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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Religion _ Sanders' Religion Thread

Posted by: Sanders Nov 11 2006, 05:53 AM

e-Dog and I have decided to re-constitute this from LC. It is a thread about the 3 major religions of the world. The goal was to follow the path of each from their common origins to the present day. We (a number of LC posters and I) got as far as the begining of the First Crusade while the thread was active.

What becomes of this thread when all the copying is done is not clear. It may be just a read-only thread for the Religion topic. Or it may be left open to posting, so we can finish the journey.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 07:49 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 08:12 PM

Religion pops up so much on this board lately, I thought it might be interesting to compile our own "history of Islam, Judaeism and Christianity".

I'm not going to write it, interested posters are. Anyone that wants to contribute can help. I have some rules though -

Rules:

Discussion will be sequential. I'll start it off with Abraham. No one gets to talk about Lawrence of Arabia until we've talked about the Ottoman Empire, we don't get to talk about the Ottomans until after we touch on the Spanish Inquisistion, etc.

Try to limit to what is fact and what is not. For example, Muslims BELIEVE that Mohammed rose with Jesus and visited heaven. That is true, true Muslims believe that (I think?). Also, who invaded what part of the world when, stuff like that. That's what we want.

Try to keep the posts succinct and easy to comprehend. Try to summarise, giving your take on a particular event. If people say, Bulls#it!, then you can get into more detail to back up your view.

I reserve the right to play referee.

My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war. tongue.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 07:53 AM

Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 08:18 PM

In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.

From then on it took it's course and has turned into something we have today.

Islam is the Arabs answer to the Holy Roman Empire.

Takes what's good from the bible and quran and burn them.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 07:53 AM

Posted by: water_bender Jul 28 2006, 08:19 PM


abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:00 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 08:31 PM


QUOTE
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.



Even better place to start ! Far out... Wait, what are talking, when you say 'Egyptian times'?? How does that line up with Abraham's life and death? Are you saying the switch from a Matriarcial society started with Abraham?

QUOTE
abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.



That's what I call succinct. salute.gif While you posted that I was writing this -

So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert.

Ishmael settled in Saudi Arabia, and Arabs generally believe that they are all descended from him. Isaac went to Israel, and the Jews believe they are descended from him.

So basically, the Palestinian conflict, the business in Lebanon, and maybe half the world's wars could've all been prevented if Abraham hadn't slept around.

Is that about right?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:00 AM

Posted by: specimen0420 Jul 28 2006, 08:41 PM

http://www.taroscopes.com/astro-theology/astrotheology.html

This will take hours to read, but it is loaded with info and resources.

A few questions answered:

Who the hell are these few wanting to take over the world?
What are the real identities of the main characters in the Bible?
Who are the real Jews?
Where did Israel come from?

Wonderful Entymology (origins of words), for example; Christians out there should look at why you say "Amen" at the end of a prayer.

Here's a few good ones:
ISRAEL
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL. These are three gods of the ancient Cults. There where 4 major Cults, one replacing the other through time. Finally these Cults joined up and became one. The earliest cult is the Stellar, next came the Lunar, then the Saturnian and then the Solar. The illusion that their where voluminous pantheons of gods is a result of these cults. (see, Da Vinci and Bottecelli, Mona Lisa and Last Supper, etc,.)

DAVID / DOVE
Means Divide and indicates 'Geometry.' The letters of the word seen geometrically make the Star of David. The two "D"s become a circle, the "A" is a triangle, the "V" is an downward facing triangle. We also derive the word Dove from David. This is why there is a dove on the modern credit card and why the Royalty also use the symbol. In Spanish the word for Dove is Columba, or Columbanus. This is where the Knights of Columbus get their name. The District of Columbia, British Columbia, Columbia (SA), Columbia Pictures, Columbia Records, Christopher Columbus and Columbine High School, all derive from the secret meaning of this term and symbol. The name of Columbus, was adopted by Christopher Columbus because he was in the pay of the Knights of Malta, the real founders and owners of America. We still see the pictures of the ships in which Columbus sailed. On the sails was the red cross of the Knights of Malta, also known as the Knights of Columbus. Another of their symbols, the dove, is also found on Greenpeace, and in the movie For your eyes only, the criminal group of crack assassins use the symbol. The Knights of Columbus trace their occult history from the actual Assassins of the Persians. Also from davad, meaning sexual desire.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:05 AM

Posted by: turturis Jul 28 2006, 09:30 PM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 03:31 PM)
QUOTE
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.


Even better place to start ! Far out... Wait, what are talking, when you say 'Egyptian times'?? How does that line up with Abraham's life and death? Are you saying the switch from a Matriarcial society started with Abraham?

QUOTE
abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.

That's what I call succinct. While you posted that I was writing this -

So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert.

Ishmael settled in Saudi Arabia, and Arabs generally believe that they are all descended from him. Isaac went to Israel, and the Jews believe they are descended from him.

So basically, the Palestinian conflict, the business in Lebanon, and maybe half the world's wars could've all been prevented if Abraham hadn't slept around.

Is that about right?


sarah wasnt pissed...she gave her handmaiden to abe because she was baren. it was customary in those days for a women who was baren to give her handmaiden to the husband.

sanders...i thought you were serious.....this doesnt really seem like its off to a good start

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 09:55 PM


QUOTE (turturis @ Jul 29 2006 @ 06:30 AM)
sarah wasnt pissed...she gave her handmaiden to abe because she was baren.  it was customary in those days for a women who was baren to give her handmaiden to the husband.

sanders...i thought you were serious.....this doesnt really seem like its off to a good start


What?? Whadd I do?
Now, see, I didn't know that. I just learned something.
And I am serious ...
Now once Sarah was able to have a son, she DID tell Abraham to send Hagar away, right?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 28 2006, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (FL2 @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:18 PM)
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.

From then on it took it's course and has turned into something we have today.

Islam is the Arabs answer to the Holy Roman Empire.

Takes what's good from the bible and quran and burn them.


That is false because God has no gender in Islam. As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God. His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha. As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis. Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah. It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113). Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets. Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob. Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM

Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 10:49 PM

QUOTE
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL.


Just checked

Is = Stands for Isis, the queen of the throne.
Ra = symbolizes the Sun
El = The supreme God (masculine entity)

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 07:31 AM)
As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God. His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha. As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis. Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah. It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113). Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets. Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob. Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph. 

Interesting - I had never heard Abraham and Hagar were married - (I'm not a religious guy, don't read the Bible so you'll have to forgive me). Would it be fair to say that Islam teaches that they were married while Judaeism and Christianity teach that they were not?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 12:11 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 07:31 AM)
As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God.  His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha.  As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis.  Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah.  It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113).  Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael.  As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets.  Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob.  Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.  Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph. 

Interesting - I had never heard Abraham and Hagar were married - (I'm not a religious guy, don't read the Bible so you'll have to forgive me). Would it be fair to say that Islam teaches that they were married while Judaeism and Christianity teach that they were not? 


Actually, Hagar is, according to the Bible, Abraham's wife. He is an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_%28Bibl...in_Islamic_Lore

"The story of Hagar is found in Genesis 16 and 21. The narrative states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave her to Abraham for a wife, that by her, as a substitute, might bear him children."

Also, according to this, she was Abraham's wife. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar

So the Biblical and Quranic accounts of the life of the Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) are similar in so many ways, including the fact that Hagar was his wife, given to him by Sara. Sara's slave was Hagar, but she gave her to Abraham since she was barren.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 03:10 AM

You know, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are so closely alike. We worship the same One God, we believe in many of the same prophets and messengers of God, we believe in angels, the afterlife, and etc. All three of those religions are Abrahamic religions. We are all monotheists. To see similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an

We all agree that the Torah and Psalms came from God to Moses and David, Christians and Muslims both believe that the Gospel came from God to Jesus, and only Muslims believe that the Qur'an came from God to Muhammad. If you read about the similarities, you'll realize that Islam has come to be misunderstood by many and that Christianity and Judaism are very close in beliefs.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM

Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 03:24 AM


And then, as the mushroom cloud rose up over Tel Aviv, Muslims around the world jumped up and down, smacked themselves in the face with heavy chains and scream "Allah akbar!"

Meanwhile the Americans watched on TV in stunned amazament, mostly saying "Jesus H f*cking Christ look what they just did!"

Followed by a guy in Cheyenne mountain unlocking a special little box while he whispered, "God forgive me"...


woops, I skipped right to the last chapter.


religion=

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 03:24 AM


QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
And then, as the mushroom cloud rose up over Tel Aviv, Muslims around the world jumped up and down, smacked themselves in the face with heavy chains and scream "Allah akbar!"

Meanwhile the Americans watched on TV in stunned amazament, mostly saying "Jesus H f*cking Christ look what they just did!"

Followed by a guy in Cheyenne mountain unlocking a special little box while he whispered, "God forgive me"...


woops, I skipped right to the last chapter.


religion= 

Listen, if you are not going to contribute to this thread then don't post anything. You don't see me making fun of your beliefs, so don't make fun of mine.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 03:35 AM


QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
religion= 

Durn Roger. I thought THEY were SKEPTICS!! doh1.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 04:18 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war. 

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII.

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it. unsure.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM

Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 04:38 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war.
 

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII. 

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it.


Alright, I want to contribute something vaguely meaningful to this thread since I've gone and called it what it is again (a personal note, I have sacrificed my own here, I turned off the "show signatures" option in the control panel just so I wouldn't have to see gm's stupid f*@kin quotes, thereby missing out on chucksheens ongoing works of art).

So tell me what you make of this-


Psalm 83

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.
See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.
With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”


Discovered in a bog in Ireland last week, a 1,200 year old bible opened to Psalm 83

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/07/28/10055621.html

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM

Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:35 PM)
QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
religion=

Durn Roger. I thought THEY were SKEPTICS!! 

Skeptics are harder to spot. They blend in with any other group.

I caught up with one today...can you find him in this picture?

[image no longer available]

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:38 AM)
QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war.  tongue.gif

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII. 

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it.  unsure.gif

Alright, I want to contribute something vaguely meaningful to this thread since I've gone and called it what it is again (a personal note, I have sacrificed my own here, I turned off the "show signatures" option in the control panel just so I wouldn't have to see gm's stupid f*ckin quotes, thereby missing out on chucksheens ongoing works of art).

So tell me what you make of this-


Psalm 83

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.
See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.
With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”


Discovered in a bog in Ireland last week, a 1,200 year old bible opened to Psalm 83

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/07/28/10055621.html


Roger, the god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in either.

I do believe in God, but I believe that He is far above the petty contrivances that we humans bicker over.

We tend to invent a partisan god that will one day zap all the infidels and unbelievers and raise us true believers up to heights of glory so that we can proudly proclaim, "There! Told you so!"

So I will tell you about the God that I believe in. My sincerest apologies to those these viewpoints may offend.

1 All great religions are from God.

2 These religions are revealed to us sequentially similar to teachers in a school who take us step by step from year 1 to year 7 (or something similar).

3 When a religion is new born it is powerful and dynamic. Because it is opposed by the entrenched authorities (often the previous religion) no 'hangers on' join up.

4 As the religion becomes established people realize that it is a shortcut to power, so the freeloaders start to climb on board.

5 The religion effloresces in its summertime glory, establishing a civilization that is the epitome of human development.

6 Eventually the freeloaders fully corrupt the religion and it becomes a spent force in human affairs.

7 At this point a new Holy Prophet of God appears and begins the cycle again.

So when we look at religion in the world around us what we see is the depleted structures of bygone glory.

Islam was truy glorious in the European Dark Ages, Christianity during the time of Constantine, Judaism during the ancient Greek civilization.

Perhaps future historians will be able to trace the influence of the Prophets on Egypt and Mesopotamia (or Ur or Sumeria).

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 07:04 AM

QUOTE
I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII.


You mean in Lebanon or here? I thought all the posts were good reads - roger was a little reckless as he always is with his wording choices ("god is coming to eat you") but pretty funny too so I'll let it slide...

QUOTE
Perhaps future historians will be able to trace the influence of the Prophets on Egypt and Mesopotamia (or Ur or Sumeria).


Enlighten us !

Also, we need to put stuff in context time-wise. Abraham was, what, around 2000 BC ? And he came from Ur, right? Ur looks like it's in Southern Iraq on a modern map to me...

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5354/sumereu4.gif

Also I read somwhere that Ur is the birthplace of law - just gooled Ur and got this.

"Ur-Nammu's Code, dates from this time. Although called Ur-Nammu's Code, it is generally agreed that it was written by his son Shugli. (The code allowed for the dismissal of corrupt men, protection of the poor, giving testomony under oath, and the ability of judges to order damages be paid to a victim by the guilty party)."

Ah, those were the days, eh?

OK, thanks eveyone for the great posts - anyone is free to move on to what happens to Abraham's kids BTW -

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM

Posted by: water_bender Jul 29 2006, 07:40 AM

if we're really gonna get t the nitty gritty of it all 3 sects of the abrahamic religions can be traced back to babylon and zoroastor (who is also a prophet btw, also know as zarathustra). it was his brand of religion that setup the initial ideas of a heaven, hell, angels, judgement day, etc. and yaweh was a originally a god of wind. but yes the three sects are quite similar, with judeaism being the opressive controlling, wealth obsessed core. christianity being the 'light' version that centers power in the church, and then islam which is also split between shiite and sunni one thats as oppressive as judaism, minus the wealth, plus women hatred and the other has the same only adding in violence as a way of glorifying god.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: Chris Sarns Jul 29 2006, 07:51 AM

GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers rhetoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 29 2006, 08:04 AM

isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Chris Sarns @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:51 PM)
GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers retoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest

Thanks Chris. I do tend to inject a little sarcasm once in a while - I mean no disrespect by it. For anyone who cares, I personally am not religious - it's funny, I think I was a happier human being before I found "darwin". But I support people believing in what they want - I wonder sometimes if the world would be a better, more peaceful place without monotheistic religion, or an even more chaotic one. Food for thought, eh? Either way, I agree with Jimmy Carter (Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis) that 'fundamentalism' in any denomination is dangerous. "That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad" (ChrisSarns from above).

The posts from GreatMuslim were about the best posts from you I think I've ever read - thanks for straightening me out.

The business of which son Abraham was told to sacrifice is a point of contention, the Bible and the Quran differ on this, and the two versions support different versions of what was promised to which progeny - but really, the point is that this was the source, these stories are where the 3 religions sprang from. The details can't be seriously argued - I mean, according to the Bible Sarah was 90 when she had Isaac? 90 ?? Abraham lived to 175 ??

But what do we know about the minds of people several thousand years ago, or the liberties that were common in the telling of stories? I have heard that the Quran is like poetry - and the speed with which the Islamic faith converted peoples is partially attributed to the beauty of the book's prose - something that can't be appreciated when read in anything but Arabic.

I can only imagine this story told in Arabic:

"Abraham had left Mecca on God’s command, leaving Hagar and Ishmael with only some water and dates. Hagar nursed her son and they drank the remaining water. Soon thereafter, faced with great thirst, Ishmael started to cry and Hagar began to run between the hills of Safa and Marwa looking for water. She repeated the journey seven times until an angel appeared to her, striking the ground with his wing, with the result that the Zamzam spring, which Muslims consider as a tributary of the waters of Paradise, sprang forth. Henceforth Mecca was graced with a source of water which has continued flowing to this day."

Ironically, right after that passage is this, which is right where I wanted to go -

QUOTE
After the departure and return of Abraham to Mecca, and his discovery that Hagar had died, Abraham was then ordered by God to make Hagar’s house into a temple where people could pray. Therefore, he demolished the house and began construction of the Ka’ba. God gave Abraham precise instructions concerning how to rebuild the shrine and Gabriel showed him the location. It is said that by the grace of God the Divine Peace (al-sakinah) descended in the form of a wind which brought a cloud in the shape of a dragon that revealed to Abraham and Ishmael the site of the old temple. They were told to construct the shrine directly upon the shadow of the cloud, neither exceeding nor diminishing its dimensions. Legends say the shrine was built from the stones of five sacred mountains: Mt. Sinai, the Mount of Olives, Mt. Lebanon, Al-Judi, and nearby Mt. Hira. Upon the completion of the shrine, Gabriel brought a magic stone for the sanctuary. Different sources speculate that this stone was a meteorite or a great white sapphire from the Garden of Eden, that it had been concealed on the nearby sacred mountain of Abu Qubays during the period of the flood, and that it was later restored to Abraham for inclusion in his version of the Ka’ba. Whatever its ultimate origin, the stone was most probably a sacred object of the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads who had settled around the Zamzam spring that flows at the center of old Mecca. Upon completion of the Ka’ba, Abraham and Ishmael, accompanied by the archangel Gabriel, then performed all the elements which constitute the Hajj ritual of today

Now I am easily confused about all this, and I was searching around to find out where Isaac went, and I was surprised to read in this which isn't particularly worthy of reading really, but it said that "When Sarah and Abraham are in Egypt, on their way to the Promised Land, Hagar, an Egyptian girl, becomes a handmaiden for Sarah." ??? I thought Abraham was from Ur, which is in southern Iraq. Is Egypt on the way to the promised land? (Ahhhhh, the first historical proof that men don't like to ask directions tongue.gif )

I finally figured out that Isaac didn't go anywhere. They were already in the (present) West Bank.

From this, http://www.nisbett.com/people/bp-abraham.htm , Abraham settled in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron.html (30km south of Jeruselem) where all these events took place.

Seems Turturis was right on the money about the handmadens:

"Jacob was born of Isaac in Hebron, twin with Esau, he was married with Leah and Raquel, and had 12 children, the 12 tribes of Israel: 6 with Leah, 2 with Rachel, 2 with the the servant of Leah, and 2 with the servant of Rachel."

12 tribes of Israel anyone?

(PS. FL2, Specimen, waterbender, Facsinating about matriarchy in Egypt, Is Ra El, Zoroator etc... I'll have to read up)

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: ICE420 Jul 29 2006, 01:55 PM


I´m Atheist, but am interested to see peoples reactions and beliefs, especially not being biased to any side makes for a very interesting subject matter for debate and to see how people are going to deal with certain arguments



I think that Sanders Idea for this thread is a good one and one that will fuel a lot of attention.

popcorn.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 29 2006, 02:25 PM


Just want to make sure we are on the same page.
What is a Christian?
Please consider what God’s Word, the Bible has to say about the name "Christian". People in our society as well as those around the world have many ideas of what the term Christian means and where it came from. Many from other countries consider the United States of America to be a "Christian" nation. Years ago that term may have fit our nation but not any longer, at best we could be called a "Post Christian" country. As we will see from the Bible a Christian or a Christian nation should act like the name it bears.
Many who live and were born in America consider themselves to be Christians. Some simply because they were born here, others because they are not Muslim, Hindu, or some other religion. Most that would consider themselves to be Christian do so because they have gone to church and believe in certain creeds, teachings, and doctrines. Lets take these thoughts and ideas to the Bible and see how well they hold up.
First, lets see where the term Christian came from. In the book of Acts 11:26 "So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." This term Christian was not a complementary term. It was used in a derogatory way. But it identified those that were followers of Jesus Christ with Him. For you see the root word of Christian is Christ. The word Christian actually means "Christ like", a follower of Christ. Prior to this name which has become the most recognized name given to those that are followers of Jesus Christ, various other names were ascribed. Names such as "The Way", a "Sect", "Fools", and other unkind names.
Notice from the verse previously cited what Christians were known as prior to being called Christians, they were known as disciples. The word disciple comes from the Greek word "mathetes", which means: learner, follower, student, and disciple. Listen to the qualifications that Jesus gave for those that would be His disciples. In the Gospel of Mark 8:34-38 "When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Then in Matthew 10:37-39 Jesus tells us, "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
From these Scriptures, which is only a reflection of what Jesus has to say in many others verses, a Christian/disciple is one who: believes that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; who chooses to surrender his or her life to Jesus and His will; who chooses to love Jesus more than anything and anyone else; who chooses to turn his or her back on all else that they may follow Jesus, learn of Him, and become like Him.
According to the Bible the word disciple and Christian should be synonymous. Unfortunately this is not the case in our society today. A Christian is someone that goes to church and believes (makes an intellectual accent) to some truths about Jesus, but doesn’t let it affect his or her life too much. They don’t become a "fanatic" about this Jesus stuff. A disciple on the other hand is considered to be quite a bit more serious. They take God at His Word, they seek to live their life by what the Bible says, they are considered to be a little radical even fanatical. God makes no such distinctions in His Word. It is a tragedy that the church has made two classes if Christianity. It should not be so.
How does a person become a Christian? It is not by certain rites, rituals, or baptisms. The Bible tells us that we are born into it. Listen to what Jesus said to a very religious man by the name of Nicodemus in John 3:3, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." In much the same way a person becomes a member of a human family (by physical birth), a person becomes a member of God’s family through spiritual birth. The Bible uses the term Born Again or Born of the Spirit.
This takes place when a person recognizes that they are a sinner (a breaker of God’s Law), acknowledges and confesses their sin to God, asks for forgiveness, repents of his sin, turns to Jesus Christ in faith for Salvation, accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. It is all a matter of faith in the Wonderful Grace of God. As Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." God has done it all through His Son Jesus Christ. All you need do is turn to Him in faith. The moment a person does this he or she becomes a Christian.
For many this is far too simplistic. They say "There must be more, I must do something, I must do some kind of work, follow some rites or rituals. No! You can not do anything, only believe. I know this is a blow to man’s pride and ego. We like to think that we should have something to do with it. But we can’t, if we did we would for certain mess it up and it would cease to be grace. For you see grace is God’s unmerited favor toward mankind. If it could be earned, bought, or worked for it would no longer be grace. It would then be salvation based upon works and that is what "religion" is, man working his way to heaven. Heaven can never be obtained this way, because it says the sacrifice God gave in His Son is not enough. What a slap in the face of the Almighty God.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: BoneZ Jul 29 2006, 03:10 PM


tend to take a more scientific approach to religion. Here's a little sample of that research:

Clouds are the most common descriptions of the flying vehicles of the Elohiym. This is not surprising considering the probable size and density in daylight hours attributed to these objects. The word most often used in the Old Testament for cloud is `anan, pronounced aw-nawn'; a cloud (as covering the sky), i.e. the nimbus or thunder-cloud. The descriptions as a dark cloud, thick cloud, and dark water all allude to a solid object in the sky. Since there were no solid flying objects 2000 to 4000 years ago, and the only things close were thunder or storm clouds, this is a logical relation. For those that may cling to the belief that these are actually clouds, the flight characteristics, glowing at night, and other anomalous behavior, leaves such a narrow view very much in doubt. Perhaps the most important reference to clouds is that Jesus will return with an army in the clouds. If these clouds are not the fluffy kind, but very sophisticated flying craft, as the Bible records, then this would seem to have relevance to properly identifying that army. When Bible text says that Yhovah rides a swift cloud, are we to believe that he is literally sitting atop a cloud speeding through the sky? When the cloud turns to fire at night, are we to accept that it catches on fire, even though clouds can't burn? And when it stays in a stationary position for months, catching fire every night and burning out every morning, are we really talking about a cloud? No, this, or these, are not clouds. They are only named such because no one had ever heard about flying saucers, UFOs, spacecraft or star ships. They didn't even have balloons. The only big things in the sky during that time were clouds, so they called the objects clouds.

Exodus
34:5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord

Numbers
9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the Lord they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed. 21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed.

10:11 And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony. 12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.

1 Kings
18:44 And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab, Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down that the rain stop thee not.

Psalms
104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Isaiah
19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows

Matthew
17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Revelation
11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Acts
1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


mount

1. The act or manner of mounting.
2. A means of conveyance, such as a horse, on which to ride.
3. an opportunity to ride a horse in a race.
4. An object to which another is affixed or on which another is placed for accessibility, display, or use

Exodus
19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, {that ye} go {not} up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

(13) There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether {it be} beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

QUESTION.....
If this 'mount' is just a dirt and stone mountain, then how do you tell people not to touch a mountain? Where does a mountain start and stop?

Exodus
24:12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tablets of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
(13) And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
(18) And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into (not upon) the mount: and Moses was in (not on) the mount forty days and forty nights.

Exodus 32:19: And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands, and break them beneath the mount.

The question is, "How do you 'break them beneath a mountain'? You might break something on a mountain. How about this as an explanation, "And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, (He returned to the Spaceship. The door was shut.) and he cast the tablets out of his hands, and break them beneath the mount. (he threw them under the Spaceship breaking them beneath 'the mount'.)

Exodus 33:9: And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood {at} the door of the tabernacle, and {the Lord} talked with Moses.

You have seen rockets take off. They look like cloudy pillars ascending don't they? So, is this a possible explanation. "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, (A Shuttle Craft) and stood {at} the door of the tabernacle, and {the Lord} talked with Moses."

Here's a great link to look at some of this research:

http://www.bibleufo.com/

cheers.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM

Posted by: chewysguitar Jul 29 2006, 03:23 PM


I seriously do not believe this thread will survive without intense clashes that are very anti-religion.

Is there any way you can make a rule about not making fun of religion? That will only help, but I still think there is no way this thread will survive without a bunch of criticizing back and forth.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 04:37 PM

ICE420, thanks for the words of encouragement rolleyes.gif I worry if this thread was a bad idea or not. Ironically, I worry more about it going off in a million directions at once more than fights breaking out. As rude as it might be, I'm gonna keep trying to steer it in the direction of a chronological history...

Usediscernment, thanks for the well written post - I read it twice. I'll try to remember to copy and paste it if and when we ever get to A.D.

Not sure where UFO's fit into all this, but hey, I suppose I can believe that as soon as I'd believe that Isaac's mother was a novagenarian.

QUOTE
Is there any way you can make a rule about not making fun of religion?

Sure. Consider it a rule - No making fun of religion. (Does my reference to my shock at learning that Sarah bore Isaac at 90 constitute an infraction I wonder?)

Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, anyone?
Common, this is the start of the rich history of the Jews - in Egypt, of Moses, and in Canaan, of Soloman and David..
And what was going on in the Arab world all this time, or is that all irrelevant until Mohammed comes along much much later?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:37 PM)
Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, anyone?
Common, this is the start of the rich history of the Jews - in Egypt, of Moses, and in Canaan, of Soloman and David..
And what was going on in the Arab world all this time, or is that all irrelevant until Mohammed comes along much much later?

As for Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, Jacob had 12 sons, one who was a prophet named Joseph. According to the Qu'ran, Joseph (Arabic: Yusuf) was the son of Jacob (Arabic: Yaqub) and the great-grandson of Abraham (Arabic: Ibrahim). He was thus from a lineage of prophets, and had eleven brothers. At an early age, Joseph displayed signs of prophethood: he had a dream in which he saw eleven stars, the sun, and the moon, prostrating to him. His father, also a prophet, interpreted the dream to mean that his brothers, represented by the eleven stars, and the sun and moon, his mother and father, would bow down to his dignified position one day. Jacob also added that God would give him gifts such as dream interpretation, wisdom, grace, and honour, as well as make him a prophet.

Joseph's brothers were all jealous of his talents and the fact that their father favoured him over his other sons. They unanimously plotted to get rid of him by throwing him into a well to die. They asked their father's permission to take him out to play, who granted them their request, not wanting to isolate Joseph from his brothers. The brothers proceed with their plan and dropped him in a well and left him to die. They brought back Joseph’s shirt with them to tell their father that wolves have eaten Joseph. Jacob became very saddened at the disappearance of his son and eventually became blind.

Joseph was rescued by a passing caravan and sold into slavery in Egypt, to a rich man termed al-Aziz. The Quran names Joseph as a very attractive man (see 12:31). While working for al-Aziz, he was constantly approached by his al-Aziz's wife (Imra'at al-Aziz), she being intent on seducing him. Joseph continuously rebuffed her attempts, until one day, she became frustrated to the point where she chased him and tore the back of Joseph's shirt. Al-Aziz then walked in on the scene and became angered at what he was witnessing. Imra'at al-Aziz then proceeded to accuse Joseph of initiating the chase. A servant who witnessed the scene aided Joseph by pointing out the obvious: his shirt was torn from the back, meaning that she (Imra'at al-Aziz) was perusing Joseph, not the other way around. Being constantly put in incidents to test his faith and honour, Joseph prayed that he would rather be imprisoned that be placed through the constant ordeals he was put through.

After being imprisoned for a few years, God gave him the ability to interpret dreams, a power in which he became popular amongst the prisoners using. However, two cooks were envious of his ability, so they decided to try to fool him by making up dreams and asking him to interpret them. Joseph of course interpreted these dreams, saying that the King of Egypt would catch the cooks after they had done something illegal, one would be forgiven and the other killed. The two cooks later on secretly laughed thinking they had fooled Joseph.

A day later, under order of the King of Egypt soldiers came to take the two cooks away, the King said one would be forgiven, the other killed. The forgiven cook would work near the King, as his slave. One day the King awakening from sleep told the forgiven cook about his very interesting dream, and about what it could mean. The forgiven cook was quick to say that there was a man in prison that could interpret dreams. The King immediately called Joseph, and told him that if he were to interpret this dream correctly he would become his advisor, freed from prison, however if he interpreted it incorrectly he would be killed.

Joseph went on to tell the King that his dream mean that Egypt would suffer a few years drought, and that the King should get ready for it. However, later on there would be very bountiful harvests, the same amount of years as the drought lasted. His interpretation turned out correct.

Joseph eventually went on to become a prominent advisor to the King of Egypt. Later on, he would once again run into his brothers whom he would forgive. He would also find his father (Jacob) only to find out that he has become blind after crying so much over the disappearance him (Joseph). However, Joseph would then fix his fathers blindness. Joseph would end up dying in Egypt. Tradition holds that when Moses (Arabic: Musa) left Egypt, he took Joseph's coffin with him so that he would be buried alongside his ancestors in Canaan.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 05:03 PM

Do you not see that God became angered by the Children of Israel (who had become Jews)? According to the Qur'an, he sent many prophets and messengers to guide them to the straight path, but they killed so many of them. He sent them Prophet Jesus, and even they planned a plot to kill Prophet Jesus, but God saved Prophet Jesus and lifted him to Heaven. God's curse was upon the Jews as a result.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 05:07 PM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 29 2006 @ 08:04 AM)
isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?

That is a very common supposition pr0mythius.

However, if we look a little closer at the concept we can see that it doesn't actually work.

For example, there have been many great philosopers who have had exceedingly wise insights into reality but few if any people have been inclined to lay their life on the line for the teachings of those philosophers.

With religion on the other hand, history demonstrates that wise, cleanly, calm, gentle people will willingly lay down their lives rather than give up their faith.

During the 1800s over 20,000 Baha'is were killed by the authorities in Persia who wanted to squash the religion. And history is replete with the early Muslims, Christians and Jews who valiantly laid down their lives for their faith.

Thus, holy Prophets of God inspire in Their followers a love and devotion that is supernatural.

---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I don't have anything to add to the history bit Sanders. My knowledge of religious history is based mainly on what They stood for rather than an accurate chronological sequence.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 05:28 PM

GM10, thanks for the excellent 1st post thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif
Pontormo did a whole series on Joseph
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG6451
As for the second post, (God's curse was upon the Jews...), thumbdown.gif
Keep a lid on it, ok? I'll indulge you this - is that your own commentary on that, or is does that reflect what is written in the Qu'ran? Just tell me which, no need to elaborate. Thanks.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 29 2006 @ 05:07 PM)
---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

That story is identcal with the one in the Qur'an. His father, however, still refused to stop his idol worshipping and even carried out an act of killing of Abraham and threw him into a big fire, but God protected Abraham from being burned. After that, Abraham left the idol worshippers.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 29 2006, 06:44 PM

Sanders, where should I start? Are we past the Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac/Sarah/Hagar stage?

Or we still on the Sumerian/Materialist stage? Did we skip the Creationist, Adam/Eve stage?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 03:44 AM)
Sanders, where should I start? Are we past the Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac/Sarah/Hagar stage?

Or we still on the Sumerian/Materialist stage? Did we skip the Creationist, Adam/Eve stage? 

Dunno, I was hoping to get through this old testament stuff as quick as possible - to me the most pertinent stuff is the Jewish claim to Palestine, the rise of Islam, and the Crusades. But I thought everything from Abraham on should be covered at least briefly. This thread might die long before we get to the Caliphs or any of that but I'm enjoying it so far...

Add anything you think is material - and yeah, I skipped the Adam and Eve part - I want to talk about how the 3 religions are connected and have interreacted with each other over the milleniums. I was hoping to do it sequentially to keep some order to it, that's all. Funny though, once you start getting into it I can see how it might take forever.

Add what you want -

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 02:52 AM

Defying the God of the bible, and the God of the Kuran...

The biblical God is called Yahweh (or Jehovah) nearly 9,000 times. Yet Allah is not called by that name even once in the Koran. Why not, if Allah is the same God? God is also referred to as Elohim more than 2,500 times in the Bible, but again that word never appears for Allah in the Koran. Why? The God of the Bible is called "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob/Israel" (Jacob's name was changed by God to Israel later in life, so he is referred to by either name). He is the father of the Jews. The God of the Bible revealed himself to Moses at the burning bush by this name ("God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel") and told Moses, "this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Ex 3:1-16). If Allah is the God of the Bible, why is he never called by these names?

The God of the Bible tells us again and again that He is the God of the Jews. Many times He is called "the God of Israel." Yet there is such hatred for Israel among Muslims! The Koran talks about Abraham and Ishmael, even claims they built the Ka'aba, but gives Isaac no prominence. The Bible mentions Isaac favorably and prominently more than 150 times. God very clearly says that His covenant is with Isaac, not with Ishmael (Gn 17:19-21), from whom the Arabs claim they are descended.

The God of the Bible calls the Jews His chosen people. He loves them and gave the land of Israel to them as an heritage forever, as hundreds of verses in the Bible declare. Islam denies this basic biblical truth. The Jews are certainly not Allah's chosen people! How can Allah be the God of the Bible, yet not choose the Jews?

In the Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends" (Surah 5:51, Al Hil-ali, v. 54, Jusuf ali), so Allah is not the God of the Christians either. In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Jehovah, Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!

The God of the Bible chose Jerusalem as His holy city. Forty times He calls Jerusalem "the city of David" and repeatedly He promises that the Messiah will be descended from David and will rule on David's throne in Jerusalem over the whole world (2 Chr 6:6; 33:7; 2 Sm 7:16; Ps 89:3-29, etc.). Never does the Bible (or the God of the Bible) mention Mecca or Medina, but Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times. Yet Allah never mentions Jerusalem. How can this be if Allah is the God of the Bible? And how can the Muslims today claim Jerusalem as a holy city of Islam, when it isn't even mentioned in the Koran? That recent claim comes from those who want to take that city from the Jews.

That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Prv 30:4). The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), "And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name jesus. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Lk 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca.

Muslims insist that the name "Allah" must be used in every language; it cannot be translated Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French, or God in English. Muslims thus treat "Allah" not as a generic word for God, but as the name of a particular god. In fact, Allah was the god of the Kuraish tribe centuries before Muhammad was born. You deny that he was the chief god in the Ka'aba, but you admit there were for centuries 360 idols in the Ka'aba and one of these was called Allah. What is Allah doing in a temple among 360 idols if he is the God of the Bible, who forbids idolatry? Why does Islam keep this idol temple, and why must Muslims to this day make a pilgrimage there?

That Allah was the chief idol in the Ka'aba is documented history. Let me quote one of the greatest historians:

The desert Arab...feared and worshiped incalculable deities in stars and moons. ...Now and then he offered human sacrifice; and here and there he worshiped sacred stones. The center of this stone worship was Mecca [with] the Ka'aba and its sacred Black Stone...in its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing....

Within the Ka'aba, in pre-Moslem days, were several idols representing gods. One was called Allah...three others were Allah's daughtersal-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah. We may judge the antiquity of this Arab pantheon from the mention of Al-il-Lat (Al-Lat) by Herodotus [fifth-century b.c. Greek historian] as a major Arabian deity. The Quraish [Muhammad's tribe controlling Mecca] paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god; He was presented to the Meccans as the Lord of their soil, to Whom they must pay a tithe of their crops and the first-born of their herds. The Quraish, as alleged descendants of Abraham and Ishmael, appointed the priests and guardians of the shrine and managed its revenues (Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," IV: 160-61).


The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals?

You say "Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus...." Do you think Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. journeyed to the idol temple, the Ka'aba, and kissed its Black Stone? Impossible! Not one follower of the God of the Bible would ever have gone near the Ka'aba, because the God of the Bible forbids any association with idols; and you admit (as history tells us) that the Ka'aba was filled with idols before Muhammad destroyed them all. In history and the Bible, you will find no mention of Islam or any religion like it. How could you have Islam without the Koran and Muhammad?

The only people who journeyed to the Ka'aba and kissed the Black Stone were pagan Arabs who worshiped one or more of the idols within and around it. Muhammad started a new religion called Islam to which Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Turks and everyone else in the region had to convert at the point of the sword. They became Muslims, and there is no way you can say that Islam was the original religion of that or any other region.

I've been asked to explain, "The God of the Bible is love, an impossibility for Allah." If Allah is a single being, as Muslims insist, then he cannot be love in and of himself, because he had no one to love until he created others; but the God of the Bible is love in and of Himself because He is three Persons but One God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit loved and communed with one another before men or angels were created.

While the Jews know that Allah is not Jehovah, they try to say (as Muslims do for Allah) that Jehovah is a single being. If so, then why does the Bible refer to Him more than 2,500 times with the plural Elohim (gods)? Interestingly, however, always with the plural noun there is a singular verb. One cannot escape the plurality combined with singularity repeatedly used.

The famous shema (Dt 6:4), the most fundamental saying about God for a Jew, declares, "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah." Far from declaring that the God of the Bible is a singular being, the Hebrew word translated "one" is echad, which means a unity of several becoming one, as when God said the man and woman became "one [echad] flesh" (Gn 2:24); when many soldiers became "one [echad] troop" (2 Sm 2:25) or when two sticks became "one [echad] stick" (Ezk 37:17) etc.

The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. The Koran does say that Allah loves "the beneficent" (Surah 2:195), "the stedfast [and] those whose deeds are good" (Surah 3:146-48), and "those who battle for his cause" (Surah 61:4). But never does it say he loves all mankind, much less sinners; but the God of the Bible loves sinners, even those who hate Him. Allah is said to be merciful, but he does not show mercy to those who need it. The God of the Bible, however, is merciful to all, ready to forgive confessed sin.

The first of the Ten Commandments is that we are to love the God of the Bible with our whole heart; but never does the Koran say a Muslim is to love Allah. You cannot love Allah, because he is unknowable. The God of the Bible can be known and repeatedly calls upon men to know Him; but the Koran says no one can know Allah because he is too great. In spite of being infinite, without beginning and end, and the Creator of the universe, the biblical God reveals himself so that men can know Him. Jesus himself said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Those who don't know the God of the Bible are lost eternally. No one knows Allah.

The Bible is filled with prophecies of the coming of Messiah Jesus, but there is not one such prophecy in the Koran for Jesus or Muhammad. In fact, the Koran was written after Muhammad came, so it could not prophesy his coming, but the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus centuries and even thousands of years beforehand. The Jewish prophets in the Old Testament said the Messiah would be crucified and rise from the dead the third day. Jesus came at exactly the time prophesied and died for the sins of the world, as the Bible says over and over. But the Koran contradicts this and says He didn't die on the cross at all, much less for our sins. The Bible says that the penalty for sin must be paid and that God himself had to come as a man to die for our sins. Allah did not do that.

How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them.

You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 03:02 AM

AAAHH... a question about "PALESTINE"

This small region was also referred to as Philistia (Ps 60:8; 87:4, 108:9). It was clearly not “synonymous with the land of Canaan” and did not indicate “the whole region, including both Judaea and Samaria.” On the contrary, it referred specifically to the land of the Pelishtee, or Philistines, in the same location but a bit larger than the Gaza Strip of today, named after the Philis-tine city of Gaza. Their other cities were Ashdod, Gath (home of Goliath), Gerar and Ekron. They were not Semitic people, but invaded Canaan by sea from across the Mediterranean and occupied that particular area before the Israelites arrived.

Thus even the Phil-istines were not the “original inhabitants of the land,” but displaced others just as they were eventually displaced by Israel. Nor can the Arabs living there today (who are Semites) claim any ethnic, linguistic or historical relationship to the Philistines or on any other basis justify calling themselves Palestinians.

Exodus 15:14,15 makes it clear that Palestina is not “synonymous with the land of Canaan.” On the contrary, “the inhabitants of Palestina” are distinguished from “all the inhabitants of Canaan.” It is also clear that Isaiah 14:29, 31 do not refer to the land of Israel from the fact that the passage promises blessing to Israel and pronounces destruction upon Palestina (along with Babylon, Assyria, Moab, et al.). To “kill thy root... [and] slay thy remnant” (v. 30) foretells the end of Palestina (i.e., the Philistines and their descendants). This is in clear contrast to “the Lord hath founded Zion [Israel]” (v. 32), and the many promises of Israel’s everlasting possession of that land.

The “whole region” of the promised land is called “the land of Israel” 31 times in Scripture. Scores of other times “Israel” means both the people and the land. It is an insult to God and to His people to whom He gave this land to call Israel after her chief enemies, the Philistines!

Sadly, most Bibles promote this fraud. Maps in the back of the Scofield reference Bible show “Palestine under the Maccabees” and “Palestine in the time of Christ.” In fact, the land God gave to His chosen people was known only as Israel until A.D. 135, when the Romans angrily renamed it Palestine after the Philistines to spite the Jews (see TBC reprints Sep ’00). Let us not honor Israel’s enemies by calling the promised land of Israel, which God says is His land (Lv 25:23), by the pagan name “Palestine”! And let us oppose the fraudulent claims of those today who illegally call themselves Palestinians.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 03:40 AM

Okay, let me first say that it is false that Muslims claim that "Allah" cannot be translated into different languages. Some are hesistant to do such a thing like call "Allah" "God" because the name God can be pluralized or have a gender by adding an "s" or "dess", whereas the name "Allah" cannot. Because of this, they believe that the name "Allah" seems to be the proper name for God. However, most Muslims believe you can say "God." Just that "Allah" seems to be better to use. The God in the Bible calls Himself "Yahweh," "Jehovah," and "Elohim" in the Bible because it is revealed in Hebrew. To say that Muslims worship a different "God" because they say "Allah" is just as illogical as saying that French people worship another God because they use the word "Dieu", that Spanish-speaking people worship a different God because they say "Dios" or that the Hebrews worshipped a different God because they sometimes call Him "Yahweh". Certainly, reasoning like this is quite ridiculous! It should also be mentioned, that claiming that any one language uses the only the correct word for God is tantamount to denying the universality of God's message to mankind, which was to all nations, tribes and people through various prophets who spoke different languages. be aware of the fact that some Christian missionary organizations print English literature intended to teach Christians about Islam which say such things as: "Allah is the god of the Muslims" and that "Muhammad came to get people to believe in the god Allah" - implying that "Allah" is some sort of false "god". However, when these same organizations print literature in the Arabic language, hoping to lead Arabic-speaking Muslims "to Christ", they use the word "Allah" for God. It seems that if they were on the side of truth, they would not have to resort to such inconsistencies. And on an even more ridiculous note . . . there are also missionary organizations that exceed this in ignorance (or deceit) by writing books that call on Muslims to give up their belief in "Allah", and instead worship the "Lord" Jesus, "the Son of God". Besides making it abundantly clear that they are outside the community of Pure Monotheism, the people who write such material don't even realize that if they wrote such a pamphlet in Arabic, it would be self-contradictory. This is because in an Arabic Bible Jesus is the "Son of Allah"! If an Arabic-speaking person gave up the worship of "Allah", they would have no God to worship, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for God! The Hebrew speaking ones of course called Him "Yahweh" or "Jehovah", which means "The LORD" or "GOD". "Yahweh" is a Hebrew-language word. "Allah" is both Arabic and Aramaic. And yes, God mentions Himself as "Yahweh" in the Qur'an. "Yahweh" is mentioned in the Qur'an when God says He is the Lord. "Yahweh" means Lord. "Jehovah" means God. So when He says Al- Rabb, it means "Lord" in Arabic, which is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" in Hebrew. When He says Allah, it means "God" in Arabic, which is "Elohim" in Hebrew. You are using false language theories. So yes He does use these names to describe Himself, but only in a different language. Another false thing you say about the Koran is that God favors Ishmael over Isaac and that no prominence is given to Isaac. God says in the Koran to not make any differentiate between any of His prophets and messengers. And besides, Isaac's life is mentioned more in the Koran than Ishmael. Ishmael was the father of the Arabs and Isaac is the father of the Israelis. God made prophets out of Isaac's children. Jacob was his son and was a prophet. Joseph was a prophet and was his grandson. God sent Moses and Jesus to the Children of Israel (who were Jews). He sent prophets and messengers to the Jews, but they slain so many. So God became angry with them and His curse was upon them. That is why before 1948, so many Jews were scattered around the world. His curse was upon them. He gave them too many chances, and once they plotted to kill Jesus, He saved Prophet Jesus and lifted him to Heaven. That was their last strike. So God sent a prophet to the Arabs. He sent Muhammad as His last messenger and prophet. Through this, the Arabs were saved and Muhammad sent a universal message. God says in the Koran that He did indeed make a covenant with Abraham, but that they broke it. The Jews became wrong doers. "The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals?" The Black Stone is not to be kissed. Don't judge a car by its driver. Those rituals were not practiced by Pagan Arabs. Muhammad chased out all of the idol worshippers and destroyed all 360 idols. As for Allah, that is false that He was an idol. He was believed to be the Supreme God that no one can see, but they sinned through associating partners with Him. That is why God sent Muhammad to them and the world. No doubt that the Children of Israel were God's chosen people, but they have deceived Him, and for that, His curse was upon the Jews. That is why there will be a war between Muslims and Jews. As for the verses you throw at me from the Bible, we don't believe in many of them because we believe they have been perverted. They were right originally, but not anymore. Like how the Bible mentions that Jesus is the son of God, that is wrong. It never originally stated that, but the Jews and Christians changed it. That is why God sent the Qur'an, the protected revelation. It has never been perverted. It holds no inconsistencies, unlike the Bible. The Bible holds many self contradictions and yet further proves that it cannot be the Word of God today. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html Also,
to refute that God wants us to hate Christians and Muslims, read this verse "5:5 This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter." You need to know the timing of when a verse came. God also mentions many times in the Koran of how He is pleased by many pious Jews and Christians. He does not want us to fight you. Also explain how Arab Christians and Arab Jews use "Allah" to say "God."

"How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them.

You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?"

Okay, here goes, God does save sinners when they repent. It would not be unjust to forgive the guilty if they feel guilty and repent. God explains the penalty as Hell for sinners, except for those whom He forgives. It is true, no Muslim can be sure that God will forgive him because only God knows. God is loving in the Koran. He is "The Merciful" and sent many prophets and messengers as a mercy for mankind. No one can be sure that there sins can be forgiven, except God but you are only to repent once, never do the sin again, and forget you ever did it. If you don't believe you will ever be forgiven, then you have taken the attribute of "The Merciful" and the "The Oft Forgiving" out of God. You sin through doing that. God didn't say that "Let Us make man in Our image" because that is idolatry to believe that you look like God. No one knows what God truly looks like. It is idolatry to draw a picture of Him.

