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Plane Crash In New York State, 9/11 victim's wife aboard.

Omega892R09
post Feb 13 2009, 08:43 AM
Post #1





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Posts: 2,194
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From: Hampshire, UK.
Member No.: 2,274



I am not about to hypothesise but others here may be able to fill in any blanks:

Plane crash in NY state kills 49 - BBC
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starviego
post Apr 8 2010, 01:11 AM
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Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 22
Joined: 29-December 08
Member No.: 4,049



If you read the reports of the witnesses on the ground, it appears that engine problems could have doomed this plane--


NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements

pg2 of 131
Vicki Braun
plane engine had ''echo sound'' then sounded like the engine stopped then heard a ''boom''

pg2 of 131
Hank Cole
plane didn't sound right, engine sounded like it was ''revving'' then cut out and then he heard a bang.

pg 4 of 131 Maha Abdallah
Before the plane impacted the ground, Abdallah noticed sparks coming from the plane.

pg6 of 131
Shannon Alessandra
Just prior to the airplane crashing, the engines made a ''weird sound.''

pg7 of 131
Jean Andreassen
Andreassen stated that she heard strange noises from the engines

pg8 of 131
Kristen and Aaron Archambeault
They both described the engine noise as ''sputtering''

pg9 of 131
Stanley Barnas
...he saw a bright orange flash out of the living room window. ... After the flash they heard a loud crash. Barnas is 100percent certain the saw the bright orange flash before the crash.

pg11 of 131
Michele Beiter
Michele stated the noise, 'skipped' and and she was releived it stopped, and then it started again. Michel is positive there was a skip. Michele further described everthing she heard as, 'Noise, skip, noise, loud noise.'

pg13 of 131
Robert Bijak
The engines sounded like a metallic rattle and remined Bijak of a car engine with no oil in it.

pg14 of 131
Tin Bojarski
The plane did not sound right and sort of sounded like a car with a broken muffler.

pg17 of 131
Ronald Braunscheidel
...he heard a very loud spitting and sputtering sound of a plane engine flying overhead. Braunscheidel described the noise as a car without a muffler.

pg 18 of 131
Sharon Brennan
Brennan believed the plane was... maybe in trouble based on the noise.

pg22 of 131
Patricia Burns
Burns was able to see most of the left side of the airplane and noticed flames coming from the rear of the aircraft.

pg28 of 131
Dan Cizdziel
...heard a sputtering, binging noise to the north....

pg42 of 131
Doug Errick
Errick indicated that as the plane got closer the engines became very rough. Errick thought the engines were coming on and off, almost like engines were trying to come back on, but couldn't remain running. Errick thought the engines were changing RPMs rapidly.

pg49 of 131
Mary Grefrath
Grefrath recalled that the engine sounded like it was spuddering.

pg66 of 131
Jean Larocque
Larocque... stated he heard puttering plane... Larocque reported that the engines were not making a uniform sound.

pg 77 of 131
Molly Merlo
...she heard the airplane make a ''gurgling'' sound.

pg81 of 131
Marianne Neri
The engine noise did not sound like a normal plane, but more like a helicopter. It was obvious something was wrong with the engines.

pg85 of 131
Angela Pillo
The sound was very loud and ''rough,'' as if the engine was having trouble. The sound was further described as sounding like a ''lawn mower''

pg91 of 131
Lisa Rott
....she heard a consistent low grumbling sound that she believed to be a propeller plane. Rott advised that the sound the plane's engines was not smooth and did not sound like other propeller planes that she has heard in the past.

pg96 of 131
Kenneth Smith
...heard a big bag then continued to hear the sound of airplane engines.

pg89 of 131
Joseph Summers
...heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. Mr. Summers cited a ''rambling noise'' which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.

pg101 of 131
Rick Telfair
Telfair stated he then heard a winding or grinding noise, then a screeching or grinding noise and approximately 20-30 seconds later heard a large boom... Telfair further described the noise of the engine as fighting, almost as though they were trying to go faster but couldn't, not accelerating but distressed.

pg 102 of 131
Denise Trabucco
Trabucco described the sound as a humming, similar to a transformer prior to it blowing. Aafter the humming, Trabucco heard a popping sound. ... About a minute after the humming and popping sound, Trabucco and her family felt a vibration that felt a little like an earthquake.

pg105 of 131
Lorraine Unverzart
The airplane engines made a ''chugging'' sound, similar to a ''spark plug misfiring.''

