nd Century A.D.)

He speaks of "remembrance" and "commemoration"

NOT Transubstantiation
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bill
post Feb 9 2007, 10:40 AM
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On Nov. 25, 1521 he wrote to the Augustinians in Wittenberg:
"With how much pain and labor did I scarcely justify my
conscience that I alone should proceed against the Pope, hold him
for Antichrist, and the bishops for his apostles. How often did
my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument:"Art
thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for a
long time? How if thou errest and leadest into error so many
people who would all be damned forever?" (<De Wette>, 2. 107,
cited in O'Hare p. 195).



Clearly Luther's conscience ultimately gave him the courage to risk his life for the conviction of his mind and the counsel of the Holy Spirit.
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tocarm
post Feb 9 2007, 11:38 AM
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Bill,

I provided you with numerous documentation on what theologians call "transsubstantiation" with respect to Christ Jesus changing bread and wine into His Body and His Blood at an AUTHENTIC/VALID Christian Eucharist.

There comes a point in time per Christ's Own Teachings to recognize those people who WILL NOT accept His Divine Teachings and His Divine Revelation entrusted to His Apostles. And Christ Jesus even advises His disciples that there comes times when confronted by such people to simply ACCEPT that they REJECT what He Himself clearly taught (and even to this very day MAKES PERFECTLY MANIFEST for people to see with their own two eyes) - and to "wipe off the dust from one's feet" at you leave them in their obstinance.

I'm now turning my back on you and these meaningless exchanges with you, and I'm "wiping off the dust of my feet" as I TERMINATE these exchanges with you.

So you DISAGREE as well as DISAPPROVE of the Catholic Church's Sacrament of the Eucharist. That is YOUR choice.

However, there are over TWENTY-THOUSAND 'DENOMINATIONS' throughout the entire world that DISAGREE & DISAPPROVE of 'your' Lutheran teachings and practices. It's about high time you get off of my "back" on get on with your personal business of 'CORRECTING ALL OF THEM'!

I suggest you start with the ANABAPTISTS! And why??? Because of....

http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm

Have a good time "reforming" your other "Reformers"! GOOD LUCK!!!

- tocarm

"There remained FAITHFUL to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of Bread and to the (liturgical) prayers." - Acts 2:42
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bill
post Feb 9 2007, 01:40 PM
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I'm now turning my back on you and these meaningless exchanges with you, and I'm "wiping off the dust of my feet" as I TERMINATE these exchanges with you.
--------------
Sorry you feel that these exchanges were meaningless. I actually learned a great deal from them. I appreciated your posting of RCC links from which I found many quotes from the early church that are in direct oposition to currently held dogma. thank you for that.

"I'm now turning my back on you"

Unfortunately this is typical of Roman Catholics when people question the reason for their beliefs. tocarm, YOU, yourself said God wants us to use logic and to think about our faith, even using that argument to justifiy RCC dogmas not supported by the Bible.

But when confronted with logic that the RCC cannot refute and indeed when shown RCC documentation that demonstrates inconsistencies within the RCC --what else is there to do but turn one's back and ignore the facts, much like the people that accept the official 911 Commision report because it was produced by the Government.

--------------

So you DISAGREE as well as DISAPPROVE of the Catholic Church's Sacrament of the Eucharist. That is YOUR choice.
--------------

I disagree with the ascertion that the host becomes transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, as have countless thousands of Christians that have been tortured and murdered by the RCC over the years for their refusal to accept this doctrine.

I DISAPPROVE of torture and murder in the name of my Lord very LOUDLY

here is something to reconcile

Canon I "If anyone denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema (cursed, damned to hell)."

Also you have refused to believe your own RCC Encyclopedia. Since there IS NO WAY TO EXPLAIN THE FIRST 1200 YEARS when transubstatiation was not a dogma of the RCC. What happened to all those Catholics that did not know this for 1200 years. They went directly to Hell by the teachings of the RCC.

"We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect." [Papal Encyclical Acerbo Nimis, Pope Saint Pius X, April 15, 1905, Paragraph 2.]

By the way the early church Father Justin Martyr did not hold transubstantiation as I have quoted.
----------------

However, there are over TWENTY-THOUSAND 'DENOMINATIONS' throughout the entire world that DISAGREE & DISAPPROVE of 'your' Lutheran teachings and practices. It's about high time you get off of my "back" on get on with your personal business of 'CORRECTING ALL OF THEM'!

----------------

I am sorry you feel that I have been attacking you personally.

There certainly are many heretical denominations and beliefs -- I never denied this

However very few declare that they are the ONE TRUE CHURCH and all others are false

Those few are typically described as CULTS


Peace

eta typos

This post has been edited by bill: Feb 9 2007, 01:44 PM
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tocarm
post Feb 10 2007, 10:18 AM
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"At Fatima, Our Lady declared: 'Only I can help you." @
http://www.fatima.org/essentials/whatucando/crisis.asp

http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian7.htm

MARTIN LUTHER'S DEVOTION TO MARY @
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ77.HTM

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm.html
http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/bvm/dogma.html

THE SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT @
http://www.marianland.com/queen001.html
"They spend valuable time to preach hate towards teachings of the Catholic Church, and Catholics because Holy Apostolic Catholic Church was founded by JESUS CHRIST personally."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...15;&version=31;

- tocarm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Feb 10 2007, 10:41 AM
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bill
post Feb 10 2007, 10:46 AM
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Cool !