"The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. "

Another lie. Al-Wadud (ÇáæÏæÏ) The Loving, the Kind One.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 03:50 AM

Hey, usediscernment, you need to understand that we believe in the same One God, but we have different concepts about Him. Just quit saying that "Allah" is a separate deity, for that is false. It is not true that "Allah" is supposed to be used in every language. That is false. Many Muslims do that because they are ignorant, but again, don't judge a car by its driver. And I have some questions about how you believe in God (notice how I didn't say your God). In the Bible, you believe that God got drunk. Explain this: Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 78:65)" Come on now, this is really ludicrous! If GOD gets drunk and/or goes to sleep, then what kind of a god is He?! No offense to any Jew or Christian, but please answer this. "Then the Lord AWOKE......" is pretty much clear and self explanatory! He may not "sleep" like we do, but he certainly appears to have been away or not knowing or not controlling of His Creation at that time or moment! Now, you might say that this is only symbolic and I shouldn't take it literally from the Bible. Well first of all, isn't GOD Almighty supposed to be formal and "professional" as we say it today, with us? If you want to consider the entire Bible as the perfect book of GOD Almighty, then you must take everything in it formally. The Bible also claims that the earth is set firm on pillars and it never moves. How can I take this claim symbolically and not seriously when we know today that the earth is an egg-shaped sphere, and doesn't stand on any pillars, and it certainly does move?! By the way, the Noble Quran does claim that the earth is "egg-shaped", and it does swim in space along with the other planets and stars. It also claimed that the space is "expanding" as it was scientifically proven to be true. Science is on the Koran's side, and not the Bible's so people who are really knowlegeable in science will realize that the Koran is more accurate in science and is more consistent. The Bible contains numerous ridiculous contradictions. For instance:

"And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. (From the KJV Bible, 1 Kings 4:26)"

"And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem. (From the KJV Bible, 2 Chronicles 9:25)"

Explain that.
Now any normal reader would raise this simple question: How many stalls of horses did King Solomon have?

Can the Bible give a definite answer to this? No!

It's not the number or the piece of information that is important here. No body really cares about how many stalls of horses Solomon had. But the serious issue here is that how on earth can we trust that either the book of Kings or Chronicles were truly inspired by GOD Almighty?!
Anyway, to further prove that the above Psalm 78:65 verse from the bible is a bunch of garbage, it is important to know that neither of the bible's books and gospels are really valid. The authors of the books and gospels of the bible are unknown. Let's see the proof for ourselves:

The books of Psalm:

The following quotes were taken from the article "Just who were the real authors of the Bible?" Today's Books and Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments from the NIV Bible itself! Just why in the world should I believe in today's Bible?

The Bibliography of the NIV Bible that I used is listed in the above link.

"Regarding authorship, opinions are even more divided. The notations themselves are ambiguous since the Hebrew phraseology used, meaning in general "belonging to", an also be taken in the sense of "concerning" or "for the use of" or "dedicated to". The name may refer to the title of a collection of Psalms that had been gathered under a certain name. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 773)"

"The Psalms consist of one hundred fifty poems of Israel written at different times by different authors, though mainly by David, around 1000 B.C.
..........
Because of the vast range of human feelings expressed in the Psalms, this book remains one of the best loved and most used books of the Bible. (From the King James Version Bible Commentary, page 801)"

As we clearly see above from the NIV and KJV Bibles' commentaries, this book can not be considered as the True Words of GOD Almighty, because it was written by many unknown authors! There is no proof that these authors were True Messengers of GOD Almighty. Another corruption and man-made alterations had invaded the Bible and corrupted it.

This corrupted book claims that the Earth is flat and never moves:

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

Since when the Earth is flat and can never move?! We all know that the Earth and the other planets rotate and move in space around the Sun.

For those Jews and Christians who would like to see where in the Noble Quran does Allah Almighty say that the planets in space rotate and move, read the following Noble Verse:

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion. (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"


Explain all of that. Enough of your false claims of "Allah" and "God" being different gods. Don't try to mess with the Koran, when you should look at the Bible first. I still have much more to say about the Bible, but I'll wait for you to answer these unanswerable questions.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 04:41 AM

To Usediscernment,

Thanks for the posts, but we don't need this. Do you realise what you are saying? Think about it for a second. You are saying Muslims don't worship the same God because they call him(/her?) by a different name. If anything, the Bible is more confused about who/what he is because they never settle on a single name ! But that's not the point. In actuality, Muslims worship the same God, Islam believes in many of the same things and events and prophets as Christians and Jews because the religions all grew from the SAME SOURCE

The Japanese go to a shrine, clap their hands 3 times throw money into a pit, pray to a god of prosperity and hope that their business will do well. They're PAGANS by any definition. Do you feel anger toward them for that?

I live in Japan, I can assure you they are very nice, interesting people. Should we bomb Tokyo once more because they are all 'infidels'? No, that's ridiculous. Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? Wait till we get to the Crusades, when the Pope told Christians all over Europe to go to the Holy Land and kill as many Muslim infidels as they can - that they would be forgiven their sins and go to heaven if they killed Muslims (!!!???!!!). It is pure insanity. The Jihad that resulted is still in effect today, a thousand years later, and the ripple effect of that state-religious sponsored propoganda is still alive in the hearts of Christians ... Bush and Co. are trying (fairly successfully I might add) to revive it. When George Bush Sr. bombed Baghdad in 1990 the Arab headlines proclaimed 'Crusade!!!'. They were probably right, this is probably just another instance of Christians going to the Holy Land to kill infidels. The invaders aren't representing Christianity per-se, they are representing "America", and it wasn't enough for the Pope to make a speech, they needed 9/11 and a lot of malarky about WMD to convice them it was the right thing to do, but there are almost as many similarities between the two as there are between the Bible and the Koran, if you get my drift.

Anyway, this is NOT a thread about who worships the true God, if you want to post, get with the program. Here we are abolutely TOLERANT about what other people believe, it is the only road to peace. If you don't GET it, read the first post one more time. If you don't understand what tolerant means, look it up in the dictionary, you're a grown up. OK? Got it?

Great Muslim gets a reprieve, he was rebutting.

With all due respect and good will, THIS STOPS NOW.

Thanks

I'm cool with GM10's account of Joseph being sold into slavery - any problems? How does it get from there to Moses taking the Jews out of Egypt? Did Joseph just represent one of the 12 tribes? Were all of Moses' jews descendants of Joseph?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 04:51 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...???


I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)

Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak.


doh1.gif

From the CHRISTIAN point of view ! I know, I know, I meant that "from the Christian point of view", Arabs 'got the name wrong'. Don't take it seriously - I was making a point... that's not what I meant.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 05:11 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
I'm cool with GM10's account of Joseph being sold into slavery - any problems? How it get from there to Moses taking the Jews out of Egypt?  Did Joseph just represent one of the 12 tribes?  Were all of Moses' jews descendants of Joseph? 

About going from the Joseph story to Moses taking the Israelis out of Egypt, it was just a fun fact thrown in at the end. It really had no significance to the story of Joseph. Yes, Joseph represents one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure if all of Moses Israeli descendants were of Joseph. As for why I say Israelis instead of Jews is because God calls them the Children of Israel in the Qur'an. Those children of Israel, however, have become Jews and they are the Jews of today. God mentions how He chose the Children of Israel many times in the Qur'an and how they deceived Him and broke the covenant which He made with Abraham. Which prophet would you like to talk about next? And just for the record, we believe that all prophets and messengers of God were Muslims. We believe that to be a Muslim before the descension of the Qur'an and the coming of the final prophet and messenger, Muhammad, you had to believe in One God, the revelations (or holy books sent by God to His messengers), in angels of God, prophets and messengers of God, the afterlife (including Heaven, Hell, Judgement Day and Day of Resurrection, and etc.), and predestination. So if you lived during the time of Moses, to be a Muslim, you would have had to believe in God, believed in the previous prophets and messengers (including Adam, Noah, Abraham, and etc.), you would also have to believe that Moses was a prophet and messenger of God, and you would have to believe in and follow the Torah. In Jesus's time, you would have had to believe in the previous prophets and messengers, including Jesus, believe in God, of course, and believe in the Torah, believe in the Psalms, and believe in and follow the Gospel. The term Jews and Christians don't apply to prophets and messengers of God in Islam. We don't believe that Islam was created and founded by Muhammad. We believe it has always existed and to have been a Muslim you would have had to do what is mentioned above.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 05:13 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 05:01 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak. 

doh1.gif

From the CHRISTIAN point of view ! I know, I know, I meant that "from the Christian point of view", Arabs 'got the name wrong'. Don't take it seriously - I was making a point... that's not what I meant.

Wait, I don't get it. Do Christians believe we got the name wrong? I'm not upset, I'm just really curious.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 02:13 PM)
Do Christians believe we got the name wrong?  I'm not upset, I'm just really curious.

I have no idea - I doubt it. I was just addressing what usediscernment was saying, speaking from that viewpoint to show the absurdity of it. let's just let it go...?

I've been scratching my head, trying to figure out why Joseph's name isn't on the maps of the 12 tribes, even though he's one of the 12 male children

I found this that explains it
http://goodnewschristianministry.org/twelvetribes.htm

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 06:23 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
In actuallity, Muslims worship the same God, Islam believes in many of the same things and events and prophets as Christians and Jews because the religions all grew from the SAME SOURCE

Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

First off, Sanders, since you are the referee here, userdiscernment's demonizing Islam is done with hateful intent. As well, he is instigating once again with sheer ignorance for the purpose of polarization in this forum. I don't want to bring polemics into this debate, but if you allow me, I would counter every argument he has against Islam. His arguments are the same ordure that you can find in the anti-islam sites on the net. He should have given credit where it was given.

Next: I quoted you above and edited the rest from your post. Muslims believe in the same creator and God as the Jews and Christians, but the Christian would counter argue and disagree. They claim that the Muslim's God is different because "He" is not anthropomorphic as is the Christian God and doesn't have a "Son". Hence, there can be an apparent difference and perception of 2 different gods.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM

Posted by: pr0mythiuJul 30 2006, 06:35 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 29 2006 @ 05:07 PM)
QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 29 2006 @ 08:04 AM)

isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?



That is a very common supposition pr0mythius.

However, if we look a little closer at the concept we can see that it doesn't actually work.

For example, there have been many great philosopers who have had exceedingly wise insights into reality but few if any people have been inclined to lay their life on the line for the teachings of those philosophers.

With religion on the other hand, history demonstrates that wise, cleanly, calm, gentle people will willingly lay down their lives rather than give up their faith.

During the 1800s over 20,000 Baha'is were killed by the authorities in Persia who wanted to squash the religion. And history is replete with the early Muslims, Christians and Jews who valiantly laid down their lives for their faith.

Thus, holy Prophets of God inspire in Their followers a love and devotion that is supernatural.

---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I don't have anything to add to the history bit Sanders. My knowledge of religious history is based mainly on what They stood for rather than an accurate chronological sequence.

ok i've fallen behind on this thread ... but basically what you're saying .. is that the diff between and philosopher and a prophet .. is that many people will die for what a prophet has said?

hmmmm ... in that case ... prophets are evil. perhaps they didnt want people to kill because of what they prophecied ... but .. yea .. thats kinda messed up ... anyone that would kill someone just because they dont agree with what some other person said ... is off thier freaking rocker.

once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. dont mean to sound quite so blunt ...... well ... then again ... yea i do. i would say i have a way better than average concept of "god" ... and to think that god would sign off on the destruction of anyone is f*@king rediculous.

least thats what i think.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 06:40 AM

QUOTE
once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.


The Holy War is a myth propagated for those that hate religion. Take a look at Islam for example.

In Islam there is no such thing as HOLY WAR. It is the common myth to translate Jihad as a Holy War. Show me in the Qur'an where Jihad means and translates to Holy War.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM

Posted by: pr0mythiusJul 30 2006, 06:51 AM


i've always considered that the fighting muslims have been a part of had nothing to do with religion. but just the christians and thier crusades and such seem to feed off the term holy war ... like its some self-righteous action.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:04 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 06:51 AM)
i've always considered that the fighting muslims have been a part of had nothing to do with religion.  but just the christians and thier crusades and such seem to feed off the term holy war ... like its some self-righteous action.

War is ordained by God in all the Abrahamic religions in one shape or form. But terming it Holy War is mainstream bandwagon propaganda.

With regards to Islam, jihad can be seen in terms of fighting (Qital in `Arabic). Jihad comes from juhd, meaning struggle. The traditionalists and mufassirin (Quranic commentators) have translated the term Jihad to mean fight. Jihad may have other meanings. Jihad can be a struggle to overcome against one's desires (nafs). Jihad has to be seen in context in the Qur'an as well as in hadith (Muhammad's sayings, actions, etc.) literature to render its proper meaning. If you study classical Islam and the Shari'ah, there are detailed explanations of Jihad by scholars (when it can be done, by whom, obligatory or not, offensive or defensive, not compulsory until the advent of the Mahdi, etc.).

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 07:07 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:04 AM)
War is ordained by God in all the Abrahamic religions in one shape or form. But terming it Holy War is mainstream bandwagon propaganda.


god wants war? blink.gif
what god do you recognize ... are we talking about the same entity?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:11 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:07 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:04 AM)
War is ordained by God in all the Abrahamic religions in one shape or form.  But terming it Holy War is mainstream bandwagon propaganda.

god wants war?
what god do you recognize ... are we talking about the same entity?

Well religion, in this case the 3 Abrahamic ones, are thought to be revelations from God by their particular followers.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Posted: Jul 30 2006, 07:15 AM


yea ... by the followers ... we're supposed to put our stock in the interpretation of these people? until i see probable cause to think otherwise ... organised religion is just a tool to control the masses.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:18 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:15 AM)
yea ... by the followers ... we're supposed to put our stock in the interpretation of these people? until i see probable cause to think otherwise ... organised religion is just a tool to control the masses.


That is the ancient materialistic/marxist approach. That has no effect on the "believers".

If wars are justified by the rhetoric of God, then one would not be in a loss if followed, specifically if a catastrophe falls upon him and his family? Should he not defend his family and possessions?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 07:18 AM

OK, I've fallen behind. I haven't read the last few posts yet but I'll post this before I get even more behind while I read them...

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 03:23 PM)
I don't want to bring polemics into this debate, but if you allow me, I would counter every argument he has against Islam....


Let's not. - what I'm trying to say to usediscernment isn't whether he's right or wrong about the Muslim God being HIS God or not, it's that telling someone else that what they believe is wrong is counterproductive. I have to respect undiscernment and allow HIM to believe whatever he wants. If we're lucky, some people will learn that Islam is not so different from Judaeo-Christian religions - but you'll never teach anyone anything by arguing about it, you just make people defend their positions more strongly. Let it go. No one wins these battles, unless they chose not to fight them.

If anyone can explain it to me, how'd all the jews wind up in Egypt? I figured out that Jacob and his other sons went to Egypt during a drought, but they didn't stay, right? They had to "populate" the tribes, right? These were the only jews on the planet, this little family, right? Moses was from the tribe of Levi (separated from the story of Joseph in Egypt by about 3 or 400 years? ), how'd he wind up born in Egypt? Why are all these jews flocking to Egypt to be slaves? Did the Pharos come and capture them? And when Moses leads them all back, all the stories give the impression that the promised land is empty of jews. Is this true? Where'd they all go? I know they weren't scattered by the Assyrian invasion, that doesn't happen for another 800 years or so, after Solomon and all of that... How strong is the Jewish argument that they were given this land by God if they kept packing up and leaving? Or did they not leave, were Moses' jews with their 10 commandments just a small part of the jewish population after that?? Forgive me for being daft and asking stupid questions, - but I bet most people don't know the answers to them. I could look it up, but I'm sure there are plenty of posters that could explain it easily...

Onegai

(Onegai is Japanese - it means 'please', kind of. More like, "I humbly beg you to be good to me" but it doesn't come off wierd like that. More like sayin, "cool?")

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:30 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:18 AM)
Let's not. - what I'm trying to say to usediscernment isn't whether he's right or wrong about the Muslim God being HIS God or not, it's that telling someone else that what they believe is wrong is counterproductive. I have to respect undiscernment and allow HIM to believe whatever he wants. If we're lucky, some people will learn that Islam is not so different from Judaeo-Christian religions - but you'll never teach anyone anything by arguing about it, you just make people defend their positions more strongly. Let it go. No one wins these battles, unless they chose not to fight them.


Everyone has the right to believe what they wish, including usediscernment and anyone else.

I agree to the point in terms of coming together that we should not say "you are wrong" and "I am right". But my thought and intent was to give rebuttals to the ridiculous judgements usediscernment has regarding Islam. That can have a negative effect. If it stays as it is, then it may be believable and accepted as true.

There are different approaches to everything.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:38 AM

QUOTE
If anyone can explain it to me, how'd all the jews wind up in Egypt?


Well Joseph, Jacob's son, was shipped to Egypt by his brothers as a slave. Islam and the Old Testament both agree to the jealousy that resonated amongst Joseph's brothers.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 07:49 AM

QUOTE (prOmythias)
and to think that god would sign off on the destruction of anyone is f*@king rediculous.

least thats what i think.

Yeah, I think so too. Ridiculous, but, unfortunately there is a long-held belief with some (backed up by passages in the Bible) that God has said (actually PEOPLE said that God said, or what people thought that they'd like for God to have said to justify what they did or were going to do...) to peoples, (I'm paraphrasing) believe in me and only me and for anyone who doesn't, it's ok to kill them. I'm no old-testement scholar, but I am sure there are passages that justify the Israelite's displacing the Canaanites by their primacy there being ordained by God. ...There was a great slaughter of the indigenous peoples of Canaan by the Israelites that displaced them I'm almost sure - I wish I knew when and under what circumstances, hopefully that'll also become clearer.

As for Jihad, I am aware also that the word simply means 'stuggle'. But if the people you are struggling against are waging a holy war against you (I'm talking about the Crusades for example), doesn't your Jihad become in essence, your part in that holy war? Semantics probably -

QUOTE
I agree to the point in terms of coming together that we should not say "you are wrong" and "I am right". But my thought and intent was to give rebuttals to the ridiculous judgements usediscernment has regarding Islam. That can have a negative effect. If it stays as it is, then it may be believable and accepted as true.


Briefly then - address his factual errors and be done with it. You get my point that you can never convince anyone of anything by arguing with them about it, right? That's human nature. With that in mind have at it.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM

Posted by: water_bender Jul 30 2006, 08:08 AM

The Israelites had moved from the land of Canaan into Egypt when Joseph was prime minister of Egypt. After the death of Joseph and a change in rulership, the Egyptians were now suspicious of the Israelites, particularly because they had begun to greatly increase in number. Therefore they enslaved the Israelites and used them as labor in building projects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 08:16 AM

now see ... the israelites couldnt decide where they wanted to live. back then they seemed nomadic ... they then left egypt and just wondered the wilderness for years ... looking for the promised land ... in other words ... they were looking for a place to set up shop that had some land that was worth a damn

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:07 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 08:32 AM

QUOTE
i'm simply saying that believing the massively edited interpreted teachings of someone that lived over a millenia ago .. just doesnt fall into the category of logic to me.


Obviously. But what's important, to me, is what people believe and why they do the things they do - which is a different matter entirely. While the first crusaders were under siege and starving at Antioch, Peter the Hermit had a dream, they dug and found the sword (spear?) that pierced Christ on the Cross, rallied behind it and came storming out of the city and chased away the Turks that had them surrounded. A bulls#it story if I ever heard one. But the fact remains that the sieged crusaders did in fact escape Antioch and carry on to Jeruselem. Maybe Peter the Hermit planted the spear, doesn't matter. People believed the story enough to write it down, and it's the only explanation for that link of how we got from there to here. (Kind of like 9/11 lol.)

QUOTE
Well Joseph, Jacob's son, was shipped to Egypt by his brothers as a slave. Islam and the Old Testament both agree to the jealousy that resonated amongst Joseph's brothers


Here's what I don't understand. Check out this map...




Notice Joseph isn't listed. It was his sons, Ephraim and Manesseh, that were given parcels. Jacob and his family went to Egypt during a drought, found Joseph who forgave his brothers. I'm assuming Jacob's family returned to Canaan, they had to to populate the region, to make these tribes into "tribes", and not just names on paper.

QUOTE
The Israelites had moved from the land of Canaan into Egypt when Joseph was prime minister of Egypt. After the death of Joseph and a change in rulership, the Egyptians were now suspicious of the Israelites, particularly because they had begun to greatly increase in number. Therefore they enslaved the Israelites and used them as labor in building projects


Thanks. But if the Israelites went to Egypt during Joseph's lifetime, what's with this map? Who stayed behind to populate the tribes? In Joseph's lifetime "the Israelites" couldn't have been more than a couple dozen people. No? I gotta do some reading ... back in a few.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:07 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 08:38 AM

Sanders,

QUOTE
Briefly then - address his factual errors and be done with it. You get my point that you can never convince anyone of anything by arguing with them about it, right? That's human nature. With that in mind have at it.


I agree. My point was with regards to him believing in any religion he wishes. Freedom of Religion to all!!!! At the same time, was Jesus not tolerant? Of course, no doubt in terms of what the religious records have told us. I am not here to convince him that Islam, Judaism, or other religions are right or wrong, but that he shouldn't chastize religions.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:07 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 08:50 AM


this might be far fetched to some ... but to many ... especially those most important in the matters of why people believe what they do. the spear that pierced jesus' side would be of great magickal value.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:07 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 08:52 AM

pr0mythius,

QUOTE
the only effect i ask is that one thinks about what i'm saying.



I gave you a hypothetical scenario. How would you answer it?

QUOTE
and i have no knowledge of how anything i've said is a materialistic/marxist ideal. marxism .. i havent studied. that ideology i've spoken comes from observation.



Well what you stated in the previous post was analogous to what Marx implied. He stated that religion is the opium of the people.

QUOTE
i am in no way saying that one should place thier "faith" in materialistic things. i'm simply saying that believing the massively edited interpreted teachings of someone that lived over a millenia ago .. just doesnt fall into the category of logic to me.



Sure. That is your wish, and I respect that.

QUOTE
and while i cant recall exact place of reference ... i've a few things that suggest that the bible is incorrect in the areas of geography, timelines, and even exsistance. many of the stories have no basis of evidence to support the story is fact ... so one would be asking me to take it on faith ... and until i see at least something in the area of evidence towards a story .. i will see it as just that ... a story.



Well, that is subjective too. The Christian or theist would argue with evidence for, whilst the skeptic uses a Darwinist/Anthropology/Archaeology approach to discredit the theist.

QUOTE
kill me for being logical. -shrug-


thumbsup.gif

One of my favorite quotes in life is from Imam `Ali. He was the cousin of the Prophet of Islam, the 4th Caliph ur Rashidin (4 Rightly Guided Caliphs) of the Sunnis, first Shi`a Imam.

I can't find the `Arabic version, though the Persian version is known to me. To translate into English is somewhat awkward. In response to an atheist/skeptic he gave the response that if his religion (Islam) was wrong, it was okay and he doesn't lose because it made him a good person in terms of thought and mannerisms, but if his religion came to be true, he still wins.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:07 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 30 2006, 08:56 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 06:35 AM)
ok i've fallen behind on this thread ... but basically what you're saying .. is that the diff between and philosopher and a prophet .. is that many people will die for what a prophet has said?

hmmmm ... in that case ... prophets are evil.  perhaps they didnt want people to kill because of what they prophecied ... but .. yea .. thats kinda messed up ... anyone that would kill someone just because they dont agree with what some other person said ... is off thier freaking rocker.

once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.  dont mean to sound quite so blunt ...... well ... then again ... yea i do.  i would say i have a way better than average concept of "god" ... and to think that god would sign off on the destruction of anyone is f*cking rediculous.

least thats what i think.


No pr0mythius mah man.

The idea is that it is the fanatics that do the killing. The religious people just refuse to be forced at knifepoint to deny their faith.

Take for instance the early Christians. They were a persecuted community in the early years but their love for God was stronger than their love for this fleeting life.

Same with the Baha'is in Persia in the 1800s. 20,000 were butchered by the authorities and wild mobs who saw them as a threat to the established order. The Baha'is didn't fight back, but neither did they recant their belief in their Beloved.

These ten ladies, all members of the Baha'i Faith, were murdered by the authorities in Iran in 1983. The youngest was just 16.











Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:08 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 09:17 AM

ok ... from that cenario ... i'm seeing that ... a religion is peaceful until it gains too much power. christianity was peaceful at first ... persecuted .. all about love .... then they became the ruling religion and persecuted people for not following what they believed.

yes faith in religion determines the course of many ... and i see that as a sad thing. i dont even like the word believe ... i've said that many times before .. and its because its too concrete ... saying you believe something is saying you're absolutely right about the given topic. and yet there are many others that have opposite views ... yet believe just as strongly ... so who is right? its pointless to me ... and while yes i agree its the fanatics that do the violence ... i think we can both agree that that mentality is used to the advantage of the elite. everyone takes that as truth .. so they grind that theory into our heads when creating false flag ops.

the israelis and muslims are not fighting over religion ... they're fighting over land ... religion is just a cover for the violence. and its sickening.

too many points to make ... blah ... i do see truth in what you're saying ... but its layered with many other truths.

BAH its too complicated ... lets all just party and get knickered! cheers.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:08 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 10:49 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 06:17 PM)
the israelis and muslims are not fighting over religion ... they're fighting over land ... religion is just a cover for the violence. and its sickening.

too many points to make ... blah ... i do see truth in what you're saying ... but its layered with many other truths.

BAH its too complicated ... lets all just party and get knickered!    cheers.gif

I intend to go out and get knickered myself in a little bit. But before I do, I figured it out. The families of Jacob's sons all moved to Egypt during the drought, just as WaterBender said. Including the son's wive's and families there were 70 of them. The land wasn't metted out to the 12 tribes until AFTER they returned from Egypt.

Everyone knows the story of Moses, the jews carrying around the ark of the covenant in the desert for 40 years, no need to go into that (?). Finally the Israelites, (numbering 3 million??) entered Canaan - they weren't unaopposed. This is the book of Joshua - containing:
QUOTE
(1.) The history of the conquest of the land (1-12). (2.) The allotment of the land to the different tribes, with the appointment of cities of refuge, the provision for the Levites (13-22), and the dismissal of the eastern tribes to their homes. This section has been compared to the Domesday Book of the Norman conquest. (3.) The farewell addresses of Joshua, with an account of his death (23, 24)


Joshua 3:10 - 'Joshua said, "Hereby you shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Hivite, and the Perizzite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Jebusite out from before you.'

And then they had a war. ("In Canaan there were "seven nations greater and mightier" than Israel (Deuteronomy 7:1, NKJV) that had to be dispossessed and destroyed")

From a 'Crash course in Jewish History',
QUOTE
At this time the so-called Promised Land is bounded by the Egyptian empire to the south and the Assyrian empire to the north. But it is not ruled by either of them. In fact, there is no one power ruling this section of land, rather it is settled by seven Canaanite tribes who inhabit 31 fortified city-states scattered all over the map, each ruled by its own "king."

(Jericho is one of these city-states, so is Ai, so is Jerusalem, where Canaanite tribesmen called Jebusites dwell.)

...Before they enter the land, the Jewish people send an envoy to the Canaanites with the message, "God, the Creator of the Universe has promised this land to our forefathers. We are now here to claim our inheritance, and we ask you to leave peacefully."

Needless to say most of the Canaanites don't.

Meanwhile, Joshua has clear instructions from God that if the Canaanites don't get out, the Jews must wipe them out...


Then it looks like a number of stories of the Israelites being punished for screwing up and rewarded for loyalty, the story of (chronilogically speaking) Samson and Delilah, the prophet Samuel and his chosing Saul to be king - leading to this from the same 'Crash Course' that sort of blew me away...

QUOTE
Saul reigns from 879 to 877 BCE. He's king for only two years and he dies a tragic death. Indeed, his brief reign in itself is tragic, and it has to do with a fatal mistake he makes early on....

One of the key commandments that the Jewish people are given upon entering the Land of Israel is "to wipe out Amalek."

Amalek is the ultimate enemy of the Jewish people in history. This is the people that symbolize evil, and there is a commandment in the Bible to wipe them off the face of the earth, because their pathological hatred for Jews is so great, if they have a chance they will wipe the Jews off the face of the earth.

Amalek's major ambition is to rid the world of the Jews and their moral influence and return the planet to idolatry, paganism, and barbarism.

Since this is a cosmic war between good and evil which cannot be settled with treaties, God commands the Jews to destroy Amalek -- the entire nation, down to the last cow.

Say what !??
QUOTE
Saul has the opportunity to do so. He wages war against Amalek as commanded and wins, but when it comes to fulfilling the decree he falters. The cows are spared, and Agag, the king of the Amalekites, is spared also.

IDEOLOGY OF AMALEK

To this day, history continues to struggle with the consequences of Saul's mistake.

Again, say WHAT??
QUOTE
Agag fathers a child before he is killed by the Prophet Samuel, and then the nation of Amalek goes underground.

Today, we have no way of identifying the descendants of Amalek, but we do know that the Amalekite ideology lives on. There has been more than one occasion when people have arisen bent on exterminating the Jews.


Obviously this is just some guy writing words. But it shows how old the current conflict really extends (Saul reigned from 879 to 877 BC).

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:08 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 10:58 AM

so ... this whole struggle between families ... was god's sunday afternoon movie? i mean ... from god's perspective ... it had to be something of the sort according to this. god created all of it ... but then considered one side more worthy than the other so he allowed them to slaughter the opposition ... not only allowed ... but wished it so.

while i find this hard to swallow.

i'd say this shows the one theory right ... the jewish side of history shows god as a wrathful and mean god ... then the christians cam along .. added to the jewish story to counterpoint it ... make him seem no so grrrrrrrrrrrrrr like. in order to present a side more likeable .. that would persuade more people to convert.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:08 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 11:13 AM

prOmythias, you are not off the mark as I see it. The old-testement is more the story of a firm but unforgiving God. Not just in these remarks about clearing non-believers out of the way, but in the punishments he mets out to the jews when they stray from the path. The 40 years in the desert is one instance, Moses wasn't allowed to proceed with his people into Israel because he got angry for a moment.

I'm not saying Christians or even Muslims are not any less capable of violence in the name of Religion - just that the old testament God wasn't always a nice guy. I see clear parallels between Neocon/Staussian thinking and this philosophy, this type of God.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:08 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 11:33 AM

i see the israelis using the cover of that storyline to half way justify to thier people what they're doing. cuz they're not fighting hezbollah ... if they are .. they're the sorry aiming artilery in history.

its thier destiny as promised by god to bare the land from the mediteranean to the euphrates. a big boost in propoganda when justifying the occupation of lebanon. but thats another story all together.

also the stories of moses and david and joshua and abraham ... were mainly passed down by word of mouth .. then scribed after generations of story telling. so conservativly ... how much truth do you think survived that game of password? 50% maybe?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:09 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 11:55 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 08:33 PM)
how much truth do you think survived that game of password?  50% maybe?


If that.

http://hierographics.org/DoubtingTheStoryofTheExodus.html

QUOTE
In 1999, an Israeli archeologist, Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, set off a furor in Israel by writing in a popular magazine that stories of the patriarchs were myths and that neither the Exodus nor Joshua's conquests ever occurred. In the hottest controversy today, Herzog also argued that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, described as grand and glorious in the Bible, was at best a small tribal kingdom.

In a new book this year, The Bible Unearthed, Israeli archeologist Israel Finklestein of Tel Aviv University and archeological journalist Neil Asher Silberman raised similar doubts and offered a new theory about the roots of the Exodus story. The authors argue that the story was written during the time of King Josia of Judah in the 7th century BC -- 600 years after the Exodus supposedly occurred in 1250 BC -- as a political manifesto to unite Israelites against the rival Egyptian empire as both states sought to expand their territory.

Dever argued that the Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny.

Some scholars, of course, still maintain that the Exodus story is basically factual.

Bryant Wood, director of the Associates for Biblical Research in Maryland, argued that the evidence falls into place if the story is dated back to 1450 BC. He said that indications of destruction around that time at Hazor, Jericho and a site he is excavating that he believes is the biblical city of Ai support accounts of Joshua's conquests.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:09 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 01:51 PM

I truly hope this will clarify who i am, and who i follow.

Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 11:1-4


And [Jesus] saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mark 8:29

"Brother, I'm not interested in any of your divisive doctrinal talk. All I care about is knowing that a person loves Jesus. If someone tells me that, no matter what church he goes to, he's my brother in Christ!" It didn't seem like the right time or place to get into an argument with this individual. Nevertheless, I felt compelled at least to get a question in before the conversation ended. "When you talk with someone who tells you he loves Jesus, do you ever ask that person, 'Jesus who?'"

After quick thought the elderly gentleman let me know that he would never ask such a question. "It wouldn't be loving."

Whenever I visit friends in Pennsylvania, there is a man whom I make it a point to see. He is a joy to be with, one of the friendliest men I know. Though a committed Muslim, he regards himself as an ecumenist. He's proud of the fact that he shares some of the beliefs of both Jews and Christians. Occasionally he attends a Presbyterian church with my friends and truly enjoys the experience and their fellowship. Once in a restaurant he was expressing to me and our Christian friends his love for Jesus. He ended his proclamation with these words: "If I could tear away my flesh so that all of you could see deep into my heart, you would know how much I love Jesus." The emotions that filled his every word were stunning; it's uncommon to hear such a devout declaration, even in Christian circles.

Getting back to my boysenberry pie, I felt good about my friend's expression of love when a nagging thought hit me: Jesus who? A brief mental skirmish took place over whether or not to ask such a question. My words, however, came out before my mind had settled the issue. "Tell me about the Jesus you love." My Muslim friend didn't hesitate: "He's the same one you love." Before I got "doctrinal" with my friend, I thought I should try to show him why it was important to make sure we were talking about the same Jesus.

I used his neighbor, who is a great friend to both of us, as an example. He and I really love the guy. After agreeing on our mutual feelings, I began to give a description of our common friend's physical attributes: "He's 5'6"; he's completely bald; he weighs 320 pounds; he wears a ring in his left nostril." Actually, I didn't get quite that far before objections were made. "Wait a minute... he's easily over 6'4", I wish I had all his hair, and he's the thinnest man I know!" My friend added that it was obvious that we weren't talking about the same person. "Does it matter?" I asked. He gave me an incredulous look. "Of course it does! I don't have a neighbor fitting your description. You may know someone else like that, but it's not my good friend and neighbor." I pointed out that if I truly believed the description I'd just given, then we couldn't possibly be friends with the same person. He agreed.

What followed was my description of the Jesus I knew. "He was crucified and died on the cross for my sins. Did the Jesus you know do that?"

"No, Allah took him to heaven before the crucifixion. Judas died on the cross."

"The Jesus I know is God himself, who became a man. Is that your Jesus?"

He shook his head. "No, Allah alone is God. Jesus was a great prophet, but just a man." The discussion went on to many other characteristics the Bible ascribes to Jesus. In almost every case, my Muslim friend had a different perspective. Though he remained convinced that he held the correct view, the fact that our contradictory convictions couldn't be reconciled seemed to dampen his zeal for proclaiming his love for Jesus.

Some may see my questioning as unloving—as proof of the divisiveness of arguing over doctrines. I see it as trying to clear the way for my friend to have a genuine relationship with the only true Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ—not someone he or other men have wittingly or unwittingly imagined or devised.

Quite simply, doctrines are teachings. They are either true or false. A true doctrine cannot be divisive in a harmful way; that characteristic applies only to false teachings. "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom 16:17; also Rom 2:8-9). Jesus, who is the Truth, can only be known in truth and by those who seek the truth (Jn 14:6; 18:37; 2 Thes 2:13; Dt 4:29). Christ himself caused division (Mt 10:35; Jn 7:35; 9:16;10:19), division between truth and error (Lk 12:51).

"Jesus who?" is a pivotal question for every believer in Christ. We should first of all ask it of ourselves, testing our own beliefs about Jesus (2 Cor 13:5; 1 Thes 5:21). Misunderstandings about Him inevitably become obstructions in our relationship with Him. The question also may be vital in our fellowshipping with those who claim to be Christians. On a brief airline flight recently, a friend of mine was concerned enough to ask the person next to him some crucial questions about his relationship with Jesus. Although the young man professed to have been a Christian for four years or so and participated in a Christian fellowship for professional athletes, he didn't really know Jesus nor did he understand the gospel of salvation. My friend led him to the Lord before the plane landed.

All too often, phrases similar to "we stand together with anyone who names the name of Christ" are emotionally charged coverings for ecumenical agendas. The fear of destroying unity plagues those who take seriously such unbiblical propaganda, even to the point of discouraging any vestige of interest in contending for the faith. Astonishingly, "Christian unity" now includes co-laboring for the moral good of society with cults "that name the name of Jesus."

The cults' teachings about Jesus include every unscriptural idea imaginable. The "Jesus Christ" of Latter-Day Saints, for example, couldn't be further removed from the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus invented by Joseph Smith and after whom he named his church is the first spirit child of Elohim, just as all humans, angels, and demons are spirit children of Elohim. This Mormon Jesus became flesh through physical intercourse between Elohim (God the Father who has a physical body) and the Virgin Mary. Their Jesus is the half-brother of Lucifer. He came to earth to become a god. His sacrificial death gives immortality to every creature (including animals) at the Resurrection. However, whether an individual creature spends eternity in hell or in one of three heavens is totally up to his or her (or its) performance.

The Jesus Christ of the mind-science cults (Christian Science, Religious Science, Unity School of Christianity, etc.) is no different from any other human being. "Christ" is a spiritual idea of God and not a person. Jesus neither suffered nor died for mankind's sins because sin doesn't exist. Rather, he helped humanity to cease from believing that sin and death have any reality. That is "salvation" in so-called Christian Science.

Jehovah's Witnesses also love Jesus, but not the Jesus of the Bible. Before their Jesus was born on earth he was Michael the Archangel. He is a god, but not Jehovah God. When their Jesus became a man he ceased to be a god. There was no physical resurrection of the JW Jesus; Jehovah raised his spirit body, hid his physical remains, and now, once again, Jesus exists as an angel called Michael. The Bible promises that when a believer in our Lord and Savior dies, he or she immediately goes to be with Jesus (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:21-23). With their Jesus, however, only 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have that privilege—but not at death, for they are annihilated when they die. That is, they spend an indefinite period in an inactive and unconscious state, in effect, ceasing to exist. My fellowship of love with the biblical Jesus, however, is unbroken and everlasting.

Roman Catholics love Jesus. I did for twenty-some years of my life, but he was very different from the Jesus I now know and love. Sometimes he was still a babe in arms or a young boy, overshadowed and protected by his mother. When I wanted his help I made sure I prayed to his mother first. The Jesus to whom I pray now hasn't been a baby for almost 2,000 years. The Jesus I loved as a Catholic resided bodily in a small, boxlike tabernacle on our church altar in the form of a white wafer, while simultaneously inhabiting millions of pieces of bread worldwide. My Jesus is the (physically) resurrected Son of God; He doesn't indwell inanimate objects.

The Roman Catholic Jesus I knew was the Christ of the crucifix, his body continually hanging on the cross, fittingly symbolic of the perpetual sacrifice of the mass and his unfinished work of salvation. Nearly two millennia ago, the biblical Jesus fully paid the debt for my sins. He has no need of the seven sacraments, the liturgy, the priesthood, the papacy, His mother's intercession, indulgences, prayers to and for the dead, purgatory, etc., to help save anyone. Roman Catholics who say they love Jesus, though they may call themselves charismatic Catholics, evangelical Catholics, or born-again Catholics, actually love a Jesus who is not the biblical Jesus. He's "another Jesus."

Even some who claim to be evangelicals promote a different Jesus. The so-called faith-and-prosperity teachers promote a Jesus who was materially prosperous. According to evangelist John Avanzini, whose expensive wardrobe reflects his teachings, Jesus wore designer clothes (a reference to his seamless robe) similar to what kings and wealthy merchants wore. In a convoluted argument, success preacher Robert Tilton claims that being poor is a sin, and since Jesus was sinless, it follows that he must have been extremely rich. Positive-confession teacher Fred Price explains that he drives a Rolls Royce simply because he's following the way of Jesus. Oral Roberts says that because Jesus and the disciples had a treasurer (Judas), they must have had plenty of money.

In addition to preaching a Christ who was materially wealthy, many of the faith teachers, such as Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland, proclaim a Jesus who descended into hell and had to be tortured by Satan in order to complete the atonement for the sins of mankind. That's not the Jesus I know and love.

Tony Campolo's Jesus indwells everyone. Television preacher Robert Schuller presents a Jesus who died on the cross to secure our self-esteem. In support of this Jesus, Christian psychologists and numerous evangelical preachers tell us that His death on the cross proves our infinite value to God and is the basis for our self-worth. Not only are a variety of ego-enhancing Jesuses being promoted today, but we're also being told by a psychologized "church" that the truth about Jesus may not be as important for our psychological well-being as our own perception of Him. That's the basis for the current teaching by psychospiritual integrationist Neil Anderson and others who promote unbiblical inner-healing techniques. We have to forgive Jesus for situations in the past where we feel He disappointed or wounded us emotionally. Jesus who?

Fellowship with Jesus is the heart of Christianity. It's not something merely imagined but is a reality. He literally indwells all who place their faith in Him as Lord and Savior (Col 1:27; Jn 14:20; 15:4). The relationship we have with Him is both subjective and objective. Our genuine personal experiences with Jesus are always in harmony with His objective Word (Is 8:20). His Spirit ministers His Word to us and that knowledge is the foundation for our fellowship with Him (Jn 8:31; Phil 3:8). Our love for Him is demonstrated by and increases through our obedience to what He commands; our trust in Him is strengthened through the knowledge of what He reveals about Himself (Jn 14:15; Phil 1:9). Jesus said, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice" (Jn 18:37). To whatever degree we believers entertain false beliefs about Jesus and His teachings, we undermine our vital relationship with Him.

Nothing can be better on this earth than the joy of fellowship with Jesus and with those who know and are known by Him. On the other hand, nothing could be more tragic than the offering of one's affections to another Jesus, the invention of men and demons. Our Lord prophesied that many would fall prey to that great delusion just prior to His return (Mt 24:23-26). There will be many who, because of the alleged signs and wonders they perform in His name, will convince themselves that they know Jesus and are serving Him. To them He will speak these sobering words: "...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Mt 7:23). Rather than being divisive, asking the question "Jesus who?" may be the most loving service one can perform these days. The answer has eternal consequences.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:09 AM

Posted by: Hound Jul 30 2006, 08:21 PM

Well, this is a discussionboard about the 9/11 hoax.

So, why not talk about the biggest one, the MEGA HOAX: which of course is

CHRISTIANITY. The whole hokus-pokus BS is built on the lie that Jaheeezus, was an historical person. In other words that he existed.

There is no historical proof of Jesus existence whatsoever. It is all made up.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:09 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 31 2006, 12:22 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 06:23 AM)
Next: I quoted you above and edited the rest from your post.  Muslims believe in the same creator and God as the Jews and Christians, but the Christian would counter argue and disagree.  They claim that the Muslim's God is different because "He" is not anthropomorphic as is the Christian God and doesn't have a "Son".  Hence, there can be an apparent difference and perception of 2 different gods.

They are not 2 different gods. We have different concepts of God, but we don't believe in different ones. As for Jesus, usediscernment, you could've just said "God" on your posts instead of "Allah", but I feel sometimes that you do it on purpose just to keep believing yourself that "Allah" is a different god than "God", even though your Arab Christian friends say "Allah." Anyways, like what Sanders said, I'm going to drop it and continue to write down Islamic beliefs. As for Joseph, yes he was sold into slavery into Egypt, but I don't really understand the 12 tribes of Israel either. Who's next to talk about?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:09 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 03:39 AM

I have questions (not to degrade anyone or their beliefs): how can Allah and God be the same being if they do not share the same attributes?

How can Allah be God, if God is a trinity and Allah is one being?

How can Allah be God, if God was to send a part of himself to die for the sins of mankind and Allah has done no such thing?

How can Allah be God, if Allah desires the destruction of the Jews and God does not?

I don't understand. I didn't take usediscernment's post to be offensive, but rather, pointing out that if Allah is God and vice versa, then Christians, Jews, and Muslims should agree that Allah/God has the same characteristics regarding love, sin, hatred, vindictiveness, murder, the trinity, one being, salvation, etc. But we all don't agree on that issue. So if we are not in agreement on that, how is it that they are one in the same?

I am just inquiring to further our understanding on the beliefs of each of these religions, I am not trying to insult anyone, and I believe this is crucial to understanding exactly what the conflict is.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:09 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 03:54 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 03:39 AM)
I have questions (not to degrade anyone or their beliefs): how can Allah and God be the same being if they do not share the same attributes?

How can Allah be God, if God is a trinity and Allah is one being?

How can Allah be God, if God was to send a part of himself to die for the sins of mankind and Allah has done no such thing?

How can Allah be God, if Allah desires the destruction of the Jews and God does not?

I don't understand. I didn't take usediscernment's post to be offensive, but rather, pointing out that if Allah is God and vice versa, then Christians, Jews, and Muslims should agree that Allah/God has the same characteristics regarding love, sin, hatred, vindictiveness, murder, the trinity, one being, salvation, etc. But we all don't agree on that issue. So if we are not in agreement on that, how is it that they are one in the same?

I am just inquiring to further our understanding on the beliefs of each of these religions, I am not trying to insult anyone, and I believe this is crucial to understanding exactly what the conflict is.


DayAfterTomorrow, we have to look beyond the dogma of religion to see it more clearly.

Take all the red quotes from the New Testament and look at them. Ignore the rest.

The Bible is true, but it was written by people. People are fallible, God is not.

The red quotes of Jesus tell a story. The rest of it, as well as the interpretations put on it by humans, tend to mislead. The Bible is true, but how do we correctly interpret 666, a man with feet of brass and a sword for a tongue, etc?

Why else would there be thousands of Christian sects in the world? They're interpreting scripture. In the Book of Daniel we are told that no one would be able to interpret that Book. Yet everyone has tried, and claimed that their particular interpretation is the correct one.

The Muslims have their problems too. The Koran, I believe, is the exact Word of God because it was dictated to an amanuensis.

However, the Muslims have many thousands of Traditions attributed to Mahammad, only some of which are genuine. The rest being misleading and corrupting.

Trying to form a consensus on religious belief is fraught with difficulty.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:10 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 31 2006, 04:10 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 03:39 AM)
I have questions (not to degrade anyone or their beliefs): how can Allah and God be the same being if they do not share the same attributes?

How can Allah be God, if God is a trinity and Allah is one being?

How can Allah be God, if God was to send a part of himself to die for the sins of mankind and Allah has done no such thing?

How can Allah be God, if Allah desires the destruction of the Jews and God does not?

