Sanders, Please Address Options

[nicepants]

Sanders, in another thread you posted this paragraph...I have a few questions.

Flip that envelope over again, sharpen your pencil, and consider the near-free-fall collapse of the towers, or the odds of a passport of a hijacker landing intact in the street, or the odds that 63 of 64 passengers from flight 77 could be successfully identified by DNA (which dissintegrates at 130 degrees C) analysis and other means while the majority of the plane "vaporised", or the odds that all of the hijackers could have slipped onto the planes without their names being on the manifests, or that the Airforce and NORAD couldn't get a jet in the air, even with Andrews base only a few miles from the Pentagon, or that the Pentagon didn't have missile batteries to protect it ...

the odds of a passport of a hijacker landing intact in the street,

Lots of paper landed in the street, what are the odds of that?

or the odds that 63 of 64 passengers from flight 77 could be successfully identified by DNA (which dissintegrates at 130 degrees C)

Source for your claim that DNA dissintegrates [sic] at 130C?

or the odds that all of the hijackers could have slipped onto the planes without their names being on the manifests

Source that they were not on the manifests? (Not talking about the victim list here, talking about the manifest)

or that the Airforce and NORAD couldn't get a jet in the air, even with Andrews base only a few miles from the Pentagon

Did Andrews have any fighters on alert? (Combat-ready means that they can be deployed within 24 hours, not the same thing)

or that the Pentagon didn't have missile batteries to protect it

Source showing that the Pentagon had missile batteries to protect it?

[grizz]

lol

[Sanders]

Why are you so eager to defend the official position? Do you ACTUALLY believe it??? That Osama bin Laden and his band of merry terrorists did it? Are you SERIOUS???

The WTC was full of paper - contracts, invoices, memos - and bombs went off. So there was all this confetti. Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is how a passport made it out of the pocket of a hijacker, survived a giant fireball and floated intact to the street. Ponder this, why wasn't that passport turned into confetti as well??? (Cause it was planted to point blame at bin Laden, you numskull!)

I can't give you a source for the 130 C figure, but I read it ... years ago when I was into biology. YOU LOOK IT UP. What's your proof that I am wrong? DNA strands separate at about 110 degrees, at around 130 the individual nucleotides fall apart. These are temperatures FAR too low to "vaporise" a plane. They are moderate - indeed, DNA is very volitile - heat destroys it. That's why boiling water destroys bacteria. DUH !!!

"Source that they were not on the manifests? (Not talking about the victim list here, talking about the manifest) "

I dunnoh, this came up on a quick search -

http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/PassengerList.shtml

A manifest is just a passenger list. These are passenger lists. Official ones are hard to get ahold of, we have to rely on what CNN etc. obtained from the airlines and released. No Arab names however appear on ANY of these passenger lists. Do you know of a manifest or passenger list which has been released which includes the names of any of the hijackers?

As for Andrews, f$%k "alert status", what's it there for !?!?!? What do we pay all these taxes for !?!? Andrews AFB can't get a jet in the air in close to an hour???

"Source showing that the Pentagon had missile batteries to protect it?"

There is no source. That information is classified. Re-read how I stated that. "What are the odds". Do you think the White House has batteries of stingers on it's roof but the Pentagon is un-defended?

Sheesh. Nicepants, do you work for the government in some capacity? Or are you that daft and brainwashed? Is it your loyalty to your pals at J-ref? Whichever, you are a traitor to your country.

[Carl Bank]

Ah Nicepants... HERE you are!

I've been looking all over the forum for you
to finally hear your original handle.
Feel free to PM it to me.

I started reading around your intersting questions and
I would love to engage into some debate with you.
You seem to be honestly intersted in the events of 9/11
and I appreciate this.
You know, I am from Europe and less personally involved
in all that 9/11 stuff, but I would love to hear your opinion
on a dokumentary from Europe, where well respected
Europeans (a Journalist, a Lt. Col of the German Air Force,
a retired secretary of Defense, a historian et al.) think and talk
about 9/11 from the pov from the other side of the pond.