Where'd he get the robe with the pagan Peace Sign

Far out man !


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tocarm
post Feb 10 2007, 02:00 PM
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Make up your mind!

Either be a 'good Lutheran' and DEFEND the doctrines and teachings of the Catholic Church about MARY, THE MOTHER OF GOD from any and all of the 20,000+ 'Sola Scriptura anti-Catholic Bible Fundamentalist Sects/Cults' running amock in our contemporary world, or...

....join 'The Other Side'!

"When you have pushed My Mother aside, I tell you, you have pushed Me aside too. My Mother stands with Me.

"When you push God aside, then you shall SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES."
- Jesus Christ to Nancy Fowler - February 6, 1994 @
http://www.ourlovingmother.org/Messages_Mo...vingMother.aspx

Enjoy your 'Pyrrhic Victory' of mockingly pointing out the faults, the defects, the failings of members of Catholic Church's clergy - but UNLESS the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy of the Catholic Church REVERENCE and OBEY God's Mother by their punctual preforming their Collegical Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Christ Jesus' Mother per her 1917 AD Fatima Apparitions and Messages, our entire planet (along with its 20,000+ 'Sola Scriptura anti-Catholic bible-based cults and sects') are going to be forcibly embroiled in a thermonuclear Third World War!

I can only wonder whether or not you have enough 'depth-in-spirit' and 'spiritual sobriety' TO APPRECIATE what a thermonuclear WWIII will have on all of humanity...but then again, you are vehemently 'anti-Catholic'! The lives of 'christians' all across this world of our is of very little 'concern' to you and to your 'bible based clique'.

- tocarm

'The Devil's Final Battle' @
http://www.devilsfinalbattle.com/foreword.htm
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr19/cr19pg31.asp
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bill
post Feb 10 2007, 06:18 PM
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Saint Augustine declared that Mary's flesh was "flesh of sin." (De Peccatorum Meritis, ii, c. 24).

"Mary, springing from Adam, died because of sin; and the flesh of our Lord, derived from Mary, died to take away sin." (De Peccatorum Meritis, ii, c. 24).



"Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." (Galatians 1:18-19)
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bill
post Feb 10 2007, 07:00 PM
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The RCC did not declare the doctrine of Immaculate Conception until roughly 150 years ago in 1854 as documented here in the RCC Encyclopedia (so tell me how is it then, that Luther agreed with this, since he was long dead by 1854)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
quote
"The Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854. In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
unquote


If this doctrine was so clear, and was supported by the 'unanimous consent of the Fathers.' (which it was not, see Saint Augustine quote above), why did it take the RCC almost two thousand years to declare it.
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bill
post Feb 10 2007, 07:13 PM
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From your link
quote
Secondly, the Blessed Virgin is spoken of highly in Martin Luther's various writings. In fact, Luther tells us Mary is the "highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ". High praise indeed! And challenging words for today's Lutherans who have largely forgotten the importance of Mary in the church and in God's plan for our salvation.
unquote

WHERE does it say Luther beleived in the Immaculate Conception of Mary
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bill
post Feb 11 2007, 04:04 PM
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quote
I can only wonder whether or not you have enough 'depth-in-spirit' and 'spiritual sobriety' TO APPRECIATE what a thermonuclear WWIII will have on all of humanity...but then again, you are vehemently 'anti-Catholic'! The lives of 'christians' all across this world of our is of very little 'concern' to you and to your 'bible based clique'.

tocarm
unquote

I recently read "The Road" and recommend it for anyone interested in what post apocalyptic world will be like.

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Cormac-Mccarthy/dp/0307265439

"Cormac McCarthy sets his new novel, The Road, in a post-apocalyptic blight of gray skies that drizzle ash, a world in which all matter of wildlife is extinct, starvation is not only prevalent but nearly all-encompassing, and marauding bands of cannibals roam the environment with pieces of human flesh stuck between their teeth. If this sounds oppressive and dispiriting, it is. McCarthy may have just set to paper the definitive vision of the world after nuclear war, and in this recent age of relentless saber-rattling by the global powers, it's not much of a leap to feel his vision could be not far off the mark nor, sadly, right around the corner. Stealing across this horrific (and that's the only word for it) landscape are an unnamed man and his emaciated son, a boy probably around the age of ten. It is the love the father feels for his son, a love as deep and acute as his grief, that could surprise readers of McCarthy's previous work. McCarthy's Gnostic impressions of mankind have left very little place for love. In fact that greatest love affair in any of his novels, I would argue, occurs between the Billy Parham and the wolf in The Crossing. But here the love of a desperate father for his sickly son transcends all else. McCarthy has always written about the battle between light and darkness; the darkness usually comprises 99.9% of the world, while any illumination is the weak shaft thrown by a penlight running low on batteries. In The Road, those batteries are almost out--the entire world is, quite literally, dying--so the final affirmation of hope in the novel's closing pages is all the more shocking and maybe all the more enduring as the boy takes all of his father's (and McCarthy's) rage at the hopeless folly of man and lays it down, lifting up, in its place, the oddest of all things: faith. --Dennis Lehane"
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tocarm
post Feb 12 2007, 12:47 PM
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There is a DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE!