I don't understand. I didn't take usediscernment's post to be offensive, but rather, pointing out that if Allah is God and vice versa, then Christians, Jews, and Muslims should agree that Allah/God has the same characteristics regarding love, sin, hatred, vindictiveness, murder, the trinity, one being, salvation, etc. But we all don't agree on that issue. So if we are not in agreement on that, how is it that they are one in the same?

I am just inquiring to further our understanding on the beliefs of each of these religions, I am not trying to insult anyone, and I believe this is crucial to understanding exactly what the conflict is.

Thanks for speaking up, i have not been trying to slam anyone here ever since i started to reply to this thread.
All i am doing is defending my faith!!!

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:10 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 04:12 AM

I understand what you're saying, but the Bible and the Qu'ran have such adamently opposing positions on the character of God and Allah that I don't know how you can attribute that to human mistakes. These aren't just subtle differences, for instance, going from destroying Jews in the Qu'ran to loving them in the Bible is a HUGE leap.

The beliefs are not that closely related. Like Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind in the Bible vs. no mention of such thing in the Qu'ran. The spiritual and physical death of Jesus is a huge deal to Christians and Jews, and yet, not at all existant in Islam.

QUOTE
The Koran, I believe, is the exact Word of God because it was dictated to an amanuensis.


Who dictated the Qu'ran to an amanuensis? That is important. After all, an amanuensis is also a human, and therefore prone to mistake.

If you take the pentateuch (first 5 books of the Bible, or otherwise referred to as the Torah) into consideration, they are considered to be written by Moses (who, after all, is only human) but are also considered to have been dictated by God to Moses.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:10 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 31 2006, 04:35 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 04:12 AM)
I understand what you're saying, but the Bible and the Qu'ran have such adamently opposing positions on the character of God and Allah that I don't know how you can attribute that to human mistakes. These aren't just subtle differences, for instance, going from destroying Jews in the Qu'ran to loving them in the Bible is a HUGE leap.

The beliefs are not that closely related. Like Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind in the Bible vs. no mention of such thing in the Qu'ran. The spiritual and physical death of Jesus is a huge deal to Christians and Jews, and yet, not at all existant in Islam.

QUOTE
The Koran, I believe, is the exact Word of God because it was dictated to an amanuensis.

Who dictated the Qu'ran to an amanuensis? That is important. After all, an amanuensis is also a human, and therefore prone to mistake.

If you take the pentateuch (first 5 books of the Bible, or otherwise referred to as the Torah) into consideration, they are considered to be written by Moses (who, after all, is only human) but are also considered to have been dictated by God to Moses.

Yes, the bible clearly mentions (over 94 times) that the God of the bible has given us his word to mankind. i will only post (2)

Paul writting to timothy
2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus praying to the father
John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Now how is it possible for the God of the bible to hold mankind responsible
to his word if it was written from man??

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:10 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 04:41 AM


QUOTE
Well, this is a discussionboard about the 9/11 hoax.

So, why not talk about the biggest one, the MEGA HOAX: which of course is

CHRISTIANITY.

Could be. Either way, Christianity created a new vessel for Abraham's one god to replace the pagan gods of Europe.

BTW if you hold that 9/11 was a pretext for a religious war, this stuff is all related...

GM10,
Jacob had 12 sons, his son Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers and sent to Egypt. Joseph, by interpreting the Pharoh's dream, predicted a long drought and advised the Pharoh to stock up on grain. The drought came just as Joseph said and the Pharoh made him Prime Minister of Egypt (there is actually some evidence this person existed, his Egyptian name was Imhotep).

During the 7 year drought Egypt was the only place that had stores of grain, and the Pharoh allowed Joseph to invite his family. They came with their wives and children, and stayed. The descendants of Joseph and his brothers made up the 12 tribes. After Moses led the Israelites (all descendents of the 12 brothers) back to Canaan and they expelled the Canaanites, Israel was split up into 12 parcels, one each was given to each of the 12 tribes. That's basically the idea. (Actually the descendants of Joseph's 2 sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, each recieved a parcel. The Levites (descendents of Levi) became the priests and were not given land, but rather a tithe from the other tribes.)

The next thing to happen in Israel is Kings David and Solomon and the building of the Temple. Then Assyria invades. But I'm curious what's going on in Arabia all this time - tell us about the Ka'ab rites? Also, does the Quran say anything about the wars in Canaan?


I can't comment on the identity of God stuff, other than to say the obvious - that the source of Judaism's, Christianity's and Islam's belief in one God is the same (Abraham). Don't let me interrupt - carry on.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:10 AM

Posted by: usediscernment Jul 31 2006, 04:54 AM

QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 30 2006 @ 08:21 PM)
Well, this is a discussionboard about the 9/11 hoax.

So, why not talk about the biggest one, the MEGA HOAX: which of course is

CHRISTIANITY. The whole hokus-pokus BS is built on the lie that Jaheeezus, was an historical person. In other words that he existed.

There is no historical proof of Jesus existence whatsoever. It is all made up.

Just as time goes on many years after 911 there will be many who could say that 911 was a hoax, just like there are some who say that there wasnt a holicaust.
Now check this out...

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 1:1-3 (KJV)

People will have to make a concious decision to either believe or not to believe.
Either way it does not make the happening not true!!!

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:11 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 04:57 AM

QUOTE
I can't comment on the identity of God stuff, other than to say the obvious - that the source of Judaism's, Christianity's and Islam's belief in one God is the same (Abraham). Don't let me interrupt - carry on.


I am attempting to learn Hebrew, which is a long and excruciating process, but I remember reading a while back that the Hebrew word for "wife" in the Bible as used for Sarai/Sarah is different than the Hebrew word for "wife" as it relates to Hagar. This could occur because the Hebrew language is MUCH MUCH more specific than the English language, so there are sometimes like 7 words in Hebrew that mean different variations of one word in English. My understanding is that the word "wife" used for Sarai/Sarah means actual spouse, like we think of wife today. Whereas, the word "wife" as used for Hagar means more of the act of sexual intercourse or 'pretend' wife. This is not to be confused with sexual intercourse in relation to prostitution.

So if this is true (and I am still trying to find where I read this at), that would mean Ishmael was not Abraham's first legitimate child. It would further reinforce the fact that, in the Bible, God referred to Isaac as the one through whom the nation of Israel would be created. Also, there was huge significance to Abram's name being changed to Abraham, and additionally Sarai was changed to Sarah. Hagar's name was never changed. Was there this name changing fiasco in the Qu'ran?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:11 AM

Posted by: bingo Jul 31 2006, 04:59 AM

QUOTE
I can't comment on the identity of God stuff, other than to say the obvious - that the source of Judaism's, Christianity's and Islam's belief in one God is the same (Abraham). Don't let me interrupt - carry on.

No, that is false. According to Christians, the source of belief is Jesus Christ, and this goes for both Christians, and the ancient Jews. Even before the incarnation, the Son of God was imparting faith. Abraham was the recipient, not the originator, of it.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:11 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 05:14 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 03:39 AM)
I have questions (not to degrade anyone or their beliefs): how can Allah and God be the same being if they do not share the same attributes?

How can Allah be God, if God is a trinity and Allah is one being?

How can Allah be God, if God was to send a part of himself to die for the sins of mankind and Allah has done no such thing?

How can Allah be God, if Allah desires the destruction of the Jews and God does not?

I don't understand. I didn't take usediscernment's post to be offensive, but rather, pointing out that if Allah is God and vice versa, then Christians, Jews, and Muslims should agree that Allah/God has the same characteristics regarding love, sin, hatred, vindictiveness, murder, the trinity, one being, salvation, etc. But we all don't agree on that issue. So if we are not in agreement on that, how is it that they are one in the same?

I am just inquiring to further our understanding on the beliefs of each of these religions, I am not trying to insult anyone, and I believe this is crucial to understanding exactly what the conflict is.

ok ... lets say there is a supreme being, a "God"(which i believe) ... this is how allah can be God just as Jesus/God of christianity can also be.

call God jehovah .. allah .. or Fred Dickinson ... it doesnt matter. you can have a million different beliefs on the details of what God wants for his creation and such. but when it comes to worshiping and following ... you're all following the same God. even if you entertain the idea of more than one God ... your thoughts/prayers/energy .. are all going to the same entity. see what i'm saying? a christian prays to god ... a muslim prays to god .. a mormon .. a jew .. whoever .. they're praying to the same God. doesnt matter what you call him/her.

ok that was f'd up ... i work at a hotel .. and i'm at work right now ... and i just checked in one "Frederick Dickinson" how spooky is that? blink.gif

QUOTE
No, that is false. According to Christians, the source of belief is Jesus Christ, and this goes for both Christians, and the ancient Jews. Even before the incarnation, the Son of God was imparting faith. Abraham was the recipient, not the originator, of it.

i thought the jews didnt believe jesus was the son of God? that they're still waiting for the messiah?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:11 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 05:25 AM

QUOTE
call God jehovah .. allah .. or Fred Dickinson ... it doesnt matter. you can have a million different beliefs on the details of what God wants for his creation and such. but when it comes to worshiping and following ... you're all following the same God. even if you entertain the idea of more than one God ... your thoughts/prayers/energy .. are all going to the same entity. see what i'm saying? a christian prays to god ... a muslim prays to god .. a mormon .. a jew .. whoever .. they're praying to the same God. doesnt matter what you call him/her.


Well I think there is a huge problem if one belief system is telling you to kill Jews and the other is telling you that Jews are God's chosen people. That kind of matters to the Jews....

QUOTE
ok that was f'd up ... i work at a hotel .. and i'm at work right now ... and i just checked in one "Frederick Dickinson" how spooky is that?  blink.gif


In the words of the EXTREMELY knowledgeable Paris Hilton, "That's Hott." wink.gif

QUOTE
i thought the jews didnt believe jesus was the son of God? that they're still waiting for the messiah?


It is my understanding, though I may be wrong, that Jews believe Jesus is the son of God, but that he has not come yet and has not yet been crucified. That kind of goes along with the fact that they only look at the old testament, and most specifically the first five books. So, you kind of miss out on the whole Jesus part when you don't read the new testament.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:11 AM

Posted by: bingo Jul 31 2006, 05:30 AM

QUOTE
i thought the jews didnt believe jesus was the son of God? that they're still waiting for the messiah?

The Jews believe in a Son of God, but most of them rejected him when he came. But he appeared before 500 believing Jews after the resurrection, the very small remnant that was referred to in the Old Testament.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:11 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius> Jul 31 2006, 05:36 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 05:25 AM)
Well I think there is a huge problem if one belief system is telling you to kill Jews and the other is telling you that Jews are God's chosen people. That kind of matters to the Jews.....

well i was just meaning that ... here you have two groups of people ... both with a "holy book." both said to be inspired by God. so unless God is just instigating a fight to give him/her something to watch ... then i'm gonna stand by the fact that they're both wrong.

as if i'm supposed to choose sides or something. i'm not about to believe something just because one story sounds better than the other. they both have a lot of good things that they promote .. as well as bad things .. but its considered blasphemy to just pick and choose. like you believe it all or none at all.

any group of people that deal in absolutes shouldnt be trusted.
Bush: "you're either with us .. or with the terrorists"
Bible: "you're either of me or of Satan"

screw all of that!

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:12 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 06:07 AM

QUOTE
well i was just meaning that ... here you have two groups of people ... both with a "holy book." both said to be inspired by God. so unless God is just instigating a fight to give him/her something to watch ... then i'm gonna stand by the fact that they're both wrong.

as if i'm supposed to choose sides or something. i'm not about to believe something just because one story sounds better than the other. they both have a lot of good things that they promote .. as well as bad things .. but its considered blasphemy to just pick and choose. like you believe it all or none at all.

any group of people that deal in absolutes shouldnt be trusted.
Bush: "you're either with us .. or with the terrorists"
Bible: "you're either of me or of Satan"

screw all of that!


The Bible came before the Qu'ran, chronologically, if that matters at all. They are NOT the same God, actually, and if you look at the characteristics of each, that is quite evident; nothing against you or anything, they just have two very different natures.

Actually, the Bible does not promote bad things, whereas the Qu'ran specifically targets the Jews as a race to kill. That is also a huge difference. I have many athiest and agnostic friends, and they tell me the problem with Christianity/Judaism is that the majority of the Christians and Jews that exemplify those religions are huge hypocrites, extremely pushy about their beliefs, and often can't substantiate what they claim. The inherent flaw with Christianity and Judaism, if not with all religions in general, is people. People are imperfect. The difference between the Bible and the Qu'ran as far as this discussion has gone, is that the Bible accepts the fact that humans are imperfect, as we are designed to be, and institutes a plan of action to rectify this imperfection, which is salvation. But, if you notice, the only way the Bible says you can achieve salvation is through God alone, God whom is perfect. The Qu'ran does not have a plan of action to solve for imperfection, and to my knowledge, you don't know what Allah has in store for you.

The problem with Christians is they do not read their Bibles, and if they do, they do not do so correctly. God did not write in English, so why do Christian pastors read their Bibles from the English translations? The Bible was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, so it only makes sense that a pastor should be able to teach the Bible from those languages. Otherwise, you have the problem of inaccurate translations, like my "wife" example above, and many many more. Christian's claim to "know and love" their God, but when it comes right down to it, most do not even know what the Bible says about God. I could go on and on about this, so I'll stop. The point is, the average Christian is not an adequate representative of the religion.

I am a Christian, but I do not attend church physically because you don't learn anything about God. You learn about salvation on Sunday mornings and sin on Wednesday nights, and to me, that is complete BS. The Bible contains infinately more aspects than salvation and sin alone.

I have a great respect for Islamic people as a whole, as my best friend for 15 years is Islamic, so I don't want to create the impression that I hate them, I just disagree.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:12 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 06:13 AM


"O My brother!

When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto
the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart,
which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the
obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments
of satanic fancy."

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:12 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 06:32 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 06:07 AM)
QUOTE
well i was just meaning that ... here you have two groups of people ... both with a "holy book." both said to be inspired by God. so unless God is just instigating a fight to give him/her something to watch ... then i'm gonna stand by the fact that they're both wrong.

as if i'm supposed to choose sides or something. i'm not about to believe something just because one story sounds better than the other. they both have a lot of good things that they promote .. as well as bad things .. but its considered blasphemy to just pick and choose. like you believe it all or none at all.

any group of people that deal in absolutes shouldnt be trusted.
Bush: "you're either with us .. or with the terrorists"
Bible: "you're either of me or of Satan"

screw all of that!


The Bible came before the Qu'ran, chronologically, if that matters at all. They are NOT the same God, actually, and if you look at the characteristics of each, that is quite evident; nothing against you or anything, they just have two very different natures.

Actually, the Bible does not promote bad things, whereas the Qu'ran specifically targets the Jews as a race to kill. That is also a huge difference. I have many athiest and agnostic friends, and they tell me the problem with Christianity/Judaism is that the majority of the Christians and Jews that exemplify those religions are huge hypocrites, extremely pushy about their beliefs, and often can't substantiate what they claim. The inherent flaw with Christianity and Judaism, if not with all religions in general, is people. People are imperfect. The difference between the Bible and the Qu'ran as far as this discussion has gone, is that the Bible accepts the fact that humans are imperfect, as we are designed to be, and institutes a plan of action to rectify this imperfection, which is salvation. But, if you notice, the only way the Bible says you can achieve salvation is through God alone, God whom is perfect. The Qu'ran does not have a plan of action to solve for imperfection, and to my knowledge, you don't know what Allah has in store for you.

The problem with Christians is they do not read their Bibles, and if they do, they do not do so correctly. God did not write in English, so why do Christian pastors read their Bibles from the English translations? The Bible was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, so it only makes sense that a pastor should be able to teach the Bible from those languages. Otherwise, you have the problem of inaccurate translations, like my "wife" example above, and many many more. Christian's claim to "know and love" their God, but when it comes right down to it, most do not even know what the Bible says about God. I could go on and on about this, so I'll stop. The point is, the average Christian is not an adequate representative of the religion.

I am a Christian, but I do not attend church physically because you don't learn anything about God. You learn about salvation on Sunday mornings and sin on Wednesday nights, and to me, that is complete BS. The Bible contains infinately more aspects than salvation and sin alone.

I have a great respect for Islamic people as a whole, as my best friend for 15 years is Islamic, so I don't want to create the impression that I hate them, I just disagree.

so are you saying that the God of Christianity .. and the God or Allah of Islam ... are 2 different entities? so there are 2 Gods? thats what you're saying? if not .. then one must exsist and the other doesnt ... you cant have it both ways.

but if there are 2 Gods like that .. with opposing views on the universe and how things should be done .. then why dont they just duke it out and let us know who won? or better yet ... we can set it up for a PPV event! cheers.gif

and you said the bible doesnt promote bad things? how bout sadom and ghamorah .. or however you spell it. the plagues ... the city of jericho. the bible is peppered with stories of men who had the approval of God to slaughter others. this is not bad things?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:12 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 06:38 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 31 2006 @ 06:13 AM)
"O My brother!
When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto
the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart,
which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the
obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments
of satanic fancy."

before i dove into "the knowledge of ancient days" i did what i guess you could say was a heart cleansing. for about 3 years ... i spent the majority of time answering one question. "who am i?" like socrates said ... "know thy self" .. i agree that this is the most imporant thing a person can do. i'm not completely there .. probably never will be. but i've come to understand much about myself. reasons for reactions to past events .. reasons for others actions to past events.(sometimes it comes clear in ones self when seeing such in another)

BUT ... i dont think Satan exsists. and even if he/she did ... it would be because of a physical manifestation because of the massive belief in the entity.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:12 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 07:09 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 31 2006 @ 06:38 AM)
BUT ... i dont think Satan exsists.  and even if he/she did ... it would be because of a physical manifestation because of the massive belief in the entity.


Good point pr0mythius

Baha'is believe that Satan as referred to in the Scriptures means the self or the ego.

The 'self' is personified as 'Satan' to make it easier to identify.

That is the human condition. We have a choice -- to do good, or to do bad.

In the spiritual world we don't have that choice. Or, to be more exact, we do have the choice but faced with the overwhelming glory and loveliness of the Unknowable Essence we would never even think of doing anything ungodly.

Every moment of every day of our earthly lives we are faced with that choice.

The more choices to do good, the more saintly we become. The more choices to do bad, or to look after number 1 at the expense of others, the more satanic we become.

"Follow not the promptings of your own desires, nor the whisperings of the Evil One in your souls."

In the above quote, "your own desires" and "the Evil One" mean the same thing.

Those who believe that Satan is a separate creature, to my mind, believe in two gods, God and an anti-god.

Baha'is believe that God, the Unknowable Essence, is omnipotent. Being omnipotent means that there cannot exist anything but that it exists at His pleasure. Meaning that 'Satan', as a separate entity, cannot exist.



BTW Good work on your self exploration. I commend you for it.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:12 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 07:19 AM

i agree with that ... i've said for years that the "evil" is within us. and i have thought since i was about 13-14 that the concept of satan or the devil was just a way to blame everything you've done bad on something besides urself. no responsibility for ones action. SATAN MADE ME DO IT! blah

but not following the promptings of your own desires. hmmmmm what exactly does this involve. because if God created everything .. he created those desires that we have. for instance. christians seem to have this logic that sex is BAD ... long ago christian spouses would only have sex as a way for breeding. and while doing so would wear a full body robe with openings in the obvious areas.

THAT .. is rediculous of course. but it does seem to be a standing of many .. my father is a southern baptist preacher .. and the only times we even TALKED about sex was when i was 12 and we had "the talk" .. then when i had to tell him i wasnt a virgin anymore. he asked if i could go back would i do it again .. and i said absolutely .. he just looked all shocked. -shakes head-

my point is ... desires are not wrong .. some .. perhaps .. but for the most part i think its wrong to deny urself the things which give you pleasure. doing so doesnt glorify anyone or anything.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:13 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 31 2006 @ 07:19 AM)
and the only times we even TALKED about sex was when i was 12 and we had "the talk" .. then when i had to tell him i wasnt a virgin anymore.  he asked if i could go back would i do it again .. and i said absolutely .. he just looked all shocked.  -shakes head-

my point is ... desires are not wrong .. some .. perhaps .. but for the most part i think its wrong to deny urself the things which give you pleasure. doing so doesnt glorify anyone or anything.


[laugh] I like the bit about telling your dad you weren't a virgin.

Baha'is are taught that desires are good. For example, the desire to excel, or the desire to spread Truth. Sexual desire within a marriage is good because it strengthens the bonds between husband and wife.

Those who do the full body suit thing are simply taking the idea of self-denial to an extreme.

Baha'is are encouraged to be moderate in all things.

So sexual self-control, abstinence, is praisworthy, but sexual expression with one's spouse for the sake of enjoyment is okay too. Mutilating our genitals (as some Islamic people do) or engaging in sexual promiscuity (as some Western people do) are both extremes and forbidden to Baha'is (though some of us Western Baha'is are a work-in-progress on the latter point whistle.gif )

Desire, moderately controlled is good. Desire without control is not.

[edit: Typos]

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:13 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 07:55 AM

yea i dont see the validity in the "no sex before marriage" thing. sure .. if you wanna do that .. its all good .. more power to ya. but i dont see how its all that important. i've never been married ... probably never will for several reasons .. but thats another issue.

but yea i've had sex .. and one thing i'm proud of tho .. is that i lost my virginity to someone i truely loved. thats why i told my dad i had no shame about it ... and there was no way in hell he could convince me otherwise. i was 18 the first time i had sex. most reactions i get when i tell people that is "wow .. i lost mine at 15" or 14 or 16 or whatever.

i dont think people should be rackless with thier sexual desires ... but i also dont think sex needs approval by a religion. when you get down to it .. we're just mammals. sure we're considered half-way intellegent and all that .. but still we're just animals.

oh yea .. and masturbation. why the hell do religions have this thing agaisnt masturbation ... catholics at least .. christians too .. dunno about muslims or some others .. but yea. they dont want someone else to pleasure you .. they dont want you to pleasure urself. WHAT THE HELL! blink.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:13 AM

Posted by: Hound Jul 31 2006, 10:25 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 31 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
QUOTE

Well, this is a discussionboard about the 9/11 hoax.

So, why not talk about the biggest one, the MEGA HOAX: which of course is

CHRISTIANITY.

Could be. Either way, Christianity created a new vessel for Abraham's one god to replace the pagan gods of Europe.

BTW if you hold that 9/11 was a pretext for a religious war, this stuff is all related...

GM10,
Jacob had 12 sons, his son Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers and sent to Egypt. Joseph, by interpreting the Pharoh's dream, predicted a long drought and advised the Pharoh to stock up on grain. The drought came just as Joseph said and the Pharoh made him Prime Minister of Egypt (there is actually some evidence this person existed, his Egyptian name was Imhotep).

During the 7 year drought Egypt was the only place that had stores of grain, and the Pharoh allowed Joseph to invite his family. They came with their wives and children, and stayed. The descendants of Joseph and his brothers made up the 12 tribes. After Moses led the Israelites (all descendents of the 12 brothers) back to Canaan and they expelled the Canaanites, Israel was split up into 12 parcels, one each was given to each of the 12 tribes. That's basically the idea. (Actually the descendants of Joseph's 2 sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, each recieved a parcel. The Levites (descendents of Levi) became the priests and were not given land, but rather a tithe from the other tribes.)

The next thing to happen in Israel is Kings David and Solomon and the building of the Temple. Then Assyria invades. But I'm curious what's going on in Arabia all this time - tell us about the Ka'ab rites? Also, does the Quran say anything about the wars in Canaan?


I can't comment on the identity of God stuff, other than to say the obvious - that the source of Judaism's, Christianity's and Islam's belief in one God is the same (Abraham). Don't let me interrupt - carry on.

Yes indeed, but was replacing the Pagan gods= Our European gods, our European culture, with the Abrahamic= totally alien semitic god, that got nothing to do with European culture.

A good thing?

It was the biggest disaster in the European history. When they got in power they burnt and slaughtered everything Pagan=European. The pagan culture (so much higher than the xtian) was completly destoyed. They burnt every library.

Europe descended inte the dark ages it lasted to the renaissance.


9/11 was certainly a pretext for war, not a religious war. But they are using the tremendous power of religion. They are deliberatly spreading hatred among xtians towards Muslims.


Aren't you too wise to view the bible as book of historiography? It is a book of myths. Take the myth that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. There is no evidence for this. It is pure fantasie, or rather a myth. With no basis in the historical reality.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:13 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 10:36 AM

QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 31 2006 @ 10:25 AM)
Aren't you too wise to view the bible as book of historiography? It is a book of myths. Take the myth that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. There is no evidence for this. It is pure fantasie, or rather a myth. With no basis in the historical reality.


Hi Hound,

I have it on good authority that history didn't start to be chronoligically set down until Pliny the Elder set to work on it.


Apparently, prior to that history was passed down by word of mouth.

Yes, the Bible has its fair share of mythological references such as the story of Adam and Eve. But the fact that it is allegorical doesn't diminish its value. Same as the Aboriginal dreamtime stories, US Indian lore, etc. They speak to us on the level of mysticism, the language of the heart, significant to the soul.

And yeah, a lot of evil was done in the name of Christ in the Dark Ages -- but I think Christ is ashamed of those people.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:13 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 10:50 AM

QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 31 2006 @ 10:25 AM)
Yes indeed, but was replacing the Pagan gods= Our European gods, our European culture, with the Abrahamic= totally alien semitic god, that got nothing to do with European culture.

A good thing?

It was the biggest disaster in the European history. When they got in power they burnt and slaughtered everything Pagan=European. The pagan culture (so much higher than the xtian) was completly destoyed. They burnt every library.

Europe descended inte the dark ages it lasted to the renaissance.


9/11 was certainly a pretext for war, not a religious war. But they are using the tremendous power of religion. They are deliberatly spreading hatred among xtians towards Muslims.


Aren't you too wise to view the bible as book of historiography? It is a book of myths. Take the myth that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. There is no evidence for this. It is pure fantasie, or rather a myth. With no basis in the historical reality.

well ... acctually christianity does have a bit to do with paganism. you could classify me as a pagan i suppose .. most of thier teaching seem to make more sense than more organized religions. but anywayz ... christianity did take a lot of thier holidays from paganism. for instance:

christmas .. jesus birthday id celebrated on december 25th when most scholars say from the story that jesus was more than likely born in august. but the christian church made december 25th the holiday to celebrate his birth to overshadow the Yule holiday. and early christians actually used to celebrate jesus's birthday on january 6th. by the way .. yule holiday celebrates the rebirth of the God. coincidence? HA!

easter .. christians celebrate this holiday to remember the crucifixion of christ .. so where did all the bunnies and eggs come from? pagans celebrate Ostara around the same time .. the spring equinox .. the return of spring .. and also with this came the birthing of farm animals.

Samhain/Halloween .. celebrated by pagans to remember thier loved ones that have passed on .. it symbolized the death of the God and the Goddess mourning him til the coming of Yule and his rebirth. Christians then created All-Saint day to counter this holiday.

interesting eh?

baptism is another one
the last supper

the imagery of the crucifixion, two theievs on each side of jesus .. in paganism Mithras had two torchbearers, one on each side .. one torch pointed up .. other down .. symbolizing ascent to heaven and hell.

and the ways people in the old testament would attone for thier sins matched that of pagan ritual.

ok i guess i'll stop now .. should be enough to convince i hope.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:13 AM

Posted by: Hound Jul 31 2006, 10:51 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 31 2006 @ 10:36 AM)
QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 31 2006 @ 10:25 AM)
Aren't you too wise to view the bible as book of historiography? It is a book of myths. Take the myth that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. There is no evidence for this. It is  pure fantasie, or rather a myth. With no basis in the historical reality.


Hi Hound,

I have it on good authority that history didn't start to be chronoligically set down until Pliny the Elder set to work on it.


Apparently, prior to that history was passed down by word of mouth.

Yes, the Bible has its fair share of mythological references such as the story of Adam and Eve. But the fact that it is allegorical doesn't diminish its value. Same as the Aboriginal dreamtime stories, US Indian lore, etc. They speak to us on the level of mysticism, the language of the heart, significant to the soul.

And yeah, a lot of evil was done in the name of Christ in the Dark Ages -- but I think Christ is ashamed of those people.

Hi, to you too Daniels!

Yes, that is right. But the means to further our historical knowledge has since then greatly improved. With lots of sciences to our aid. Epecially archeology.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with myths, as long as they are treated as myths. That was the case with the Indian, aboriginal and our pagan mythology.

The unique thing with christianity is that they are viewing myths as reality (I don't think the Jews do, however I'm not sure).

This phenomennon is especially obvious in the US, where you have this fundamental creed that litterally belives everything in the bible.

To them it is not myths at all. It is historical reality. They really believe Jesus walked on water, in the miracles etc.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:14 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 10:52 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 31 2006 @ 10:36 AM)
QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 31 2006 @ 10:25 AM)
Aren't you too wise to view the bible as book of historiography? It is a book of myths. Take the myth that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. There is no evidence for this. It is  pure fantasie, or rather a myth. With no basis in the historical reality.


Hi Hound,

I have it on good authority that history didn't start to be chronoligically set down until Pliny the Elder set to work on it.


Apparently, prior to that history was passed down by word of mouth.

Yes, the Bible has its fair share of mythological references such as the story of Adam and Eve. But the fact that it is allegorical doesn't diminish its value. Same as the Aboriginal dreamtime stories, US Indian lore, etc. They speak to us on the level of mysticism, the language of the heart, significant to the soul.

And yeah, a lot of evil was done in the name of Christ in the Dark Ages -- but I think Christ is ashamed of those people.

what about the summerian tablets? some of these are dated to be about 5,000 years old.

and through some of these tablets .. and other cave paints that have been found ... paganism .. or witchcraft predates christianity by thousands of years.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:14 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (Hound @ Jul 31 2006 @ 07:25 PM)
Yes indeed, but was replacing the Pagan gods= Our European gods, our European culture, with the Abrahamic= totally alien semitic god, that got nothing to do with European culture.

A good thing?

It was the biggest disaster in the European history. When they got in power they burnt and slaughtered everything Pagan=European. The pagan culture (so much higher than the xtian) was completly destoyed. They burnt every library.

Europe descended inte the dark ages it lasted to the renaissance.

9/11 was certainly a pretext for war, not a religious war. But they are using the tremendous power of religion. They are deliberatly spreading hatred among xtians towards Muslims.

Aren't you too wise to view the bible as book of historiography? It is a book of myths. Take the myth that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. There is no evidence for this. It is  pure fantasie, or rather a myth. With no basis in the historical reality.

Are you asking me?

I asked much earlier on in this thread - would the world be a better place without monotheistic religion or a more chaotic one ?

I don't know. Did Christianity cause the dark ages or was it the fall of the roman empire? I say it was the fall. The Germanic tribes were warlike without much in the way of "high culture" - they fought each other as readily as they fought the Romans. You say 'they burnt every library' ... Who burnt who's libraries? As far as I know, the Visogoths, the Franks, the Lombards, the Ostragoths, they had no libraries. They were warriors.

Clovis was converted by his wife. She took Christianity because she liked the image of the Virgin Mary. Clovis' son recovered from an illness after she prayed once, (whether this is all Myth or "historical" I don't know) so when Clovis got in a jam he tried praying to God - for the heck of it, out of despiration, and subsequently won the battle. That was enough for him, he forced the whole of the Franks to convert. This was a people that believed Clovis' grandfather was a Seamonster (!?) They were hardly a sophisticated people.

A different question I might add, what lifted Europe out of the Dark Ages? Was it the Renaissance? Actually, it was probably the printing press more than anything - but what was it used to print?? The bible.

Then again, it might just have been greed.

However,
QUOTE
Yes, there is nothing wrong with myths, as long as they are treated as myths. That was the case with the Indian, aboriginal and our pagan mythology.

The unique thing with christianity is that they are viewing myths as reality (I don't think the Jews do, however I'm not sure).

This phenomennon is especially obvious in the US, where you have this fundamental creed that litterally belives everything in the bible.

To them it is not myths at all. It is historical reality. They really believe Jesus walked on water, in the miracles etc.

I agree with this. On top of that, I think fundamentalism pushes people backwards and toward violence.

But you know how humans are, they like movies, they like stories, they like myths. Especially if they give their lives meaning.

(You've figured by now that I don't believe in any religion, right?)

[QUOTE]9/11 was certainly a pretext for war, not a religious war. But they are using the tremendous power of religion. They are deliberatly spreading hatred among xtians towards Muslims.

I think you are right. In fact, I thought about it, and I think the only religious wars were probably the first Crusade (and even that's debateable), and probably some of the Muslim campaigns - thought I don't know enough about them to say. The Canaan wars of Joshua weren't religious - they were about clearing land. The fighting between the Jews and Palistinians isn't really religious in nature - that is, the Jews aren't trying to convert the Palestinians to Judaeism lol. It's about land.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:14 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 12:51 PM


thats another reason i favor paganism ... its against wars and violence. plus .. it doesnt ask anyone to convert or follow thier ways .. they realize its not for everything .. that there are many paths to heaven or the summerland. many pagans actually combine it with other religions. there are christians that even mix with paganism.

and most pagans realize that the stories of old are just that ... stories. like the parables of the bible. they are good stories with good lessons .. but they dont say its factual history.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:14 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 31 2006, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 03:39 AM)
I have questions (not to degrade anyone or their beliefs): how can Allah and God be the same being if they do not share the same attributes?

How can Allah be God, if God is a trinity and Allah is one being?

How can Allah be God, if God was to send a part of himself to die for the sins of mankind and Allah has done no such thing?

How can Allah be God, if Allah desires the destruction of the Jews and God does not?

I don't understand. I didn't take usediscernment's post to be offensive, but rather, pointing out that if Allah is God and vice versa, then Christians, Jews, and Muslims should agree that Allah/God has the same characteristics regarding love, sin, hatred, vindictiveness, murder, the trinity, one being, salvation, etc. But we all don't agree on that issue. So if we are not in agreement on that, how is it that they are one in the same?

I am just inquiring to further our understanding on the beliefs of each of these religions, I am not trying to insult anyone, and I believe this is crucial to understanding exactly what the conflict is. 



Listen, this is kind of getting old. Allah means God in Arabic. So God is God. Allah is Allah. Jehovah is Jehovah. They all mean the same thing in English. God. So God is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, and etc. They're different languages, but same meanings. You believe that God sent His son to die for our sins, but we don't. God does mention Jesus's crucifying in the Qur'an, but only to say it never happened to him. We have different conceptions and beliefs about God, but it is still the same Supreme Being. Don't you believe that your god and the god of the Jews are the same? Don't you hold different beliefs about Him, though? That is the same with us Muslims.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:14 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 05:27 PM


QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 31 2006 @ 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 03:39 AM)
I have questions (not to degrade anyone or their beliefs): how can Allah and God be the same being if they do not share the same attributes?

How can Allah be God, if God is a trinity and Allah is one being?

How can Allah be God, if God was to send a part of himself to die for the sins of mankind and Allah has done no such thing?

How can Allah be God, if Allah desires the destruction of the Jews and God does not?

I don't understand. I didn't take usediscernment's post to be offensive, but rather, pointing out that if Allah is God and vice versa, then Christians, Jews, and Muslims should agree that Allah/God has the same characteristics regarding love, sin, hatred, vindictiveness, murder, the trinity, one being, salvation, etc. But we all don't agree on that issue. So if we are not in agreement on that, how is it that they are one in the same?

I am just inquiring to further our understanding on the beliefs of each of these religions, I am not trying to insult anyone, and I believe this is crucial to understanding exactly what the conflict is. 


Listen, this is kind of getting old. Allah means God in Arabic. So God is God. Allah is Allah. Jehovah is Jehovah. They all mean the same thing in English. God. So God is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, and etc. They're different languages, but same meanings. You believe that God sent His son to die for our sins, but we don't. God does mention Jesus's crucifying in the Qur'an, but only to say it never happened to him. We have different conceptions and beliefs about God, but it is still the same Supreme Being. Don't you believe that your god and the god of the Jews are the same? Don't you hold different beliefs about Him, though? That is the same with us Muslims.


i am not a christian ... but i do believe that god sent his son to die. its just the term of god that screws up the story. cuz yea ... doesnt really mean "GOD"

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:15 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 07:16 PM

I had to laugh when I spotted the title of this thread - a concise history?? What what I thinking! laugh.gif

So just for heck of it, here's a concise history
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/8179/timelineqp9.jpg

Also, I ran across this that was interesting - an article about the 12 Arab tribes - that co-existed (and fought) it seems with the Israelites.

Odd, I didn't realise that, not only are Judaeism and Islam closely related, the Jews and Arabs are really cousins (?)

http://www.brow.on.ca/Books/Ishmael/Ishpost.htm

QUOTE
For the next 40 years they wandered through Arab territory on their way through the Sinai desert and up the Jordan valley. The Arab tribes they encountered are clearly identified and located in their areas : Amalekites, Edomites, Moab, Ammonites, Midian...These Arab tribes are all descended directly from Abraham, or his nephew Lot...

A sister of the Jewish King David was Abigail and she was married to Jether the Ishmaelite. And after King David had handed over the regency to Solomon, one of David's servants was Obil the Ishmaelite, who was in charge of the camels. Obviously the Ishmaelites of the desert were viewed as the most qualified to be in charge of the royal camels, but the text also points to the fact of contacts and even intermarriage between Israelites and Arabs...

Finally we go on another hundred years to the time when Ezra and Nehemiah were restoring Jerusalem after the exile. A group of Arab tribes are mentioned as opposing the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem. They were led by "Samballat the Horonite, Tobiah the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arab". This is further evidence to prove that throughout the Jewish Bible and fourteen centuries after the death of Ishmael the original grouping of Arab tribes was still known among the Jewish people.

As among present day Europeans, there were often squabbles over territorial boundaries, and there could be vicious wars. But the constant throughout Old Testament history was a continual hostility between the Arabs outside the land of Canaan and the Jewish inhabitants of the land which was called Canaan till the invasion under Joshua. And the frequent periods of hostility continue to this day.

In previous chapters we have noted that communication between Israel and her Arab neighbors was possible because they had the common language which Abraham and his sons learned in Canaan. Modern scholars call this language West Semitic, but according to the biblical terminology this was a Hamitic language which had displaced the previous Sumerian (Shemitic) language that Abraham had spoken in Ur. This meant that both Jews and Arabs were originally Sumerian by race, but they spoke the language of Canaan, which was a dialect of the Aramaic language that was understood all over the Arab lands.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:15 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 08:13 PM


QUOTE
Listen, this is kind of getting old. Allah means God in Arabic. So God is God. Allah is Allah. Jehovah is Jehovah. They all mean the same thing in English. God. So God is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, and etc. They're different languages, but same meanings. You believe that God sent His son to die for our sins, but we don't. God does mention Jesus's crucifying in the Qur'an, but only to say it never happened to him. We have different conceptions and beliefs about God, but it is still the same Supreme Being. Don't you believe that your god and the god of the Jews are the same? Don't you hold different beliefs about Him, though? That is the same with us Muslims.


If my God loves the Jews and your God hates them, then obviously they are not the same God. Allah can mean God all it wants to, but when it comes right down to it, when you look at their characteristics, their ideas, their actions, their consequences, they are two completely different Gods. And this is fundamentally where this huge religious conflict occurs.

Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic. So if my God loves Jews and your hates them, and there can only be one God, one of us is wrong. My God created the nation of Israel through Isaac. Yours used Ishmael.

I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful to your beliefs, and I believe you did post some excellent things that I have learned from. I am simply saying we have arrived at the core of this religious conflict.

pr0mythius, as far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, God had to destroy that city because of the nephalim. Nephalim are the offspring of angels having intercourse with humans. I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, but I'll post the verses when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Therefore, people like Hercules in Greek Mythology could have really existed because of this interbreeding of sorts, so myths are perfectly plausible at times.

As for the sex part...the fun stuff ...the Bible does not discourage sex, especially with your spouse. Christians who are being legalistic take that entirely out of context. Sex, in addition to being used for procreation, was designed for humans as a means of pleasure when you are married to your right man/right woman. So if you are married, God wants you to do it . Now, as for having sex when not married, God has a problem with that, but that is no greater of a sin than lying and gossiping is. All sins are equal. Now, if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. The Bible never said you have to be babtised, but for God's sake, don't tell a babtist that.

When I go to church with my boyfriend's family I swear I take antibacterial because everyone in that church will hug you and shake your hand and stand in your personal space, to the point that you feel like you need a shower by the time you get done. I hate going to church.

Like I said, I'm at work, but if anyone needs me, or wants to talk about whatever (I'm bored, trust me), either PM me, email me, or send me a message on myspace at www.myspace.com/imabiggoober

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:15 AM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 09:04 PM


QUOTE
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006, 05:13 AM)
I am simply saying we have arrived at the core of this religious conflict.



You may have.

I'm starting to wonder though, what purpose does this debate serve?


QUOTE
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006, 05:13 AM)
If my God loves the Jews and your God hates them, then obviously they are not the same God. Allah can mean God all it wants to, but when it comes right down to it, when you look at their characteristics, their ideas, their actions, their consequences, they are two completely different Gods. And this is fundamentally where this huge religious conflict occurs.

Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic. So if my God loves Jews and your hates them, and there can only be one God, one of us is wrong. My God created the nation of Israel through Isaac. Yours used Ishmael.



Indulge me, I can think of a number of other posibilities... Your God loves the Jews and you only IMAGINE that his God hates the Jews. Your God hates the Jews too but you Imagine that he loves the Jews. God only loves jews, Christians and Muslims are all infidels. Only the Hindus have it right. All Gods are the same and neither hate nor love any of us, we just imagine he loves some of us and hates others. We all worship the same God who loves all of us, and after thousands of years we've added too much of our own commentary and everyone's confused. There is no God, this debate is pointless. There is a God, anyone can and will believe what they want, and this debate is pointless. There may or may not be a God, and he may or may not love us, which is irrelevant to "religion", because religion is nothing more than belief in a collection of myths, stories written by people. Islam, Judaeism and Christianity are connected because they derive from some of the same myths, whether they all worship the same God or not is not confirmable or not confirmable by those sets of beliefs, because they are simply a collection of myths and stories written by people, not by God.

I'm just stating possibilities, some of them purposely absurd, not what I believe. I hope we can get off of this soon.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:15 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 31 2006, 09:58 PM


For Usediscernment/DayAfterTomorrow:


[quote] If Allah is the God of the Bible, why is he never called by these names?  [/quote]


The Christians in Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan refer God as Allah. The name Allah is sufficient for them. The God in Islam has 99 Names and Attributes which have never been seen in the Bible, all 99 of them. Show me them. Should that insinuate that God in Judaism and Christianity lacks qualities of being a God?? God in Islam is the same God in Judaism and Christianity.

Side Note to start off: Please don't play the semantic games and fail miserably like others in confrontational debates (Read the works of Abu Bakr al Baqillani, a medieval Islamic scholar and was seen as a genius, particularily as the `ilm al kalam was at a heightened position at that time in history). Every well researched and scholarly Muslim I know, knows many orientalists including Tisdall and Muir. This conspicuous methodology will only work on the novice or ignorant. True Christians and true lovers of Christ, as I have many friends of, are never like this.


[quote]The God of the Bible tells us again and again that He is the God of the Jews. Many times He is called "the God of Israel." Yet there is such hatred for Israel among Muslims! [/quote]


By your logic, from the Old Testament, He is not God of you either, since you are a Christian. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, and Muhammad was sent to the whole mankind according to theologists. Therefore, it would make sense from this perspective as the latter two confirm the previous messages and teachings. Furthermore, you are are sheerly playing polemics. Jews were the chosen people as stated in the Qur'an. Jews had broken their covenant and killed many of the prophets and messengers God sent according to Islam. Now if you have any knowledge of Asbab ul Nuzul or `ilm al Qur'an, then the verses you implicity summarized and speak of are evidently and known to be taken out of context. Islam, unlike Christianity and Judaism, gave freedom of rights to Christians and Jews under Muslim rule. They payed the Jizyah tax to the Islamic government and all their rights and property protected. As well, and more importantly, the Jews and Christians,"dhimmis", were absolved from participating in any war. This was not the case in Christianity and Judaism because such principles were unheard of along with being intolerable. Impossible. I have excluded of quoting many verses from the Qur'an which call for good relations with Christians and Jews along with God rewarding Christian and Jews and people of other faiths. If anyone wants them, tell me so. More importantly, through hadith literature, there are reports to substantiate this. More notably is the case with Spain. Under Ummayad and Abbasid rule (both Muslim dynasties), the Christians were allowed to enter scholarly universities and were boarded in lodges at the sole COST of the Muslim state. Now compare this with the Inquisition. No Muslim was left ALIVE! There was no mercy on the Jews either by the Christian crusaders. Jews fled to other Muslim empires for safety, particularily Turkey and Morocco. I haven't even referenced anything from Caliph Omar's time, Saladin's time, or in the Ottoman period. During these periods, there are more examples of how the principles of Islam justified tolerance towards other religions.

[quote]The Koran talks about Abraham and Ishmael, even claims they built the Ka'aba, but gives Isaac no prominence. The Bible mentions Isaac favorably and prominently more than 150 times. God very clearly says that His covenant is with Isaac, not with Ishmael (Gn 17:19-21), from whom the Arabs claim they are descended. [/quote]

First, do you want me to quote verses from the Bible to show God stating that He would bless Ishmael and make him a great nation, like you did with Isaac? This claim is wrong about how Islam views Isaac. Isaac is given prominence in the Qur'an, as he is given the honorary title of being a prophet of God. The Qur'an mandates that Muslims should not make any distinctions between prophets and messengers. But the Jews here are biased in favoring Isaac over Ishmael particularily knowing that the `Arabs come from Ishmael. In Islam, all prophets should be loved, revered, and admired. It happened to be that Ishmael and Abraham built the Kab'ah. Ishmael and Abraham are the forefathers of `Arabs. History can't change this. Muhammad descended from Abraham via Ishmael. Ishmael was an "`Arabized" `Arab. He learned the language of the region (Arabian peninsula). That is why there are many ancient tribes of `Arabs where all `Arabs trace their lineage from. Ishmael was an `Arabized `Arab, and his tribe is referred to as the Adnani tribe. This is the tribe which Muhammad descents from. Indigenous `Arabs there in the Arabian peninsula came from other tribes, and particularily, the Qahtani tribe.

[quote]The God of the Bible calls the Jews His chosen people. He loves them and gave the land of Israel to them as an heritage forever, as hundreds of verses in the Bible declare. Islam denies this basic biblical truth. The Jews are certainly not Allah's chosen people! How can Allah be the God of the Bible, yet not choose the Jews?  [/quote]

The Jews were the chosen people as mentioned in the Qur'an. They lost that position due to them abandoning their covenant with God and massacring God's prophets. Read the Qur'an please. You are copying and pasting tactic is apparently from anti-islamic sites. Don't pose this front of having any knowledge on Islam.