Hope you don't mind the subtitles -



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=40...46293&hl=de



courious if you got the balls to watch this: Carl

[nicepants]

Why are you so eager to defend the official position? Do you ACTUALLY believe it??? That Osama bin Laden and his band of merry terrorists did it? Are you SERIOUS???

Let me clarify. It is not my intent to "defend the official position". Many of the statements you made above were incorrect, and my intent was to address them.

The WTC was full of paper - contracts, invoices, memos - and bombs went off. So there was all this confetti. Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is how a passport made it out of the pocket of a hijacker, survived a giant fireball and floated intact to the street. Ponder this, why wasn't that passport turned into confetti as well??? (Cause it was planted to point blame at bin Laden, you numskull!)

Who said that the passport was in his pocket? Did any other paper artifacts the size of the passport survive or was EVERY piece of paper shredded?

I can't give you a source for the 130 C figure, but I read it ... years ago when I was into biology. YOU LOOK IT UP. What's your proof that I am wrong?

You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

DNA strands separate at about 110 degrees, at around 130 the individual nucleotides fall apart. These are temperatures FAR too low to "vaporise" a plane. They are moderate - indeed, DNA is very volitile - heat destroys it. That's why boiling water destroys bacteria. DUH !!!

Is it your claim that heating human tissue to 212^oF makes DNA identification impossible?

"Source that they were not on the manifests? (Not talking about the victim list here, talking about the manifest) "

I dunnoh, this came up on a quick search -

http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/PassengerList.shtml

A manifest is just a passenger list. These are passenger lists. Official ones are hard to get ahold of, we have to rely on what CNN etc. obtained from the airlines and released. No Arab names however appear on ANY of these passenger lists. Do you know of a manifest or passenger list which has been released which includes the names of any of the hijackers?

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html
Those are links to "VICTIM lists", not passenger manifests. The hijackers were not considered victims. Where is your source that says that they were not on the manifest?

As for Andrews, f$%k "alert status", what's it there for !?!?!? What do we pay all these taxes for !?!? Andrews AFB can't get a jet in the air in close to an hour???

Not if they aren't on-alert. Not every air force base in the US has jets & pilots on-alert. On-alert means the planes are fueled & ready to go with pilots in a ready room, who can be airborne in minutes.

"Source showing that the Pentagon had missile batteries to protect it?"

There is no source. That information is classified. Re-read how I stated that. "What are the odds". Do you think the White House has batteries of stingers on it's roof but the Pentagon is un-defended?

You made no mention of odds in the statement about missile batteries. If they existed, show some evidence. If you don't have any, then it's just your opinion.

Sheesh. Nicepants, do you work for the government in some capacity? Or are you that daft and brainwashed? Is it your loyalty to your pals at J-ref? Whichever, you are a traitor to your country.

I'm against people making false claims based on nonexistent or incomplete evidence. If there is legitimate evidence of an inside job, fine, but there should be no need to make things up to support that theory. Rejecting false claims doesn't make me a traitor.

[mrodway]

I'm against people making false claims based on nonexistent or incomplete evidence.

So am I! Although I would add "withheld" to the list as well.

So does that mean you would also be willing to take on the Government and Mainstream Media over their claims that Osama bin Laden was behind it all?

[grizz]

Is it your contention that human DNA can survive temperatures that metal cannot?

LOL at all your nonsense. Do you government loyalists draw straws to see whose turn it is to come here to be decimated? Do you get points? Is it a game?

Let me tell you something mister smartypants. Your sort of BS is simply laughable. And traitorous. This is not a game. This is as real as it gets. Evil people inside our government assisted in the mass murder committed against the entire human race on 9/11/2001. The obvious military standdown proves at least that much. No doubt about it! Fighter jets are scrambled frequently when the red flags at the FAA pop up. That is standard operating procedure. Case closed.