There was >>NO OFFICIAL CHRISTIAN 'BIBLE'<< until the Church Councils of Carthage and Hippo, 397 & 400 AD.

There was >>NO OFFICIAL 'SOLA SCRIPTURA'<< until Martin Luther.

Regarding 'The Immaculate Conception' of Mary, the THEOTOKOS, the Mother of God...

...what did SATAN >>DO TO<< Eve???

What does St. John THE APOSTLE have to say about "undoing"???

"It was TO UNDO >>ALL<< THE DEVIL HAS DONE that the Son of God appeared."
- Jerusalem Bible - 1 John 3:8-9 -

You have GOD'S OWN 'PROPHECY' of Genesis 3:15...you have Revelation 12:17...
you have Isaiah 7:14...you have Psalm 45:7-17...you have MARY, God's Own IMMACULATE CONCEPTION echoing every last of the foregoing biblical citations in the Gospel of St. Luke 1:45-35. You have JESUS HIMSELF confirming every last bit of 'biblical prophecy' while HANGING & DYING ON HIS CROSS while in the final stages of being CRUCIFED! The Gospel of St. John 19:25-27.

I cannot stop you from your OBSTINATE DENIALS of what is clearly taught and presented in human salvation history as recorded in 'The Bible'!

You want TO DENY Christ's Own Body and Blood TRANSUBSTANTIATED into the bread and wine of an Apostolic Christian Eucharist - I CAN'T STOP YOU!

You want TO DENY Christ's Own Mother's UNIQUE place and role in God's Salvation and Redemption of the human race - I CAN'T STOP YOU!

You want TO DENY the efficacious and necessary nature of the Sacrament of Chrisitan Confirmation - I CAN'T STOP YOU!

And if the ENTIRE WORLD is "hell bent" on the utter wholesale REJECTION of God's Christ to our dying world - I CAN'T STOP THEM EITHER!

But asserting ERRORS 'ad infinitum' as being 'truths' DOES NOT make those ERRORS into TRUTHS!

And THAT is just 'the way it is'!

- tocarm
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bill
post Feb 12 2007, 02:05 PM
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"There is a DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE!"

So ascerts the RCC

My question then is:

WHY did it take 1800 YEARS to figure out the doctrine of Immaculate Conception ?

and what of all those 'MISGUIDED' Roman Catholics for those 1800 years ?


"There was >>NO OFFICIAL CHRISTIAN 'BIBLE'<< until the Church Councils of Carthage and Hippo, 397 & 400 AD."

This factually incorrect

The Syrian Peshitta 146 AD (there exists today many copies of this)

http://www.peshitta.org/

the OLD Latin Vulgate 157 AD (this is quoted from frequently in documents of the early church fathers before 400 AD)


"There was >>NO OFFICIAL 'SOLA SCRIPTURA'<< until Martin Luther."

The concept of the Holy Scriptures being the 'ground and pillar" and "the supreme authority" the "proof from the Holy Scriptures" was obvious in several quotes from the early church fathers.

All these quotes were BEFORE 397 AD


Saint Irenaeus (115 to about 200 AD)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08130b.htm


"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel is come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." [Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 1, Irenaeus, "Against Heresies" 3.1.1, P. 414]


Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (315 to 386 AD)

"This seal have thou ever on they mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on its heads, and if the Lord grat, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings but by proof from the Holy Scriptures." [The Catechetical Lectures of St. Cyril, Lecture 4.17; A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, Oxford, Parker, 1845]



Saint Augustine (354 -386 AD)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm

"This mediator (Jesus Christ), first through the Prophets, then by his own lips, afterwards through the Apostles, revealed whatever he considered necessary. He also inspired the Scripture, which is regarded as canonical and of supreme authority and to which we give credence concerning all those truths we ought to know and yet, of ourselves, are unable to learn." (City of God, copyright 1958 by Fathers of the Church, Inc., edited by Vernon J. Bourke, ISBN 0-385-02910-1, page 207).



"But asserting ERRORS 'ad infinitum' as being 'truths' DOES NOT make those ERRORS into TRUTHS!

And THAT is just 'the way it is'!"

WE FINALLY AGREE

The RCC needs to stop its false teachings that are not supported by scripture and are at odds with what the Jesus, the Apostles, and the early church fathers taught and wrote.
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