[quote]
In the Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends" (Surah 5:51, Al Hil-ali, v. 54, Jusuf ali), so Allah is not the God of the Christians either. [/quote]

See this is what I mean by copying and pasting. Plus that is a famous verse Christian missionaries employ in a vain attempt I believe. Those verses are the reminders of historical significance. Muhammad was betrayed by many Jews and Christians. This verse was revealed in the city and outskirts of Madinah. Madinah was a city inhabited by Jews, Christians, newly converted Muslims, and hypocritesYou have to take note of the context, the asbab ul nuzul (reasons for being revealed), and whether it is a Madini/Makki verse. This is a Madinah revealed verse (For an indepth analysis, go to the Sirah, Biography of the Prophet Muhammad. The famous one is Ibn Ishaq's. It was revised by Ibn Hisham. This biography can be found in English. It is translated in beautiful and eloquent english by Martin Lings. The title is "Muhammad", by Martin Lings. Amazon or bookstores should have it). Those verses are to be seen in conjunction with these verses:

God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. (Quran 60:8)

God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. (Quran 60:9)

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed). (Quran 5:57)

[quote]In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Jehovah, Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!  [/quote]

The last verse that I quoted is in the same chapter usediscernment quoted, but deceivingly left out the remainder of verses that followed chapter 5 of the Qur'an. Why? It is apparent as verse 57 of Chapter 5 makes note of. Muslims are allowed to befriend Christians and Jews, and atheists and others of different faiths according to the verse. Scripture signifies People of the Book (Another name for Jews and Christians due to them receiving revelations). Anyone who sees hostility towards them would not take that person as a friend. That is the logic in the verse.

Furthermore, the Qur'an states the following regarding Jews and Christians:

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159)

We all know that people of Moses in this verse are Jews.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Quran 5:47)

Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (Quran 3:113-114)

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran 3:199)

"Those who believe, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabeans, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, no shall they grieve" (2: 62).

[quote]
The God of the Bible chose Jerusalem as His holy city. Forty times He calls Jerusalem "the city of David" and repeatedly He promises that the Messiah will be descended from David and will rule on David's throne in Jerusalem over the whole world (2 Chr 6:6; 33:7; 2 Sm 7:16; Ps 89:3-29, etc.). Never does the Bible (or the God of the Bible) mention Mecca or Medina, but Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times. Yet Allah never mentions Jerusalem. How can this be if Allah is the God of the Bible? And how can the Muslims today claim Jerusalem as a holy city of Islam, when it isn't even mentioned in the Koran? That recent claim comes from those who want to take that city from the Jews.  [/quote]

The Qur'an like the Bible mention Bakkah, Bakka, or Baca. Bakkah was another name implied for Makkah. This is what the Qur'an states:

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allah], then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns). [Qur'ân 3:96-97

In the Bible:

Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God. 3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God. 4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

What is highlighted in bold falls in line with Hajar, Abraham's wife who was weeping and pleading with God due to her being left alone with Ishmael. God answered her prayers with the well of Zam-Zam.

Jerusalem is given significance in the Qur'an, particularily in terms of changing direction of face when praying, and significantly accounting for the Israa (night journey) of Muhammad from Makkah to Jerusalem: Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless (Surah Isra, verse 1).

The Mi`raj (ascent) took place from there to the heavens according to Islam. Jerusalem is the 3rd holiest city in Islam, and was the first Qiblah (direction of prayer).

[quote] That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Prv 30:4). [/quote]

You are claiming proof of something which is irrelevant in the Muslims' minds. They hold the Bible to be tampered with. A lot of orientalists and atheists as well hold the same belief. More of your vain attempts. Islam wins in terms of authenticity of material passed down through generations and wins the tamper- free contest. The Qur'an has been preserved both in written form and in the mind since the time of Muhammad. The `ilm al hadith wa `ilm al rijal systems are incomparable. No other RELIGION on the face of the EARTH has devised such a scrupulous and critical analysis of religious traditions. Christianity can never make such a claim and wouldn't even dare so. That is why both the Old Testament and New Testament can't be tamper-free. The logical deduction should come to mind: Should you then believe something which has been preserved and been in its natural state due to having the above system of critical analysis, or something which has been passed down by no devised system of integral analysis?

[quote]The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), "And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name jesus. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Lk 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca. [/quote]

Yes, Muslims' believe in the virgin birth, in the miracles of Jesus, but don't elevate his status nor Muhammad's status to God or sonship. Muslims` win this logical point. Sujectively analyzing the Bible and referencing it only helps alleviate your mind and insecurities and fear you have regarding Islam.

[quote] Muslims insist that the name "Allah" must be used in every language; it cannot be translated Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French, or God in English. Muslims thus treat "Allah" not as a generic word for God, but as the name of a particular god. In fact, Allah was the god of the Kuraish tribe centuries before Muhammad was born. You deny that he was the chief god in the Ka'aba, but you admit there were for centuries 360 idols in the Ka'aba and one of these was called Allah. [/quote]

Where do Muslims insist that Allah should be used in every language? This is your generalized assumption and another deceptive tactic. Each language, and the languages I speak of (English, `Arabic, French, Pashtu, Farsi,) have another name for God besides the `Arabic one (Allah):

Pashtu- Khodai

Farsi-Khudawand, Parwardeegar, Khuda (Edited by e-dog: You actually say "goda")

French- Dieu

English-God

`Arabic - Allah, Allah azza wa jal, Allah Ta`ala, etc....

Allah was the `Arabic term for God, the creator. The Quraish never had an idol named Allah. Please don't be so deceptive. Again, either you are a pathological liar, or you are intimidated by Islam. I assume both, and the latter is quite evident of your numerous post. Al-Uzza, Mana, and Al-Lat were the chief handmade dieties of the polytheist `Arabs before the advent of Islam.

[quote]
What is Allah doing in a temple among 360 idols if he is the God of the Bible, who forbids idolatry? Why does Islam keep this idol temple, and why must Muslims to this day make a pilgrimage there?  That Allah was the chief idol in the Ka'aba is documented history.  [/quote]

Documented in history? Allah was never a diety in the Kab'ah. Nice polemical absurdness. Muhammad destroyed the 360 idols in his advent and conquest of Makkah (a peaceful one). This is documented history. Look to Ibn Ishaq's Sira Rasullulah and Martin Lings' translation of it. The Kab'ah is revered because it was the House of God which Abraham and his son Ishmael built to honor God.

If you further want to pursue this matter, then what will you tell the `Arab Christians of today who still refer God as Allah:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/BibAllah.html

[quote] Let me quote one of the greatest historians:

The desert Arab...feared and worshiped incalculable deities in stars and moons. ...Now and then he offered human sacrifice; and here and there he worshiped sacred stones. The center of this stone worship was Mecca [with] the Ka'aba and its sacred Black Stone...in its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing....  [/quote]

The polytheist `Arabs knew that the House of Kab'ah was built by Abraham themselves. One of the reasons why they trace their lineage to him. They added a polytheistic nature to it.

[quote] The Quraish [Muhammad's tribe controlling Mecca] paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god; He was presented to the Meccans as the Lord of their soil, to Whom they must pay a tithe of their crops and the first-born of their herds. The Quraish, as alleged descendants of Abraham and Ishmael, appointed the priests and guardians of the shrine and managed its revenues (Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," IV: 160-61). [/quote]

The Meccans and the Quraish were polytheists. They drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca because Islam chastized them and their gods. How were the Meccans monotheists? If they were, then there was no reason to drive Muhammad out of Mecca. The Meccans and Quraish tried to persuade Muhamamd to abandon his religion. They even bribed him, making him leader of the Quraish and Mecca. Muhammad's message was to worship God who is unseen and hidden (one of God's attributes, al Baatin) only.

[quote]The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals? [/quote]

The Black stone is believed to have come from the heavens (space), as a meteorite perhaps, by the Muslims. Running between Safa and Marwa is done in commeration of Hajar, Abraham's wife, of finding nourishment and water for her son Ishmael. Later, God answers her prayers. Full narratives can be found in hadith literature. This action is legislated in the Qur'an:

Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of God. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times should compass them round, it is no sin in them. Surah 2.158

Since the House of God, Kab'ah is known by Muslims and pre-Islamic `Arabs known to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael, so is their rituals. If Muhammad copied polytheistic rituals, he and his followers would have been chastized for doing so by the polytheist Meccans when the Muslims performed the Hajj after the treaty of Hudaibiyah was in effect. Note: Mecca was under control of the polytheists at this time. No pagan Meccans are documented to have been upset at him in imitating their rituals. It gives more credence that these rituals originated with Abraham, Ishmael, and Hagar.

Speaking of Paganism and religions, I leave you with a quote from Gibbon's History of Christianity:

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

[quote]You say "Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus...." Do you think Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. journeyed to the idol temple, the Ka'aba, and kissed its Black Stone? [/quote]

No Muslim says the above mentioned people's religion were Islam. Islam specifies that all those prophets are Muslims (one who submits themselves to God). Nice try.

[quote]Impossible! Not one follower of the God of the Bible would ever have gone near the Ka'aba, because the God of the Bible forbids any association with idols; and you admit (as history tells us) that the Ka'aba was filled with idols before Muhammad destroyed them all. In history and the Bible, you will find no mention of Islam or any religion like it. How could you have Islam without the Koran and Muhammad?  [/quote]

How about the above mentioned Baca reference? Do you want me to get real "polemical"? There are prophecies held by Muslims talking about the advent of Islam and Muhammad in the Bible.

[quote]Muhammad started a new religion called Islam to which Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Turks and everyone else in the region had to convert at the point of the sword. They became Muslims, and there is no way you can say that Islam was the original religion of that or any other region.  [/quote]

How about this quote: "History makes it clear that the legend of fantatical Muslims sweeping and forcing Islam over others is the most absurd myth"?- De Lacy O'Leary, Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p.8.

The principle taken from the verse still stands in Islam: There is no compulsion in religion (2: 256). Do you know any juristic priniciples outlined in Islam with regards to non-Muslims? For example, how are dhimmis treated? There is no outlined legislation which tolerates non-Christians from the Bible and its sources, other than what history has shown and continues to show: KILL THE INFIDELS (MUSLIMS).

How did Christianity spread throughout history? It spread by force in my opinion.

[quote]I've been asked to explain, "The God of the Bible is love, an impossibility for Allah." If Allah is a single being, as Muslims insist, then he cannot be love in and of himself, because he had no one to love until he created others; but the God of the Bible is love in and of Himself because He is three Persons but One God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit loved and communed with one another before men or angels were created.  [/quote]

I don't blame the atheists (former Christians). I would have left Christianity if I was a Christian and believed in such logic.

[quote] then why does the Bible refer to Him more than 2,500 times with the plural Elohim (gods)? Interestingly, however, always with the plural noun there is a singular verb. One cannot escape the plurality combined with singularity repeatedly used.[/quote]

You just refuted yourself. No need for me.

[quote]The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. The Koran does say that Allah loves "the beneficent" (Surah 2:195), "the stedfast [and] those whose deeds are good" (Surah 3:146-48), and "those who battle for his cause" (Surah 61:4). But never does it say he loves all mankind, much less sinners; but the God of the Bible loves sinners, even those who hate Him. Allah is said to be merciful, but he does not show mercy to those who need it. The God of the Bible, however, is merciful to all, ready to forgive confessed sin. [/quote]

What about the above references in the Qur'an with regards to the Jews and Christians? What do you make of the attribute/name Ar-Rahman (The Compassionate), Ar -Rahim (The Merciful), Ar-Ra`uf (The most Kind), etc. All are manifestations of love. You like to play semantics. I can quote many references in the Qur'an to validate God's love, but this will do. To translate from `Arabic into English, the Qur'an states:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against your souls! Despair not of the grace of God, for God forgives sins, all of them, for He is much forgiving, most merciful." (39:53)

[quote] The first of the Ten Commandments is that we are to love the God of the Bible with our whole heart; but never does the Koran say a Muslim is to love Allah. You cannot love Allah, because he is unknowable. [/quote]

God's attributes make him known. His legislation, his mandates in the Qur'an make him known to Muslims. The Qur'an at times uses rhetorical arguments to contemplate on creation. In Islam, God is self-sufficient. Islam views God as free of wants and needs, whilst Christianity is the exact opposite. Jesus depicted as God and dying for our sins exemplify this. Bringing an anthropomorphic nature to God is not a necessity to have faith in him.

[quote]
The God of the Bible can be known and repeatedly calls upon men to know Him; but the Koran says no one can know Allah because he is too great. [/quote]

God is known in Islam. The Qur'an shows God calling the believers to call upon Him for help. This is mentioned throughout the Qur'an. Also, God's attributes in Islam speak for themselves. If the nature and entity of God is known, then this would like the previous religions bring anthropomorphic interpretations of God. Hence, that is why God is so sublime, and hence "Like none unto Him" (Surah 112). No one has seen with their eyes this "perception" of God. One of the very logical points the atheists and skeptics make.

[quote]In spite of being infinite, without beginning and end, and the Creator of the universe, the biblical God reveals himself so that men can know Him. Jesus himself said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Those who don't know the God of the Bible are lost eternally. No one knows Allah  [/quote]

Muslims as well believe that God is infinite. What you mentioned above is what Muslims believe. Muslims and Arab Christians know Allah. No need to continue.

[quote]  Bible is filled with prophecies of the coming of Messiah Jesus, but there is not one such prophecy in the Koran for Jesus or Muhammad. [/quote]

Read Surah (Chapter) Maryam (Mother of Jesus) in the Qur'an. It mentions the coming of Jesus. The coming of Muhammad is prophesized by Jesus in the Qur'an:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad" (61:6).

[quote]In fact, the Koran was written after Muhammad came, so it could not prophesy. [/quote]

The Qur'an was memorized and written down in Muhammad's time. In fact, the Gospels were written nearly a couple centuries after Jesus's time. Possible manipulations could have occurred in that span of time. Christianity unlike Islam does not have a scrupulous system of validating or invalidating texts in terms of authenticity and integrity.

[quote]but the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus centuries and even thousands of years beforehand. The Jewish prophets in the Old Testament said the Messiah would be crucified and rise from the dead the third day. Jesus came at exactly the time prophesied and died for the sins of the world, as the Bible says over and over. But the Koran contradicts this and says He didn't die on the cross at all, much less for our sins. The Bible says that the penalty for sin must be paid and that God himself had to come as a man to die for our sins. Allah did not do that.  [/quote]

I can make a similar argument that the Bible prophesized not only Jesus, but Muhammad as well. Enough said there.

[quote]How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. [/quote]

Not true. The Qur'an states:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against your souls! Despair not of the grace of God, for God forgives sins, all of them, for He is much forgiving, most merciful." (39:53)

[quote]As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them. [/quote]

Salvation in faith was a concept in Islam long before the likes of Martin Luther of the 15th century. Salvation by faith alone was discussed by the early period scholars of Islam as well as during the period of `ilm al kalam (knowledge of speech).

[quote]You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?  [/quote]

Not true at all. There is a weak hadith (narrations of Muhammad's sayings, expressions, actions) mentioned in the musnad (compilations) of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (one of the 4 schools of thought living today amongst the Muslims who has a following) that states similarily of God stating he created humans, Adam in this case, in his image. This is dismissed by the Muslims.

The general concept in Islam is that God is above and beyond His creation. He is not anthropomorphic in nature. Like none unto Him (112) and other chapters, (2), exemplify the nature of God.

Allah is the same God as to whom the Christians worship. Why don't the `Arab Christians from the above mentioned countries refer to God other than Allah in `Arabic? They know that Allah is `arabic for God. Simple.

I am upset that such hostility is thwarted on the Muslims and Islam, specifically after 9/11. My friends whom are Christian are more religious and humble than you are. They never state such rubbish. You claim to exemplify the teachings of Christ, but you contradict each of his teachings and tolerance he had for other faiths.

People like you guys are the reasons why "crusade minded" people of all faiths exploit to further this polarization that exists in our society. You are another pawn in their hands. It is obvious that you have been check-mated by them.

Edit: Numerous times. For the sake of argument and discord. I apologize if any finds the above offensive.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:16 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 31 2006, 11:35 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 31 2006 @ 12:22 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 06:23 AM)
Next: I quoted you above and edited the rest from your post.  Muslims believe in the same creator and God as the Jews and Christians, but the Christian would counter argue and disagree.  They claim that the Muslim's God is different because "He" is not anthropomorphic as is the Christian God and doesn't have a "Son".  Hence, there can be an apparent difference and perception of 2 different gods. 


They are not 2 different gods. We have different concepts of God, but we don't believe in different ones. As for Jesus, usediscernment, you could've just said "God" on your posts instead of "Allah", but I feel sometimes that you do it on purpose just to keep believing yourself that "Allah" is a different god than "God", even though your Arab Christian friends say "Allah." Anyways, like what Sanders said, I'm going to drop it and continue to write down Islamic beliefs. As for Joseph, yes he was sold into slavery into Egypt, but I don't really understand the 12 tribes of Israel either. Who's next to talk about?


I'm bringing the perspective of the Christian. The most common argument used in polemical debates.

In my above post, I have dispelled this ludicrous notion.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 11:16 AM

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 11:53 PM


QUOTE
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006, 08:13 PM)
...if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. 




C'mon Kelly, post it so we can all see.

You tell us an embarrasing story and I promise I'll tell you one.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 31 2006, 11:55 PM


Sinewy just proved them wrong about Islam.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 PM

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 11:58 PM


Thanks for the detailed post, Sinewy.

At the risk of compromising my "referee" status, I recommend all non-Muslims (like me) to read this. If everything you say in that is accurate, then the Islamic world should seriously think about hiring a good PR firm, lol.

Edit: I don't want to diss usediscernment or DayAfter for their views in any way - they are by no means 'dumb birds', in fact I believe their perceptions of Islam are fairly representative of MOST people, like me, that were brought up Christian. IMHO.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 12:29 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 31 2006 @ 11:58 PM)
Thanks for the detailed post, Sinewy. 

At the risk of compromising my "referee" status, I recommend all non-Muslims (like me) to read this.  If everything you say in that is accurate, then the Islamic world should seriously think about hiring a good PR firm, lol.


Muslims have good PR people. This is documented in history. It is the powers that be that wish not to expose that side of Islam, and only expose a minority aspect of so-called Islam, "Wahabism".

Ever since the emergence of the Saudi state and Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab's ideas being propagated from there, there has been a proliferation of portraying Islam as this barbaric and antagonistic cult.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 12:40 AM


Did you see that timeline? I don't know how accurate it is (there are only rough dates and lots of important stuff is missing probably) but, where does Abdul Wahab fit in?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:08 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 02:07 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 1 2006 @ 12:40 AM)
Did you see that timeline? I don't know how accurate it is (there are only rough dates and lots of important stuff is missing probably) but, where does Abdul Wahab fit in? 


Yes, I saw it. Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab fits in the 18th century as does Saud. When the Saudi state was officially formed, the Wahabi (later termed Salafi or Salaf us Saleh to gain mass appeal) interpretation of Islam was the foundation of the law code.

The whole Wahabi ideology originates with the British pushing this form of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. The British aided Saud and Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab and their followers against the Ottoman Turks, the ruling authority of the Muslim lands.

Islam has been denounced, chastized, plagued, written off, and antagonized by many Christians throughout history. There are enough orientalists' quotes of the past and medieval quotes as well that have been levied against Islam to depict this.

From this, the British exploited the situation in the `Arabian peninsula, the Saudi royal family, and Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab. Mainstream muslims then became victims due to them losing a central authority at the end.

In the more modern era, the U.S. learned from the British by building alliances with the Saudia family as well. Also, CIA building the GID, which shipped the Wahabi `Arabs into Afghanistan and elsewhere furthered this puritanical form of Islam. The CIA/GID formation of Osama bin Laden was the newly version of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab. There are so many parallels. Both were exploited by western powers. Both have/had similar views. But Osama added another dimension of being exploited due to there not being a central authority (as was not the case for ibn `Abdul Wahab).

Also, the U.S. at the same time were benefitting from Saudi resources, particularily buying their hyrdrocarbons. Hence, this new wealth allowed the Saudis to propagate this misrepresented form of Islam further, not only in their home and nearby regions and elsewhere in the Islamic world, but here home in the U.S.A. The U.S. and others then exploited this version of Islam (as if the Saudi royal family really cares) as being barbaric, insinuating terrorism in the eyes of public, backward, etc. through al-Qaeda.

So the PR is the reason why Islam is in the state that it is. Who is the central authority for muslims as a whole? No one. That is why Islam is being exploited from all dimensions.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 1 2006, 02:14 AM


I understand a lot of what you are saying, Sinewy, but are you saying that Osama bin Laden is evil?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 02:22 AM


QUOTE
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 1 2006, 02:14 AM)
I understand a lot of what you are saying, Sinewy, but are you saying that Osama bin Laden is evil? 



Yes, Osama bin Laden is evil. He has cost numerous Afghans' death.

The Wahabi/Salafi ideology is so erroneous. The reason for its existence is money. The caravans of the modern era continue to be the Hajj. 2-3 million Muslims going to Hajj. The Hajj packages, hotels, food, souvenir selling and other costs benefit the kingdom greatly. As well, if you are a Saudi royal family member, you have the potential of 2-3 million Muslims to convert to the Wahabi ideology due to your published paraphernalia.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 1 2006, 02:26 AM


Do you believe he had anything to do with 9/11, like with with the help of the American government?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 02:27 AM


QUOTE
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 31 2006, 11:56 AM)

A different question I might add, what lifted Europe out of the Dark Ages?  Was it the Renaissance?    Actually, it was probably the printing press more than anything - but what was it used to print??  The bible.

Then again, it might just have been greed. 





It's common knowledge that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

It is one of the great fundamental truths of religious history that the spiritual Sun rises in the East and sets in the West too.
All religions are born in the East. Christianity is often thought of as a European religion because that is where it has had its brightest effulgence. But of course it was born, like all religions, in the East.

Islam follows the same pattern of “rising in the East and setting in the West”.

The glory of Islam in its Golden Age was truly inspiring and not something that can be done justice in a forum post.

Gradually this Inspiration traveled across the spiritual sky to Europe where it gave birth to the Renaissance.

The Jewish religion, too, was born in the East but had its brightest effulgence in Greece — the West

The summary that follows is provided as an indicator of the glory of Islam in its Golden and how it went on to influence Europe. It was written by George Townshend who was summarizing some chapters of John William Draper’s “The Intellectual Development of Europe” 1853. Every student of religion can benefit greatly by this knowledge------------------------------------------"Because of the central position of the Quran, revered as a literary miracle, and because of Arabian pride in their language, which they held to be the one perfect tongue spoken by man and which is indeed regarded by scholars today as one of the greatest intellectual achievements of the race, literature in all its uses and forms was given a place of eminence. Schools and universities were founded and thronged by students of many nations. Great works were produced on all manner of subjects; great libraries were collected containing hundreds of thousands of volumes. The Caliphs ransacked the earth for knowledge, sending out expeditions of inquiry and making foreign lands and distant ages give up their lore. An army of translators was employed, rendering Greek, Egyptian, Indian and Jewish works into Arabic. Grammar and its laws were studied with great elaboration. Dictionaries, lexicons and encyclopedias on a vast scale were prepared. Paper was introduced from China; a new system of numerals (usually known as Arabic) from India. Arabic became the universal language. Caliphs would invite literary men of international repute to the court. Scholars, philosophers, poets, grammarians from diverse lands would find a meeting place in the great bookshops of the capital.

The pursuit of science, practical as well as abstract, kept pace with that of letters. In experimental science, in medicine and surgery, in chemistry and physics, in geography as well as in mathematics and astronomy, the Arabs led the world of that day. They invented a new and exquisite form of architecture, distinguished by its combination of airy grace with solid strength, and by its use of light. The influence of this style can be traced through India as far as Java, to China, to the Sudan and to the whole of Russia. They developed many branches of industry and improved methods of agriculture and horticulture. Introducing the use of the mariner’s compass their ships traversed the seas while caravans maintained a trade between all provinces of the empire, carrying produce from India and China, Turkistan and Russia, from Africa and the Malayan Archipelago.

The glory of Baghdad with its mosques and palaces, its temples of learning, its fragrant gardens, was reproduced in the lesser centers of the world of Islam: in Basra, in Bokhara, in Granada and Cordoba. It is written of the last-named city that at the height of its prosperity it contained more than 200,000 houses and more than a million inhabitants and that a man after sunset might walk in a straight line for ten miles along paved and illuminated streets—yet in Europe centuries later there was not a paved street in Paris nor a public lamp in London.

Cordoba was the first University founded in Europe, and in its halls multitudes of Christian scholars received instruction, among them being Gerbert who afterwards became Sylvester II, the brilliant Pope of Rome.

Inevitably, and in spite of the antagonism between Christendom and Islam, this advanced civilization influenced the course of life and thought in Europe. Through the Muslim outpost in Sicily and the scintillating brilliance of Muslim Spain, through the intelligence of scholars and the resources of the Muslim universities, through traders, through diplomats and travelers, through soldiers, sailors and reconquered peasants, new ideas, techniques, and attitudes passed from Islam to Western Europe.”
------------------------------------------

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:09 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 02:40 AM


Interesting

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 02:47 AM


QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 31 2006 @ 11:53 PM)
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 08:13 PM)
...if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. 

C'mon Kelly, post it so we can all see. 

You tell us an embarrasing story and I promise I'll tell you one
.


I don't mind telling everyone, I just mind getting banned tongue.gif .

As for everyone else, like I've always said, arguing religion is a moot point. Or as my 5 year old cousin would say, a "moo" point. I don't even know why I bother, actually I do, it stems from boredom, which is in severe excess around here.

I will say, honestly, that I am not informed enough on the subject to continue debating. Though, if you have to go to church for some reason and need a recommendation as to which anti-bacterial to use, I'm your gal.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 03:24 AM


QUOTE
QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 1 2006, 02:40 AM)
Interesting  



Yes. I find it interesting that there are many conspiracies in this world.

The concealment of the Golden Age of Islam and our debt of gratitude to them by centuries of religious and cultural prejudice is one such conspiracy.

As John William Draper has stated in his seminal work, ‘The Intellectual Development of Europe,’ “I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has contrived to put out of sight our scientific obligations to the Mohammedans. … Injustice founded on religious rancor and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever.”

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 03:34 AM


QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006 @ 11:47 AM)
I don't mind telling everyone, I just mind getting banned   tongue.gif  .

As for everyone else, like I've always said, arguing religion is a moot point. Or as my 5 year old cousin would say, a "moo" point. I don't even know why I bother, actually I do, it stems from boredom, which is in severe excess around here.

I will say, honestly, that I am not informed enough on the subject to continue debating. Though, if you have to go to church for some reason and need a recommendation as to which anti-bacterial to use, I'm your gal.



Anti-bacterial??? biggrin.gif tongue.gif

Arguing about religion is "moo", discussing it isn't. I live in "pagan" Japan, this is not much of a stretch for me...

Don't stray far, we appreciate your input

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 03:57 AM


QUOTE
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 1 2006, 02:26 AM)
Do you believe he had anything to do with 9/11, like with with the help of the American government? 


He was both used as patsy and exploited like Muhammad bin `Abdul Wahab. Both were formed by some type of intelligence agencies. Both had perverse interpretations of Islam. Both appeared as literalists.

If both were legitimate in their cause, then why didn't they not oppose their own rulers? Answer is found through the misinterpretation of hadith, particularily the hadith of corrupt rulers:

"He who sees from his ruler something he dislikes, let him be patient with him, for he who splits away from the Jamaa’ah by a handspan and then dies, dies a death of Jaahiliyyah" and in a narration, "then he has thrown off the yoke of Islam from his neck." Hadith - Al-Bukhari and Muslim, and other narration by at-Tirmidhee (no. 2867) and Ahmad (4/130).


Also, their response is evasive as they want to go to the heart of corruption of Muslim lands, and that being America, is bullsh*t to me.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 04:08 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 1 2006 @ 03:34 AM)
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006 @ 11:47 AM)

I don't mind telling everyone, I just mind getting banned   tongue.gif  .

As for everyone else, like I've always said, arguing religion is a moot point. Or as my 5 year old cousin would say, a "moo" point. I don't even know why I bother, actually I do, it stems from boredom, which is in severe excess around here.

I will say, honestly, that I am not informed enough on the subject to continue debating. Though, if you have to go to church for some reason and need a recommendation as to which anti-bacterial to use, I'm your gal.


Anti-bacterial???  biggrin.gif tongue.gif

Arguing about religion is "moo", discussing it isn't. I live in "pagan" Japan, this is not much of a stretch for me...

Don't stray far, we appreciate your input wink.gif


Anti-bacterial is VERY important when being forced to attend church. I'm surprised I haven't contracted some formidable disease from the hand-shaking and hugging and complete invasion of my personal space. <_<

I am reading several books on the two religions, and this discussion progresses faster than I can read, so my input may be limited at "moo"ing at things for the time being. Or I may just interject stuff to play devil's advocate.

Why, may I ask, do you live in Japan? Just curious. How old is everyone around here anyway? I never can tell.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 04:18 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006 @ 01:08 PM)
I am reading several books on the two religions, and this discussion progresses faster than I can read, so my input may be limited at "moo"ing at things for the time being. Or I may just interject stuff to play devil's advocate.

Why, may I ask, do you live in Japan? Just curious. How old is everyone around here anyway? I never can tell. 


Faster? biggrin.gif I was hopin' to get to the good parts soon - When everyone starts invading everyone else...

I always felt just a little out of place in America, and by a fluke I started studying Japanese about 15 years ago. I came for a visit and got a work offer, and stayed for a year. I went home after that but people started calling me to fly over and work again. After several years the trips got so frequent and I was so tired of flying back and forth that I just moved here. That was about 5 years ago. I don't recommend it, it's quite a culture shock. You start getting serious cravings for real Mexican food... people are nice though. BTW I'm 49.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 1 2006 @ 03:57 AM)
Answer is found through the misinterpretation of hadith, particularily the hadith of corrupt rulers:


Definition:

"Hadith" means "Tradition" or a saying that is attributed to Mahammad. They form something like an unofficial Koran.

Many hadiths are false and misleading.

A few are true.

Discerning the true from the false is as hard for an Islamic average Joe as it is for a US average Joe to understand 9/11.

The hadiths are used in a similar way as false flag ops and the mainstream media to control unsophisticated people.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 PM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 1 2006, 04:39 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 08:13 PM)
Listen, this is kind of getting old. Allah means God in Arabic. So God is God. Allah is Allah. Jehovah is Jehovah. They all mean the same thing in English. God. So God is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, and etc. They're different languages, but same meanings. You believe that God sent His son to die for our sins, but we don't. God does mention Jesus's crucifying in the Qur'an, but only to say it never happened to him. We have different conceptions and beliefs about God, but it is still the same Supreme Being. Don't you believe that your god and the god of the Jews are the same? Don't you hold different beliefs about Him, though? That is the same with us Muslims.


If my God loves the Jews and your God hates them, then obviously they are not the same God. Allah can mean God all it wants to, but when it comes right down to it, when you look at their characteristics, their ideas, their actions, their consequences, they are two completely different Gods. And this is fundamentally where this huge religious conflict occurs.

Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic. So if my God loves Jews and your hates them, and there can only be one God, one of us is wrong. My God created the nation of Israel through Isaac. Yours used Ishmael.

I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful to your beliefs, and I believe you did post some excellent things that I have learned from. I am simply saying we have arrived at the core of this religious conflict.

pr0mythius, as far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, God had to destroy that city because of the nephalim. Nephalim are the offspring of angels having intercourse with humans. I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, but I'll post the verses when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Therefore, people like Hercules in Greek Mythology could have really existed because of this interbreeding of sorts, so myths are perfectly plausible at times.

As for the sex part...the fun stuff wink.gif ...the Bible does not discourage sex, especially with your spouse. Christians who are being legalistic take that entirely out of context. Sex, in addition to being used for procreation, was designed for humans as a means of pleasure when you are married to your right man/right woman. So if you are married, God wants you to do it biggrin.gif . Now, as for having sex when not married, God has a problem with that, but that is no greater of a sin than lying and gossiping is. All sins are equal. Now, if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. The Bible never said you have to be babtised, but for God's sake, don't tell a babtist that.

When I go to church with my boyfriend's family I swear I take antibacterial because everyone in that church will hug you and shake your hand and stand in your personal space, to the point that you feel like you need a shower by the time you get done. I hate going to church.

Like I said, I'm at work, but if anyone needs me, or wants to talk about whatever (I'm bored, trust me), either PM me, email me, or send me a message on myspace at www.myspace.com/imabiggoober

ok playing catch up again.

you are absolutely right .. i've also found this to be the reason for its destruction. but not as some mystical act of God(big G) but rather an attack from god(little g). yep the "angels" were mating with humans and this pissed "god" off. and as i recall "god" was actually annoyed by the noise of his creation and was tired of them and this was one instance when he was dealing with that irritation. much like the "great flood" in which "god" saved a handful of people to start things over to hopefully get it right. and "god" did so not because the world was wicked ... he just didnt like how things turned out .. so he smashed the clay .. so to speak to start over a bit. (notice the frequent use of the little g god)


QUOTE
The summary that follows is provided as an indicator of the glory of Islam in its Golden and how it went on to influence Europe. It was written by George Townshend who was summarizing some chapters of John William Draper’s “The Intellectual Development of Europe” 1853. Every student of religion can benefit greatly by this knowledge.


yes .. all understood .. they were a very intellectual group of people. so is this to say that in matters of religion these people's word should be taken more as truth than the others? i can see the arguement for that, which is why i bring it up. but as they say .. there is a fine line between genius .. and insanity.

QUOTE
I will say, honestly, that I am not informed enough on the subject to continue debating. Though, if you have to go to church for some reason and need a recommendation as to which anti-bacterial to use, I'm your gal.


anti-bacteria soap weakens the immune system. be dirty .. its not bad. i shower on average about once every 3 days. basically when i feel its needed. and use PURE SOAP .. not that oil of olay type crap thats crammed with chemicals. oh and btw .. most shampoo contains human blood. i kid you not. but yea .. i only shower about every 3 days and i only get sick about once a year and it never lasts more than 2 or 3 days.

QUOTE
Anti-bacterial is VERY important when being forced to attend church. I'm surprised I haven't contracted some formidable disease from the hand-shaking and hugging and complete invasion of my personal space.


i agree .. this reminds me of one of my favorite shirts. has this cartoon like guy on the front smiling all big and it says "Wash your hands after touching christians."[laughing] so to anyone that offends .. but yea .. just reminded me of that.

QUOTE
Do you believe he had anything to do with 9/11, like with with the help of the American government?


none whatsoever

QUOTE
I always felt just a little out of place in America, and by a fluke I started studying Japanese about 15 years ago. I came for a visit and got a work offer, and stayed for a year. I went home after that but people started calling me to fly over and work again. After several years the trips got so frequent and I was so tired of flying back and forth that I just moved here. That was about 5 years ago. I don't recommend it, it's quite a culture shock. You start getting serious cravings for real Mexican food... people are nice though. BTW I'm 49. 


i totally feel the same way .. altho i'm still in america ... and in need of such a culture shock. btw i'm 24. whistle.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:11 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 05:24 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Aug 1 2006 @ 04:39 AM)
QUOTE
The summary that follows is provided as an indicator of the glory of Islam in its Golden and how it went on to influence Europe. It was written by George Townshend who was summarizing some chapters of John William Draper’s “The Intellectual Development of Europe” 1853. Every student of religion can benefit greatly by this knowledge.


yes .. all understood .. they were a very intellectual group of people. so is this to say that in matters of religion these people's word should be taken more as truth than the others? i can see the arguement for that, which is why i bring it up. but as they say .. there is a fine line between genius .. and insanity.


Hell no pr0mythius mah man.

I guess I'm trying to indicate that, apart from credit where its due, these people at one time had "the Force" (to use Star Wars language).

So powerful was its influence that even without its associated religion it caused the rebirth of scientific inquiry that we know as the Renaissance.

No I certainly don't want you to take their word over any other.

It was a bunch of fanatical Muslims who butchered 20,000 early Baha'is in Persia, shot our Prophet-Herald, the Bab, with a regiment of 750 rifles in 1850 and imprisoned, tortured and exiled our Founder, Baha'u'llah, to a filthy, disease infested backwater. The only thing that saved Baha'u'llah from joining the 20,000 others was the Russian ambassador who threatend great retribution on Persia if He was harmed.

That's why the Baha'i world center is in Israel. We have no business with the Israelis but during the 1800s Akka was a fortified penal colony of the Ottoman empire and Baha'u'llah was exiled there. [ It says in the Bible that "I will ...give the valley of Achor for a door of hope ...(King James Bible, Hosea 2:15 ) ]

So I most certainly don't think that present day Muslims have any spiritual advantage over any other religious group. They follow a divine Prophet, like the Christians. Their people, like the Christians, have done some horrendous, and some heroic, things over time.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:13 PM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 1 2006, 06:06 AM


ahh yes .. the radicals turned to the dark side. and yes i would say that the early day arabs were very influential. most progression through the ages was usually copies of past policies and ways taken and spun with just a little something new. but as well there has always been a somewhat collective consciousness throughout the world at different times of history. such as darwin studying evolution .. there were several other people around the world at the same time that were studying the same thing, yet they had no connection to each other. this continues today. people everywhere have many great ideas about how a change in society should be implimented .. yet they never cross paths.

intellegence is a common tool used by all that are fortunate enough to posses it. as they say .. great minds think alike. people observe the happenings around them .. of present and past then logically come to conclusions of the futures.

these are esential things that have been programmed in our DNA .. these abilities of forsight. when the scriptures of any holy book say as if the words of God "i will bring you a door of hope." i feel is really saying in leahmans terms "someone will eventually figure it out."

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:14 PM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 03:32 PM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Aug 1 2006 @ 04:39 AM)
QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Jul 31 2006 @ 08:13 PM)

QUOTE
Listen, this is kind of getting old. Allah means God in Arabic. So God is God. Allah is Allah. Jehovah is Jehovah. They all mean the same thing in English. God. So God is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, and etc. They're different languages, but same meanings. You believe that God sent His son to die for our sins, but we don't. God does mention Jesus's crucifying in the Qur'an, but only to say it never happened to him. We have different conceptions and beliefs about God, but it is still the same Supreme Being. Don't you believe that your god and the god of the Jews are the same? Don't you hold different beliefs about Him, though? That is the same with us Muslims.


If my God loves the Jews and your God hates them, then obviously they are not the same God. Allah can mean God all it wants to, but when it comes right down to it, when you look at their characteristics, their ideas, their actions, their consequences, they are two completely different Gods. And this is fundamentally where this huge religious conflict occurs.

Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic. So if my God loves Jews and your hates them, and there can only be one God, one of us is wrong. My God created the nation of Israel through Isaac. Yours used Ishmael.

I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful to your beliefs, and I believe you did post some excellent things that I have learned from. I am simply saying we have arrived at the core of this religious conflict.

pr0mythius, as far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, God had to destroy that city because of the nephalim. Nephalim are the offspring of angels having intercourse with humans. I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, but I'll post the verses when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Therefore, people like Hercules in Greek Mythology could have really existed because of this interbreeding of sorts, so myths are perfectly plausible at times.

As for the sex part...the fun stuff ...the Bible does not discourage sex, especially with your spouse. Christians who are being legalistic take that entirely out of context. Sex, in addition to being used for procreation, was designed for humans as a means of pleasure when you are married to your right man/right woman. So if you are married, God wants you to do it . Now, as for having sex when not married, God has a problem with that, but that is no greater of a sin than lying and gossiping is. All sins are equal. Now, if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. The Bible never said you have to be babtised, but for God's sake, don't tell a babtist that.

When I go to church with my boyfriend's family I swear I take antibacterial because everyone in that church will hug you and shake your hand and stand in your personal space, to the point that you feel like you need a shower by the time you get done. I hate going to church.

Like I said, I'm at work, but if anyone needs me, or wants to talk about whatever (I'm bored, trust me), either PM me, email me, or send me a message on myspace at www.myspace.com/imabiggoober


ok playing catch up again.

you are absolutely right .. i've also found this to be the reason for its destruction. but not as some mystical act of God(big G) but rather an attack from god(little g). yep the "angels" were mating with humans and this pissed "god" off. and as i recall "god" was actually annoyed by the noise of his creation and was tired of them and this was one instance when he was dealing with that irritation. much like the "great flood" in which "god" saved a handful of people to start things over to hopefully get it right. and "god" did so not because the world was wicked ... he just didnt like how things turned out .. so he smashed the clay .. so to speak to start over a bit. (notice the frequent use of the little g god)


QUOTE
The summary that follows is provided as an indicator of the glory of Islam in its Golden and how it went on to influence Europe. It was written by George Townshend who was summarizing some chapters of John William Draper’s “The Intellectual Development of Europe” 1853. Every student of religion can benefit greatly by this knowledge.



yes .. all understood .. they were a very intellectual group of people. so is this to say that in matters of religion these people's word should be taken more as truth than the others? i can see the arguement for that, which is why i bring it up. but as they say .. there is a fine line between genius .. and insanity.

QUOTE
I will say, honestly, that I am not informed enough on the subject to continue debating. Though, if you have to go to church for some reason and need a recommendation as to which anti-bacterial to use, I'm your gal.


anti-bacteria soap weakens the immune system. be dirty .. its not bad. i shower on average about once every 3 days. basically when i feel its needed. and use PURE SOAP .. not that oil of olay type crap thats crammed with chemicals. oh and btw .. most shampoo contains human blood. i kid you not. but yea .. i only shower about every 3 days and i only get sick about once a year and it never lasts more than 2 or 3 days.

QUOTE
Anti-bacterial is VERY important when being forced to attend church. I'm surprised I haven't contracted some formidable disease from the hand-shaking and hugging and complete invasion of my personal space.


i agree .. this reminds me of one of my favorite shirts. has this cartoon like guy on the front smiling all big and it says "Wash your hands after touching christians."[laughing] so to anyone that offends .. but yea .. just reminded me of that.


QUOTE
Do you believe he had anything to do with 9/11, like with with the help of the American government?


none whatsoever

QUOTE
I always felt just a little out of place in America, and by a fluke I started studying Japanese about 15 years ago. I came for a visit and got a work offer, and stayed for a year. I went home after that but people started calling me to fly over and work again. After several years the trips got so frequent and I was so tired of flying back and forth that I just moved here. That was about 5 years ago. I don't recommend it, it's quite a culture shock. You start getting serious cravings for real Mexican food... people are nice though. BTW I'm 49. 



i totally feel the same way .. altho i'm still in america ... and in need of such a culture shock. btw i'm 24. whistle.gif

I would like everyone to note that he said I am absolutely right about something...for once biggrin.gif .

In addition to the whole world being evil, God wiped out everyone except Noah's family in the flood so that there would be no dispute about the lineage of Jesus. Noah's son, Shem, was responsible for the Semitic tribe, which is where we get anti-semitic from. If you trace than blood line, you eventually end up with Jesus.

Actually, anti-bacterial soap does not weaken the immune system, and that is a common misconception. The bacteria actually mutate around the anti-bacterial, so it is not you who is becoming immune to the anti-bacterial, it is the bacteria that is. Then you are left with no anti-bacterial for the new mutation, which is why you get sick. It is not your immune system's fault, it is the overuse of anti-bacterial in unnecesarry intances, like in the shower, as you said with the oil of olay crap.

No, no, Christian people scare me...and that's sad, since I am one. I hate legalism. For instance, there was this guy at church one time with a bumper sticker that said, "You can't be Christian and be pro-choice." I'm a Christian and pro-choice, so he's just a pompous self-righteous @ss. But anti-bacterial is strong protection against Christian-born plagues that manifest themselves throughout pot-luck dinners, babtisms, gospel music, and vacation Bible schools across the nation. Oh, and I also figured out why old people in church have such bad joint problems...it's from the standing up, singing, sitting down, praying, standing up singing, sitting down, listening, standing up, praying routine.

Yay, I found someone who was born in my generation tongue.gif ! No offense, Sanders and Daniels, you are wonderful human beings too.

cheers.gif

Kelly

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:14 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 05:43 PM


QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 1 2006 @ 04:23 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 1 2006 @ 03:57 AM)
Answer is found through the misinterpretation of hadith, particularily the hadith of corrupt rulers:


Definition:

"Hadith" means "Tradition" or a saying that is attributed to Mahammad. They form something like an unofficial Koran.

Many hadiths are false and misleading.

A few are true.

Discerning the true from the false is as hard for an Islamic average Joe as it is for a US average Joe to understand 9/11.

The hadiths are used in a similar way as false flag ops and the mainstream media to control unsophisticated people.


`Ilm al hadith is a complicated system. I would go into the technicalities if anyone wishes.

There are many hadith believed to be weak, but for the Muslims, there are many hadith to be held credible, NOT just a few. Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the collection of hadith which are held the most trustworthy and reliable of all the hadith for the Sunni Muslims. Their authenticity are hardly questioned due to the rigorous standards of verification used by the two authors of the works, Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim. This does not exclude hadith which are also held as strong and credible by Muslims from other collection of works.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:14 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 06:09 PM


Daniels, you have a way of explaining things - I FINALLY understand the concept of the Hadiths.

DAT, you're cracking me up. Stop it! I'm laughing so hard about the Christian kudees thing it hurts ! (My Church was the same way !!! We even had a blue-grass band, 0ur Ministor played banjo)

Sinewy and GM10, I'm reading and rereading everything you write - us Christians never get the chance to understand what Islam is about, to hear it from the horse's mouth.

My intent was simply to try and generalize the history of the 3 religions. So far, we haven't done too well as far as the history goes, but we've struck to the heart of the issue. Didn't take long, and were all still here, and not fighting. To me that says something. It should be obvious that we are all just people. Sinewy is a Muslim. Does that mean he's a terrorist? Of course not. Do I, as an American Christian, support the occupation of Iraq? Hell no. Are there Americans that do? Yes. Are there Muslims that hate America? Yes. Do they have good reason? Yes. Are our differences being magnified to promote violence in the world? YES !!! That is the point. That is why I wanted to talk about what our different religions really say. Not much, nothing profound, just talk. If there are any Jewish lurkers out there, I want you HERE. I want to hear your viewpoint as well. We are all victims, we are all being played against each other.

I'm ready to talk about the kingdoms of David and Solomon. Those were the years that the Jewish religion really came into fruition. Those were the kingdoms that set the stage for everything that came after.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:15 PM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 1 2006 @ 06:09 PM)
Daniels, you have a way of explaining things - I FINALLY understand the concept of the Hadiths.

DAT, you're cracking me up.  Stop it!  I'm laughing so hard about the Christian kudees thing it hurts !  (My Church was the same way !!!  We even had a blue-grass band, 0ur Ministor played banjo)

Sinewy and GM10, I'm reading and  rereading everything you write - us Christians never get the chance to understand what Islam is about, to hear it from the horse's mouth.