pg106 of 131
Louis Vitello
...he heard the plane engines sputtering as it approached, and then heard a ''poppomg sound.'' Immediately after that Mr. Vitello heard ''grinding'' noised, stating that the noises reminded him of gears grinding together, sounding like the gears were missing teeth.

pg124 of 131
David Wolf
...the engines were making an unusual ''shuttering'' sound

pg126 of 131
Melissa Wols
She stated she heard the plane.... grinding and sputtering as it approached and passed over his residence. Wols advised it sounded similar to what grinding metal would sound like.

pg129 of 131
Rita Zirnheld
It ''sounded like sputtering'' and ''engine was coughing.''

pg130 of 131
Barbara Garret
She said the plane engine was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering.

------------


This theory is backed by some of the initial reports of the incident:


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/investigators_gathe r_wreckage.html
''....initial reports said the plane was held up due to mechanical problems''
(explaining why the plane took off two hours late from Newark)

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/577959.html
(Erie County Executive Chris)Collins said that .... crew members had reported mechanical problems as they approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport.



I have been posting this on other pilot-oriented forums but have got nothing but grief for it. Though I don't think the witness statements can so easily be ignored.


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Graeme
post Jul 28 2010, 05:36 PM
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Group: Student Forum Pilot
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QUOTE (starviego @ Apr 8 2010, 06:11 AM) *
If you read the reports of the witnesses on the ground, it appears that engine problems could have doomed this plane--


NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements


I have been posting this on other pilot-oriented forums but have got nothing but grief for it. Though I don't think the witness statements can so easily be ignored.


I find that stuff very interesting and have heard other similar web-based reports. The official Investigation still dwells on Pilot-Under training and the whole very valid and massively important issue of Airlines De-regulation in the 'US'. This accident has become an absolute benchmark, forcing the airline industry to re-evaluate everything it does. " ... the term watershed accident comes out frequently regarding this incident".
Bill Voss President Flight Safety Foundation

However, I don't buy this official explanation as anything more than convenient. I did the math, roughly. The chance of an epoused pair (Eckert and Husband) dying in air-related accidents, directly and indirectly are pushing 1 in a Trillion, that's working from the late 1990's Risk Assessment Figures for civilian airline flying, that I heard of being in the order of 1 in a Million chance of dying in an air accident.

But watch Here, ONLINE the full 2010 PBS Documentary entitled: "FLYING CHEAP"
- http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/
'The harrowing tale of Colgan 3407'.

I just did, and my own review is:
It's actually quite damning of endemic back-scratching, lack of training, a dearth of inexperience and quick promotions within the regional de-regulated airlines and cites the nepotism and protective attitude of the FAA towards the major carriers in their 'hands-off' relationship with their lesser regional partners. Until COLGAN 3407 that is.

Now they're in a world of pain. So, let's keep reminding them, that we're all watching
....