Your transparent diversional tactics are too obvious, your debate techniques too sophomoric. Go back where you came from and stick your head back in the sand. Collect your points at the exit door.

[nicepants]

Is it your contention that human DNA can survive temperatures that metal cannot?

I'm not the one making claims about the DNA.

Let me tell you something mister smartypants. Your sort of BS is simply laughable. And traitorous. This is not a game. This is as real as it gets. Evil people inside our government assisted in the mass murder committed against the entire human race on 9/11/2001. The obvious military standdown proves at least that much. No doubt about it! Fighter jets are scrambled frequently when the red flags at the FAA pop up. That is standard operating procedure. Case closed.

Fighter jets did get scrambled, from an AFB which was on-alert.

[Guest_Brainwashed_*]

Source for your claim that DNA dissintegrates [sic] at 130C?

If you're naive enough to believe human DNA would survive the destruction of the Towers, feel free to ask at the following board-
http://www.biology-online.org/biology-forum/

[lunk]

All I found was this:

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/M...perature_of_dna

" Melting temperature of dna

melting temperature of DNA --> denaturation temperature of DNA

That temperature at which, under a given set of conditions, double-stranded dNA is changed (50%) to single-stranded DNA; under standard conditions, the base composition of the DNA can be estimated from the denaturation temperature, since the greater the denaturation temperature, the greater the guanine-plus-cytosine content (i.e., gC content) of the DNA. "

It doesn't give a temperature.

ugh, lunk

[Guest_Brainwashed_*]

Did Andrews have any fighters on alert? (Combat-ready means that they can be deployed within 24 hours, not the same thing)

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/

NORAD Stand-Down
The Prevention of Interceptions of the Commandeered Planes

It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times.

There are several elements involved in domestic air defense. The air traffic control system continuously monitors air traffic and notifies NORAD of any deviations of any aircraft from their flight-paths or loss of radio contact. NORAD monitors air and space traffic continuously and is prepared to react immediately to threats and emergencies. It has the authority to order units from the Air National Guard, the Air Force, or other armed services to scramble fighters in pursuit of jetliners in trouble.

Routine interception procedures were not followed on September 11th, 2001.
Layered Failures

The air defense network had, on September 11th, predictable and effective procedures for dealing with just such an attack. Yet it failed to respond in a timely manner until after the attack was over, more than an hour and a half after it had started. The official timeline describes a series of events and mode of response in which the delays are spread out into a number of areas. There are failures upon failures, in what might be described as a strategy of layered failures, or failure in depth. The failures can be divided into four types.

* Failures to report: Based on the official timeline, the FAA response times for reporting the deviating aircraft were many times longer than the prescribed times.
* Failures to scramble: NORAD, once notified of the off-course aircraft, failed to scramble jets from the nearest bases.
* Failures to intercept: Once airborne, interceptors failed to reach their targets because they flew at small fractions of their top speeds.
* Failures to redeploy: Fighters that were airborne and within interception range of the deviating aircraft were not redeployed to pursue them.

Had not there been multiple failures of each type, one or more parts of the attack could have been thwarted. NORAD had time to protect the World Trade Center even given the unbelievably late time, 8:40, when it claims to have first been notified. It had time to protect the South Tower and Washington even given its bizarre choice of bases to scramble. And it still had ample opportunity to protect both New York City and Washington even if it insisted that all interceptors fly subsonic, simply by redeploying airborne fighters.
Failures to Report

Comparing NORAD's timeline to reports from air traffic control reveals inexplicable delays in the times the FAA took to report deviating aircraft. The delays include an 18-minute delay in reporting Flight 11 and a 39-minute delay in reporting Flight 77. The delays are made all the more suspicious given that, in each case, the plane failed to respond to communications, was off-course, and had stopped emitting its IFF signal.