My intent was simply to try and generalize the history of the 3 religions.  So far, we haven't done too well as far as the history goes, but we've struck to the heart of the issue.  Didn't take long, and were all still here, and not fighting.  To me that says something. It should be obvious that we are all just people.  Sinewy is a Muslim.  Does that mean he's  a terrorist?  Of course not.  Do I, as an American Christian, support the occupation of Iraq?  Hell no.  Are there Americans that do?  Yes.  Are there Muslims that hate America?  Yes.  Do they have good reason?  Yes.  Are our differences being magnified to promote violence in the world?  YES !!!    That is the point.  That is why I wanted to talk about what our different religions really say.  Not much, nothing profound, just talk.  If there are any Jewish lurkers out there, I want you HERE.  I want to hear your viewpoint as well.  We are all victims, we are all being played against each other. 

I'm ready to talk about the kingdoms of David and Solomon.  Those were the years that the Jewish religion really came into fruition.  Those were the kingdoms that set the stage for everything that came after.


Man, banjos are freakin' hot. So is anti-bacterial. wink.gif I just sit there and glare are the wall in church, so people think I'm possessed and angry, and then they pray for me in the comfort of their own homes and thank God that I am not their child. Frankly, I thank God I am not their child.

When I get time this week, I will start writing what I have found out in regards to the Bible. This is an important topic and we need to keep it going in a civilized manner, unless I have offended someone in my anti-bacterial rantings. I promise I will contribute something of substance soon.

Kelly

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:15 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 1 2006, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 1 2006 @ 05:24 AM)
So I most certainly don't think that present day Muslims have any spiritual advantage over any other religious group. They follow a divine Prophet, like the Christians. Their people, like the Christians, have done some horrendous, and some heroic, things over time. 

We don't follow a divine prophet. We follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and he is nothing more than a messenger of God.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:15 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 2 2006, 12:33 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 1 2006 @ 10:13 PM)
We don't follow a divine prophet.  We follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and he is nothing more than a messenger of God.


Good point GreatMuslim10.

I'm trying to use a language that all will readily relate to.

In my religion we refer to the Holy Prophets of God as "Manifestations of God", or "Manifestations". Problem is, unless there are other Baha'is on this board, no-one but me would know what that means.

Baha'is view all creation as occupying different "kingdoms".

The mineral kingdom has the power of cohesion.
The plant kingdom includes the power of the mineral but adds the power of augmentation -- growth.
The animal kingdom includes the powers of those kingdoms below it and adds the power of the senses.
The human kingdom has the power of cohesion, growth, the senses and adds the power of the intellect -- which gives us our great inventions and arts.
The next Kingdom is that of the holy Manifestations. We cannot know Their power because They occupy a Kingdom above us. Just as the plant cannot comprehend the power of the animal, the Manifestations of God are exalted beyond our comprehension.

To a Baha'i, Adam, Noah, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, all belong to that Plane of existence. All are exalted, holy, venerated and cherished for Their great sacrifices in bringing to humankind the life-giving teachings of God.

There is an interesting pattern to these Holy Manifestations.

If we look closely we can see that the Jews accept Adam, and Noah (more or less) but refuse to acknowledge Christ.

Christians accept Moses, Noah and Adam (again, more or less) but refuse to acknowledge Muhammad.

The Muslims accept Christ, Moses, Noah and Adam but refuse to accept the Bab and Baha'u'llah -- the Manifestations of the Baha'i Faith. In fact some fanatical ones executed the Bab, imprisoned Baha'u'llah, butchered over 20,000 gentle Baha'is and to this day, in Iran at least, continue to persecute the Baha'is (a couple of hundred Baha'is were killed in the 1980s for being Baha'is).

Interesting how the cycles of history operate.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:15 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 2 2006, 01:12 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006 @ 03:32 PM)
Yay, I found someone who was born in my generation tongue.gif  ! No offense, Sanders and Daniels, you are wonderful human beings too.


No offense taken.

I'm just as delighted when I recognize someone on this board of my own vintage. No offense to you young-uns.

You younsters are the engine room of the ship of humanity. We older rudders play our part too though we sometimes look back with fondness to when we were the engines.

And I am so very pleased that there are dynamic young people like you Kelly, Pr0mythius, Bahreem, etc. who are sane, sensible and keen truthers.

Go get 'em you young ones.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:15 PM

Posted by: water_bender Aug 2 2006, 01:52 AM

QUOTE
pr0mythius, as far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, God had to destroy that city because of the nephalim. Nephalim are the offspring of angels having intercourse with humans. I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, but I'll post the verses when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Therefore, people like Hercules in Greek Mythology could have really existed because of this interbreeding of sorts, so myths are perfectly plausible at times.


this is incorrect. sodom and gomorrah were destroyed for thier severe imorality. for thier perversion. lot was allowed to escape so long as he didnt look back... the flood was the intended destruction of the nephalim. though it didnt work 100% some nephalim survived, as goliath is an example of such a person. you are right about the nephalim being half angel, they arose from the watchers. the watchers were a choir of angels sent to watch over and safe guard the humans. but they fell in love with the 'daughters of man' and procreated with them. (see some of us are part alien afterall tongue.gif )

n Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that He plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that He would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even 10 righteous people. The Lord's two angels only find one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with His plans to destroy the city.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 04:33 AM


As for the story of the Prophet Lot (pbuh) and the city of Sodom in Islam, here it is:
Lot was a prophet listed in the Qur'an and known as Lut in Arabic.


According to Islamic tradition, Lot lived in Ur and was a nephew of Abraham (Arabic:Ibrahim). He was commanded by God to go to the land of Sodom and Gomorra (Arabic:Sadum) where the people were well-known for their indulgence in homosexual lifestyles. When he arrived there, the people ridiculed his teachings and ignored him.

God's repeated offer of forgiveness was communicated by Lot but each time it fell on deaf ears.

And Lot, when he said to his tribe: "Do you commit an obscenity not perpetrated before you by anyone in all the worlds? You come with lust to men instead of women. You are indeed a depraved tribe." The only answer of his tribe was to say: "Expel them from your city! They are people who keep themselves pure!" So We rescued him and his family-except for his wife. She was one of those who stayed behind. We rained down a rain upon them. See the final fate of the evildoers! (Qur'an, 7:80-84)
Lot, who was a patient, determined, and courageous servant, manifested his joyous faith in and respect for God. His tribe's mockery and attacks only reinforced his enthusiasm and determination. Like all of the other prophets, he continued to command what is good and forbid what is evil, thus scrupulously fulfilling his God-given duty.

Of all beings, do you lie with males, leaving the wives God has created for you? You are a people who have overstepped the limits." They said: "Lot, if you do not desist, you will be expelled." He said: "I am someone who detests the deed you perpetrate. (Qur'an, 26:165)
The Biblical stories of Lot's incestuous relationship with his daughters are considered a perversion and blasphemous in Islam, as such an action would remove a man from being a prophet of God in the Islamic view.

The Qur'an tells that Lot was willing to offer his daughters — or, as some scholars suggest, young women of his tribe — so that people would turn away from the prohibited act of homosexuality.

His tribe came running to him excitedly — they were long used to committing evil acts. He said: "My people, here are my daughters. They are purer for you. So fear God and do not shame me with my guests. Is there not one rightly-guided man among you?" They said: "You know we have no claim on your daughters. You know very well what we want." (Qur'an, 11:78-79)
But this, too, was of little importance to the people. Then finally the angels disguised as two men came to Lot. They gave him the news of the imminent destruction of the city's people, and God ordered the prophet to take away his selected people and leave his wife, and not to look back upon the city.

We also sent Lot: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" (Qur'an 7:80-82)
Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)! They said: "If thou desist not, O Lot! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings:" "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. (Qur'an 26:165-175)
Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! But his people gave no other answer but this: They said, "Drive out the followers of Lut from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We destined to be of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! (Qur'an 27:55-58)
And (remember) Lot: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? - and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth. (Qur'an 29:28-29)

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 2 2006, 05:45 AM


QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 1 2006 @ 03:32 PM)
I would like everyone to note that he said I am absolutely right about something...for once  biggrin.gif  .

In addition to the whole world being evil, God wiped out everyone except Noah's family in the flood so that there would be no dispute about the lineage of Jesus. Noah's son, Shem, was responsible for the Semitic tribe, which is where we get anti-semitic from. If you trace than blood line, you eventually end up with Jesus.

Actually, anti-bacterial soap does not weaken the immune system, and that is a common misconception. The bacteria actually mutate around the anti-bacterial, so it is not you who is becoming immune to the anti-bacterial, it is the bacteria that is. Then you are left with no anti-bacterial for the new mutation, which is why you get sick. It is not your immune system's fault, it is the overuse of anti-bacterial in unnecesarry intances, like in the shower, as you said with the oil of olay crap.

No, no, Christian people scare me...and that's sad, since I am one. I hate legalism. For instance, there was this guy at church one time with a bumper sticker that said, "You can't be Christian and be pro-choice." I'm a Christian and pro-choice, so he's just a pompous self-righteous @ss. But anti-bacterial is strong protection against Christian-born plagues that manifest themselves throughout pot-luck dinners, babtisms, gospel music, and vacation Bible schools across the nation. Oh, and I also figured out why old people in church have such bad joint problems...it's from the standing up, singing, sitting down, praying, standing up singing, sitting down, listening, standing up, praying routine.

Yay, I found someone who was born in my generation tongue.gif ! No offense, Sanders and Daniels, you are wonderful human beings too.

cheers.gif 

Kelly 


ok start from the beginning ... perhaps this is reason that the bible gives for the flood .. at least one reason .. i dont recall. but i for one dont believe that noah's family was the only one to survive.(notice how the bible always goes back to incest? hmmmm) i have reason to believe that the "great flood" only occurred on one side of the world. not like the seas just suddenly rose 5 miles .. thats pretty much impossible. so .. in saying that the earth was only flooded on one side .. cant be certain there were not other people that survived.

the soap thing .. sounds logical .. i just know that people being obsessed about germs and cleanliness is leading to thier demise. i'm not a filthy person .. but i dont use any of that anti-bacteria junk. when i drop food on the floor .. i pick it up and eat it(just blow on it .. it'll be ok). and something tells me i have a better chance of surviving some biological attack that your average "OMG I MUST WASH MY HANDS 47 TIMES A DAY." who knows .. i could have a bacteria in me that would kick ebolas ass!

and yes ... i hate that connection with christian people .. the whole pro-life crap .. as if that just MUST be if you're christian. i have a bumper sticker on my car that says "friends dont let friends vote republican" .. first time my dad saw it, he said "so what you for abortion now?" angry.gif i need to find another bumpersticker to compliment that one "friends dont let friends vote democrat" then lets see what he has to say.

oh .. question .. why the hell does every church pot luck dinner have to have deviled eggs? i've never seen one without them. and why call them deviled eggs? and since they're called that .. why do church people love them so much?


QUOTE
  You younsters are the engine room of the ship of humanity. We older rudders play our part too though we sometimes look back with fondness to when we were the engines.

And I am so very pleased that there are dynamic young people like you Kelly, Pr0mythius, Bahreem, etc. who are sane, sensible and keen truthers.



thank you -bows-altho i'm not quite that young ... 24 ... so does that mean i could be like a host in the dinning hall of the ship? tongue.gif

QUOTE
this is incorrect. sodom and gomorrah were destroyed for thier severe imorality. for thier perversion. lot was allowed to escape so long as he didnt look back... the flood was the intended destruction of the nephalim. though it didnt work 100% some nephalim survived, as goliath is an example of such a person. you are right about the nephalim being half angel, they arose from the watchers. the watchers were a choir of angels sent to watch over and safe guard the humans. but they fell in love with the 'daughters of man' and procreated with them. (see some of us are part alien afterall )

n Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that He plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that He would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even 10 righteous people. The Lord's two angels only find one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with His plans to destroy the city.

bless you for using the world alien. nice to have someone else around here not afraid to use the word.
(side note ... from now on when referring to the god of the bible .. i'm going to use the name Anu .. when referring to the creator of the universe i will use the term God ... so yea .. this way i can keep it straight)
I think there was both going on. but when you are talking righteous people ... this would say that Anu examined the people .. and i imagine they were just materialistic people like you would find in any city. the one part of scripture that deals with this that i cant get over .. is the part where it talks about the "angels" being at lots house .. i think it was .. and it says that the men of the town surrounded the house as started yelling "bring out your visitors so that we can have sex with them." [laugh] first off .. if the city is really that bad ... why would they tell them to come out .. why didnt they just force thier way in? personally i think that line is crap .. but its in there .. i forget exactly where .. but its there.

but yes one reason i think that Anu told abraham and lot n them not to look back as they left was because they wouldnt be able to comprehend what was going on. i do NOT think that the woman turned to salt when she looked back. good bedtime story twist .. but yea .. not likely.

oh one more thing on this .. the nephalim still live today. does anyone recall the 11 foot man that soldiers encountered in the mountains of afghanistan? soldiers entered this cave that had many bones scattered at the entrance .. upon entering they found this giant man with massive strength .. the man was "unpleased" with the soldiers presence .. and began to hurl rocks at them .. but not just any rocks .. ones weighing close to a metric ton. a soldier involved said it took nearly a full minute of gunfire from every troop to take the man down. the giants body smelled of a sulfuric odor.(lines up with the biblical description of this race of beings)here's a small article about a tomb that was found for one of these creatures .. with a pic at the bottom of a man holding the turban of the giant:http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2005/11/07.html
there are probably more of these ... question is .. where are they? i have my theories .. but nothing concrete.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 2 2006, 06:33 AM

QUOTE
the soap thing .. sounds logical .. i just know that people being obsessed about germs and cleanliness is leading to thier demise. i'm not a filthy person .. but i dont use any of that anti-bacteria junk. when i drop food on the floor .. i pick it up and eat it(just blow on it .. it'll be ok). and something tells me i have a better chance of surviving some biological attack that your average "OMG I MUST WASH MY HANDS 47 TIMES A DAY." who knows .. i could have a bacteria in me that would kick ebolas ass!

and yes ... i hate that connection with christian people .. the whole pro-life crap .. as if that just MUST be if you're christian. i have a bumper sticker on my car that says "friends dont let friends vote republican" .. first time my dad saw it, he said "so what you for abortion now?"  i need to find another bumpersticker to compliment that one "friends dont let friends vote democrat" then lets see what he has to say.

oh .. question .. why the hell does every church pot luck dinner have to have deviled eggs? i've never seen one without them. and why call them deviled eggs? and since they're called that .. why do church people love them so much?


Isn't there like a 10 second rule regarding dropped food? I don't know, the floor has never bothered me all too much. I cultured the bacteria off of my hand in lab yesterday, and turns out, I have penicillium...so if you contract a bacterial infection, I suppose I could rub my hand on it and your problems would be solved tongue.gif ...but preferably not in provocative areas...

I'm not sure about the deviled eggs tradition there, but I guarantee you I have learned to make some excellent deviled eggs in my time. I avoid pot lucks at all costs.

And 24 isn't that old at all.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 2 2006, 06:41 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 2 2006 @ 06:33 AM)
Isn't there like a 10 second rule regarding dropped food? I don't know, the floor has never bothered me all too much. I cultured the bacteria off of my hand in lab yesterday, and turns out, I have penicillium...so if you contract a bacterial infection, I suppose I could rub my hand on it and your problems would be solved tongue.gif  ...but preferably not in provocative areas...

I'm not sure about the deviled eggs tradition there, but I guarantee you I have learned to make some excellent deviled eggs in my time. I avoid pot lucks at all costs.

And 24 isn't that old at all. 


i believe its a 5 second rule ... but the guys on myth busters disproved that theory .. wiether its 1 second or 10 .. same amount of bacteria was found on the food after i think it was a 4 hour time period.

and no 24 is not old ... but they say you're only as old as you feel .. in which case i'm 64.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 2 2006, 07:36 AM

just thought i'd throw something out there .. see what thoughts anyone might have.

lucid dreaming .... a dream state in which one is conscious enough to recognize that one is in the dream state and which stays in one's memory. anyone ever read much into this? over the past 3-4 years i've been learning quite a bit about it. since i was around 12 years old i was able to do this. at the time i had no clue what lucid dreaming was. i just did it. i could realize when i was dreaming and control certain parts of dream. for instance.

at first when i found i could realize when i was dreaming ... i would attempt to fly .. so i would flap my arms like a bird and after several tries i was able to levitate ... but at first i could never go above the tree line. as if that was my ceiling or something. well ... long story short. ever since then i would train myself to do different things in my dreams. now i've developed what could only be described as super powers. i can change the scenary .. the people there .. and can fly like superman .. even into space .. but i cant seem to get past the moon. something keeps stopping me. kind of like that playstation game ATV offroad .. where if you go too far off the map it BLASTS you back like several hundred yards.

anyone else have experience with such things?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 2 2006, 10:53 AM


[QUOTE=pr0mythius @ Aug 2 2006, 07:36 AM]anyone else have experience with such things?

Yes, I have experienced something like that. I find it amuzing that things can be so meaningful in the dream state yet when I analyze it with the still-conscious part of my mind it sounds ludicrous. As soon as that happens I surface above the dream level and the dream itself seems to go from 3d to 2d, a bit like the opening sequence of "Carnivale" where the camera would zoom in on a card and as we got close to the card the pictures on the card would become 3d and we would enter 'the card'.

Here's a few snippets from the Baha'i Writings regarding dreams:

"...thy spirit, having transcended the limitations of sleep and having stripped itself of all earthly attachment, hath, by the act of God, been made to traverse a realm which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world."

"Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths. One of the created phenomena is the dream. Behold how many secrets are deposited therein, how many wisdoms treasured up, how many worlds concealed."

"Now there are many wisdoms to ponder in the dream, which none but the people of this Valley
[THE VALLEY OF WONDERMENT (the 6th of 7 Valleys)] can comprehend in their true elements
."

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:17 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 2 2006, 12:57 PM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 2 2006 @ 03:33 PM)
QUOTE
...why the hell does every church pot luck dinner have to have deviled eggs? i've never seen one without them. and why call them deviled eggs? and since they're called that .. why do church people love them so much?


Isn't there like a 10 second rule regarding dropped food?


I thought it was 3 seconds ohmy.gif

Deviled eggs ... hmmmm never thought of that Must have something to do with the illuminati


I'm just gonna bulldozer forward - try to make my way across a few more centuries -

So Saul was the first king of Isreal (before that they had "judges", in fact there's the book of Judges, this is a time when the Israelites were battling the Canaanites), I'm skipping a whole lot of stuff probably, like Samson (guy who derived his power from his long hair, of Samson and Delilah fame), and Ruth, so then they elect their first king, who was Saul, Saul's the guy who screwed up by not killing all the Amalekites to the last cow. His weakness isn't forgiven, and Samuel, the head prophet of the day, tells him his days are numbered:

"I shall not return to you for you have rejected the word of the Lord and the Lord has rejected you from being King over Israel."

And Samuel turned to go and he [Saul] seized the hem of his robe and it tore. And Samuel said to him, "The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it your fellow who is better than you.'" (1 Samuel 15:26-28)

So Samuel goes looking for the next king and finds himself in Bethlehem talking to Jesse - Jesse has 7 sons and Samuel looks them all over and says, not bad, but do you have any others? To which Jesse replies, well there's the little tyke tending sheep right now... So Samuel has a look at little David and says "That's the one, there's our new king!".

The Israelites are constantly battling the Philistines (among other Arab tribes) who live in what is now Gaza (a strip of land along the sea in the south of Israel ... In fact, the term "Palestinian" is derived from "Philistine" and was first used by the Romans to denote the Jews of "Palestine" to insult them - some claim it is incorrect to call the Palestinian people Palestinian... a fine point though). Anyway, the Philistines were not descended from Ishmael and so were not strictly 'Arab', they have nothing to do with today's Palestinians and for all I can tell are an extinct people - but they were a formidable foe that caused the Israelites a lot of problems. One of their warriors was Goliath.

Goliath is a giant, and is standing out in front of the Philistine lines shouting insults at the Israelites, and no one is brave enough to take him on. Enter David. David is carrying food for the troops (still too young to be in the army) and he volunteers to take on Goliath - Samuel (the prophet) says "Go and may God be with you" and David slays him with a slingshot and cuts of his head... the Philistines go running.

The moral of the story is, supposedly, "Not by strength, not by might, but with My spirit," says the Lord of Hosts." (Zechariah 4:6)

Soon Saul is killed in battle and David, insanely popular by now, becomes king.

David conquers the last pockets of resistance, Gaza, and Jeruselem, which he makes his Capitol.

I ran across an interesting fact about Jeruselem. In the last 3000 years, this piece of real estate has been conquered or destroyed 36 times (!). Eeeeeverybody wants Jeruselem.

David seduces a woman he spys, Bathsheba, and gets into some trouble over it (she's not exactly single at the time) - which is sort of complicated and I don't remember the whole story, but anyway David is punished by their first child dying, then Bathsheba bears him another son, Solomon. David dies, Solomon becomes king at 12 yo.

Solomon is the "wisest of all men", builds Solomon's temple where the Arc of the Conenant is housed (the Arc holds the actual 10 commandments), and reigns for 40 years.

Regarding the reign of Solomon,

QUOTE
This is the pinnacle of Jewish history. Everyone is united. Their neighbors don't bother the Jews -- in fact, they come to learn from the Jews. There is peace and prosperity.

This is as good as it gets for Israel. This is the zenith. So why doesn't this golden age last?

Solomon makes one big mistake. He takes too many wives. In fact, he has 700 wives and 300 concubines.

God is pissed at Solomon for being so extravagant, and promises to take it out on his son, Rehoboam, after he becomes king and Solomon is dead.

What basically happens is, the 10 norther tribes start complaining about the high taxes being extorted to build up Jeruselem. Rehoboam says ''screw you" and the 10 tribes secede, calling themselves "Israel". Jeruselem and the lower 2 tribes come to be known as "Judah".

The 10 northern tribes then go through a long period of moral decline and bad rulers, and fall prey to corruption and idolatry (placing golden calves in their new temples etc.). The old-testament God of course will have none of that, so in come the Assyrians from the north who conquer the northern tribes one by one and displace them, scattering the 10 tribes all over Assyria - these people are "assymilated" and become the "10 lost tribes of Israel".

We're now about 500 years before Christ.

Corrections, additions, commentary welcome.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:17 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 2 2006, 01:01 PM

Oh yeah, lucid dreaming. I used to do that all the time as a kid. I would be in 2 states of consciousness at once, dreaming about one thing and doing something completely different at the same time while talking nonsense to my mom. She was certain I was crazy, I'd remember it all later. I remember it felt reeeaaally good. Bizarre - hadn't thought of that in years.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:17 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 02:00 PM

Are David and Solomon regarded as prophets of God in Judaism and Christianity?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:17 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 02:13 PM

Here is the story of Prophet David according to the Islam:

David (Arabic: ?????, D?w?d), is one of the prophets of Islam, to whom the Psalms (Arabic: Zabur) were revealed by God. Muslims reject the Biblical portrayal of David as an adulterer and murderer. This is based on the Islamic belief in the righteousness of prophets.

Goliath appears in the Qur'an as Jalut, which is Arabic for Goliath; and like Judaism, Goliath's slayer is David. In Chapter 2, verse 251, the text quotes the one God Himself: "And David slew Goliath, and God gave him kingdom and wisdom, and taught him of what He pleased." David was in Saul's (Arabic:Talut's) army.
In Chapter 5, verse 78, God says: "Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit."

In Chapter 21, verses 78-80, God says: "And David and Solomon when they gave judgment concerning the field when the people's sheep pastured therein by night, and We were bearers of witness to their judgment. So We made Solomon to understand it; and to each one We gave wisdom and knowledge; and We made the mountains, and the birds to celebrate Our praise with David; and We were the doers. And We taught him the making of coats of mail for you, that they might protect you in your wars; will you then be grateful? "

Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn Mas`ud said: "Grapes which had grown and their bunches were spoiled by the sheep. David ruled that the owner of the grapes should keep the sheep. Solomon (Arabic: Sulayman) said, "Not like this, O Prophet of God!" David said, "How then?" Solomon said: "Give the grapes to the owner of the sheep and let him tend them until they grow back as they were, and give the sheep to the owner of the grapes and let him benefit from them until the grapes have grown back as they were. Then the grapes should be given back to their owner, and the sheep should be given back to their owner."

When he recited the Psalms in a beautiful manner, the birds would stop and hover in the air, and would repeat after him, and the mountains would respond and echo his words. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) passed by Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari while he was reciting Qur'an at night, and he had a very beautiful voice, he stopped and listened to his recitation, and said: "This man has been given one of the wind instruments (nice voices) of the family of David." He said: "O Messenger of God, if I had known that you were listening, I would have done my best for you."

In Chapter 34, verses 10-11, God says: "And certainly We gave to David excellence from Us: O mountains! sing praises with him, and the birds; and We made the iron pliant to him, Saying: Make ample (coats of mail), and assign a time to the making of coats of mail and do good; surely I am seeing what you do."

In Chapter 38, verses 17-26, God says: "And remember Our servant David, the possessor of power; surely he was frequent in returning (to God). Surely We made the mountains to sing the glory (of God) in unison with him at the evening and the sunrise, And We strengthened his kingdom and We gave him wisdom and a clear judgment. And has there come to you the story of the litigants, when they made an entry into the private chamber by ascending over the walls? When they entered in upon David and he was frightened at them, they said: Fear not; two litigants, of whom one has acted wrongfully towards the other, therefore decide between us with justice, and do not act unjustly, and guide us to the right way. Surely this is my brother; he has ninety-nine ewes and I have a single ewe; but he said: Make it over to me, and he has prevailed against me in discourse. He said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; and David was sure that We had tried him, so he sought the protection of his Lord and he fell down bowing and turned time after time (to Him). Therefore We rectified for him this, and most surely he had a nearness to Us and an excellent resort. o David ! surely We have made you a ruler in the land; so judge between men with justice and do not follow desire, lest it should lead you astray from the path of God; (as for) those who go astray from the path of God, they shall surely have a severe punishment because they forgot the day of reckoning."

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:17 PM

Posted by: Hound Aug 2 2006, 02:19 PM

Sanders:

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the story of David and Goliath is a myth?

However, I'm not sure that you are aware that the stories about David and Solomon are likewise mythical. Most people and def. the xtians take them as history. We have this problem earlier mentioned, that xtians believe in religious myths as historical reality. This creates a great deal of confusion.

David/Solomon and the Jewish kingdom are complete fantasies. This supposed "empire" left no monuments, no artifacts. Neither David or Solomon are mentioned in the huge corpus of state records of either Egypt or Assyria.

From this we can safely conclude that these biblical stories are myths with no basis in historical reality.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:18 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim1 Aug 2 2006, 02:21 PM

Here is the story of Prophet Solomon according to Islam:
In the Qur'an, Solomon (Arabic: Sulayman) is a son of the Prophet David (Arabic: Dawud). He is told to have learned much from his father, and subsequently made a prophet by God and given power over all creatures, including the jinns. Ruling a large kingdom that extended south into Yemen, he was known throughout the lands for his wisdom and fair judgements.

Solomon is said to have been given control over various elements, such as the wind and transportation. In addition he had excellent relations with the Jinn as well as animals. Thus the Quran says,

And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire. [Quran 34:12]

And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. [Quran 27:17]

And Solomon was accordingly grateful of God, he says

"O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from God)." [Quran 27:16]
A well-known story of Solomon involves his interactions with the Queen of Sheba, Bilqis (possibly Makeda in English). Solomon comes to know about the ruler through a talking hoopoe who states:

"I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.[Quran 27:23]

According to the story, she was a wise ruler, but her people worshipped the sun. Solomon invites her to submit to "God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful". Upon receiving such a letter she requests advise from her chiefs, who are most willing to make war. The Queen, however, responds:

"Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the noblest of its people its meanest thus do they behave. But I am going to send him a present, and (wait) to see with what (answer) return (my) ambassadors." [Quran 27:34-5]

And so the Queen sends gifts to Solomon. These gifts offend Solomon, who is satisfied with that which God has granted him, and he begins to make preparations for war. Meanwhile the envoys of the Queen return with the gifts, and the Queen decides to personally visit Solomon. At this point Solomon decides to test the Queen. He orders a Jinn to bring the Queen's throne from her palace before she reaches Solomon's court. The Jinn executes the command "within the twinkling of an eye". Upon her arrival, the Queen is asked to identify the throne. The Queen not only identifies the throne but also states that she had known the power of Solomon and his God in advance and had decided to submit to God. Solomon, however, demonstrates to her another miracle of God:

She was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He [Solomon] said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass (and the water in underneath the glass)." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Solomon, to the Lord of the Worlds." [Quran 27:44]

It is said that the Queen married Solomon thereafter.

According to the Quran, the death of Solomon was a lesson to be learned,

Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff: so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task). [Quran 34:14]

When Solomon was to die, he stood up in prayer holding his cane. There he silently passed away, but, by God's will, did not fall. He remained in this position, and everyone including the Jinns thought that he was still alive. Finally God ordered a termite to weaken the cane so that the body of Solomon fell. It was thereafter believed that the Jinn (along with all humans) did not know everything and only God had knowledge of all.

In the Qur'an a reference is also made to the writings of Solomon, the so called Book(s) of Wisdom. Jesus knew these writing according 5:110: "I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave"

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:18 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 11:55 PM

QUOTE (Hound @ Aug 2 2006 @ 10:19 AM)
Sanders:

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the story of David and Goliath is a myth?

However, I'm not sure that you are aware that the stories about David and Solomon are likewise mythical. Most people and def. the xtians take them as history. We have this problem earlier mentioned, that xtians believe in religious myths as historical reality. This creates a great deal of confusion.

David/Solomon and the Jewish kingdom are complete fantasies. This supposed "empire" left no monuments, no artifacts. Neither David or Solomon are mentioned in the huge corpus of state records of either Egypt or Assyria.

From this we can safely conclude that these biblical stories are myths with no basis in historical reality. 


I beg to differ.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:18 PM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 3 2006, 06:26 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 2 2006 @ 11:55 PM)
QUOTE (Hound @ Aug 2 2006 @ 10:19 AM)
Sanders:

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the story of David and Goliath is a myth?

However, I'm not sure that you are aware that the stories about David and Solomon are likewise mythical. Most people and def. the xtians take them as history. We have this problem earlier mentioned, that xtians believe in religious myths as historical reality. This creates a great deal of confusion.

David/Solomon and the Jewish kingdom are complete fantasies. This supposed "empire" left no monuments, no artifacts. Neither David or Solomon are mentioned in the huge corpus of state records of either Egypt or Assyria.

From this we can safely conclude that these biblical stories are myths with no basis in historical reality. 


I beg to differ. 


As do I.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:18 PM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 3 2006, 08:52 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 3 2006 @ 06:26 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 2 2006 @ 11:55 PM)

QUOTE (Hound @ Aug 2 2006 @ 10:19 AM)
Sanders:

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the story of David and Goliath is a myth?

However, I'm not sure that you are aware that the stories about David and Solomon are likewise mythical. Most people and def. the xtians take them as history. We have this problem earlier mentioned, that xtians believe in religious myths as historical reality. This creates a great deal of confusion.

David/Solomon and the Jewish kingdom are complete fantasies. This supposed "empire" left no monuments, no artifacts. Neither David or Solomon are mentioned in the huge corpus of state records of either Egypt or Assyria.

From this we can safely conclude that these biblical stories are myths with no basis in historical reality. 


I beg to differ. 


As do I. 


and i differ to beg tongue.gif
arent there monuments and artifacts of colomon's rule in africa? where the gold mines were thought to be? and then there's the stoy of the knights templar that was looking for solomon's treasure. -shrug- i'm a lil rusty on this part ... and i just woke up.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:18 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 3 2006, 09:09 AM


QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Aug 3 2006 @ 05:52 PM)
and i differ to beg   

Haha

I figure there's a seed of truth in most of it, with about 80% made up or exagerated stuff. That's my guess. But it doesn't make any of it any the less relevant - because of all the people that have believed in it.

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10)
A well-known story of Solomon involves his interactions with the Queen of Sheba, Bilqis (possibly Makeda in English). Solomon comes to know about the ruler through a talking hoopoe who states:

"I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.[Quran 27:23]



Supposedly the Queen of Sheba was a descendent of Ishmael

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:19 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 3 2006, 09:04 PM

Back to the story of Joseph, I believe the Bible runs against the historical evidence.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:19 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 3 2006, 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 3 2006 @ 05:04 PM)
Back to the story of Joseph, I believe the Bible runs against the historical evidence. 


What do you mean? How?

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:19 PM

Posted by: free_me Aug 3 2006, 11:07 PM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Aug 3 2006 @ 02:52 AM)
arent there monuments and artifacts of colomon's rule in africa? 


Myths. Bayblon and Jerusalem are myths, too.

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:19 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 4 2006, 01:51 AM

I kind of think we've talked about this Myth vs. Fact thing enough - obviously most of what is in the Bible or the Qu'ran is unsupportable from archaeological evidence. People have the right to believe or reject these stories just as much as they are due the right to believe in whatever version of whatever religion they want - the point here is to follow the time lines of the 3 religions to try to shed some light on the present conflicts. If we argue circularly about whether or not the stories are true or myths everytime we enter a new era we'll never get anywhere. If that's what everyone wants to do, that's fine too, but I was hoping to get to the real meat and potatoes stuff - the Crusades, the spread of Islam (was it a violent or peaceful revolution?), the stunting of growth in the Arab world under the Ottomans, the real reasons behind WWI, the founding of Israel. Terrorism in north Africa and the nationalizing of the oil in the Middle East are also connected.

I thought it should be approached chronologically, mainly because I worried if it could be done civilly or not - but I'm not worried about that now. Maybe this should be more of a free for all - ? That way we can start getting GreatMuslim and Sinewy's takes on the history of Islam, the spead of Christianity is no less interesting and DAT or others might have some input...

One thing that ought to be looked into first though, is why the Jewish nation died? The stronghold of the Jewish faith was not in the northern 10 tribes, but in Judah (the southern 2 tribes and Jeruselem). The Babylonians came and conquered these people, but only carried a small portion (the leaders supposedly) off into slavery in Babylon (I know some will say this too is Myth - doesn't matter, it is the account that Jews believe, that makes it relevant). Was this the deathknell of ancient Israel?
After the Babylonians the Greeks, then the Romans occupied the same real estate. Was it the Romans that finally but an end to the first Israel experiment?

Things I think about... just trying to keep things interesting.

PS I may be gone for 2 weeks - have to travel for work, don't know if the hotel will have ADSL or not. Cheers to all

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:19 PM

Posted by: usediscernment Aug 4 2006, 03:16 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 4 2006 @ 01:51 AM)
I kind of think we've talked about this Myth vs. Fact thing enough - obviously most of what is in the Bible or the Qu'ran is unsupportable from archaeological evidence. People have the right to believe or reject these stories just as much as they are due the right to believe in whatever version of whatever religion they want - the point here is to follow the time lines of the 3 religions to try to shed some light on the present conflicts. If we argue circularly about whether or not the stories are true or myths everytime we enter a new era we'll never get anywhere. If that's what everyone wants to do, that's fine too, but I was hoping to get to the real meat and potatoes stuff - the Crusades, the spread of Islam (was it a violent or peaceful revolution?), the stunting of growth in the Arab world under the Ottomans, the real reasons behind WWI, the founding of Israel. Terrorism in north Africa and the nationalizing of the oil in the Middle East are also connected.

I thought it should be approached chronologically, mainly because I worried if it could be done civilly or not - but I'm not worried about that now. Maybe this should be more of a free for all - ? That way we can start getting GreatMuslim and Sinewy's takes on the history of Islam, the spead of Christianity is no less interesting and DAT or others might have some input...

One thing that ought to be looked into first though, is why the Jewish nation died? The stronghold of the Jewish faith was not in the northern 10 tribes, but in Judah (the southern 2 tribes and Jeruselem). The Babylonians came and conquered these people, but only carried a small portion (the leaders supposedly) off into slavery in Babylon (I know some will say this too is Myth - doesn't matter, it is the account that Jews believe, that makes it relevant). Was this the deathknell of ancient Israel?
After the Babylonians the Greeks, then the Romans occupied the same real estate. Was it the Romans that finally but an end to the first Israel experiment?

Things I think about... just trying to keep things interesting.

PS I may be gone for 2 weeks - have to travel for work, don't know if the hotel will have ADSL or not. Cheers to all 


You will notice that it was the God of Israel who told jeremiah (one of God prophets) to go and tell the children of Israel that it would be God that would bring desolation to Israel because of their evil doings and evil ways. And that it would be God that brings in Nebuchadrezzar to rule over the children of Israel for 70 yrs.

Jeremiah, reproving the Jews' disobedience to the prophets

1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; 2 The which Jeremiah the prophet spake unto all the people of Judah, and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, 3 From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye have not hearkened. 4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear. 5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever: 6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. 7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

foretells the seventy years' captivity

8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words, 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Jer 25:1-14 (KJV)

Posted by: librarian Nov 11 2006, 08:20 PM

Posted by: free_me Aug 4 2006, 03:45 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 3 2006 @ 07:51 PM)
(I know some will say this too is Myth - doesn't matter, it is the account that Jews believe, that makes it relevant). 


Has even come up with a list of relevant, generally accepted sources from which to draw upon for purposes of this discussion? What's myth? What's fact? How does one decide?

QUOTE
  Was this the deathknell of ancient Israel?


But again... if we don't know what the truth of the story is, how can such be pondered or discussed?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:36 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 4 2006, 04:09 AM

"...empty thyself of all learning, that thou mayest partake of My knowledge..."


Baha'i Writings

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:37 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 4 2006, 04:39 AM


QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 4 2006 @ 04:09 AM)
"...empty thyself of all learning, that thou mayest partake of My knowledge..."

Baha'i Writings 


true that ... i cant remember who said it ... some ancient indian dude i think ...

"how can i fill your cup with knowledge when it is already full?"

ok now ... how bout an experiment .... tell a small story to someone about a time you went fishing and caught big ass bass ... or something like that. have then tell it to someone else .. then they tell it and so on til it goes thru like 20 people. and just see how accurate the story is once it gets to the end of the line.

i know you people have doing this sorta thing before .. like password. now .. imagine telling that story once a week to comeone over the course of about 50 years ... then see how accurate it is to the first story.

really ... the important thing about any book such as the bible or the Qu'ran ... if should be all about what was put into it. its supposed to be about what you get outta it. they both have good lesson that make a lot of sense and can be applied in life without going all religious.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:37 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 4 2006, 07:35 AM

Okay, who's next to discuss about? We've just finished Prophet Solomon, who should we discuss about now? I'm thinking Prophet Elijah.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:37 AM

Posted by: Chris Sarns Aug 4 2006, 10:29 AM

OK I've been gone for a while and I've been trying to catch up. A lot to read.

I am fascinated with the history from the three religons viewpoints.

Thank you GM10 for your great posts. Keep 'em commin'

Sanders: Keep 'em on track thumbsup.gif

I think the question here is " how the f*ck did we get into this mess" (from a historical point of view)

There is no God but God

We may give him/her diffrent names and diffrent atributes but one God is still one God

I think 'The great spirit' is better than God or Alah. But that's just my opinion.

Let's try to keep it to history as seen from diffrent viewpoints....

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:37 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 4 2006, 04:31 PM


QUOTE (free_me @ Aug 4 2006 @ 12:45 PM)
What's myth? What's fact? How does one decide? ... if we don't know what the truth of the story is, how can such be pondered or discussed?

That's the beauty of it. This is stuff people take on faith. All we have to do is try to understand what constitutes the basis of that faith. Once we get into the crusades there's more archeological evidence around (like castles all over the mid-east), but we don't have to prove anything, proving or debunking is not the goal. Understanding our world is the goal, is it not? Or in the words of ChrisSarns,

QUOTE
Let's try to keep it to history as seen from diffrent viewpoints...


QUOTE (GreatMuslim)
who should we discuss about now? I'm thinking Prophet Elijah.


A Muslim proposing talking about Elijah ... you rock dude. Be my guest, I know nothing about him.

Here's a shocker for you all, I read today that there are very few Jews on the planet that actually derive from the middle east. Nearly all are descendents of Kazar or Spain - only a few % that can trace their roots to the Israelites. Sort of controversial stuff, but I'm not gonna hold anything back, and Islam and Christianity are probably gonna get their share of blows too before this thread dies.

I hearby declare that the waning of ancient Israel (diaspora, Greek and Roman occupation), the Gospel (birth of Christianity), and the birth of Islam are all open topics. Oh, and Elijah too.

I checked into my hotel and it turns out I do have ADSL. I'll be pretty busy but I'll be able to participate.

Thanks everyone for hanging in there.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:37 AM

Posted by: : pr0mythius Aug 4 2006, 06:44 PM

the story of elijah is an interesting one. he was said to live during the reign of jezzebell... an evil woman that worshiped Baal. i forget her husband's name .... but he was portrayed as a lazy one .. that was like "do whatever jezzebell." she had many priests that performed rituals. and i believe the story goes that there was a kind of competition between the queen and elijah to prove which god was real .. the one of elijah .. or of jezzebell .. it was said that jezzebell's priests went nutz trying to get Baal to show up ... cutting themselves .. making sacrifices. but nothing happened .... the elijah made a small alter ... and surrounded it with a small trench filled with water. he began to pray and a fireball fell from the sky and engulfed his alter. thus proving his god was real.

at least thats how i remember the story. its been a while.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:37 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 4 2006, 10:16 PM

The story of Prophet Elijah in Islam:

Elijah (Arabic:Ilyas) is a prophet of Islam mentioned in the Qur'an.

Elijah was descended from Aaron, and was a prophet sent to the Israelites.

After the death of Solomon, his kingdom fell apart. This allowed the influence of Satan to become widespread among the people of Israel. The religious people were mocked. The ruler of Samaria killed a large number of learned people. When the evil reached a boiling point, God sent Elijah to reform mankind during the reign of King Ahab of Israel. He tried his best to save the people from polytheism. He forbade them to worship the Tyrian Baal. He advised the people to ward off evil and worship the One God.

However his efforts bore no fruit. He suddenly appeared before the king and foretold that a severe drought and famine would overtake the kingdom. Elijah added that the Tyrian Baal would be powerless to avert it. The people paid no heed to his warnings and did not mend their ways. The prophecy of Elijah turned out to be true and whole of the kingdom experienced famine.

The people began to starve. After three years Elijah prayed to God to show mercy to the famine stricken people. They acknowledged the authority of God and felt regret. Soon after the rain ended the drought, God lifted His curses. After this Elijah was directed by God to call upon Elisha to be his successor. Elijah did this and disappeared mysteriously.

I guess that means Elisha is next.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:38 AM

Posted by: : GreatMuslim10 Aug 4 2006, 10:36 PM

Wait a minute, I realized we skipped Prophets Job and Jethro:

Here is the story of Prophet Job:

"That was Our proof which We gave Abraham against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All Knowing. And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Job, each of them We guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good doers. (6:83-84)

God the Almighty praised His worshipper Job in His Glorious Quran:
Truly! We found him patient. How excellent a slave! Verily, he was ever oft returning in repentance to Us! (38:44)

Job (pbuh) was repentant, remembering God with thankfulness, patience, and steadfastness. This was the cause of his rescue and the secret of God's praising him.

A group of angels were discussing God's other human creatures, how those who were humble earned God's pleasure, while those who were arrogant incurred His displeasure. One of the angels remarked: "The best creature on earth today is Job, a man of noble character who displays great patience and always remembers his Generous Lord. He is an excellent model for the worshippers of God. In return, his Lord has blessed him with a long life and plenty of servants, as well as the needy and the poor share in his good fortune; he feeds and clothes the poor and buys slaves to set them free. He makes those who receive his charity feel as if they are favoring him so kind and gentle is he."

Satan overhearing all of this, became annoyed. He planned to tempt Job to corruption and disbelief, so he hastened to him. He tried to distract Job from his prayers by whispering him about the good things in life but Job was a true believer and would not let evil thoughts tempt him. This disturbed Satan even more; thus he began to hate Job even more.

Satan complained to God about Job. He said that although he was continuously glorifying God he was not doing so out of his sincerity but to satisfy God so that his wealth should not be taken away. It was all a show, all out of greed. "If You remove his wealth then You will find that his tongue will no longer mention Your name and his praying will stop."

God told Satan that Job was one of His most sincere devotees. He did not worship Him because of the favors; his worship stemmed from his heart and had nothing to do with material things. But to prove to Satan the depth of Job's sincerity and patience, God allowed him to do whatever he and his helpers wished with Job's wealth.

Satan was very happy. He gathered his helpers and set about destroying Job's cattle, servants and farms until he was left with no possessions. Rubbing his hands in glee, Satan appeared before Job in the guise of a wise old man and said to him: "All your wealth is lost, some people say that it is because you gave too much charity and that you are wasting your time with your continuous prayers to God. Others say that God has brought this upon you in order to please your enemies. If God had the capacity to prevent harm, then He would have protected your wealth."

True to his belief, Job replied: "What God has taken away from me belongs to Him. I was only its trustee for awhile. He gives to whom He wills and withholds from whom He wills." With these words, Job again prostrated to his Lord.

When Satan saw this, he felt frustrated, so he again addressed God: "I have stripped Job of all his possessions, but he still remains grateful to You. However he is only hiding his disappointment, for he places great store by his many children. The real test of a parent is through his children. You will see how Job will reject You."

God granted Satan authority but warned him that it would not reduce Job' faith in His Lord nor his patience.

Satan again gathered his helpers and set about his evil deeds. He shook the fountain of the house in which Job's children were living and sent the building crashing, killing all of them. Then he went to Job disguised as a man who had come to sympathize with him. In a comforting tone he said to Job: "The circumstances under which your children died were sad. Surely, your Lord is not rewarding you properly for all your prayers." Having said this, Satan waited anxiously hoping Job was now ready to reject God.

But again Job disappointed him by replying: "God sometimes gives and sometimes takes. He is sometimes pleased and sometimes displeased with our deeds. Whether a thing is beneficial or harmful to me, I will remain firm in my belief and remain thankful to my Creator." Then Job prostrated to his Lord. At this Satan was extremely vexed.

Satan called on God. "O my Lord, Job's wealth is gone, his children are dead, and he is still healthy in body, and as long as he enjoys good health he will continue to worship You in the hope of regaining his wealth and producing more children. Grant me authority over his body so that I may weaken it. He will surely neglect worshipping You an will thus become disobedient."

God wanted to teach Satan a lesson that Job was a devoted servant of his Lord so He granted Satan his 3rd request but placed a condition: "I give you authority over his body but not over his soul, intellect or heart, for in these places reside the knowledge of Me and My religion."

Armed with this new authority, Satan began to take revenge on Job's body and filled it with disease until it was reduced to mere skin and bone and he suffered severe pain. But through all the suffering Job remained strong in his faith, patiently bearing all the hardships without complaining. God's righteous servant did not despair or turn to others for help but remained hopeful of God's mercy. Even close relatives and friends deserted him. Only his kind, loving wife stayed with him. In his hour of need, she showered her kindness on him and cared for him. She remained his sole companion and comforter through the many years of suffering.

Ibn Asaker narrated: "Job was a man having much wealth of all kinds; beats, slaves, sheep, vast lands of Haran and many children. All those favors were taken from him and he was physically afflicted as well. Never a single organ was sound except his heart and tongue, with both of which he glorified God, the Almighty all the time day and night. His disease lasted for a long time until his visitors felt disgusted with him. His friends kept away from him and people abstained from visiting him. No one felt sympathy for him except his wife. She took good care of him, knowing his former charity and pity for her."