This post has been edited by Graeme: Jul 28 2010, 06:39 PM
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Posts in this topic
- Omega892R09   Plane Crash In New York State   Feb 13 2009, 08:43 AM
- - DoYouEverWonder   The wish of a 9/11 widow Posted 12/5/04 A member ...   Feb 13 2009, 09:11 AM
- - Ricochet   The lawsuit was not about money, it was for accoun...   Feb 13 2009, 11:54 AM
- - JFK   ATC Audio - http://event.liveatc.net/kbuf/KBUF-Feb...   Feb 13 2009, 12:49 PM
- - jo56   One of Buffalo crash victims met with Obama earlie...   Feb 13 2009, 02:13 PM
- - grizz   A little more information: Beverly Eckert, Bereav...   Feb 13 2009, 02:31 PM
- - grizz   Voices of September 11 My Silence Cannot Be Bo...   Feb 13 2009, 03:20 PM
- - painter   I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming o...   Feb 13 2009, 04:32 PM
|- - datars   QUOTE (painter @ Feb 10 2009, 12:32 PM) I...   Feb 15 2009, 11:52 PM
- - Ricochet   Final communications. Source. http://network.natio...   Feb 13 2009, 04:54 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (Ricochet @ Feb 13 2009, 08:54 PM) ...   Feb 18 2009, 06:34 PM
- - rob balsamo   The above transcript has alot of errors. For those...   Feb 13 2009, 05:46 PM
- - rob balsamo   ILS 23 KBUF (pdf)   Feb 13 2009, 05:55 PM
- - paranoia   http://www.colganair.com/ http://www.colganair.com...   Feb 13 2009, 06:39 PM
- - paranoia   a list of some of the others onboard the plane: ...   Feb 13 2009, 06:47 PM
- - paranoia   just saw this posted by SmokingGunz over at LCF: ...   Feb 13 2009, 08:08 PM
- - Trismagistus   I'm neither a pilot or an activist, but a rese...   Feb 13 2009, 09:34 PM
- - JFK   http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html ...   Feb 13 2009, 10:01 PM
|- - kgray1   QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 13 2009, 09:01 PM) http:...   Mar 20 2009, 02:57 AM
- - amazed!   Another one bites the dust...Too Bad. I guess it ...   Feb 13 2009, 10:58 PM
- - Trismagistus   I watched the news tonight. They are missing the o...   Feb 13 2009, 11:26 PM
- - rob balsamo   Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcri...   Feb 13 2009, 11:56 PM
|- - Graeme   ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript ...   Aug 1 2010, 12:40 PM
|- - starviego   Here is more evidence that engine failure, not pil...   Oct 6 2010, 12:09 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Oct 6 2010, 04:09 AM) ...   Nov 11 2010, 12:59 PM
|- - starviego   You can access the documents here: http://www.nts...   Nov 17 2010, 12:39 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM)...   Nov 24 2010, 11:57 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM)...   Nov 24 2010, 12:32 PM
- - rob balsamo   44 guests logged onto this thread currently. Welco...   Feb 14 2009, 12:57 AM
- - painter   Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7890455....   Feb 14 2009, 06:38 PM
- - Trismagistus   At 2300 feet heading 2-6-0 3407 was instructed to ...   Feb 14 2009, 07:02 PM
- - captsly   NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.....   Feb 14 2009, 07:37 PM
|- - JFK   QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 06:37 PM) N...   Feb 14 2009, 07:47 PM
- - rob balsamo   Welcome to the forum captsly. Please try to post...   Feb 14 2009, 07:46 PM
|- - captsly   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 06:46 P...   Feb 14 2009, 11:29 PM
|- - captsly   QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 10:29 PM) s...   Feb 14 2009, 11:46 PM
- - DoYouEverWonder   NYT - In Plane Crash, Loss of Momentum Still a Mys...   Feb 14 2009, 09:55 PM
- - albertchampion   when i was flying my baron, icing was the scariest...   Feb 15 2009, 01:57 AM
- - amazed!   Having never flown the Dash 8, it's a safe bet...   Feb 15 2009, 11:47 AM
- - Trismagistus   In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and ...   Feb 15 2009, 02:15 PM
|- - KP50   QUOTE (Trismagistus @ Feb 16 2009, 07:15 ...   Feb 15 2009, 04:21 PM
|- - Omega892R09   QUOTE (KP50 @ Feb 13 2009, 07:21 PM) I wa...   Feb 15 2009, 06:17 PM
- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE Fatal US plane 'was on autopilot' ...   Feb 15 2009, 06:34 PM
|- - nitatutt   The local weather was odd on the 12th. We are al...   Feb 15 2009, 07:35 PM
- - albertchampion   there are many incorrect aspects of this flight re...   Feb 15 2009, 08:48 PM
- - richard cranium   The ABC affiliate here in southern California keep...   Feb 15 2009, 09:26 PM
- - albertchampion   the "on" autopilot aspect of this story ...   Feb 15 2009, 10:07 PM
- - JFK   A cockpit view of the Q-400 from bombardier - http...   Feb 16 2009, 12:41 AM
- - rob balsamo   Steve Nieman is one of our core members and is a C...   Feb 16 2009, 01:28 AM