Therefore Satan became desperate. He consulted his helpers, but they could not advise him. They asked : "How is it that your cleverness cannot work against Job, yet you succeeded in misleading Adam the father of man, out of Paradise?"

Satan went to Job's wife in the form of a man. "Where is your husband?" he asked her.

She pointed to an almost lifeless form crumbled on the bed and said: "There he is, suspended between life and death."

Satan reminded her of the days, when Job had good health, wealth and children. Suddenly, the painful memory of years of hardship overcame her, and she burst into tears. She said to Job: "How long are you going to bear this torture from our Lord? Are we to remain without wealth, children or friends forever? Why don't you call upon God to remove this suffering?"

Job sighed, and in a soft voice replied : "Satan must have whispered to you and made you dissatisfied. Tell me how long did I enjoy good health and riches?"

She replied: "80 years."

Then Job replied: "How long am I suffering like this?"

She said: "7 years."

Job then told her: "In that case I am ashamed to call on my Lord to remove the hardship, for I have not suffered longer than the years of good health and plenty. It seems your faith has weakened and you are dissatisfied with the fate of God. If I ever regain health, I swear I will punish you with a hundred strokes! From this day onward, I forbid myself to eat or drink anything by your hand. Leave me alone and let my Lord do with me as He pleases."

Crying bitterly and with a heavy heart, she had no choice but to leave him and seek shelter elsewhere. In this helpless sate, Job turned to God, not to complain but to seek His mercy: "Verily! distress has seized me and You are the Most Merciful of all those who show mercy." So We answered his call, and we removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his family to him (that he had lost), and the like thereof along with them as a mercy from Ourselves and a Reminder for all who worship Us." (21:83-84)

Almighty God also instructed: "Remember Our slave Job, when he invoked His Lord saying: "Verily! Satan has touched me with distress (by losing my health) and torment (by losing my wealth)!" God said to him: "Strike the ground with your foot: This is a spring of water to wash in and cool and a refreshing drink." And We gave him back his family, and along with them the like thereof as a Mercy from Us, and a reminder for those who understand. (38:41-43)

Job obeyed and almost immediately his good health was restored. Meanwhile, his faithful wife could not longer bear to be parted from her husband and returned to him to beg his forgiveness, desiring to serve him. On entering her house, she was amazed at the sudden change: Job was again healthy! She embraced him and thanked God for His mercy.

Job was not worried, for he had taken an oath to punish her with a hundred strokes if he had regained health but he had no desire to hurt her. He knew if he did not fulfill the oath, he would be guilty of breaking a promise to God. Therefore in His wisdom and mercy, God came to the assistance of His faithful servant and advised him: "take in your hand a bundle of thin grass and strike therewith your wife, and break not your oath." Truly! We found him patient. How excellent a slave! Verily, he was ever oft returning in repentance to Us!" (38:44)

Abu Hurairah (may God be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "While Job was naked, taking a bath, a swarm of gold locusts fell on him, and he started collecting them in his garment. His Lord called him: "O Job! Have I not made you too rich to need what you see?" He said: "Yes, My Lord! But I cannot shun Your Blessings." (Al Bukhari)

And now Prophet Jethro:

Jethro (Arabic: Shoaib) was a direct descendant of Abraham as well as Moses' father-in-law.

Muslims believe that Jethro was appointed by God to be a prophet to the people who lived east of Mount Sinai, the people of Midyan and Ayka. The people of these lands were said to be especially notorious for cheating others through dishonest weights and measures. Jethro warned them against such actions but they did not listen. Subsequently, both lands were destroyed by the wrath of God.

Jethro was said to have lived to pleasure those around him.

His desire was to discover the ishabid of the Matwa Mountains which were said to give powerful visions and keep people in a constant state of pleasure.

Here is a more detailed story:

The people of Madyan were Arabs who lived in the country of Ma'an, part of which today is greater Syria. They were a greedy people who did not believe that God existed and who led wicked lives. They gave short measure, praised their goods beyond their worth, and hid their defects. They lied to their customers, thereby cheating them.

God sent His Prophet Jethro (pbuh) armed with many miracles. Jethro preached to them, begging them to be mindful of God's favors and warning them of the consequences of their evil ways, but they only mocked him. Jethro remained calm as he reminded them of his kinship to them and that what he was doing was not for his personal gain.

They seized the belongings of Jethro and his followers, then drove them out of the city. The Messenger turned to his Lord for help, and his plea was answered. God sent down on them scorching heat and they suffered terribly. On seeing a cloud gathering in the sky, they thought it would bring cool, refreshing rain, and rushed outside in the hope of enjoying the rainfall. Instead the cloud burst, hurling thunderbolts and fire. They heard a thunderous sound from above which caused the earth under their feet to tremble. The evil doers perished in this state of horror.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:38 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 4 2006, 11:42 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 4 2006 @ 10:16 PM)
The story of Prophet Elijah in Islam...


I have been to the Cave of Elijah on Mt Carmel in the Holy Land.

Mt Carmel is also where Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount.


It's also the Baha'i administrative center...



This is the Center of the Study of Texts and Seats of the universal house of Justice.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:38 AM

Posted by: Faatima Aug 4 2006, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (Chris Sarns @ Aug 4 2006 @ 10:29 AM)
OK I've been gone for a while and I've been trying to catch up. A lot to read.

I am fascinated with the history from the three religons viewpoints.

Thank you GM10 for your great posts. Keep 'em commin'

Sanders: Keep 'em on track   thumbsup.gif

I think the question here is " how the f*ck did we get into this mess" (from a historical point of view)

There is no God but God

We may give him/her diffrent names and diffrent atributes but one God is still one God

I think 'The great spirit' is better than God or Alah. But that's just my opinion.

Let's try to keep it to history as seen from diffrent viewpoints....  



Chris,
When talking about God you have to be careful. Alot of people say that the God of Christianity and Judiasm and Islam are the same God. But the God referred to in these seperate religion has different characteristics(if thats the right word) and associations. So its not really the same God...if you get what I'm saying?

I would also like to know how we got into such a crappy situation with eachother?

Oh and by the way I'm Muslim....
...if the name didn't already give it away smile.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:38 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 5 2006, 12:09 AM

The God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is the same, but we each have different concepts about Him. The different concepts don't actually change Him into a different god for each, but yes, we do have different characteristics of Him.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:38 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 5 2006, 12:25 AM

Salam
GreatMuslim10,
But how can God be the same if to each religion the characteristics of God differ?
If in Islam God says he has no son or family or partners then in Christianity God is viewed to some Christians as having as son(Isa) and a holy spirit. To me it just doen't add up.. nonono.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:39 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 5 2006, 12:30 AM

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 4 2006 @ 08:25 PM)
Salam
GreatMuslim10,
But how can God be the same if to each religion the characteristics of God differ?
If in Islam God says he has no son or family or partners then in Christianity God is viewed to some Christians as having as son(Isa) and a holy spirit. To me it just doen't add up..  


No, you don't understand. God in Judaism and God in Islam is the same in terms of not having any family members or partners. But in Christianity, the "father", if you will, is the God that we all believe in. We don't believe God is a father, but they believe He is. So the father God that Christians worship is the same as the One God that Jews and Muslims worship, except that we don't believe He has a son or is part of a trinity.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:39 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 5 2006, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 5 2006 @ 12:30 AM)
QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 4 2006 @ 08:25 PM)
Salam
GreatMuslim10,
But how can God be the same if to each religion the characteristics of God differ?
If in Islam God says he has no son or family or partners then in Christianity God is viewed to some Christians as having as son(Isa) and a holy spirit. To me it just doen't add up..  

No, you don't understand. God in Judaism and God in Islam is the same in terms of not having any family members or partners. But in Christianity, the "father", if you will, is the God that we all believe in. We don't believe God is a father, but they believe He is. So the father God that Christians worship is the same as the One God that Jews and Muslims worship, except that we don't believe He has a son or is part of a trinity.


But then that makes it weird. Because the fact is in a Muslims mind God has no son. But in a Christians mind the fact is that he does.

And having a son is not a characteristic.

Wouldn't it be kind of going against God for me to except that he has a son when he clearly says he does not.

Though there may be similarities in the God of Islam, Christ. and Judiasm it doesn't mean there the same. That we don't believe he has a son or is apart of a trinity matters alot. I couldn't let a Christian lead me in prayer(not salat just any random prayer) and ask for forgiveness or mercy from God because what God are they referring to: the one with a son or the one without?

And some Christains believe Jesus is their Lord and savior. Surely Muslims and Jews do not.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:39 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 5 2006, 01:26 AM

I understand what you are saying, but God having a son is just a different concept. It doesn't change Him into a different god. It's still the same God, just with a son for Christians. Yeah, it does seem weird. However, you have to remember that we all worship the God of Abraham. We all have intentions to worship the God of Abraham, but the Christians do it wrong (that's what we believe) in believing that He also has a son. As for believing Jesus is their lord, the Christians that say that believe that Jesus was both son of God and God himself. It's really complicated to explain and you shouldn't worry too much about it, especially since you don't believe in it.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:39 AM

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 02:56 AM

QUOTE (ICE420 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 01:55 PM)
I´m Atheist, but am interested to see peoples reactions and beliefs, especially not being biased to any side makes for a very interesting subject matter for debate and to see how people are going to deal with certain arguments

I think that Sanders Idea for this thread is a good one and one that will fuel a lot of attention.

popcorn.gif



A reasonable reponse!

Now I am a Christian. Now Judasim is easy to point out as being in error. I never know how they missed their own prophesy other than Paul saying they will. The first one explains when Jeruselam will be rebuilt and when the Messiah will be cut off. days are often used as years in prophesy. Eziekiel did the same before Jerusalem fell. The 20th year of Artaxerxes and 69 weeks of years turns out to be around 30-40 AD. So if is was not Christ then is was another guy around 30-40 AD. Also in their own Talmud they record some odd things with the Temple sacrifice starting 30 AD.

Daniel 9

24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined


Nehe 2

1: And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
2: Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
3: And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?
4: Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven.
5: And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.
6: And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.


"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).' Talmud Bavli, Yoma

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:39 AM

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 03:17 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:10 AM)
You know, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are so closely alike. We worship the same One God, we believe in many of the same prophets and messengers of God, we believe in angels, the afterlife, and etc. All three of those religions are Abrahamic religions. We are all monotheists. To see similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an

We all agree that the Torah and Psalms came from God to Moses and David, Christians and Muslims both believe that the Gospel came from God to Jesus, and only Muslims believe that the Qur'an came from God to Muhammad. If you read about the similarities, you'll realize that Islam has come to be misunderstood by many and that Christianity and Judaism are very close in beliefs. 


Unfortunately the details are everything. Christianity is all about being justified by Christ and that no human deed is worthy to be accepted by God without understanding you are lost without it.

Isaiah 64
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.

Matt 5

9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

So anything not done in love to an arab or muslim is not from Christ and I am very sorry for how they have been selected for persecution.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:39 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 03:32 AM

QUOTE (Hound @ Aug 2 2006 @ 02:19 PM)
From this we can safely conclude that these biblical stories are myths with no basis in historical reality. 


Go to creationist sites. They will show you their "empirical" evidence.

Don't make a generalization and deduce logic that way. Examine all perspectives.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:40 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 03:51 AM

arommell88:

QUOTE
Unfortunately the details are everything. Christianity is all about being justified by Christ and that no human deed is worthy to be accepted by God without understanding you are lost without it.

Isaiah 64
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.


Are you discussing the concept of original sin, or are you trying to state that believing in Christ will validate the deeds that you do? And then how does it differ from Islam?

I will give a response.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:40 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 04:07 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 3 2006 @ 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 3 2006 @ 05:04 PM)

Back to the story of Joseph, I believe the Bible runs against the historical evidence. 


What do you mean? How?


The Bible mentions the ruler of Egypt during Joseph's time and Moses's time as Pharaoh (Fir`awn in `Arabic). The Qur'an designates Pharaoh only for the ruler of Egypt during Moses's time. During Joseph's time, the ruler was referred to as King (Malik in `Arabic).

According to Egyptology and heiroglyphics the term Pharaoh was first used in the 18th dynasty of the New Kingdom Period. The term Pharaoh wasn't used during Joseph's time according to these records.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:40 AM

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 04:07 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 5 2006 @ 01:26 AM)
I understand what you are saying, but God having a son is just a different concept. It doesn't change Him into a different god. It's still the same God, just with a son for Christians. Yeah, it does seem weird. However, you have to remember that we all worship the God of Abraham. We all have intentions to worship the God of Abraham, but the Christians do it wrong (that's what we believe) in believing that He also has a son. As for believing Jesus is their lord, the Christians that say that believe that Jesus was both son of God and God himself. It's really complicated to explain and you shouldn't worry too much about it, especially since you don't believe in it. 


Many people think the Trinity is confusing. I am not even sure about the Trinity myself because it may not be by number. It is easy to understand that God can have a Son if you understand the fallacy of "one" so often applied.
One God is one what? One man is one what? A man has two eyes. I have two hands. If one hand is cut off am I am man still? Do I write this post or did a computer? I did, but why? It was my will , the computer does my will. Jesus was the Son of God because he could only do God's will. One inherently has many except that which makes the one as we focus on it. The one car has doors, seats, wheels etc but the car is one. The Holy Spirit, The Son, The Father all have the will that is one. Every one thing has many, the important thing is what that one is and it is "will" for lack of anything else.
When God said that I AM that I AM that is all we can ever know about God because with only one there is no comparison. What I do know is that I cannot think of anyone thing without thinking of its many things. However we humans made in the image of God consider the "will". That is why we have concepts such as accident and mistake. In a car accident , I may be the driver, it may be my car but was I evil? No, because the will is our primacy and it is not my will to have an accident. I have responsibility because it was my will to drive.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:40 AM

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 04:14 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 5 2006 @ 03:51 AM)
arommell88:
QUOTE
Unfortunately the details are everything. Christianity is all about being justified by Christ and that no human deed is worthy to be accepted by God without understanding you are lost without it.

Isaiah 64
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.


Are you discussing the concept of original sin, or are you trying to state that believing in Christ will validate the deeds that you do? And then how does it differ from Islam?

I will give a response.


Believing in Christ will not give you licence. To willfully sin is to not to love Christ. Christ said if you love me you will follow me.
As to original sin man is sinful by nature and that is why we must be set free. As a slave to sin we could never buy our way out so it was Christ that freed us.

John 14

14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Being "good" and going to heaven and being "bad and going to hell is really not a Christian concept though in popular culture it is.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:40 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 04:19 AM

QUOTE (arommel88 @ Aug 5 2006 @ 04:14 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 5 2006 @ 03:51 AM)
arommell88:
 
QUOTE
Unfortunately the details are everything. Christianity is all about being justified by Christ and that no human deed is worthy to be accepted by God without understanding you are lost without it.

Isaiah 64
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.



Are you discussing the concept of original sin, or are you trying to state that believing in Christ will validate the deeds that you do? And then how does it differ from Islam?

I will give a response.


Believing in Christ will not give you licence. To willfully sin is to not to love Christ. Christ said if you love me you will follow me.
As to original sin man is sinful by nature and that is why we must be set free. As a slave to sin we could never buy our way out so it was Christ that freed us.

John 14

14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Being "good" and going to heaven and being "bad and going to hell is really not a Christian concept though in popular culture it is.


Thanks I know the concept of "original sin". It was reference to those quotes in your previous post.

Now you mention this:

QUOTE
Believing in Christ will not give you licence. To willfully sin is to not to love Christ. Christ said if you love me you will follow me.


Then this:

QUOTE
Being "good" and going to heaven and being "bad and going to hell is really not a Christian concept though in popular culture it is. 


Those are apparent contradictions, because the first shows the salvation by faith is not enough, but the the latter quote assumes that salvation can be achieved by faith alone, regardless of deeds because the "modern thought" of what you explained is erroneous.

Christianity and Islam both agree that salvation can be achieved by faith. It is not entirely based on deeds.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:40 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 04:36 AM

QUOTE (arommel88 @ Aug 5 2006 @ 04:14 AM)
As to original sin man is sinful by nature and that is why we must be set free. As a slave to sin we could never buy our way out so it was Christ that freed us.



I respect and sincerely admire Christianity and other faiths. So please don't feel offended, as this is a "religion thread."


Yes. Indeed that is the general view. Some questions are what about infants that die at birth? Evil? What about the people before Jesus Christ's time?

Now this is the view of Islam. They believe in the concept of Fitrah. Fitrah is the natural, pure state of people. Muhammad mentioned that this primordial nature of humans is prevalent in all, but it is the extraneous factors that will eventually raise him or her to other faiths and ideologies. The Qur'an mentions, "Wa Khalaqal Insaana Da`iifa". This translates into "And We (God) created humankind in a "weak" state. Weak state meaning that man is falliable and sinful, but he does not have this original sin in him due to him being born in a state of fitrah.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:41 AM

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 04:53 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 5 2006 @ 04:19 AM)
QUOTE (arommel88 @ Aug 5 2006 @ 04:14 AM)

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 5 2006 @ 03:51 AM)
arommell88:

QUOTE
Unfortunately the details are everything. Christianity is all about being justified by Christ and that no human deed is worthy to be accepted by God without understanding you are lost without it.

Isaiah 64
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.


Are you discussing the concept of original sin, or are you trying to state that believing in Christ will validate the deeds that you do? And then how does it differ from Islam?

I will give a response.

Believing in Christ will not give you licence. To willfully sin is to not to love Christ. Christ said if you love me you will follow me.
As to original sin man is sinful by nature and that is why we must be set free. As a slave to sin we could never buy our way out so it was Christ that freed us.

John 14

14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Being "good" and going to heaven and being "bad and going to hell is really not a Christian concept though in popular culture it is.



Thanks I know the concept of "original sin". It was reference to those quotes in your previous post.

Now you mention this:

QUOTE
Believing in Christ will not give you licence. To willfully sin is to not to love Christ. Christ said if you love me you will follow me.


Then this:

QUOTE
Being "good" and going to heaven and being "bad and going to hell is really not a Christian concept though in popular culture it is. 


Those are apparent contradictions, because the first shows the salvation by faith is not enough, but the the latter quote assumes that salvation can be achieved by faith alone, regardless of deeds because the "modern thought" of what you explained is erroneous.

Christianity and Islam both agree that salvation can be achieved by faith. It is not entirely based on deeds.


I think the key was that the sacrifice of Christ makes this possible. There was the ignorance of the law and faith for the gentiles and the process of Atonement and faith for the Jews who had the law before Christ came.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:41 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 6 2006, 04:33 AM

So what's next?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:41 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 6 2006, 08:44 PM

:ph43r: Well Sanders said it was kind of a free for all... sooo any ideas and things on peoples minds=then put fingers to keyboard!

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:41 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 6 2006, 10:18 PM

Within the context of a free for all, I would pose the following query:

If the Messiah (Jews), or the Spirit of Truth (the Return of Christ), or the Mihdi (Shi'iah Islam) or the Fifth Imam (Sunni),

were to appear before humankind...

would any of those people of those religions recognize Him?

Consider the Jews. The Jews were ardently praying for the Merciful One to send the promised Messiah. However, when His Holiness Jesus announced His mission, they had Him put to death. The very Individual they were beseeching the One True God to send to them!

They didn't recognize Jesus.

My God! They didn't recognize the very One that they had been beseeching God to send to them.

Doesn't this strike anyone as being odd??

What makes us think that we will do any better than the devout Jews? In fact, the most devout Jews (as I understand it) were the Pharisees. Jesus actually singles these people out for condemnation. Yet, they were the most devout and, no doubt, esteemed themselves as those most qualified to recongnize the Messiah when He should arrive!!

But they failed to recognize Jesus. He appeared before them, walked amongst them, preached to them but they couldn't see Him!! All they could see was but a man like themselves.

I wonder if my brothers and sisters in the Truth movement have any comments on this?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:41 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 6 2006, 11:21 PM

I would just like to say that Al-Mahdi is a whole different being from Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH). If you are wondering if we are going to recognize him, I advise you to visit this web site: http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:41 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 7 2006, 12:15 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 6 2006 @ 11:21 PM)
I would just like to say that Al-Mahdi is a whole different being from Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH). If you are wondering if we are going to recognize him, I advise you to visit this web site: www.jesuswillreturn.com 


GreatMuslim10, Who are you awaiting in your religion?

Just so I can understand the Promised One from your perspective.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:42 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 7 2006, 01:32 AM

That site that you posted is very beautiful. It has been well illustrated and is abviously a work of love.

My point about not recognizing the One sent by God is based mainly on the experience of the Jews:

"They had not perceived the inner significances of the Holy Bible. They voiced their objections, saying, "We are expecting Christ, but His coming is conditioned upon certain fulfillments and prophetic announcements.

Among the signs of His appearance is one that He shall come from an unknown place, whereas now this claimant of Messiahship has come from Nazareth. We know his home, and we are acquainted with his mother.

"Second, one of the signs or Messianic conditions is that His scepter would be an iron rod, and this Christ has not even a wooden staff.

"Third, He was to be seated upon the throne of David, whereas this Messianic king is in the utmost state of poverty and has not even a mat.

"Fourth, He was to conquer the East and the West. This person has not even conquered a village. How can he be the Messiah?

"Fifth, He was to promulgate the laws of the Bible. This one has not only failed to promulgate the laws of the Bible, but he has broken the law of the sabbath.

"Sixth, the Messiah was to gather together all the Jews who were scattered in Palestine and restore them to honor and prestige, but this one has degraded the Jews instead of uplifting them.

"Seventh, during His sovereignty even the animals were to enjoy blessings and comfort, for according to the prophetic texts, He should establish peace to such a universal extent that the eagle and quail would live together, the lion and deer would feed in the same meadow, the wolf and lamb would lie down in the same pasture. In the human kingdom warfare was to cease entirely; spears would be turned into pruning hooks and swords into plowshares. Now we see in the day of this would-be Messiah such injustice prevails that even he himself is sacrificed. How could he be the promised Christ?"

And so they spoke infamous words regarding Him."

Thus, the devout Jews failed to recognize Christ and to this day, still await His appearance.

Would the people of today do any better?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:42 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 02:10 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 6 2006 @ 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 6 2006 @ 11:21 PM)
I would just like to say that Al-Mahdi is a whole different being from Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH).  If you are wondering if we are going to recognize him, I advise you to visit this web site: www.jesuswillreturn.com 


GreatMuslim10, Who are you awaiting in your religion?

Just so I can understand the Promised One from your perspective.


Muslims are awaiting for both Al-Mahdi and Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh). Al-Mahdi will come first and will unite Muslims. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will come second and will unite Muslims and Christians together and will kill the Anti-Christ.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:42 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 7 2006, 05:37 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 7 2006 @ 02:10 AM)
Muslims are awaiting for both Al-Mahdi and Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh).  Al-Mahdi will come first and will unite Muslims.  Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will come second and will unite Muslims and Christians together and will kill the Anti-Christ.


GreatMuslim10, thank you for clarifying that point for me.

Did you see my post just above yours refering to the signs that the Jews were looking for in the Messiah?

They used the very signs that would accompany the Messiah to deny Him when he appeared.

Do you think that's possible to happen again in our time? Would YOU recognize Him if you saw Him?

For that matter, would anyone else like to comment on that point?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:42 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 7 2006, 07:49 PM

The exchange between GM10 and Daniels was very illuminating. Thanks for posting. I am currently working 14 hour days - this isn't the kind of thread you can just read a couple of recent posts and fluff off some half baked comment - I can't be here much for the next week. And if the thread dies a natural death it's no big deal. But I have a feeling that this thread adds balance to the LC forum - I want it to continue.

I want to know if, when, and why the jews in ancient Israel left/died out. I don't know. I used to believe (because many people propogate this myth) that they were all carted off to Babylon - but that seems not to be the case. And the Babylonian exile (for the small percentage of Israelites population-wise that were enslaved there) wasn't that long, historically speaking. After 50 or 100 years (?) they and their anscestors were free to return to Israel but very few did. What I have been able to discern is that the final end to ancient Israel came at the hands of the Romans. But I know nothing about it and am too busy to research it right now - if someone can clear this up we are into A.D. - where it gets fairly interesting fairly quick...

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:42 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 7 2006 @ 03:49 PM)
The exchange between GM10 and Daniels was very illuminating. Thanks for posting. I am currently working 14 hour days - this isn't the kind of thread you can just read a couple of recent posts and fluff off some half baked comment - I can't be here much for the next week. And if the thread dies a natural death it's no big deal. But I have a feeling that this thread adds balance to the LC forum - I want it to continue.

I want to know if, when, and why the jews in ancient Israel left/died out. I don't know. I used to believe (because many people propogate this myth) that they were all carted off to Babylon - but that seems not to be the case. And the Babylonian exile (for the small percentage of Israelites population-wise that were enslaved there) wasn't that long, historically speaking. After 50 or 100 years (?) they and their anscestors were free to return to Israel but very few did. What I have been able to discern is that the final end to ancient Israel came at the hands of the Romans. But I know nothing about it and am too busy to research it right now - if someone can clear this up we are into A.D. - where it gets fairly interesting fairly quick... 


I think the reason is because God's curse was upon them after they killed so many of His prophets and messengers. The last one God sent for them was Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and even then they wanted to crucify him, but God lifted him to Heaven before they could and instead they crucified Judas, (or someone else who deceived God but most likely Judas) whom God made look like Jesus. God said in the Qur'an that His curse was upon the Jews for what they did and history sort of proves that they been having a lot of bad things happening to them and they were dying out.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:42 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 7 2006 @ 01:37 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 7 2006 @ 02:10 AM)
Muslims are awaiting for both Al-Mahdi and Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh).  Al-Mahdi will come first and will unite Muslims.  Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will come second and will unite Muslims and Christians together and will kill the Anti-Christ.


GreatMuslim10, thank you for clarifying that point for me.

Did you see my post just above yours refering to the signs that the Jews were looking for in the Messiah?

They used the very signs that would accompany the Messiah to deny Him when he appeared.

Do you think that's possible to happen again in our time? Would YOU recognize Him if you saw Him?

For that matter, would anyone else like to comment on that point?


Yeah I read it. I do believe I will recognize the Messiah Jesus Christ (pbuh). I don't think anyone will deny him except for the non Abrahamic religions. That is atheists, pagans, and etc. Some of them too will believe in him, but none of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims will deny him.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:43 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 7 2006, 11:19 PM

Their are descriptions given of the anti- Christ one being that he will have a single eye that he is able to see out of. There are others but I can't remember at the moment, but I'll do some research. In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him.
We'll just have to wait and see how things play themselves out...

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:43 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 11:46 PM

The Messiah that Jews believe that didn't come yet and is not Jesus is actually the Anti-Christ. This "Messiah" is supposedly going to establish the official Jewish state. Jews don't realize that he is going to be the Anti-Christ. They don't believe in an Anti-Christ like Christians and Muslims do. A hadith states that he will be followed by 70,000 Jews. Christians and Muslims will suffer and Al-Mahdi won't be able to kill him nor stop him, but Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will descend from Heaven and kill him and wipe off all Zionists from the Earth and establish peace. The problem is that Christians want to be the Jews' friends and not the Musims. Christians are taught to be Zionists by the Bible. Jews don't even like Christians and can't wait for their Messiah (Anti-Christ) to kill them all. Read this:

"Islaam, Christianity, and Judaism all believe in the coming of the leader of the great and final battle whom they all call the Messiah.

The Jews are looking forward to his coming because they claim he will bring about God's kingdom on Earth, after the establishment of a Jewish nation in Palestine. They await a leader from among the children of Prophet David, peace be upon him. According to Imaam Ibnul Qayyim, when this leader "moves his lips in prayers all the nations will die." They claim that he is the promised Messiah, and call him the 'Prince of Peace'. Believing that he will make all mankind subservient to the state of Israel, they are preparing for his arrival by gathering in Palestine. According to their beliefs, he will come to rule the Earth and reside in Jerusalem, which he will take as his capital. The person they are waiting for is the Dajjal, whom the Christians call the Antichrist. This is why the majority of the Dajjal's followers will be from the Jews.

The Christians and the Muslims agree that this promised Messiah leader is Jesus who will descend from Heaven and return to Earth to lead the great battle. This battle will be led by Jesus against the Anti-Christ and his followers.

The Christians believe that before the second coming of Jesus, those who believe in Jesus as the son of God will experience 'the rapture' when they will be raised up into the heavens to meet their Lord, and thereby will be saved from the Antichrist. They base their belief on the corrupted text of the Bible: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ [i.e., the dead Christians] will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The rest of the people will be left to perish with the king of darkness, son of Satan.

"Then the king [Anti-Christ] shall do according to his own will: He shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done" (Daniel 11:36).

The Christians believe that the Armageddon will take place in a small valley called Meggido in Palestine. They claim that the battle which will be led by Jesus against the Dajjal and his followers, will be crowned by victory for the Christians and the complete destruction of the non-Christians who will all drown in a lake of fire burning with brimstone. This is based on the corrupted text of the Bible: "Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, 'Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses, and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people both free and slave, both small and great.' And I saw the beast, the kings of the Earth, and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse against his army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast, and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh." (Revelation 19:17-21) "


The Christians should unite with Muslims. Just look at userdiscrement who supports the Israel state. It's not his fault. It is the Bible's teaching. He is only trying to be a good Christian. Even though he knows that Jews are treating Palestinians unjustly, it doesn't matter to him because he wants Jesus to come sooner.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:43 AM

Posted by: Merrika Aug 8 2006, 01:14 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 7 2006 @ 07:49 PM)
I want to know if, when, and why the jews in ancient Israel left/died out.  I don't know.  I used to believe (because many people propogate this myth) that they were all carted off to Babylon - but that seems not to be the case.  And the Babylonian exile (for the small percentage of Israelites population-wise that were enslaved there) wasn't that long, historically speaking.  After 50 or 100 years (?) they and their anscestors were free to return to Israel but very few did.  What I have been able to discern is that the final end to ancient Israel came at the hands of the Romans.  But I know nothing about it and am too busy to research it right now - if someone can clear this up we are into A.D. - where it gets fairly interesting fairly quick...


Here is an interesting site
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem3.htm
It explains briefly the Jews and their occupation of Jerusalem

It's interesting but a tad biased i think

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:43 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 03:11 AM

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:19 PM)
In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him. 


Faatimah, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Using the Jews as an example, we can see that it is often the case that THE VERY PIOUS, THE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE, THE VERY DEVOUT, who miss the Promised One when He comes to us.

With the Jews, Christ -- the Messiah, walked amonst them but they hunted Him down and crucified Him (or at least intended to, in your belief).

For this despicable act of Martyring the Messiah, God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy Jerusalem and banish the Jews from the holy land.

My point is that very few Jews recognized Christ as the Messiah, so what makes us think that WE will recognize Him?

GreatMuslim10, Faatimah, Bahreem; you all appear to be very devout, very knowledgeable and sincere Muslims. But how can you be sure that you wont fall into the same trap that the Jews did when Christ came the first time?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:43 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 8 2006, 03:19 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:11 PM)
QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:19 PM)
In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him. 



Faatimah, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Using the Jews as an example, we can see that it is often the case that THE VERY PIOUS, THE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE, THE VERY DEVOUT, who miss the Promised One when He comes to us.

With the Jews, Christ -- the Messiah, walked amonst them but they hunted Him down and crucified Him (or at least intended to, in your belief).

For this despicable act of Martyring the Messiah, God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy Jerusalem and banish the Jews from the holy land.

My point is that very few Jews recognized Christ as the Messiah, so what makes us think that WE will recognize Him?

GreatMuslim10, Faatimah, Bahreem; you all appear to be very devout, very knowledgeable and sincere Muslims. But how can you be sure that you wont fall into the same trap that the Jews did when Christ came the first time?


I know that I'll recognize Christ the second time he comes because of his character, because of his actions, and because of the events. His character will be that of a saint, he will kill the Anti-Christ and help Muslims and Christians join together to be true Muslims, and during this whole time, we'll realize by ahadith and signs of Judgement Day that he corresponds to them and that the prophecies have all been fulfilled with his emergence and through his actions. Once he'll kill the Anti-Christ, you'll realize he had to have been the Messiah. The Jews never actually knew who exactly he was before he came, but we do. We know so much about him because he is described thoroughly in the Qur'an and in many ahadith and his name is mentioned explicitly, whereas the Jews never knew what his name would be. We know what he looks like, whereas the Jews never knew what he'll look like. It'll be very obvious at the time of his emergence and many people will realize this. There is even a hadith that states that not one of the People of Book (Jews and Christians) that will not believe in him and in Islam before Prophet Jesus (pbuh) dies after his second coming. God willing, you'll see and I hope soon.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:43 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 8 2006, 06:05 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 8 2006 @ 03:19 AM)
QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:11 PM)

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:19 PM)
In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him. 



Faatimah, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Using the Jews as an example, we can see that it is often the case that THE VERY PIOUS, THE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE, THE VERY DEVOUT, who miss the Promised One when He comes to us.

With the Jews, Christ -- the Messiah, walked amonst them but they hunted Him down and crucified Him (or at least intended to, in your belief).

For this despicable act of Martyring the Messiah, God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy Jerusalem and banish the Jews from the holy land.

My point is that very few Jews recognized Christ as the Messiah, so what makes us think that WE will recognize Him?

GreatMuslim10, Faatimah, Bahreem; you all appear to be very devout, very knowledgeable and sincere Muslims. But how can you be sure that you wont fall into the same trap that the Jews did when Christ came the first time?


I know that I'll recognize Christ the second time he comes because of his character, because of his actions, and because of the events. His character will be that of a saint, he will kill the Anti-Christ and help Muslims and Christians join together to be true Muslims, and during this whole time, we'll realize by ahadith and signs of Judgement Day that he corresponds to them and that the prophecies have all been fulfilled with his emergence and through his actions. Once he'll kill the Anti-Christ, you'll realize he had to have been the Messiah. The Jews never actually knew who exactly he was before he came, but we do. We know so much about him because he is described thoroughly in the Qur'an and in many ahadith and his name is mentioned explicitly, whereas the Jews never knew what his name would be. We know what he looks like, whereas the Jews never knew what he'll look like. It'll be very obvious at the time of his emergence and many people will realize this. There is even a hadith that states that not one of the People of Book (Jews and Christians) that will not believe in him and in Islam before Prophet Jesus (pbuh) dies after his second coming. God willing, you'll see and I hope soon.



ok .. you say you know what he looks like ... what if when he comes back .. he looks different ... what if he comes back a woman? would you accept it ... would you believe it was him? because saying hew ould come back exactly as he was too begin ... to me .. thats what you would call "unlikely." i mean are you to think he'll come back through a rip in the sky? or that he will be born again in the new generation?

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:44 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 02:06 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 8 2006 @ 03:19 AM)
I know that I'll recognize Christ the second time he comes because of his character, because of his actions, and because of the events. 


I very much hope that you do recognize Him GreatMuslim10.

It would seem, however, that history is filled with humankind NOT recognizing Him.

Not only did the Jews fail to see in Christ the Messiah that they had so ardently prayed for, but the Christians failed to recognize in Mahammad the Christ that they desperately sought.

It might be advantageous for us to reflect on why these otherwise sincere and devout people failed to see God's holy Prophet when He was right there in front of them.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:44 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 02:18 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 7 2006 @ 07:49 PM)
I want to know if, when, and why the jews in ancient Israel left/died out.  I don't know.  I used to believe (because many people propogate this myth) that they were all carted off to Babylon - but that seems not to be the case.  And the Babylonian exile (for the small percentage of Israelites population-wise that were enslaved there) wasn't that long, historically speaking.  After 50 or 100 years (?) they and their anscestors were free to return to Israel but very few did.  What I have been able to discern is that the final end to ancient Israel came at the hands of the Romans.  But I know nothing about it and am too busy to research it right now - if someone can clear this up we are into A.D. - where it gets fairly interesting fairly quick...


Yes indeed Sanders. The Roman general Titus was raised up and destroyed Jerusalem, razing it to the ground in 70AD. He exiled the Jews under threat of death from the holy land. They were allowed to return under the Edict of Tolleration of 1844AD.

Outwardly this was because the Jews revolted and he came to put down the revolt.

Spiritually it is looked at as God's retribution on the Jews for having slain His divine Prophet.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:44 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 03:02 PM

After Christ was crucified the early Christians were persecuted, both by the Jewish hierarchy and the Roman population.

Christ was viewed, if He was viewed at all, as a person of little note. There is, apparently, no record of Him by the Roman chroniclers.

Contrast that with today! Many a king will loudly proclaim his allegiance to His Cause. But it's a whole heap easier today to declare oneself a Christian than it was back when one had to endure the vilest persecutions on ones road to God.

In around 300 AD emporer Constantine declared himself to be a Christian and ended the state-sanctioned persecutions of the Christians.

Constantine moved the capital from Rome to the new city of Constantinople. Eventually Constantinople became the Eastern Roman empire and I do believe they were termed Byzantines.

Constantinople became a center of excellence. The city was glorious, lavish and opulent. It had gold roofed palaces and bejewelled churches. It's architecture was impressive. Defended by "Greek Fire" (the formula of which is still unknown) it remained invoilable until the fratricidal sacking by the Fourth Crusade in 1204 AD. Though Pope Innocent III showed disembled regret, he delighted in this violation of the stronghold of Byzantine Christianity, and was probably its architect, as now the Roman church was the main branch. Pope Innocent III is described in John William Draper's "The Intellectual Development of Europe" as a "great criminal" because of his many evil doings, one of which was the unspeakably despicable and lewd sacking of Constantinople.
----------------------

By around 500 AD the spark had gone out of the Christian religion.
People now viewed Christianity as an easy path to power. Those lacking in leadership qualities, in wisdom and learning, sought the only route to dominance available to them: outward piety and a speed rise up the religious ranks.

All sorts of corruptions invaded the church; simony, trade in (fake) holy relics, murder, institutionalized extortion, spying under the guise of auricular confession, etc.

At around this time, Europe sunk into the superstitious Dark Ages, not to resurface for a full thousand years.

After every winter we have spring. And after the winter period engulfed Christianity, Muhammad brought the springtime of Islam to humankind.

The Muslims were often invited to take over cities because the residents knew that they would clear out the corruptions of the Christian clergy.

In Alexandria they were invited to conquer by members of the Coptic Christian sect.

In Spain they were aided by disaffected Spaniards after the daughter of one notable was raped by a Spanish prince ( I do believe that at this time they were known as Goths, and they thought of themselves as Roman).

For a summary of Islam we need look no further than George Townshend's summary of John William Draper's "The Intellectual Development of Europe" (1853). This is pure poetry:

“Because of the central position of the Quran, revered as a literary miracle, and because of Arabian pride in their language, which they held to be the one perfect tongue spoken by man and which is indeed regarded by scholars today as one of the greatest intellectual achievements of the race, literature in all its uses and forms was given a place of eminence. Schools and universities were founded and thronged by students of many nations. Great works were produced on all manner of subjects; great libraries were collected containing hundreds of thousands of volumes. The Caliphs ransacked the earth for knowledge, sending out expeditions of inquiry and making foreign lands and distant ages give up their lore. An army of translators was employed, rendering Greek, Egyptian, Indian and Jewish works into Arabic. Grammar and its laws were studied with great elaboration. Dictionaries, lexicons and encyclopedias on a vast scale were prepared. Paper was introduced from China; a new system of numerals (usually known as Arabic) from India. Arabic became the universal language. Caliphs would invite literary men of international repute to the court. Scholars, philosophers, poets, grammarians from diverse lands would find a meeting place in the great bookshops of the capital.

The pursuit of science, practical as well as abstract, kept pace with that of letters. In experimental science, in medicine and surgery, in chemistry and physics, in geography as well as in mathematics and astronomy, the Arabs led the world of that day. They invented a new and exquisite form of architecture, distinguished by its combination of airy grace with solid strength, and by its use of light. The influence of this style can be traced through India as far as Java, to China, to the Sudan and to the whole of Russia. They developed many branches of industry and improved methods of agriculture and horticulture. Introducing the use of the mariner’s compass their ships traversed the seas while caravans maintained a trade between all provinces of the empire, carrying produce from India and China, Turkistan and Russia, from Africa and the Malayan Archipelago.

The glory of Baghdad with its mosques and palaces, its temples of learning, its fragrant gardens, was reproduced in the lesser centers of the world of Islam: in Basra, in Bokhara, in Granada and Cordoba. It is written of the last-named city that at the height of its prosperity it contained more than 200,000 houses and more than a million inhabitants and that a man after sunset might walk in a straight line for ten miles along paved and illuminated streets—yet in Europe centuries later there was not a paved street in Paris nor a public lamp in London.

Cordoba was the first University founded in Europe, and in its halls multitudes of Christian scholars received instruction, among them being Gerbert who afterwards became Sylvester II, the brilliant Pope of Rome.

Inevitably, and in spite of the antagonism between Christendom and Islam, this advanced civilization influenced the course of life and thought in Europe. Through the Muslim outpost in Sicily and the scintillating brilliance of Muslim Spain, through the intelligence of scholars and the resources of the Muslim universities, through traders, through diplomats and travelers, through soldiers, sailors and reconquered peasants, new ideas, techniques, and attitudes passed from Islam to Western Europe.”

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:44 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 8 2006, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Aug 8 2006 @ 06:05 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 8 2006 @ 03:19 AM)

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:11 PM)

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:19 PM)
In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him. 


Faatimah, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Using the Jews as an example, we can see that it is often the case that THE VERY PIOUS, THE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE, THE VERY DEVOUT, who miss the Promised One when He comes to us.

With the Jews, Christ -- the Messiah, walked amonst them but they hunted Him down and crucified Him (or at least intended to, in your belief).

For this despicable act of Martyring the Messiah, God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy Jerusalem and banish the Jews from the holy land.

My point is that very few Jews recognized Christ as the Messiah, so what makes us think that WE will recognize Him?

[B]GreatMuslim10, Faatimah, Bahreem; you all appear to be very devout, very knowledgeable and sincere Muslims. But how can you be sure that you wont fall into the same trap that the Jews did when Christ came the first time?[/B]


I know that I'll recognize Christ the second time he comes because of his character, because of his actions, and because of the events. His character will be that of a saint, he will kill the Anti-Christ and help Muslims and Christians join together to be true Muslims, and during this whole time, we'll realize by ahadith and signs of Judgement Day that he corresponds to them and that the prophecies have all been fulfilled with his emergence and through his actions. Once he'll kill the Anti-Christ, you'll realize he had to have been the Messiah. The Jews never actually knew who exactly he was before he came, but we do. We know so much about him because he is described thoroughly in the Qur'an and in many ahadith and his name is mentioned explicitly, whereas the Jews never knew what his name would be. We know what he looks like, whereas the Jews never knew what he'll look like. It'll be very obvious at the time of his emergence and many people will realize this. There is even a hadith that states that not one of the People of Book (Jews and Christians) that will not believe in him and in Islam before Prophet Jesus (pbuh) dies after his second coming. God willing, you'll see and I hope soon.


ok .. you say you know what he looks like ... what if when he comes back .. he looks different ... what if he comes back a woman? would you accept it ... would you believe it was him? because saying hew ould come back exactly as he was too begin ... to me .. thats what you would call "unlikely." i mean are you to think he'll come back through a rip in the sky? or that he will be born again in the new generation?


Jesus will not come back as a woman, thats just silly. Quran and Sunnah don't say he'll come back as anything but himself.
I don't know why that seems unlikely to you. Why on earth would Jesus come back as anything but himself. Even if we didn't know(which we do know) how Jesus would appear to us in his return we know how the Anti Christ looks and behaves. So if anything we'd know how to avoid false impersonations of Jesus.
But Alhamdulillah we know how Jesus will appear to us and what he will do and what will lead up to the last days. So as long as we are knowledgable (and not too eager for his return that we'll believe anything) the believers are in good shape.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:44 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 8 2006, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 8 2006 @ 03:11 AM)
QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 7 2006 @ 11:19 PM)

In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him. 


Faatimah, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Using the Jews as an example, we can see that it is often the case that THE VERY PIOUS, THE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE, THE VERY DEVOUT, who miss the Promised One when He comes to us.

With the Jews, Christ -- the Messiah, walked amonst them but they hunted Him down and crucified Him (or at least intended to, in your belief).

For this despicable act of Martyring the Messiah, God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy Jerusalem and banish the Jews from the holy land.

My point is that very few Jews recognized Christ as the Messiah, so what makes us think that WE will recognize Him?

GreatMuslim10, Faatimah, Bahreem; you all appear to be very devout, very knowledgeable and sincere Muslims. But how can you be sure that you wont fall into the same trap that the Jews did when Christ came the first time?


We'll unlike the Jews, Muslims and Christians know that Jesus is coming and he is the true Messiah. Many Jews will end up following the Anti- Christ cause they are just so eager to meet their Messiah. And of course like the generations of Jews that came before them they will not except Jesus.
And so the cycle continues.....

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:44 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 9 2006, 02:55 AM

QUOTE
Well unlike the Jews, Muslims and Christians know that Jesus is coming and he is the true Messiah. Many Jews will end up following the Anti- Christ cause they are just so eager to meet their Messiah. And of course like the generations of Jews that came before them they will not except Jesus.
And so the cycle continues..... 


This is true...Muslims and Christians agree on the coming of Jesus.

But, Jews and Christians are in accordance about God...though I do not wish to stir up the Allah is God and God is Allah debate once more.

Sorry for my absence, I have been working on my next speech...and worrying about my date...I've never actually been on one.

Posted by: librarian Nov 12 2006, 06:45 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 03:04 AM

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 8 2006 @ 09:08 PM)
Jesus will not come back as a woman, thats just silly. Quran and Sunnah don't say he'll come back as anything but himself.
I don't know why that seems unlikely to you. Why on earth would Jesus come back as anything but himself. Even if we didn't know(which we do know) how Jesus would appear to us in his return we know how the Anti Christ looks and behaves. So if anything we'd know how to avoid false impersonations of Jesus.
But Alhamdulillah we know how Jesus will appear to us and what he will do and what will lead up to the last days. So as long as we are knowledgable (and not too eager for his return that we'll believe anything) the believers are in good shape.


Hmmm, Faatimah, you seem very sure of yourself on that point.

I have Christian friends who say pretty much the same thing, except they say that He will come down on a cloud, He will have blonde hair and blue eyes, He will do this and that, etc.

Isn't it this type of expectation that has veiled the Jews from the reality of Christ when He came to them before?

Could it not be this type of literal interpretation of scripture and traditions that veiled the Christians from the reality of Muhammad?

Would it be possible that you may be repeating the same mistakes in expecting a fulfillment of prophecies based on teachings and expectations given to you by experts in theological matters?

It was these same pious, devout and knowledgable Jewish experts who denied Christ, who failed to recognize the Christ spirit in Muhammad and who will probably fail to recognize Him when He returns.

There would hardly be two groups who can be said to agree on what the conditions of the Promised One will be, what signs will accompany His arrival, yet each group avidly claims that THEIR particular scenario is the one that will prevail.

Faatimah, you say that Jesus will not come back as a woman. Why is that so silly? He is Christ; can He not appear to us as He chooses?

You say that Jesus will not come back as anything but Himself. What is "Himself"?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:52 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 9 2006, 03:41 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 9 2006 @ 03:04 AM)
QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 8 2006 @ 09:08 PM)
Jesus will not come back as a woman, thats just silly. Quran and Sunnah don't say he'll come back as anything but himself.
I don't know why that seems unlikely to you. Why on earth would Jesus come back as anything but himself. Even if we didn't know(which we do know) how Jesus would appear to us in his return we know how the Anti Christ looks and behaves. So if anything we'd know how to avoid false impersonations of Jesus.
But Alhamdulillah we know how Jesus will appear to us and what he will do and what will lead up to the last days. So as long as we are knowledgable (and not too eager for his return that we'll believe anything) the believers are in good shape.


Hmmm, Faatimah, you seem very sure of yourself on that point.

I have Christian friends who say pretty much the same thing, except they say that He will come down on a cloud, He will have blonde hair and blue eyes, He will do this and that, etc.

Isn't it this type of expectation that has veiled the Jews from the reality of Christ when He came to them before?

Could it not be this type of literal interpretation of scripture and traditions that veiled the Christians from the reality of Muhammad?

Would it be possible that you may be repeating the same mistakes in expecting a fulfillment of prophecies based on teachings and expectations given to you by experts in theological matters?

It was these same pious, devout and knowledgable Jewish experts who denied Christ, who failed to recognize the Christ spirit in Muhammad and who will probably fail to recognize Him when He returns.

There would hardly be two groups who can be said to agree on what the conditions of the Promised One will be, what signs will accompany His arrival, yet each group avidly claims that THEIR particular scenario is the one that will prevail.

Faatimah, you say that Jesus will not come back as a woman. Why is that so silly? He is Christ; can He not appear to us as He chooses?

You say that Jesus will not come back as anything but Himself. What is "Himself"?


Well that where you have to really question the Christians...the bible doesn't state that Jesus has blonde hair and blue eyes in the first place. So why they believe that is a mystery...

I don't know why the Jews denied Jesus and then in return the Christians denied Muhammad. As a Muslim I can just hope we don't make the same mistakes.

Jesus can't appear as he chooses, he can only as Allah wills. Allah never said Jesus would return as a Muslim, meaning he won't. Allah says Jesus will return as himself. And himself is Prophet Isa, he will look like the same man he did when he lived on Earth so long ago.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:53 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 9 2006, 03:46 AM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 9 2006 @ 02:55 AM)
QUOTE
We'll unlike the Jews, Muslims and Christians know that Jesus is coming and he is the true Messiah. Many Jews will end up following the Anti- Christ cause they are just so eager to meet their Messiah. And of course like the generations of Jews that came before them they will not except Jesus.
And so the cycle continues..... 


This is true...Muslims and Christians agree on the coming of Jesus.

But, Jews and Christians are in accordance about God...though I do not wish to stir up the Allah is God and God is Allah debate once more.

Sorry for my absence, I have been working on my next speech...and worrying about my date...I've never actually been on one. unsure.gif


DayAfterTomorrow, what do you mean by Jews and Christians are in accordance about God?

By the way that movie Day After Tomorrow was pretty good.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:53 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 05:17 AM

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 9 2006 @ 03:41 AM)
Allah says Jesus will return as himself. And himself is Prophet Isa, he will look like the same man he did when he lived on Earth so long ago.



And you have an ID image of Him from two thousand years ago so you will know to compare the two?    dunno.gif

Faatimah jon, I am grilling you on this point because it is a very common theme throughout history that
people of the established religion universally fail to recognize their Promised One when He appears
and after much experience with this, humankind still today is again expecting the literal fulfillment of their prophecies.

In Revelations we are told to expect someone with feet of brass and a sword for a tongue. Gracious! Can these scriptural promises not have a meaning other than the literal, outward meaning?

I read somewhere that one of the great Muslim poets, I think it was Rumi, a Man Who I consider to be a minor prophet under the umbrella of Muhammad's Revelation, said that the literal Words of the Koran are only there to deceive the unbelievers. He said that we should look for the underlying meaning. Only the pure in heart can discover that hidden meaning. He went on to say that the meanings of the Koran are seven in number; the last 3 or 4 meanings are veiled to all except God.

Do you have any thoughts on these comments, Faatimah? (or Kelly, Bahreem, GreatMuslim10, Pr0mythius, etc?)

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:53 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 9 2006, 05:36 AM

QUOTE
QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 9 2006 @ 03:41 AM)

Allah says Jesus will return as himself. And himself is Prophet Isa, he will look like the same man he did when he lived on Earth so long ago.


And you have an ID image of Him from two thousand years ago so you will know to compare the two?    dunno.gif

Faatimah jon, I am grilling you on this point because it is a very common theme throughout history that
people of the established religion universally fail to recognize their Promised One when He appears
and after much experience with this, humankind still today is again expecting the literal fulfillment of their prophecies.

In Revelations we are told to expect someone with feet of brass and a sword for a tongue. Gracious! Can these scriptural promises not have a meaning other than the literal, outward meaning?

I read somewhere that one of the great Muslim poets, I think it was Rumi, a Man Who I consider to be a minor prophet under the umbrella of Muhammad's Revelation, said that the literal Words of the Koran are only there to deceive the unbelievers. He said that we should look for the underlying meaning. Only the pure in heart can discover that hidden meaning. He went on to say that the meanings of the Koran are seven in number; the last 3 or 4 meanings are veiled to all except God.

Do you have any thoughts on these comments, Faatimah? (or Kelly, Bahreem, GreatMuslim10, Pr0mythius, etc?)


Allah says that somethings in the Qur'an are made simple and straight forward and others are made more complex.

People are known to turn the other cheek and be easily swayed. So even if they saw people with brass feet and a tongue like a sword who was suppose to be some savior or bringer of peace or whatever, some fast talker would be able to convince some of us otherwise sadly.
Many people think that what some is in the Quran is a metaphor for a deeper meaning. It is probably true for some things.

I have never heard of Rumi's theory on their being 7 meanings to the Qur'an.
And I don't know if there is any truth behind that.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:53 AM

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 9 2006, 10:01 AM

faati ... you're kinda seeming like the types that think in a way that if its not in the holy book .. then it just isnt so. like the quote of jesus saying in the new testament "this is the way ... if it wasnt i would have told ya."

you dont know what jesus truely looked like back then .. niether do i .. we can only guess. and the pictures throughout the ages do not count. hell he could have been black -shrug- we dunno.

personally i hope he comes back in the form of a 10 foot tall reptilian. -nods- that would be cool. now see .. if you were to say THAT was silly ... you would be justified ... but it being silly for him to come back as a woman. its silly for you to say its silly that he would come back as a woman.

and if he comes down from a "cloud" that cloud will have an engine and doors on it. *hint hint*

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:53 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 10:38 AM

Okay, ["Back to topic!!!" emoticon]

Rennaissance

After the Islamic Golden Age had been dazzling the eyes of the superstitious Europeans sunk deep in their Dark Ages, gradually the grip of the church was forcibly loosened by such luminaries as Fibonacci, Copernicus, Kepler, DaVinci, etc. "Greater than the march of mighty armies, and the powerful grip of a stifling religious orthodoxy, is an idea whose time has come."

Thus, the Rennaissance was born around 1400 AD. There had been many mini Rennaissances prior to this but each time it was forcibly put down by the religious secret police. The Age of Reason established science as the defining criterion of Truth rather than belief, in accord with Muhammad's injunction, "More holy than the blood of the martyr is the ink of the scholar".

It is important to note that the Rennaissance burst forth in the European arena in spite of religious orthodoxy, not because of it.

The European Rennaissance, fueled by the Inspiration of the Islamic Dispensation, climbed to great heights of discovery while the Islamic world gradually declined in prestige and influence.


[Edit: typos]

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:54 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 10:54 AM

When this decline of the Islamic Golden Age was complete, and the world was once again sunk in a spiritual winter, a man was born in the Arabian Peninsula in 1750.

His name was Shaykh Ahmad, and he was to be the first of two heralds of two Holy Ones.

In the Bible we are told that "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
(King James Bible, Matthew 24:27 )

Indeed, we can pinpoint the commencement of the Industrial Revolution to 1750 AD, coincident with the birth of the herald for the new holy Prophet. The influence of the religion, instead of gradually illuminating the West after the passage of many centuries, now instantly Inspired the West. (Trust me. I've done much research on the beginings of the Industrial Revolution).

Shaykh Ahmad was succeeded by Siyyid Kazim who urged his followers to seek out the Promised One.

In 1844, the year 1260 AH (note that date well) the Bab, the holy Prophet-Herald of One greater than Himself, declared to one of Siyyid Kazim's followers that He was the Bab, the Gate of God.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:54 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 11:13 AM

It's interesting to note that Biblical scholars have calculated 1260 years for the coming of the Promised One, but because they didn't recognize the Divine Station of Muhammad they failed to take the Hijira into consideration when trying to fit "1260 years" into their calculations.

Those same scholars also calculated "1844" from other Biblical prophecies.

Both these dates came together when the Bab declared His mission, 1844 AD, 1260 AH.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:54 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 03:33 PM

QUOTE (Merrika @ Aug 8 2006 @ 10:14 AM)
Here is an interesting site
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem3.htm
It explains briefly the Jews and their occupation of Jerusalem

It's interesting but a tad biased i think


Thanks for that link, Merrika. I didn't think it was all that biased. I was disapointed that it only dealt with Jeruselem, not Israel or Judah as a whole, but decent. For anyone who didn't read it,


QUOTE
The Jewish national and religious tie to Jerusalem was first established by King David and Solomon, his son, who built the first Temple there. This First Commonwealth lasted over 400 years, until the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and exiled the Jewish inhabitants of the city. Immediately following the Persian defeat of the Babylonians, the Jews returned to Jerusalem less than 100 years later, rebuilt their Temple and reestablished the Jewish character of the city.

...Greeks, Seleucids and Romans took turns in conquering the city, forbidding Jewish religious practices and encouraging the Jews to assimilate into the dominant culture. ... Only after the Second Temple was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD, and a subsequent Jewish revolt was crushed in 135 AD, was the Jewish presence in the city temporarily suspended, following the killing or enslavement of the Jewish population by the Romans.

By the 4th century, some Jews had managed to make their way back to the city. In the 5th century, under early Christian rule, Jews were, at various times, either more or less free to practice their religion....

At the beginning of the 7th century, the Jews looked to the Persians for salvation. Hoping to be permitted to worship freely once the Byzantine oppression had been removed, the Jews encouraged the Persians' conquest of Acre and Jerusalem, and a Jewish community was subsequently allowed to settle and worship in Jerusalem (614-17), though it was later expelled. Under early Arab rule, a Jewish community was reestablished in Jerusalem and flourished in the 8th century. ...In the 10th and 11th centuries, however, harsh measures were imposed against the Jews by the Fatimids, who seized power in 969....

The Crusader period in the 12th century brought terrible massacres of Jews by Christians, and the prohibition against living in Jerusalem. After the conquest of the country by Saladin late in the century, the Jewish community in Jerusalem again grew considerably....

Jewish communities existed in Jerusalem throughout the Middle Ages, though under economic stress, and religious and social discrimination. During this period, the Jews in the city were supported in large measure by the tourist trade, commerce and contributions from Jews abroad (Europe, the Mediterranean countries and North Africa), who did what they could to help maintain the center of the Jewish People. The Expulsion from Spain and Portugal, in the late 15th century, led to an influx of Jews into the Land, including Jerusalem.

The 16th and 17th centuries were times of economic hardship for the Jews, during which the population of Jerusalem was somewhat reduced. By the end of the 17th century, however, Jerusalem again emerged as the largest central community of the Jews in the Land. Large numbers of Jews immigrated in the 18th century as a result of the messianic-Shabbatean movement, many coming from Eastern and Central Europe, Italy, and other places. Even so, the majority of Jews in the Land in the 17th and 18th centuries were Sephardic Jews, descendants of those expelled from Spain, and immigrants from Turkey and the Balkan countries.

During the 19th century, immigration increased and the establishment of the modern Zionist movement revitalized the Jewish community throughout Israel. Jerusalem, which in 1800 numbered about 2,000 Jews (out of a total population of 8,750), grew to 11,000 by 1870 (out of 22,000), and 40,000 (out of 60,000) by 1905. It is the political, cultural and religious center of the State of Israel and of the Jewish People around the world.

Some things are skewed. For example it states that the jews returned to Jeruselem from exile in Babylon. Actually only a small percentage of Jews returned. Also, if you take this article for gospel (pun intended), Israel should have been full of Jews by the 20th century. I have a book about the Israeli/Palestine conflict, it is the worst written book I've ever tried to read (only the author has read it cover to cover probably), but what's interesting is practically the whole book is about population, there are lots and lots of census graphs to demonstrate the zionists progress in increasing the Jewish population to counter the Arab population - the Jews were a small minority in Palestine for a very long time.

But I'm jumping ahead.

Personally I'm content to skip over the Gospel - only because everyone knows the story. This is nothing but an overview, but in the first centuries after Christ, monotheistic religion was in a very tenuous state. Christians were few and were persecuted mercilessley, Jews were thrown out of Jeruselem and persecuted as well.

Then something happened, or two things actually. in the 4th century Constantine converted to Christianity and made it the official religion of the Byzantine Empire. Meanwhile, the Roman Empire was under attack and eventually collapsed (very slowly) leaving the Gothic tribes in control of Europe. These people were pegans and unsophisticated, but their Kings eventually came to yearn for the grandeur of the Roman Empire they had destroyed and the Byzantine Empire they heard stories about and obtained things of high quality from...

Then the wife of Clovis, the King of the Franks, decided to become a Christian (she might have converted before becoming Clovis' wife, I don't remember). Their first child died, when their second child got sick as well, Clovis's wife prayed fervently and the child survived. So when Clovis got into a jam on the battlefield he tried praying for victory, and it worked, he was convinced. All the Franks were baptized and Christianity was off and running in Europe.

I wrote that without doing any fact-checking so I might have fumbled a little bit...

I think there is also an interesting side-story about the 'aryans' from around this time (in Africa???).

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:54 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 03:35 PM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 9 2006 @ 02:55 AM)
But, Jews and Christians are in accordance about God...though I do not wish to stir up the Allah is God and God is Allah debate once more.


That is quite a deceptive methodology. You say something and belittle it by saying that you don't want "stir" it up. Then why did you state it in the first place? I already explained it to you and usediscernment in my rebuttal in the first few pages. Allah is God in `Arabic. Go find yourself an `Arabic Bible.

Now, what about your Christian brethren (`Arabs) in Lebanon that are heavily being bombarded by the Israeli Jews? These Christians cry to Allah for help and comfort.

In other words, the Israeli Jews are not in accordance with the God (Allah) of the Lebanese Christians.

Some words of advice: Don't be ignorant and delusional.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:54 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 03:49 PM

was writing another post to say:

"Sorry I haven't been around much lately, long work days. I checked in today to find a whole new page of posts - and Holy War hadn't even broke out ! Thanks all for the good reading - "

And I previewed it and laughed. Common guys, not this 'are Allah and God the same god?' crap again??

Yaawwwwn

How 'bout this for a concept - my God and Sinewy's God and DayAfter's God are ALL different Gods because they are all reside in each of our heads ohmy.gif

Please don't anyone respond to that - or we WILL have a holy war break out . doh1.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:55 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 04:01 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 9 2006 @ 03:04 AM)
You say that Jesus will not come back as anything but Himself. What is "Himself"? 


No one knows for sure how Jesus will be recognized (for those that have faith in him). Christians and Muslims rely on their traditions as sources to depict the image of Jesus.

More than 50% of the world's population don't believe in him. It is of no importance to them.


Faatimah,

QUOTE
Jesus can't appear as he chooses, he can only as Allah wills. Allah never said Jesus would return as a Muslim, meaning he won't. Allah says Jesus will return as himself. And himself is Prophet Isa, he will look like the same man he did when he lived on Earth so long ago. 


Prophets of God are known to be Muslims (Wa ana minal muslimiin), those that submitted themselves to the will of God, in Islam. So in essence Jesus is viewed as a muslim. That was his true nature according to Islam.

There are known to be reliable traditions amongst the many fabricated hadiths regarding the descent of Mahdi. In some narrations, Jesus will be praying behind the Imam (Mahdi).

The religion of Islam will not be abrogated by Jesus's return as the Qur'an is viewed to be the last revealed, divine book by the Muslims.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:55 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 04:03 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 9 2006 @ 03:49 PM)
Please don't anyone respond to that - or we WILL have a holy war break out  . 



["NO WAR FOR OIL!" emoticon]

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:55 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 04:04 PM

Well, you better hope the messiah doesn't decide to return anytime soon - he'd get thrown into Gitmo the first time he opened his mouth

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:55 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 9 2006, 04:57 PM

QUOTE
That is quite a deceptive methodology. You say something and belittle it by saying that you don't want "stir" it up. Then why did you state it in the first place?


How is that deceptive methodology? I didn't say I didn't want to stir it up, I said I didn't want to stir it up AGAIN, as it has already been thoroughly discussed. I stated it because I was in agreement with GreatMuslim on Christ's return with the exception that he believes Allah and God are the same, and I do not.

If you would like me to enter into that debate again, I would be more than happy to do so, but seeing as it has already discussed, understanding was reached, and a consensus was never agreed to, I see no point in continuing that aspect of this discussion any further. I was just referring to what had been discussed earlier, without the intention of starting up that debate again.

I apologize for my "deceptive methodology."

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:55 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (DayAfterTomorrow @ Aug 9 2006 @ 04:57 PM)
QUOTE
That is quite a deceptive methodology. You say something and belittle it by saying that you don't want "stir" it up. Then why did you state it in the first place?


How is that deceptive methodology? I didn't say I didn't want to stir it up, I said I didn't want to stir it up AGAIN, as it has already been thoroughly discussed. I stated it because I was in agreement with GreatMuslim on Christ's return with the exception that he believes Allah and God are the same, and I do not.

If you would like me to enter into that debate again, I would be more than happy to do so, but seeing as it has already discussed, understanding was reached, and a consensus was never agreed to, I see no point in continuing that aspect of this discussion any further. I was just referring to what had been discussed earlier, without the intention of starting up that debate again.

I apologize for my "deceptive methodology."



Nice sidestepping to what I stated. You didn't answer to the core of my material that was thwarted at you. You still remain in denial.

Now, why do the `Arab Christians refer God as Allah? Are you a better Christian than them? You have a different god than them? Are you both polytheists then?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:56 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 05:40 PM

Stop it.


I'll tell you a secret. This kind of debate serves three purposes - to make the divide between people wider, to offer a means for each party to try to feel good about themselves at the expence of the other, and to close off the means by which to convince the other side of your view.

The only time you win these kinds of arguments is in a Presidential debate, where at the end the news pundits exclaim - YOU WIN !!!!

Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode, to react violently. That is why the subject of 9/11 produces such anguish.

There is only one way to make a person listen to what you have to say - they have to want to. Explaining a new view to someone, whether it's about 9/11 or Religion, is exactly like a guy wooing a girl. You have to make them interested in what you have to say. You have to first establish report. If what you have to say isn't interesting to them, if what you have to say comes off as you attacking their beliefs, they will go into defensive mode and stop listening and start formulating counterattack strategies. Sure it feels good to say what you know in your heart to be true, but it is wasted if it is just going to be ignored or ridiculed. It blows my mind that people try as hard as they can to make enemies of people that don't agree with them and then complain that their voices aren't heard. I'm talking in generalities mind you, not about religion necessarily, more about 9/11 and this site and the 'skeptics'. (And my dad !...)

For goodness' sake, DayAfterTomorrow, if Sinewy is trying to tell you the God he believes in is essentially the same God you believe in, should you not welcome that news?

For goodness' sake, if DayAfterTomorrow believes that her god is different from the Islamic Allah, isn't that OK too? The important thing is for people to start really listening to each other - . This is so much like arguing about semantics, which I find totally meaningless.

My 2 cents.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:56 AM

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 9 2006, 06:14 PM

Look, I honestly don't care what anyone else believes, when it comes down to it, we all are accountable for our own beliefs, not those of others.

It was my understanding that we had already discussed the God/Allah being the same thing scenario, so I'm sorry I mentioned it.

My point all along has been that there is one God and only one God. Christians and Jews call Him God, Muslims call Him Allah. It is when Christians and Jew's beliefs on the characteristics of God diverge from the Muslim's beliefs on the characteristics of Allah that you have the problem. If God to Christians and Jews loves the Jewish people, and Allah of Muslims hates the Jewish people, that is a distinct difference at the core of this conflict. So, if God has two totally different sets of characteristics to each of these religions, and there is only one God, then someone is wrong. God cannot love Jews and hate them simultaneously, it is contradicting and hypocritical, and I think we can all agree that if God/Allah is perfect, He cannot be contradicting and hypocritical.

I am not trying to win, I was not even trying to argue by my initial statement. I was simply agreeing with GreatMuslim, yet setting a reminder of the fundamental differences between God/Allah. If you do not believe there are differences, then that's your perogative, and it honestly does not phase me in the least.

Sinewy, I apologize, I am having a rather crappy week and I don't mean to take it out on you or anyone else on here. I do respect your opinions and beliefs, and I'm sorry if I don't always come across as such.

Kelly

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:56 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 9 2006 @ 05:40 PM)
Stop it.

I'll tell you a secret. This kind of debate serves three purposes - to make the divide between people wider, to offer a means for each party to try to feel good about themselves at the expence of the other, and to close off the means by which to convince the other side of your view.

The only time you win these kinds of arguments is in a Presidential debate, where at the end the news pundits exclaim - YOU WIN !!!!

Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode, to react violently. That is why the subject of 9/11 produces such anguish.

There is only one way to make a person listen to what you have to say - they have to want to. Explaining a new view to someone, whether it's about 9/11 or Religion, is exactly like a guy wooing a girl. You have to make them interested in what you have to say. You have to first establish report. If what you have to say isn't interesting to them, if what you have to say comes off as you attacking their beliefs, they will go into defensive mode and stop listening and start formulating counterattack strategies. Sure it feels good to say what you know in your heart to be true, but it is wasted if it is just going to be ignored or ridiculed. It blows my mind that people try as hard as they can to make enemies of people that don't agree with them and then complain that their voices aren't heard. I'm talking in generalities mind you, not about religion necessarily, more about 9/11 and this site and the 'skeptics'. (And my dad !...)

For goodness' sake, DayAfterTomorrow, if Sinewy is trying to tell you the God he believes in is essentially the same God you believe in, should you not welcome that news?

For goodness' sake, if DayAfterTomorrow believes that her god is different from the Islamic Allah, isn't that OK too? The important thing is for people to start really listening to each other - . This is so much like arguing about semantics, which I find totally meaningless.

My 2 cents. 


QUOTE
Stop it.


Stop to a means, sure.


QUOTE
I'll tell you a secret. This kind of debate serves three purposes - to make the divide between people wider, to offer a means for each party to try to feel good about themselves at the expence of the other, and to close off the means by which to convince the other side of your view.


The second purpose is the not my intent nor is the third. The first is inevitable even if all precautions are employed.

Self righteousness is exemplified by DayAfterTomorrow. It is racist in nature. Denying that Allah does not refer to God or "Father", because of the `Arabic origins and Islamic usage of the term Allah, shows that `Arab Christians are ignorant of their language and worship the "wrong" God. That is the implicit meaning of her words. She does not come to the realization of this.

It is not about which religion or belief system is right or wrong, but that arrogance should be expected to take a back seat.

QUOTE
Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode, to react violently. That is why the subject of 9/11 produces such anguish. 


Please show me where I threatened the "other's" beliefs. It was all defensive. Offensive outbursts were started by the instigators. They know who they are.

The way Islam is approached is analogous to the way people "first" approach 9/11 on this forum: Skeptical.


QUOTE
For goodness' sake, if DayAfterTomorrow believes that her god is different from the Islamic Allah, isn't that OK too? The important thing is for people to start really listening to each other - . This is so much like arguing about semantics, which I find totally meaningless.


See above. It is okay, but not at the expense of ignoring `Arab Christians usage of the name "Allah" and isolating it to Islam only.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:56 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 9 2006, 06:23 PM

I think what Sinewy is trying to say is that God is the same as Elohim and Allah. Many Jews call God today Elohim, which is Hebrew for God. Do you hear Christians saying that they are worshipping a different god? No. I, too, don't want to start a debate again, but what I'm saying is that we all believe that we worship the same God as each other (Jews, Christians, and Muslims). We only have different conceptions about Him. If Christians don't want to accept that Muslims do worship their God, then that is okay, but we do have the intention to do so and we are.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:56 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 06:38 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 10 2006 @ 03:23 AM)
I think what Sinewy is trying to say is that God is the same as Elohim and Allah.  Many Jews call God today Elohim, which is Hebrew for God.  Do you hear Christians saying that they are worshipping a different god?  No.  I, too, don't want to start a debate again, but what I'm saying is that we all believe that we worship the same God as each other (Jews, Christians, and Muslims).  We only have different conceptions about Him.  If Christians don't want to accept that Muslims do worship their God, then that is okay, but we do have the intention to do so and we are.


smile.gif

Nice post, GM10. DID EVERYONE READ THAT?!?!?? Please do.

We are saying the same thing. I am going one step further in a slightly different direction, in saying that you can't force anything down anyone's throat. I am glad we are having these kinds of discussions, for the reason that Christians, by and large, believe that Islam is some kind of totally foreign religion that believes in something totally different from what Christians believe. This is of course false, this is of course the result of a thousand years of propoganda designed to pit Christian against Muslim, forwarded first by the Holy Roman Pope in the 12th century in order to rally the Christians of Europe to march into Palestine (12 times finally) to try to seize Jerusesum from the Arab residents.

Edit: spelling

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:56 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 10 2006, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 9 2006 @ 04:01 PM)
QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 9 2006 @ 03:04 AM)
You say that Jesus will not come back as anything but Himself. What is "Himself"? 


No one knows for sure how Jesus will be recognized (for those that have faith in him). Christians and Muslims rely on their traditions as sources to depict the image of Jesus.

More than 50% of the world's population don't believe in him. It is of no importance to them.


Faatimah,

QUOTE
Jesus can't appear as he chooses, he can only as Allah wills. Allah never said Jesus would return as a Muslim, meaning he won't. Allah says Jesus will return as himself. And himself is Prophet Isa, he will look like the same man he did when he lived on Earth so long ago. 


Prophets of God are known to be Muslims (Wa ana minal muslimiin), those that submitted themselves to the will of God, in Islam. So in essence Jesus is viewed as a muslim. That was his true nature according to Islam.

There are known to be reliable traditions amongst the many fabricated hadiths regarding the descent of Mahdi. In some narrations, Jesus will be praying behind the Imam (Mahdi).

The religion of Islam will not be abrogated by Jesus's return as the Qur'an is viewed to be the last revealed, divine book by the Muslims.


Sorry about that I meant to say that Jesus won't return as a woman, I think I was getting a little tired.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:57 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 10 2006, 04:57 AM

Didn't Muhammad say, "I am the Christ"?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:57 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 10 2006, 05:20 AM

QUOTE
Didn't Muhammad say, "I am the Christ"?


I don't recall the Prophet(saw) saying anything like that.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:57 AM

Posted by: Faatimah .. Aug 10 2006, 05:28 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Aug 9 2006 @ 10:01 AM)
faati ... you're kinda seeming like the types that think in a way that if its not in the holy book .. then it just isnt so.  like the quote of jesus saying in the new testament "this is the way ... if it wasnt i would have told ya."

you dont know what jesus truely looked like back then .. niether do i .. we can only guess.  and the pictures throughout the ages do not count.  hell he could have been black -shrug- we dunno.

personally i hope he comes back in the form of a 10 foot tall reptilian.  -nods- that would be cool. now see .. if you were to say THAT was silly ... you would be justified ... but it being silly for him to come back as a woman.  its silly for you to say its silly that he would come back as a woman.

and if he comes down from a "cloud" that cloud will have an engine and doors on it. *hint hint* 



Ummm....I donnu how you want me to respond to that. I'm Muslim and it's is not just a title its a way of life. My religion is based on the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad(saw). So in a way Yes, if its not in the Quran Sunnah or Hadith than it just isn't so. And if theirs an issue seek the advise of a scholar.

You don't seem to believe that I know what Jesus(may Allah be pleased wit him) looks like but maybe you'll believe that I know what the Anti Christ looks like and how he behaves and what he will accomplish. I believe what I believe.... whistle.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:57 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 10 2006, 07:25 AM

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 10 2006 @ 05:28 AM)
but maybe you'll believe that I know what the Anti Christ looks like and how he behaves and what he will accomplish. I believe what I believe.... whistle.gif


Islamic truthers (including Faatimah), are you aware of the Abjad notation in the Arabic and Persian languages?

I believe that the anti-Christ was a man whose name equalled 666 in the Abjad system.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:57 AM

Posted by: nike2422 Aug 10 2006, 10:43 AM

I watched an excellent video a few weeks ago. It's called The God Who Wasn't There This spring I read the book The Key to Solomon's Key by Lon Milo Duquette. In the wake of all of the banter on this thread about what Jesus will look like or what gender Jesus will be when he returns, may I offer up the conclusions of this video and book.

In The God Who Wasn't There The following are explored:

* The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus

* The Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults (Mithra, Osiris, Dionysis)

* Contemporary Christians are largely ignorant of the origins of their religion

* Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes

* And God simply isn't there

In other words, Jesus never actually existed. What historical records exist outside of the bible? None. Do you know why much of the scriptures written about Jesus are not included in the Canon? Because it's the stuff of fantasies and tall tales and would make it obvious to intelligent people that the story of Jesus is just a story.

In The Key to Solomon's Key Lon Milo DuQuette discusses the origins of Masonic mysteries and the legacy handed down from the Knights Templar. I'm sure you know about the 9 knights in the 12 century CE who went to Jerusalem to start an order of knights to protect pilgrims in the Holy Land. They asked for the land the Temple once stood on, then settled in for seven years and no one saw or heard from them during that time. They certainly didn't protect any pilgrims while they were there, but there were already orders of knights in the area doing that.

DuQuette's book asks the question, what did the Knights Templar find there after seven years? After their stint in the holy land, they packed up and went all the way to Scotland and established "The Poor Knights of the Temple" They continued on their mission of "protecting" pilgrims in the holy land; securing valuables for pilgrims and loaning money, eventually developing a very lucrative usury business until their violent end in the 14th century.

DuQuette's research to answer the question what did the Knights find or learn about the Temple Mount revealed a startling discovery. It's most likely the Knights found ABOSULTELY NOTHING at the Temple Mount. No treasure, no ark of the covenant, in fact ... NO TEMPLE. What historical evidence do we have that Moses existed. The Bible. What historical evidence do we have that King David or Solomon existed? The Bible. Who says the Bible is true? The Bible says it's true. Think of it as the Wikipedia of the early church.

Egyptians never mention Moses in their histories. There is no mention of David or Solomon in the histories of nations surrounding Israel during the time they supposedly lived. The first historical account of the Israelites outside of the Bible comes in the 6th century BCE when the Persians, followers of Zoroastrianism at the time, encountered the Israelites being held captive in Babylon.

It wasn't until they returned to Palestine, and Ezra came out of the supposed ruins of the Temple Mount that these people heard about their "history": the stories of Moses , David, Solomon and so on ...

The Knights Templar discovered the most dangerous secret in the world, the Arameic religions are based on FICTION.

Think about it, all of the wars, all of the suffering, the torturing, the BULLSHIT going on in the Middle East right now, all of the human suffering the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions have caused for millenia! All based on fiction.

Jesus isn't coming back, he never existed in the first place!

We love to joke about swallowing the red pill and learning the truth on this website. This is the mother of all red pills.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:58 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 10 2006, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (nike2422 @ Aug 10 2006 @ 10:43 AM)
I watched an excellent video a few weeks ago. It's called The God Who Wasn't There This spring I read the book The Key to Solomon's Key by Lon Milo Duquette. In the wake of all of the banter on this thread about what Jesus will look like or what gender Jesus will be when he returns, may I offer up the conclusions of this video and book.

In The God Who Wasn't There The following are explored:

* The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus

* The Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults (Mithra, Osiris, Dionysis)

* Contemporary Christians are largely ignorant of the origins of their religion

* Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes

* And God simply isn't there

In other words, Jesus never actually existed. What historical records exist outside of the bible? None. Do you know why much of the scriptures written about Jesus are not included in the Canon? Because it's the stuff of fantasies and tall tales and would make it obvious to intelligent people that the story of Jesus is just a story.

In The Key to Solomon's Key Lon Milo DuQuette discusses the origins of Masonic mysteries and the legacy handed down from the Knights Templar. I'm sure you know about the 9 knights in the 12 century CE who went to Jerusalem to start an order of knights to protect pilgrims in the Holy Land. They asked for the land the Temple once stood on, then settled in for seven years and no one saw or heard from them during that time. They certainly didn't protect any pilgrims while they were there, but there were already orders of knights in the area doing that.

DuQuette's book asks the question, what did the Knights Templar find there after seven years? After their stint in the holy land, they packed up and went all the way to Scotland and established "The Poor Knights of the Temple" They continued on their mission of "protecting" pilgrims in the holy land; securing valuables for pilgrims and loaning money, eventually developing a very lucrative usury business until their violent end in the 14th century.

DuQuette's research to answer the question what did the Knights find or learn about the Temple Mount revealed a startling discovery. It's most likely the Knights found ABOSULTELY NOTHING at the Temple Mount. No treasure, no ark of the covenant, in fact ... NO TEMPLE. What historical evidence do we have that Moses existed. The Bible. What historical evidence do we have that King David or Solomon existed? The Bible. Who says the Bible is true? The Bible says it's true. Think of it as the Wikipedia of the early church.

Egyptians never mention Moses in their histories. There is no mention of David or Solomon in the histories of nations surrounding Israel during the time they supposedly lived. The first historical account of the Israelites outside of the Bible comes in the 6th century BCE when the Persians, followers of Zoroastrianism at the time, encountered the Israelites being held captive in Babylon.

It wasn't until they returned to Palestine, and Ezra came out of the supposed ruins of the Temple Mount that these people heard about their "history": the stories of Moses , David, Solomon and so on ...

The Knights Templar discovered the most dangerous secret in the world, the Arameic religions are based on FICTION.

Think about it, all of the wars, all of the suffering, the torturing, the BULLSHIT going on in the Middle East right now, all of the human suffering the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions have caused for millenia! All based on fiction.

Jesus isn't coming back, he never existed in the first place!

We love to joke about swallowing the red pill and learning the truth on this website. This is the mother of all red pills.



Thats another conspiracy theory.
And I don't know how many people(religious) will fall for it.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:58 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 11 2006, 01:23 AM

Shouldn't we be talking about something else? huh.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:58 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 11 2006, 02:43 AM

Nike2422, the point you raise is a valid topic of discussion.

What proof do we have that God exists?

One proof is that every building needs a builder. This marvelous structure that we inhabit would need Someone to create it.

Another is our own station. We humans are a part of nature, and nature dictates that we live on the land, walk at a certain speed, breathe air, etc. However, by some mysterious connection with the spiritual realm we are able to fly through the air, sail the trackless oceans, rapidly transit the globe. If nature had her way all these things would be impossible for humans. The fact that we can violate the strict laws of nature is a proof that God exists and that we humans connect with God to learn these supernatural wonders. This same mysterious connection allows us to penetrate the hidden mysteries such as the earth being a globe. The animals are devoid of this human faculty and would always believe that the earth is flat.

What proof do we have that the holy Prophets existed?

"If the earth is not cultivated, it becomes a jungle where useless weeds grow; but if a cultivator comes and tills the ground, it produces crops which nourish living creatures."

In this paragraph, the Cultivator is the holy Prophet. He establishes a religion that goes on to become the epitome of human civilization. Without His influence the human society would have become barbaric, filled with "thorns" and "weeds" of hate and self-interest. (recognize any of this going on today?)

Moses founded a religion that went on to become the basis of the great Greecian civilization.

Jesus founded a religion that became the great empire of Constantinople, which had architecture and science that baffled the mind. "Greek Fire" was an invention of this civilization that defended it for over 1,000 years. We still, today, don't know the formula for Greek Fire.

Muhammad founded a religion that went on to dazzle the world with its wonders. We in the West are barely aware of the great Islamic civilization because of religious and cultural prejudices. One day a complete history of the world will be written that will include ALL history and not just the propagandized version that we currently have.

The Islamic influence directly caused the barbaric Europeans to lift themselves out from the Dark Ages and into the Rennaissance.

Nike2422, I hope these comments may give you food for thought. It's a topic that we have to contemplate over time to see the truth.

[Edit: typos]

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:58 AM

Posted by: coverdws Aug 11 2006, 03:49 PM

Nike2422

I used to have similar doubt concerning the strength of the biblical tales. In fact as it has already been discussed on this thread, the gospels contained in the New testament were written well after Jesus departed, and by people who had never met him. The end result is going to be human error and contradiction.

However, try viewing Judaism, Christianity and Islam as one continuum beginning with Adam and Eve. ( BTW there is scientific DNA evidence that all men can be traced back to one origin. This is done the same exact way they can determine if some one is the biological father in a perternity case).

After Satan (Iblis) refuses to bow before Adam, the following dialogue takes place:

God (Allah): "Then get you from here, for verily, you are outcast. And verily!, My curse is upon you til the Day of Recompense."
Satan (Iblis): ""My Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the dead are resurrected>"
God (Allah):"Verily! you are of those allowed respite - till the Day of the time appointed."
Satan (Iblis):By Your Might, then I will surely mislead them all, -- except Your chosen slaves among them"
(Surah 38: 71-85)

Lets jump ahead to what happens in Eden. Adam knows that he supposed to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge "But come not near this tree or you both will be of the wrong doers" (Surah 2: 35) But Iblis continually whispers to Adam "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals" and Iblis swore by God to them both saying: Verily, I am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both" (Surah 7: 20-21) Day after day, year after year this went on until Adam and Eve eventually forgot their promise to God. Upon eating the apple, they both became ashamed and became aware of their nakedness. They repent to God who forgives them, but they can no longer stay in Eden and they are given their spot on earth.

Now, I took the time to type this story out because it clearly demonstrates our struggle and the parts that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam will play. Starting with Adam, we know there is only one God. However, Satan works on man until he forgets. Each time, God sends a new Prophet to bring man back on track. Each prophet is sent to a specific people, until the coming of the Last Prophet, Muhammed (pbuh) who is sent as a mercy to all of mankind. It is one long continuum.

From this view, infact, these prophets are not introducing new religions, but reminding us of what we keep forgettingL there is only one God. Subsequently, with each new round of transgressions, God adds or subtracts from what is permissable. The only deviation from this message comes during the period after Jesus (pbuh) and before Mohammed (pbuh) when the trinity is conceived. But that is a who other set of postings.

Also at least begining with the Torah, there is written tidings of the coming of future prophets, and even the New Testament includes very clear indications of the coming of the Final Prophet, Muhammed (pbuh). The Quran is also loaded with very clear descriptions of science which we have only discovered to be true today 1600+ years later. http://www.islam-guide.com/bqs/index.htm was written by a frenchman and has many interesting truths.

However, since you are probably not Muslim, I will direct you to a very interesting video I came across a few years ago called "the Real Mt Sinai" you can read their account at http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html. These guys are Christian and they only go by descriptions contained in the Bible. The bottom line is that they find hard visable evidence that the Exodus took place and they are able to follow the trail that Moses ( may God be plaesed with him) took based on descriptions in the Bible.

One last comment concerning the remarks about the Templars. Arab History has a lot to say about those chaps. They were extremely visioucs and there are planty of accounts written by non-Muslim scholars which indicate they were responsible for numerous attrocities during the Crusades, but we haven't actually gotten that far yet.

Sorry for the length and any mistakes are my own. I have summarized substantially and obviously there are several areas which could be expanded upon. Look for the truth, its out there.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: coverdws Aug 11 2006, 04:27 PM

Sorry I didn't actually complete my thought which is this: History is a funny thing. If it is written by men, you can guarantee that it will be biased. if you don't believe me, read either Lies my teacher Told Me or Lies Across America, both written by James Loewen. This is only a micocosm of the larger issue.

Men have been editing recorded history as long as we have been recording it. So it is not a big step to believe that many of the "stories" related in the Bible might not be found outside, why would they. By and large those historians did not believe in Jesus either. And remember that in Europe most lettered men were clergy, so they thought they were recording history, at least as they saw it.

But from an islamic standpoint: we have the Quran in its original language, just as it was revealed and recorded. So when we read it and find no contradiction or falasy, and we find many many truths that are revealed through science, it is easy to accept the stoies of the Prophets as being true. God says they are.

So just as you would trust your best friend who has never lied to you, so we put our trust in what is relayed to us from the Prophets and especially Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and the Quran because they are without falasy or contradiction.

God's history is in fact the only one we can trust, but we must be careful to validate the source who is relating it. Was it some monk who was translating Aramaic to greek or greek to italian and decided the the story would read better if a word was changed? Or is it actually handed to us from one of God's many Prophets, and most specifically Mohammed (pbuh) whose entire life was documented by his close friends and Family.

Again something which did not survive in the currenlty accepted gospels. Remeber our friends the Romans had a lot to do with this. But that is a separate topic for discussion.

Again, I apologize for any mistakes, they are mine, I am not a great scholar.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 11 2006, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (coverdws @ Aug 12 2006 @ 01:27 AM)
I apologize for any mistakes, they are mine, I am not a great scholar.


You're kickin' MY @ss!

Welcome newbie


Is it true that Mohammed was illiterate, that others wrote what he dictated?

P.S. - I am ready to dive into the birth of Islam. I don't care much about hashing out the Gospel, mostly because I was brought up Christian and none of it's news to me... but if anything comes to mind this is the time. There is something that wasn't touched on, Arius. Why did Hitler refer to the Germans as the 'Arian race'? Controversy about the trinity 700 years ago... was Jesus a man, or god?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4456874.stm

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac61?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 11 2006, 07:22 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 11 2006 @ 06:21 PM)
Is it true that Mohammed was illiterate, that others wrote what he dictated?


It would appear that every holy Prophet of God has something about Him that forms a test of faith for the generality of humankind.
Moses
slew a man in a marketplace prior to receiving Revelation and establishing the Mosaic Law.

Christ was born of a virgin, thus Jesus was looked upon as fatherless and lowly. Many people make a mistake here. Most think that the virgin birth signifies a holiness and sanctity because He was not fathered in a normal manner. Baha'is are taught that His virgin birth was purely a test of sincerity for the people of that time.

Muhammad was illiterate and considered unlettered and unlearned.

Baha'u'llah (the Founder of the Baha'i Faith).... well, I don't know what shortcoming He had but no doubt those who oppose Him will find one.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 11 2006, 08:34 PM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 10 2006 @ 03:15 AM)
QUOTE
Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode, to react violently. That is why the subject of 9/11 produces such anguish. 


Please show me where I threatened the "other's" beliefs. It was all defensive. Offensive outbursts were started by the instigators. They know who they are.

The way Islam is approached is analogous to the way people "first" approach 9/11 on this forum: Skeptical.

B)

Sinewy, I wasn't talking toward you. This is really the crux of it. Read what I posted and it should be clear. "Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode".

The big problem is belief systems. They are based largely on propoganda. That is the reason for this thread.

I'm ready to learn about the birth of Islam.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 11 2006, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 11 2006 @ 02:21 PM)
Is it true that Mohammed was illiterate, that others wrote what he dictated?





Yes, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 11 2006, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 11 2006 @ 08:34 PM)
QUOTE
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 10 2006, 03:15 AM]
QUOTE
Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode, to react violently. That is why the subject of 9/11 produces such anguish. 


Please show me where I threatened the "other's" beliefs. It was all defensive. Offensive outbursts were started by the instigators. They know who they are.

The way Islam is approached is analogous to the way people "first" approach 9/11 on this forum: Skeptical.

B)

Sinewy, I wasn't talking toward you. This is really the crux of it. Read what I posted and it should be clear. "Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode".

The big problem is belief systems. They are based largely on propoganda. That is the reason for this thread.

I'm ready to learn about the birth of Islam.


I apologize then. I saw it from a generalized point of view. That is all. I didn't see any harm in my feedback. This is a forum and things can be interpreted from so many angles.

thumbsup.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 05:59 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 11 2006, 08:51 PM

Where were we in this thread officially?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:00 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 11 2006, 10:47 PM

Prophet Muhammad(saw)
First
Revelation

The commencement(of Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Prophet was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had dream but it turned out to be true and clear as bright as daylight. Then he began to prefer seclusion, so he used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship Allah continuously for many nights before going back to his family to take the necessary provisions. He would come back to his wife Khadija again to take his provisions, until one day he recieved the guidance while in the cave of Hira.

An angel, Gabriel, came to him and asked him to read. Muhammad said "I do not know how to read". The Prophet added, "Then the angel held me down and presssed me so hard I felt distressed. Then he released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, 'I do not know how to read'. There upon he held me again and presssed me for the second time until I felt distressed. He then released me and asked me to read but again I replied. 'I do not know how to read'. Thereupon he held me for the third time and pressed me till I got distresssed, and then he released me and said, 'Read, in the name of your Lord who has created all, has created man out of a clot, Read! And your Lord is the most generous. Who has taught by the pen, has taught man that which he knew not.'" (ch96:1-5)

Then Muhammad(saw) returned home trembleing from that experience, he camae upon his wife Khadija and said "Cover me!, Cover me!" She covered him and once a little relieved from that which shocked and frightened him, he said to Khadija. "O Khadija(ra) What is wrong with me? I was afraid something horrible would happen to me. Then he told her what happened. Khadija said" Nay, But recieve the good tidings! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you, for by Allah, you keep good relations with you Kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, entertain you guest generously and assist those who are stricken with calamities." Khadija athan took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said " O my cousin, listen to what Muhammad is going to say." Waraqa said " O my nephew what have you seen?" The Prophet(saw) then described to him what he had seen. Waraqa then said " This is the same angel who was sent to Moses."

------will finish later-----

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:00 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 12 2006, 01:04 AM

-----okey dokey-------

"The Prophet(saw) said will these people drive me out?" Waraqa said"Yes, for nobody brought the like of what you have brought, but was treated with hostility. If I were to remain alive till your day, than I would support you strongly." Soon after Waraqa died and the revelations were paused while the Prophet(saw) grieved his loss.

Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah: While the Prophet(saw) was talking about the period of pause in revelation, he said in his narration: "Once while I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and to my suprise, the same Ange; as had visited me in the cave of Hira. He was between sky and earth. I became afraid, and went home and said Wrap me, wrap me!" So they covered him and then Allah revealed:
O you, wrapped up! Arise and deliver thy warning! and your Lord do you magnify.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:00 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 12 2006, 01:21 AM

QUOTE
=Faatimah @ Aug 11 2006, 10:47 PM] Prophet Muhammad(saw)
First
Revelation

The commencement(of Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Prophet was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had dream but it turned out to be true and clear as bright as daylight. Then he began to prefer seclusion, so he used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship Allah continuously for many nights before going back to his family to take the necessary provisions. He would come back to his wife Khadija again to take his provisions, until one day he recieved the guidance while in the cave of Hira.