|- - JFK   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 12:28 A...   Feb 16 2009, 10:12 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 16 2009, 09:12 AM) You a...   Feb 16 2009, 11:38 AM
|- - JFK   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 10:38 A...   Feb 16 2009, 12:00 PM
- - paranoia   im far from anything even remotely close to being ...   Feb 16 2009, 03:37 AM
- - rob balsamo   Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a repor...   Feb 16 2009, 04:18 AM
|- - paranoia   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 03:18 A...   Feb 17 2009, 01:05 AM
- - rob balsamo   Found these on another board.... QUOTE METARS for...   Feb 16 2009, 04:44 AM
- - datars   Good Post!!! Nice input from everyone....   Feb 16 2009, 11:19 AM
- - amazed!   This is a classic stall/spin accident, with severa...   Feb 16 2009, 04:06 PM
- - paranoia   ETA: some wreckage that survived: (one of the ...   Feb 17 2009, 01:22 AM
- - rob balsamo   Saw the vid.... interesting... thanks.   Feb 17 2009, 01:40 AM
- - Omega892R09   For those interested in Buffalo/Niagara airport de...   Feb 17 2009, 12:49 PM
- - grizz   Welcome to Pilots!   Feb 18 2009, 06:44 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (grizz @ Feb 18 2009, 10:44 PM) We...   Feb 18 2009, 07:01 PM
- - painter   Wow. Yes, welcome to the forum Graeme   Feb 18 2009, 07:02 PM
- - rob balsamo   ILS Approach plate for KBUF Runway 23. QUOTE (rob ...   Feb 18 2009, 07:18 PM
- - Leslie Landry   FSB reports are stating today that American fascis...   Mar 1 2009, 11:02 PM
|- - Leslie Landry   for some reason..it wont let me post the rest of t...   Mar 1 2009, 11:13 PM
- - Cheri   It is said that flying is safer than driving...wit...   Mar 1 2009, 11:16 PM
- - amazed!   Quite a web you weave LL. Fascinating stuff. If ...   Mar 1 2009, 11:19 PM
- - grizz   Well, if we're going to invoke Sorcha Faal, I...   Mar 1 2009, 11:45 PM
- - Cheri   I find it interesting that out of a group of 911 t...   Mar 1 2009, 11:51 PM
- - rob balsamo   Preliminary is out from NTSB. Not much as expected...   Mar 2 2009, 12:33 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 2 2009, 05:33 AM...   Apr 3 2009, 03:52 PM
- - dMole   A belated hello and welcome Graeme.   Mar 2 2009, 12:53 AM
- - albertchampion   yes, i suppose a sudden flat spin of only downward...   Mar 2 2009, 02:19 AM
- - amazed!   Grizz I am skeptical of the blog you offered. It...   Mar 2 2009, 10:51 AM
|- - grizz   QUOTE (amazed! @ Mar 2 2009, 06:51 AM...   Mar 2 2009, 10:58 AM
- - amazed!   Thanks Grizz.   Mar 2 2009, 11:12 AM
- - rob balsamo   Welcome kgray! By the way folks.. be nice to ...   Mar 20 2009, 03:01 AM
|- - kgray1   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 20 2009, 02:01 A...   Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (kgray1 @ Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM) Th...   Mar 20 2009, 03:14 AM
- - dMole   Hello and welcome kgray1. I'm sorry to hear o...   Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM
- - rob balsamo   QUOTE NTSB Advisory National Transportation Safet...   Apr 28 2009, 12:17 AM
- - Ricochet   Flight 3407 and swine flu connection. FWIW. http:/...   Apr 28 2009, 02:03 PM
- - paranoia   "Buffalo crash: Pilots acted 'just opposi...   May 12 2009, 11:45 PM
- - albertchampion   it is an odd transcript of the cvr. and the propo...   May 14 2009, 12:33 AM
- - Graeme   I see that NTSB are publishing on 3407 already, I ...   May 14 2009, 08:23 PM
- - Graeme   Please analyse and reply with your informed knowle...   May 14 2009, 09:30 PM
- - albertchampion   you are correct about one aspect of this: the alac...   May 14 2009, 09:30 PM
|- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE (albertchampion @ May 14 2009, 09:3...   May 14 2009, 09:44 PM
- - rob balsamo   Unfortunately i missed this when it was published ...   Jul 29 2009, 01:48 AM
- - rob balsamo   Colgan Landing Stall Profile http://www.ntsb.gov/...   Jul 29 2009, 02:13 AM
- - paranoia   just wanted to add this overlooked coincedence/iro...   Feb 8 2010, 12:34 AM
- - starviego   If you read the reports of the witnesses on the gr...   Apr 8 2010, 01:11 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Apr 8 2010, 06:11 AM) ...   Jul 28 2010, 05:36 PM
- - truthmatters   I watched the video of the animation. At first I w...   Jul 29 2010, 10:18 PM
- - amazed!   I'm guessing you're not a pilot, and thus ...   Nov 25 2010, 12:09 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 25 2010, 04:09 P...   Nov 29 2010, 12:55 PM
- - Graeme   I just figured out another reason why I felt a str...   Nov 30 2010, 02:10 PM
- - starviego   The names of 48 of the 50 dead victims were releas...   Dec 1 2010, 10:01 AM
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