An angel, Gabriel, came to him and asked him to read. Muhammad said "I do not know how to read". The Prophet added, "Then the angel held me down and presssed me so hard I felt distressed. Then he released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, 'I do not know how to read'. There upon he held me again and presssed me for the second time until I felt distressed. He then released me and asked me to read but again I replied. 'I do not know how to read'. Thereupon he held me for the third time and pressed me till I got distresssed, and then he released me and said, 'Read, in the name of your Lord who has created all, has created man out of a clot, Read! And your Lord is the most generous. Who has taught by the pen, has taught man that which he knew not.'" (ch96:1-5)

Then Muhammad(saw) returned home trembleing from that experience, he camae upon his wife Khadija and said "Cover me!, Cover me!" She covered him and once a little relieved from that which shocked and frightened him, he said to Khadija. "O Khadija(ra) What is wrong with me? I was afraid something horrible would happen to me. Then he told her what happened. Khadija said" Nay, But recieve the good tidings! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you, for by Allah, you keep good relations with you Kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, entertain you guest generously and assist those who are stricken with calamities." Khadija athan took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said " O my cousin, listen to what Muhammad is going to say." Waraqa said " O my nephew what have you seen?" The Prophet(saw) then described to him what he had seen. Waraqa then said " This is the same angel who was sent to Moses."

------will finish later----- 



What is your source? Please give the sources there.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:00 AM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 12 2006, 01:35 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 11 2006 @ 06:21 PM)
Is it true that Mohammed was illiterate, that others wrote what he dictated?


Muhammad was known as an `Ummi (illiterate) prophet.

It is mentioned in the Qur'an, chapter 29, verse 48:

“And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.”

Elsewhere in the Qur'an:

“Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel”

Interestingly, if one wishes to dive further into this, one can validate this in previous scriptures mentioned in the verse (Torah, Tawrat in `Arabic and `Injil, `Arabic for Gospel).

I found this in Isaiah 29:12:

“And the book is delivered to him that is not learned.”

There were reports that he learned how to read and write after the revelations came down. The majority and mainstream opinion is taken from the above quotations

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:00 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 12 2006, 04:09 AM

Faatimah, you might want to say God instead of Allah in your posts because I know there are a lot of Islamic hating posters who will start saying that He is different from God. Just thought I'd let you know. wink.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:01 AM

Posted by: zootalures Aug 12 2006, 04:12 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 12 2006 @ 04:09 AM)
Faatimah, you might want to say God instead of Allah in your posts because I know there are a lot of Islamic hating posters who will start saying that He is different from God. Just thought I'd let you know.  


Or maybe G-d, just to be on the safe side... [laugh.gif holding US Flag Emoticon]

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:01 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 12 2006, 08:40 AM

...but when do we get to the latest world religion -- the Baha'i Faith.

(are we there yet?)

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:01 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 12 2006, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 12 2006 @ 05:45 AM)
I apologize then...


No need to !

QUOTE
Where were we in this thread officially?


If anyone wants to kick in anything from the time of Christ - or, I also think it might be good for someone to give us all a nice post about the persecution of the Christians and Jews by the Romans in the centuries before Constantine...

And since this whole thing about whether the Islamic God is the same god as the Christian God or not keeps coming up,

The Council of Nicea !?

I'm not interested in arguing about which god is who's god or who's god is the real god, but I'm plenty interested in looking at WHY we argue about it.

Here's a decent article about the Council of Nicea...

http://www.probe.org/content/view/790/91/


Around the time of Constantine there was a lot of arguing about whether Jesus was the son of god and a man, or if he was God - that is, they argued about the validity and the meaning of the "Trinity". The leader of the sect that promoted the Trinity view was Athanasius, Arius promoted the view that the father and son were separate entities. P.S. when Hitler talked about the Arian race, I'm pretty sure the word is traced back to the Arians, or the religious sect that followed the theories of Arius (refered to as a "presbyter" from Libya). I'm kind of curious as to why Hitler refered to the Germans as the Arian race (!?). I always thought the distinction had to do something with blue eyes and blond hair. Looks like it was about religion, distinquishing the Presbyterian Germans from the Roman Catholics and Jews of Europe.

Also, I found it interesting the part about different bishops being repeatedly banned and then reinstated through the years for their beliefs regarding the trinity - reminded me of the battles here on this forum with various skeptics, no-planers, etc. haha.


QUOTE
...but when do we get to the latest world religion -- the Baha'i Faith.

(are we there yet?)


I don't know anything about the Baha'i faith. When did it come about?

Originally, I wanted to limit this to Christianity, Juadaeism and Islam - simply because it is these religions that are relavant to the milleniums long fight over the holy land, and thus related to 9/11 and the coming-to-a-theatre-near-you-soon WWIII.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:01 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 12 2006, 05:29 PM

This is jumping ahead a little bit, but it's something I've been looking into a little bit myself recently and I wanted to post these two links while I'm looking at them - the Rothschilds are Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews by the way... ancient Khazar is part of modern Khazakistan.

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html

http://www.kulanu.org/khazaria/kazar_return.html

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:01 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 12 2006, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 12 2006 @ 01:29 PM)
This is jumping ahead a little bit, but it's something I've been looking into a little bit myself recently and I wanted to post these two links while I'm looking at them - the Rothschilds are Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews by the way... ancient Khazar is part of modern Khazakistan. 

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html

http://www.kulanu.org/khazaria/kazar_return.html 


I heard about the Rothschilds. Aren't they behind the Illuminati and Freemasonry?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:01 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 13 2006, 01:30 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 12 2006 @ 05:16 PM)
QUOTE
...but when do we get to the latest world religion -- the Baha'i Faith.

(are we there yet?)


I don't know anything about the Baha'i faith. When did it come about?

Originally, I wanted to limit this to Christianity, Juadaeism and Islam - simply because it is these religions that are relavant to the milleniums long fight over the holy land, and thus related to 9/11 and the coming-to-a-theatre-near-you-soon WWIII.


----------------------------------------------------------------
"Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp." (Baha'i Scripture)
----------------------------------------------------------------

The people of the previous religion denied Moses. He said, "And the LORD said unto Moses: 'How long will this people despise Me? and how long will they not believe in Me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?" (Torah, Bamidbar)

The Jews denied Christ, yet He said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me." (King James Bible John 14:6)

The Jews and the Christians denied Muhammad, yet He said, "The true believers are those only who believe in God and His Apostle (Muhammad)" (Koran,Sura 49 The Apartments)

The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims deny Baha'u'llah as the Promised One, yet He said, "No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

Anybody see a pattern here?

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:02 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 13 2006, 01:56 AM

The Baha'i Faith, a brief summary

The Revelation proclaimed by Bahá'u'lláh, His followers believe, is divine in origin, all-embracing in scope, broad in its outlook, scientific in its method, humanitarian in its principles and dynamic in the influence it exerts on the hearts and minds of men. The mission of the Founder of their Faith is to proclaim that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is continuous and progressive, that the Founders of all past religions, though different in the non-essential aspects of their teachings, "abide in the same Tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech and proclaim the same Faith." His Cause, they have already demonstrated, stands identified with, and revolves around, the principle of the organic unity of mankind as representing the consummation of the whole process of human evolution. This final stage in this stupendous evolution, they assert, is not only necessary but inevitable, that it is gradually approaching, and that nothing short of the celestial potency with which a divinely ordained Message can claim to be endowed can succeed in establishing it.

The Bahá'í Faith
recognizes the unity of God and of His Prophets,
upholds the principle of an unfettered search after truth,
condemns all forms of superstition and prejudice,
teaches that the fundamental purpose of religion is to promote concord and harmony,
that it must go hand-in-hand with science,
and that it constitutes the sole and ultimate basis of a peaceful, an ordered and progressive society.
It inculcates the principle of equal opportunity, rights and privileges for both sexes,
advocates compulsory education,
abolishes extremes of poverty and wealth,
exalts work performed in the spirit of service to the rank of worship,
recommends the adoption of an auxiliary international language,
and provides the necessary agencies for the establishment and safeguarding of a permanent and universal peace.
Born about the middle of the nineteenth century in darkest Persia, assailed from its infancy by the forces of religious fanaticism, the Faith has, notwithstanding the martyrdom of its Forerunner, the repeated banishments of its Founder, the almost life-long imprisonment of its chief Promoter and the cruel death of no less than twenty thousand of its devoted followers, succeeded in diffusing quietly and steadily its spirit throughout both the East and the West. Its followers come from more than 2,000 different tribal, racial, and ethnic groups and live in 236 countries and dependent territories and has over time obtained from the ecclesiastical and civil authorities in various lands written affirmations that recognize its independent religious status.

http://bahai.org

I hope this helps to put the Baha'i Faith into an historical and contemporary context.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:02 AM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 13 2006, 02:25 AM

I cannot believe in God having been manifested through His prophets and messengers. I believe Almighty God is above all.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:02 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 13 2006, 01:53 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 13 2006 @ 02:25 AM)
I cannot believe in God having been manifested through His prophets and messengers.  I believe Almighty God is above all.


Yes, GreatMuslim10, "He is God". He is omnipotent and all-powerful. This is why Bahá’ís don’t believe in Satan. Nothing can exist but that it exists at God’s pleasure. Satan is simply the evil side of humankind. We have the free will to choose to do good things or to do evil things. If we choose the good, we become ever more saintly. If we choose the evil, we become ever more satanic.

The “Manifestations” are as mirrors that reflect the light of the Sun. The Sun does not descend into the mirror but still the mirror reflects the light, the heat, the intensity of the Sun.

In this sense, the mirror can proclaim "I am the Sun" and it would speak the truth because we see a perfect reflection of the disc, the heat and the light of the sun. And if the mirror, with regard to its separateness and individuality, were to claim to not be the Sun, it too would be true. Thus, apparent paradoxes in religious texts can be explained (by the Holy Ones) to be both factual and logical.
---------------------------------------------
The Bahá’í Faith is relevant to both this thread and to the Truth community in general because it teaches that this process of disintegration that we are currently experiencing is part of an organic process of eventual global unity.

Humankind has evolved ever-widening circles of unity over thousands of years. We have recognized the unity of the family, then the tribe, the city state and the nation. Now we need to complete the process of unification by recognizing the oneness of humankind.

It’s not going to be easy. The despicable barbarism accompanying the lead up to the next global catastrophe is painful. The catastrophe itself will be globally devastating.

But if we look to the larger view we will recognize this hardship and suffering as the birth pangs of the Christ-promised peace on earth. This will give us strength to endure and to remain positive in spite of our difficulties.
---------------------------------------------

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:02 AM

Posted by: coverdws Aug 13 2006, 04:32 PM

Wow, that really sucked, I just lost my post into the ether. I'll try and recreate it:

Let's take a step back: I think we should have a look it the transition from Jesus to Christ and the events leading upto and including the council of Nicea. Ultimately, these events are at the root of the disagreement concerning the Christian and Muslim "version" of God.

If we all ascert that there is one God (regardless of whether we agree that He is the Same). There must be a continuity in his message.

There is a hadith in Islam (I'll paraphrase) that the Jews will separate into 71 sects, the Christians will separate into 72 sects, and the Muslims will separate into 73. Whether or not you are Muslim, I think we can all see the truth in this statement. The actual hadith is longer but for the sake of our discussion this will do.

There is another Hadith which states that if we do not fulfill our obligations to God, he will replace us with another people who will. ( I will provide the source unless someone can provide it more quickly). God has destroyed entire cities / peoples for their transgressions and unwillingness to repent. The account of Noah springs immediately to mind, but there are others.

Just taking these two statements (Hadith) and applying them to the historical information we have on our religions, we should be able to have an intelligible discussion on where things are consistent and where things diverge.

In my mind, God is ultimately Fair and Just, God is Truth without error. He is also infinitely mericful to those who turn to Him in open repentance. God is certainly not limited to these few attributes, they are just the ones that I chose as relevent to this line of thought.

I welcome everyone comments and any mistake are my own. I think that everyone has doen a very good job of keeping this thread free of insult. remember that there is no compulsion in religion.

PS, my other post was better, but this was the best I could do.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:02 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 13 2006, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (coverdws @ Aug 14 2006 @ 01:32 AM)
PS, my other post was better, but this was the best I could do.


Haha, I hate it when that happens

QUOTE
Let's take a step back: I think we should have a look it the transition from Jesus to Christ and the events leading upto and including the council of Nicea. Ultimately, these events are at the root of the disagreement concerning the Christian and Muslim "version" of God.


What exactly are "these events" ? It'd be great if you could elaborate

If you indulge me, an analogy can be made between the centuries after Christ and the truth movement now. Obviously truthers aren't being fed to the lions (yet!), but there is persecution going on of a sort, suppression actually, if you think about Kevin Barrett, Charlie Sheen, hit pieces in the media, infiltration of truther sites by shills etc. Where the analogy really can be made, is that the Christians were forced to go underground, get their act together, and figure out what it was exactly that they believed and how to get the word out. Through that process 2 major sects emerged that couldn't make ammends with each other - that is, how to interpret the idea of the "trinity". ...Not unlike the different sects that have emerged in the truth movement, the no-planer controversy immediately comes to mind.

Constantine was like a forum administrator that said to everyone, stop all this bickering, lets have a council and decide once and for all what version of this religion we are going to make official...

Anyway that's my take on it.

(P.S. Where are the Christians? Plenty to touch on - the writing of the Gospels? Paul and the beginings of the Church? the persecution of the Christians? is there archeological evidence that Jesus lived? This is your chance - we are quickly approaching Mohammed...)

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:02 AM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 13 2006, 06:03 PM

A peek into the future - (of this thread, if it doesn't die)

There are, in my mind, several pertinent questions that will hopefully come into focus - I'm bringing them up now because if you aren't careful you'll miss important information that can shed light on how everyone decides to answer these questions for themselves. Not that it's all that important either way, the world will keep spinning (out of control!?) nomatter what people think or think about. But, these to me are the pertinent questions -

Do the Jewish people have a right to live in Palestine? Do the Palestinians have a right to live in Palestine? Do Americans claim any right to any moral high ground when they stole their continent from the Indians? Can Americans just accept that they are and always have been imperialists, that the current campaign to paint Muslims as terrorists is no different that the campaign to paint Indians as savages? What is the basis of the Jewish claim to Palestine - an ancient promise from God? Do Muslims, who share religious history with the Jews and ostensibly believe in the same god, accept the validity of this pact between God and the Jews? Can the Jewish population in Israel trace their roots to the original Israelites, or are they nearly all of Khazar and Spanish decent, having no real relation to the Israelites other than the fact that their ancestors adopted that religion? Or is there evidence that the Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews were in fact descended from the Israelites? Or does it even matter? Is it the "pact with God" that makes the claim valid? Or does "might make right" and Israel played their cards right and the Palestinians screwed up (bad leadership etc.) and that's the way the cookie crumbles? Why is President Bush, a proclaimed devout Christian, surrounded by a team of Zionist policy makers? Was a pact made between the American religious right and the Zionists to work together to wrest the holy land from Muslims? Why are these 2 sects seemingly in bed together?

Please don't anyone respond to any of that - just keep it in the back of your mind as we plow though the centuries...

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:03 AM

Posted by: coverdws Aug 13 2006, 07:21 PM

QUOTE
What exactly are "these events" ? It'd be great if you could elaborate


Of relevance:

Who was Jesus and what was he teaching. (responses should be interesting)
Who were the apostles
Who was Paul of Tarsus
What about Barnabus

On a side note, The Arius that I am familiar with did not accept the trinity. He was born in Libia and he was a presbyter. He was the known leader of the Apostolic Church which followed the strict teachings of Jesus as he lived.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:03 AM

Posted by: Cary Aug 13 2006, 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 13 2006 @ 01:03 PM)
A peek into the future - (of this thread, if it doesn't die)

There are, in my mind, several pertinent questions that will hopefully come into focus - I'm bringing them up now because if you aren't careful you'll miss important information that can shed light on how everyone decides to answer these questions for themselves. Not that it's all that important either way, the world will keep spinning (out of control!?) nomatter what people think or think about. But, these to me are the pertinent questions -

Do the Jewish people have a right to live in Palestine? Do the Palestinians have a right to live in Palestine? Do Americans claim any right to any moral high ground when they stole their continent from the Indians? Can Americans just accept that they are and always have been imperialists, that the current campaign to paint Muslims as terrorists is no different that the campaign to paint Indians as savages? What is the basis of the Jewish claim to Palestine - an ancient promise from God? Do Muslims, who share religious history with the Jews and ostensibly believe in the same god, accept the validity of this pact between God and the Jews? Can the Jewish population in Israel trace their roots to the original Israelites, or are they nearly all of Khazar and Spanish decent, having no real relation to the Israelites other than the fact that their ancestors adopted that religion? Or is there evidence that the Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews were in fact descended from the Israelites? Or does it even matter? Is it the "pact with God" that makes the claim valid? Or does "might make right" and Israel played their cards right and the Palestinians screwed up (bad leadership etc.) and that's the way the cookie crumbles? Why is President Bush, a proclaimed devout Christian, surrounded by a team of Zionist policy makers? Was a pact made between the American religious right and the Zionists to work together to wrest the holy land from Muslims? Why are these 2 sects seemingly in bed together?

Please don't anyone respond to any of that - just keep it in the back of your mind as we plow though the centuries... 



Sorry Sanders. I know you said don't respond to your post, but I am anyway. LOL Not to argue with you on any of this, and I haven't read this thread. I don't do "religion." As Jesse Ventura is quoted as saying, "Organized religion is for weak minded people," and tend to stay way clear of religious debates.

But, (here's my BIG BUTT) Zionists got Israel going, and are using the Jewish people as victims, AGAIN, in their quest for global domination. It ain't about Jews vs. Muslims at all. It's about Zionists (bankers mostly) achieving their agenda, which only uses Judaism as a pretext. The "anti-Semite" and "Holocaust" card plays well. Zionists were in bed with Hitler. The Holocaust was an event that the Zionists used to get the Jewish state of Israel founded, post WW II. Then the state of Israel could be used to foment all kinds of bad sh*t to bring about WW III and "order out of chaos" a new one world government and one world banking system. The whole scheme of things uses "religion" as a pretext to further political agenda, plain and simple.

Okay, I sh*t in the lunch kit and I won't be back on this thead because I tend to puke around religious debates. For those who want or need religion to get through their day, fine. Every religion should have an equal opportunity to sway the masses, but it's all bullshit. No offense to the religious reading or posting here. Sorry, if this disrupts the thread, and please feel free to delete this post.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:04 AM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 14 2006, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Cary @ Aug 13 2006 @ 10:01 PM)
"Organized religion is for weak minded people,"




Cary, I'm a Baha'i and I believe in our Creator.

However, the god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in either.

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:04 AM

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 14 2006, 02:50 AM

QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 13 2006 @ 10:50 PM)
Cary, how could you say religion is fine and then conclude that religion is bullshit. You do realize a good amount of people active of this forum are of a religion. You can be informative without being offensive. 


I wouldn't worry about it. By the way Daniels, you said that the god Cary doesn't believe in, you don't either. Cary's atheist. Cary doesn't believe in any god

Posted by: librarian Nov 15 2006, 06:04 AM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:29 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:31 PM)
So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert. 


Yep, that's where it all started, and to this day the Jews believe they are superior as a result. When in reality, they are brothers of the Arabs, cousins anyway. Same root and source, in a promise.

In quantum reality the only thing that's real is like a promise and a promise isn't a promise unless it is kept, and the glue which holds the committment in place with lasting integrity is love. That is how the Bible is read, as the story of a divine romance. I don't know about the Koran, but it sounds a little more trible and rule driven, to keep people closely in line with Doctrine. Christianity then steps in as the ultimate revelation of the promise, extended to all humanity. There's an interesting type of historical tension there, which a thorough and proper interpretation of all three Religions central tenets holds the key to resolving, with increased conscious awareness on the part of everyone.

I predict that a grand lesson is being learned, which is both something very old and very new.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:24 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 14 2006, 06:17 AM

QUOTE (Sun Zoo @ Aug 14 2006 @ 12:29 AM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:31 PM)
So God told Abraham that his descendant(s)  would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant.  But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael.  Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant.  After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'.  Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert. 


Yep, that's where it all started, and to this day the Jews believe they are superior as a result. When in reality, they are brothers of the Arabs, cousins anyway. Same root and source, in a promise.

In quantum reality the only thing that's real is like a promise and a promise isn't a promise unless it is kept, and the glue which holds the committment in place with lasting integrity is love. That is how the Bible is read, as the story of a divine romance. I don't know about the Koran, but it sounds a little more trible and rule driven, to keep people closely in line with Doctrine. Christianity then steps in as the ultimate revelation of the promise, extended to all humanity. There's an interesting type of historical tension there, which a thorough and proper interpretation of all three Religions central tenets holds the key to resolving, with increased conscious awareness on the part of everyone.

I predict that a grand lesson is being learned, which is both something very old and very new.


One thing to mention though is that Sarah gave up Hagar (who was her slave) to Abraham as a wife, since she was barren. Abraham did not do impregnate her behind Sarah's back.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:24 PM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 06:36 AM

And since Abraham had sex with both his daughters, while drunk, there needn't be any moral inequivalency.. lolabove.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:24 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 14 2006, 07:29 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 14 2006 @ 04:18 AM)
...Daniels, you said that the god Cary doesn't believe in, you don't either.  Cary's atheist.  Cary doesn't believe in any god


GreatMuslim10, the god that Cary doesn't believe in is the partisan, manufactured god that takes sides with groups of people, that will come to earth one day and severely punish those who don't believe in a particular religion or sect of religion.

That's the type of god that makes sensible people into atheists.

Deep, deep down, Cary may well feel that there is a Force, a Power, an Essence that is far, far above the minds of men and our petty squablings.

Prior to becoming a Baha'i at age 21, I was an atheist. One day I was asked if I believed in God. My reply was to talk about god as a superstition that weak minded people carried with them as a crutch to get through life. I then went on to say that "If there was to be a God, a great Being that could bring this stupendous universe into existence, then you can bet your life that He would be far, far above what the religious people say about Him". Turns out I was right.

Perhaps Cary and other atheists feel the same.

I love God. I thank Him every day for his wonderful bounties to His creatures. But I don't belive that He sides with Sunnis over Shi'ahs, or Catholics over Coptics, or Christians over Muslims, etc. I think that when we seek to exalt ourselves over others we are demonstrating just how far away are from Him we really are.

I'll say it again, "The god that the atheists don't believe in, I don't believe in either."

"He is God"

PS Now that I am religious I realize that I was mistaken when I felt that religious people followed superstitions. I now know that the Great Prophets and Messengers from God inspire in us humans such awe and love that we will follow them in spite of the ridicule of those who don't believe.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:24 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 14 2006, 08:21 AM

QUOTE (Sun Zoo @ Aug 14 2006 @ 02:36 AM)
And since Abraham had sex with both his daughters, while drunk, there needn't be any moral inequivalency..   lolabove.gif  


First of all, that is not true. Second of all, Abraham only had two children and they were both males. Their names were Ishmael and Isaac. Third of all, I think you are mixing up with the Biblical story of Lot's (it is mentioned in the Bible what you said except it was Lot and not Abraham). And fourth and most important of all, Muslims and the Qur'an rejects that story of Lot getting drunk and sleeping with his two daughters anyways.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:24 PM

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 14 2006, 08:22 AM

Hey Daniels, what was your religion before you became an atheist in the first place?

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:24 PM

QUOTE
Hey Daniels, what was your religion before you became an atheist in the first place?

I had no religion.

In primary school we had "scripture" classes but they were so bad that they became the "proof" that there was no god.

It wasn't until I discovered God for real in the Baha'i Faith that I understood
that science and religion must go hand in hand,
that God loved all of us rather than just those that "went to church on Sunday",
that religion was progressive and revealed to humankind in stages,
that the religions of the world are actually all part of the ONE religion,
that religion was not about imprisoning people within a belief structure but about liberating the thoughts from superstition and a self focus,
that the various races of people are like flowers in a garden, the garden is more beautiful with a variety rather than a monoculture,
that the Return of Jesus was not going to be on a cloud (gracious God, what sort of childish spectacle do people attribute to Christ?!?) but that the "cloud" was the obscuring of the Sun of Truth, and that Persia in the middle of the 1800s represented the most clouded or veiled part of the earth.
that we would not all climb out of our graves like some B grade zombie movie but that our invisible souls ascend to the eternal spiritual realm after abandoning the body at death
that there was no Satan except the satan of self
that "heaven" and "hell" are not places but conditions of the soul
that I am not "saved" because I say that I believe in Christ or Muhammad but I am "saved" because I love God and try my best to do His will, and that is to love all humankind, even my sworn enemies.
This is a picture of the Indian Baha'i Lotus temple and the grounds around it:

]

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:25 PM

Posted by: TheTruth Aug 14 2006, 10:50 AM

QUOTE (FL2 @ Jul 28 2006 @ 04:18 PM)
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females. 


And all this time I thought the pharaoh's were males...

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:25 PM

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 03:43 PM

How comes most of you - believers - are so picky on facts and evidence regarding the 911 event and accept all this BS from religious books?

The Earth is flat, doesn't rotate around the Sun and is 6000 years old. These are facts, right? I hope so because otherwise you have blood in your hands.

In America atheists are considered WORST than muslims - They deserve to die. Oh yeah? Like the millions of Indians that Christians slaughtered before establishing their religious power?

I recommend to watch "30 days" - third episode - where an atheist goes to a christian family. Freeeaaakkkyyyy.

Anyway, I'm not against any religions. What I'm saying in that religious people should keep their faith for themselves. We'll have no more wars and f*ckers like Bush won't be elected in the future.

Just like for this 911 event, we don't know what happened 2000 years ago. We have some clues, rumors and lies. So, investigate first!!!

Anti 911 truth movements and religious people have something in common: they have been brainwashed since day 1.

Ok, that said you guys can throw stones at me.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:25 PM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 03:54 PM

It all depends on how you look at it. If you believe deeply in principals, and the ebodimement of life with spirit, then you essentially believe in God, as the "light of life" which I interpret to mean God consciousness or the most essential "I AM" of being and becoming.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:25 PM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:01 PM

The oughtness of the isness of being, that is God's will, from what is, to what shall be, from end to end and the first/last cause and the prime mover of existence. Alpha and Omega.

I believe that life is an eternally progressive recurrence wherein only the good fruit that lasts is retained and bottled up, from level to level, unto the infinite Godhead.

However, love to BE love, must express or communicate itself in action, and that is, at least in my belief, the root and source of Christianity, which is the expression of the Love of God, through a human familial relationship, where sin is a multi-generational degenerative disorder of both nature and nurture (blood and family).

If true then the implications are absolute astounding in no uncertain terms.

And we do indeed live within a quantum holographic universe in which the distinctions between mind/body and reality are very blurred and functioning relative to one indivisible NON-LOCALITY.

To me, Christianity is there to help keep us laughing like little children, when we run up smack dab against the utter absurdity, and insult, of life's injustice, for which a price must always be paid.

Read some Gurdjieff
http://www.gurdjieff.org/ and you'll understand where I am coming from about this.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:26 PM

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 04:01 PM

Hi Sun Zoo! First, I like you and your posts.. But do you really understand what you're saying? Next you'll tell me: hey, you have five fingers therefore you believe in a God, mine especially.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:26 PM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:02 PM

A rational basis for Christian faith? You bet.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:26 PM

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE
The oughtness of the isness of being, that is God's will, from what is, to what shall be, from end to end and the first/last cause and the prime mover of existence. Alpha and Omega. 




See? That's the result of a well done brainwashing process.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:26 PM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:11 PM

All I am saying in essence is this.

You, and I, are a subjective observer and are, therefore, imprisoned in a type of subjective prison, from which we cannot stand apart from ourselves and effectively measure our true worth, or lack thereof.

We are flawed. We think and do things that are out of alignment with what is perfect for us, for our happiness and satisfaction. We sin all of us.

We are also emeshed within history, entangled with the whole of it all.

Thus, we are forever doomed, if the universe is infinite (eternal recurrance) to be locked up in a self reinforcing subjective experience of history (namely, family history, as the origin and source of our existence, from the individual to the collective) wherein we may, and often do, delude ourselves, that we know just who we really are, since "neurosis is always the substitute, for legitamet suffering".

To be "treated" to the core in terms of this, we require a demonstration, and a proclamation (model of leadership). Without the model we are lost. With it, we have a guiding light, an ideal.

Jesus was either a madman, a bad man, or, he was a good and honest man. However, given what he said, and said about himself specifically, and his role in relation to us, we are forced to conclude that he was entirely sane, and entirely good.

In my view, it's an inescapable conclusion, and a very good one, since it releases us from the bondage of sin and evil, at a point in time and history who's purpose was to be generative of our next step up in human evolution - rising conscious awareness about just how Good God is, and how good he is to us as a wholly Loving God - asigning to us in the process, a value of infinite measure, as a true prodigal son.

I see in the parables, levels of depth in the myth and metaphor and the archetype or story, which are almost unfathonable and unfathonably beautiful.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:26 PM

Posted by: .... Aug 14 2006, 04:11 PM

To be is to be percieved. In short, we're all f*cked. We need help from a source greater than self. Self is not and cannot be God.

In the end, the athiest must and is forced to argue, for his/her non-existence.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:27 PM

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 05:42 PM

QUOTE
In the end, the athiest must and is forced to argue, for his/her non-existence. 


That's the other way around, dude. Prove that your God does exist. Show me the evidence. So far what we know is that your God is suck at almost everything. He can't even control the weather - Look at all the death from the tsunamis and hurricanes !!! Almighty, huh?

Anyway, religion is about money and power, and Bush knows that so well. Adding a religious comment on the dollar bill ( in 1953 ) couldn't be more self explanatory.

Oh well, I'm off now wink.gif

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:27 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 14 2006, 07:15 PM

QUOTE (Sun Zoo @ Aug 14 2006 @ 04:29 AM)
I don't know about the Koran, but it sounds a little more trible and rule driven, to keep people closely in line with Doctrine. Christianity then steps in as the ultimate revelation of the promise, extended to all humanity. 



Ok back...what's new?

This caught my eye.

SunZoo you mean "tribal" right, not trible? Care to establish the Qur`an being tribal only?

You then mention that Christianity (Pauline) being an extension to humanity. Jesus preached a renaissance form of Judaism. Paul who never met Jesus in flesh established the religion, Christianity, to humanity based on a vision. Along with that and the Gospels being conglomerated and formulated centuries later, authenticity becomes the issue. I will stop here, as I don't want to create a discord.

Islam was a religion meant for all of humanity. There are proofs in the Qur`an to establish this. Unlike Jesus, Muhammad's teachings were preserved during his lifetime. Hence, abrogation was not needed to further this religion.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:27 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 14 2006, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (Cary @ Aug 14 2006 @ 07:01 AM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 13 2006 @ 01:03 PM)
Do the Jewish people have a right to live in Palestine?  Do the Palestinians have a right to live in Palestine?  Do Americans claim any right to any moral high ground when they stole their continent from the Indians?  Can Americans just accept that they are and always have been imperialists, that the current campaign to paint Muslims as terrorists is no different that the campaign to paint Indians as savages?  What is the basis of the Jewish claim to Palestine - an ancient promise from God?  Do Muslims, who share religious history with the Jews and ostensibly believe in the same god, accept the validity of this pact between God and the Jews?  Can the Jewish population in Israel trace their roots to the original Israelites, or are they nearly all of Khazar and Spanish decent, having no real relation to the Israelites other than the fact that their ancestors adopted that religion?  Or is there evidence that the Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews were in fact descended from the Israelites?  Or does it even matter?  Is it the "pact with God" that makes the claim valid?  Or does "might make right" and Israel played their cards right and the Palestinians screwed up (bad leadership etc.) and that's the way the cookie crumbles?  Why is President Bush, a proclaimed devout Christian, surrounded by a team of Zionist policy makers?  Was a pact made between the American religious right and the Zionists to work together to wrest the holy land from Muslims?  Why are these 2 sects seemingly in bed together? 


...But, (here's my BIG BUTT) Zionists got Israel going, and are using the Jewish people as victims, AGAIN, in their quest for global domination. It ain't about Jews vs. Muslims at all. It's about Zionists (bankers mostly) achieving their agenda, which only uses Judaism as a pretext. The "anti-Semite" and "Holocaust" card plays well. Zionists were in bed with Hitler. The Holocaust was an event that the Zionists used to get the Jewish state of Israel founded, post WW II. Then the state of Israel could be used to foment all kinds of bad sh*t to bring about WW III and "order out of chaos" a new one world government and one world banking system. The whole scheme of things uses "religion" as a pretext to further political agenda, plain and simple.

...Sorry, if this disrupts the thread, and please feel free to delete this post.


No prob -

I basically agree with all of the above - (notice, all of what I touced on was posed as a question.) But even if the world is dancing at the end of the "Zionists banker's" puppet strings, does that let everyone off the hook? If you talk to Americans about the slaughter of the American Indian tribes they will say, that was a different time, Americans aren't like that now. But Americans back then were played by both State and Federal propoganda campains to paint Indians as savages to make people go out of their way to kill them. Many indian tribes violently resisted encroachment onto their lands, but the authorities (for example the Governor of Georgia in the case of the Cherokees, who were a peaceful tribe) actively caused trouble to force confrontation. Sound familiar? Americans now are falling for the same ruse. There are always two bad guys - the puppeteers, and 'ignorance' - ignorance of the fact that people are being played, and their own ignorance of the people they are being conditioned to regard as a "savage", or a "terrorist".

I mentioned the Khazar issue specifically because the Zionist bankers you refered to are Ashkenazi, or Khazar jews. There is some controversy as to whether the descendents of this people, who outnumber all the other jews in Israel, have any genetic claim to the holy land - and whether that's even relevant or not is even debatable. The incompetence of various Palestinian leaders is also a factor in us winding up in the place we're in, so I mentioned that too. Why the Zionist Neocon cabal chose a Christian fundamentalist to head up their administration is an amusement to me, it's bizarre.

In sum, Carey, I love asking these questions - talking about them leads to clarity. I'm quite aware of the scenario you outlined, that religion is being pitched against religion at the whim of powerful banking dynasties - and - in my opinion - their strongest weapon is our ignorance. That's why I started this thread I guess. (P.S. I am not religious.)

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:27 PM

Posted by: Sanders Aug 14 2006, 08:41 PM

Hey Sun Zoo - nice sig

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:27 PM

Posted by: Cary Aug 14 2006, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 13 2006 @ 11:18 PM)
QUOTE (Faatimah @ Aug 13 2006 @ 10:50 PM)

Cary, how could you say religion is fine and then conclude that religion is bullshit. You do realize a good amount of people active of this  forum are of a religion. You can be informative without being offensive.


I wouldn't worry about it. By the way Daniels, you said that the god Cary doesn't believe in, you don't either. Cary's atheist. Cary doesn't believe in any god


Okay, I'm back. LOL I lied about not coming back. Sue me. This is the second time I've even been on this thread. When did I say I don't believe in God? Never did. All I said was "Organized religion is for weak minded people," a quote from Jesse Ventura.

It's the ORGANIZED religions that I have a problem with. No, I'm not an atheist. I believe in God or a Creator. We didn't just show up out of nothing.

ORGANIZED religions are filled with dogma used to control the masses is the point of my Jesse Ventura quote. That's all. Don't your panties up in a wad. Look at all the hate and genocide that has been committed "in the name of God." God, Jesus, Mohammed, whomever would kick the sh*t out of the people who have committed genocide in their name if they were here and gave much of a sh*t. They don't give a sh*t while it's going on, is my take. They're just laughing their ass off about the bullshit that occurs in their name and are waiting for these goobers to show up in the after life. Payback is a bitch.

Sanders, love your posts. I'll try to stay the hell outta here. ORGANIZED religion is one topic I get into trouble with all the time. LMAO.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:28 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 12:08 AM

QUOTE (razorback @ Aug 14 2006 @ 03:43 PM)
Anti 911 truth movements and religious people have something in common: they have been brainwashed since day 1.

Ok, that said you guys can throw stones at me. 



Razorback, I would never throw stones at you for expressing your sincere beliefs. Your beliefs are to be respected, whatever they may be, and your right to express them is to be upheld.

The comments you made have much validity. There are many superstitions in the religions, particularly where people have taken the scriptures literally. In the Baha'i Faith science and religion must go hand in hand. Therefore, those statements in the scriptures that oppose an intelligent and scientific mind need to be understood as parables and metaphors.

It is said that Jesus will return on a cloud. Baha'is understand this to mean that He will come to a part of the earth that is "clouded" from the "Sun" of enlightenment. We believe that He did return in 1844, to Persia, which was a backward country of great superstition, corruption and tyranny. Of course we don't believe that the physical body of Christ returned but that the essential Reality of Christ appeared in another Messenger from the Unknowable Essence.

I would urge you to maintain your skepticism for religion. I feel that for too long sons have followed their fathers religion with little thought for what is Truth. The first principle of the Baha'i Faith is independent investigation of Truth. You appear to have a good grasp of that principle, both in your views on religion and as a truther.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:28 PM

Posted by: razorback Aug 15 2006, 03:00 AM

Thanks Daniels.

I'll keep your post in mind next time I meet one of my great neighbors.

The old woman believes that Arnold (The Terminator) is the Anti-Christ, the other one wanted to take our 4 years old to her Church in order to "save" her and the third one (a muslim) can't look at my wife because women are dirty, he finally admitted it to me.

And when I go to work "I shall not forget that we are running this business for the love of GOD".

Yes, I live in Texas. Yeeeeeeeeehhhhhawwwwww.

I'm soooo gonna go back to the civilization soon. haha.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:28 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 04:40 AM

QUOTE (razorback @ Aug 15 2006 @ 03:00 AM)
Thanks Daniels.

I'll keep your post in mind next time I meet one of my great neighbors.

The old woman believes that Arnold (The Terminator) is the Anti-Christ, the other one wanted to take our 4 years old to her Church in order to "save" her and the third one (a muslim) can't look at my wife because women are dirty, he finally admitted it to me.

And when I go to work "I shall not forget that we are running this business for the love of GOD".

Yes, I live in Texas.  Yeeeeeeeeehhhhhawwwwww.

I'm soooo gonna go back to the civilization soon. haha. 


Gracious Razorback.

You really do live in a strange place! dunno.gif


Had a great laugh over that post. [laugh]

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:28 PM

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 15 2006, 06:13 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 13 2006 @ 01:30 AM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 12 2006 @ 05:16 PM)
QUOTE
...but when do we get to the latest world religion -- the Baha'i Faith.
(are we there yet?)


I don't know anything about the Baha'i faith. When did it come about?

Originally, I wanted to limit this to Christianity, Juadaeism and Islam - simply because it is these religions that are relavant to the milleniums long fight over the holy land, and thus related to 9/11 and the coming-to-a-theatre-near-you-soon WWIII.



----------------------------------------------------------------
]"Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp." (Baha'i Scripture)
----------------------------------------------------------------



The people of the previous religion denied Moses. He said, "And the LORD said unto Moses: 'How long will this people despise Me? and how long will they not believe in Me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?" (Torah, Bamidbar)



The Jews denied Christ, yet He said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me." (King James Bible John 14:6)



The Jews and the Christians denied Muhammad, yet He said, "The true believers are those only who believe in God and His Apostle (Muhammad)" (Koran,Sura 49 The Apartments)



The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims deny Baha'u'llah as the Promised One, yet He said, "No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)


Anybody see a pattern here?



To clarify for others:

In Islam the pattern ends with Muhammad, due to the importance of the verse in the Qur`an: "Wa Laaker-Rasulallahi wa Khataman Nabiiyiin" (33:40). This translates into: But (he is) the Apostle of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets.

There are traditions (hadith) to indicate as well to confirm that Muhammad was the last prophet.

Semantics came to redefine what "Khatam" means. Khatam means seal, finish, end. Now the Ahmadi and Qadiani movements arose and stated that it didn't indicate the finality of prophethood. An argument that they use in their literature is Jesus's return. Similarily, Orthodox Islam rejects Baha`ullah due to the seal of prophethood ending with Muhammad.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:28 PM

Posted by: Daniels August 15, 2006

QUOTE
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 15 2006, 06:13 AM)
QUOTE
QUOTE (Daniels @ Aug 13 2006, 05:16 PM)

----------------------------------------------------------------
"Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp." (Baha'i Scripture)
----------------------------------------------------------------



The people of the previous religion denied Moses. He said, "And the LORD said unto Moses: 'How long will this people despise Me? and how long will they not believe in Me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?" (Torah, Bamidbar)



The Jews denied Christ, yet He said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me." (King James Bible John 14:6)



The Jews and the Christians denied Muhammad, yet He said, "The true believers are those only who believe in God and His Apostle (Muhammad)" (Koran,Sura 49 The Apartments)



The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims deny Baha'u'llah as the Promised One, yet He said, "No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)


Anybody see a pattern here?


To clarify for others:

In Islam the pattern ends with Muhammad, due to the importance of the verse in the Qur`an: "Wa Laaker-Rasulallahi wa Khataman Nabiiyiin" (33:40). This translates into: But (he is) the Apostle of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets.

There are traditions (hadith) to indicate as well to confirm that Muhammad was the last prophet.

Semantics came to redefine what "Khatam" means. Khatam means seal, finish, end. Now the Ahmadi and Qadiani movements arose and stated that it didn't indicate the finality of prophethood. An argument that they use in their literature is Jesus's return. Similarily, Orthodox Islam rejects Baha`ullah due to the seal of prophethood ending with Muhammad.


Yes indeed, Sinewy, fellow truther and esteemed believer in our omnipotent Creator. Orthodox Islam rejects Baha'u'llah just as orthodox Christianity rejects Muhammad, orthodox Judaism rejects Christ, etc. I guess if Muslims didn't reject Baha'u'llah they'd be Baha'is. Hundreds of thousands in Iran have accepted Baha'u'llah as the Promised One but there are a couple of billion Muslims in the world.

Indeed, Baha'is accept and proclaim the truth of Muhammad's station as, "The Seal of the Prophets".

What is questioned is the interpretation of those words. As Baha'u'llah says, "...empty thyself of all learning, that thou mayest partake of My knowledge..."

If we already "know" what "The Seal of the Prophets" means then we will deny Baha'u'llah as the Promised One. However, if we accept that the verse may have meanings other than its obvious, outward meaning, then we may partake of His knowledge.

Baha'is believe that we have just been through a Great Cycle that we call the "Adamic Cycle". All of the holy Prophets from Adam up to Muhammad have been part of that Adamic Cycle of 6,000 years duration.

The next cycle is the "Cycle of Maturity" where humankind, having attained the stage of maturity, will develop as "an adult" for the next 500,000 years.

All the holy Prophets leading up Baha'u'llah, the Promised One, were prophesizing (Prophets) this Promised One, and this Great Age that we are privileged to live in.

Thus, from a Baha'i perspective, Muhammad is indeed the Seal of the Prophets because he is the last Prophet of the Adamic Cycle. He "Sealed" that Great Cycle in preparation for Baha'u'llah to open the Great Cycle of our time -- the "Cycle of Maturity" of humankind.

There is a tradition that states that all knowledge consists of 27 letters. Until the Promised One arrives only 2 letters of knowledge have been released. Once He arrives, the remaining 25 letters of knowledge will be released.

Ever wondered why our sciences have skyrocketed in the past couple of centuries?

This is a picture of part of the Arc on Mt Carmel. There are four Baha'i administrative buildings arranged in an arc. The distant building is the International Archives Building, taken from the Center for the Study of the Texts.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:28 PM

Posted by: Sanders August 15 2006


OK, I've waited a few days, no one had much to add about the 1st few centuries of Christianity so I'll cap and move on -

The Romans persecuted the Jews and Christians, fed them to the lions
Christianity flourished underground, the Roman empire waned, Constantine (the emperor at Constantinople) made Christianity the official language, held the Council of Nicea to sort out theoretical differences, the believers in the Trinity won.

I'll elaborate more on the fall of the Roman Empire to the Goths, the rise of Christianity in Europe, and the migration of the Jews outward from Israel (all important - any help would be appreciated)

We're on to Mohammed. Go guys, explain in laymans terms who Mohammed was and how Islam got started...

(BTW, I asked about the Ka'ab rites earlier, I still don't understand what that is all about...)

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:29 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 12:52 PM


ISLAM
The land of Arabia was inhabited by a barbaric and warlike tribal people who had some quite repulsive customs such as the burying alive of their firstborn daughters — which they thought to be a meritorious deed.

Muslims refer to these times prior to Muhammad as “The Days of Ignorance”.

As the holy Prophet of God always appears on earth in the most clouded and backward region, Muhammad arose in Arabia.

He faced fierce persecution by His fanatical countrymen, to the extent that He allowed His followers to use the sword in defense of the community of believers.

The Koran was dictated by Muhammad to an amanuensis and inscribed on sheep shoulder bones and velum, making it the first Holy Book to be dictated directly by the Messenger of God Himself. This is why the Koran is esteemed to be the indisputable Word of God.

Previous Holy Books were written by the followers of the Holy Prophet sometime after they were uttered by Him. This has led to mistakes creeping in. Mistakes such as where Jesus is recorded as having complained to God on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (King James Bible, Mark 15:34) According to Bahá’í belief, it is impossible for the holy Prophet of God to question the Unknowable Essence for even a moment. Therefore, it can be assumed that He was misheard and that He actually said something more in the order of, “My God, my god, how thou hast glorified Me”.

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:29 PM

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 01:02 PM


ISLAM
"...by the widespread rays of His consummate wisdom, His universal knowledge, those savage denizens of Medina and Mecca, miraculously, and in so brief a time, were drawn out of the depths of their ignorance, rose up to the pinnacles of learning, and became centers of arts and sciences and human perfections, and stars of felicity and true civilization, shining across the horizons of the world."

Posted by: librarian Nov 28 2006, 02:29 PM

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 15 2006, 01:10 PM

Christians believe that at that moment Jesus experienced total seaparation from God as the embodiment of sin, and that it is there, at that point, on ALL points, that our separation from God is removed through his sacrificial atonement offering. Most of us also believe that Jesus was also fully human as much as he was divine (filled with the holy spirit of God).

Sometimes I find is sad, and even disturbing, that people always want to put their own spin on it, and in doing so, place limits on the act itself in terms of its meaning and it's importance and significance.

Just how Jesus could take on responsibility for the sins of the world is another matter and would take some work to try to illuminate, but suffice to say, there is always a price to pay and in some things we need help from a power and source of life greater than our self.

THe cross of Christ is a gateway, where all evil became relative to the victim, and all goodness, mercy, truth and justice, the only absolutes that we can be absolutely certain of at the end of the day.

I see Jesus as God communication through humanity born of Love and the desire to see all God's children re-united in himself and one to the other.

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