Failures to Scramble

No plausible explanation has been provided for failing to scramble interceptors in a timely fashion from bases within easy range to protect the September 11th targets. Fighters that were dispatched were scrambled from distant bases. Early in the attack, when Flight 11 had turned directly south toward New York City, it was obvious that New York City and the World Trade Center, and Washington D.C. would be likely targets. Yet fighters were not scrambled from the bases near the targets. They were only scrambled from distant bases. Moreover there were no redundant or backup scrambles.

New York City

Flight 11 had been flying south toward New York City from about 8:30 AM. Yet no interceptors were scrambled from nearby Atlantic City, or La Guardia, or from Langley, Virginia. Numerous other bases were not ordered to scramble fighters.
Washington D.C.

No interceptors were scrambled from Andrews Air Force Base to protect the capital, at least not before the Pentagon was hit. Andrews Air Force Base had two squadrons of fighters on alert, and is only 10 miles from the Pentagon.

Failures to Intercept

Even though the interceptors were not dispatched from the most logical bases, the ones that were scrambled still had adequate time to reach their assigned planes. Why didn't they? Because they were only flying at a small fraction of their top speed. That is the conclusion implicit in NORAD's timeline.

Otis to the WTC

The first base to finally scramble interceptors was Otis in Falmouth, Massachusetts, at 8:52, about a half-hour after Flight 11 was taken over. This was already eight minutes after Flight 11 hit the North Tower, and just 9 minutes before Flight 175 hit the South Tower.

According to NORAD, at the time of the South Tower Impact the two F-15s from Otis were still 71 miles away. Otis is 153 miles east-northeast of the WTC. That means the F-15s were flying at:
(153 miles - 71 miles)/(9:03 - 8:52) = 447 mph
That is around 23.8% of their top speed of 1875 mph.
At 9:11 the F-15s finally reached the World Trade Center. Their average speed for the trip was:
153/(9:11 - 8:52) = 483 mph
That is around 25.8% of their top speed.

Langley to the Pentagon

The F-16s from Langley reached the Pentagon at 9:49. It took them 19 minutes to reach Washington D.C. from Langley AFB, which is about 130 miles to the south. That means the F-16s were flying at:
130 miles/(9:49 - 9:30) = 410.5 mph
That is around 27.4% of their top speed of 1500 mph.

Andrews to the Pentagon

Andrews Air Force Base, located on the outskirts of the capital, is just over 10 miles from the Pentagon. One would have expected interceptors to be scrambled to protect the capital within a few minutes of the 8:15 loss of contact with Flight 11. Instead, no fighters from Andrews reached the Pentagon until 9:49, several minutes after the assault.
Failures to Redeploy

Fighters that were in the air when the attack started were not redeployed to intercept the deviating planes. When fighters scrambled to protect Manhattan arrived there too late, they were not redeployed to protect the capital even though they had plenty of time to reach it before the Pentagon was hit.
Long Island to Manhattan

Two F-15s flying off the coast of Long Island were not redeployed to Manhattan until after the second tower was hit. 3
WTC to the Pentagon

By the time the two F-15s from Otis reached Manhattan, the only jetliner still flying with its IFF transponder off had just made a 180-degree turn over southern Ohio and had been headed for Washington D.C. for 12 minutes. It was still 34 minutes before the Pentagon was hit. Had the fighters been sent to protect the capital, they could have traveled the approximately 300 miles in:
300 miles/1875 mph = 9.6 minutes
They even could have made it to the capital in time to protect the Pentagon if they had continued to fly at only 500 mph.

http://www.norad.mil/News/2007/022207.html

NORAD personnel hone response skills in Amalgam Arrow exercises

Feb. 22, 2007

By Sgt. 1st Class Gail Braymen
NORAD and USNORTHCOM Public Affairs

PETERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Colo. — About once every month, North American Aerospace Defense Command personnel hone their crisis response skills in a training exercise called Amalgam Arrow.

Amalgam Arrow exercises are relatively short – usually lasting just one or two hours – and are designed to test NORAD's ability to detect and defend against unknown aircraft flying in Canada and the United States.

For instance, if an aircraft deviates from its filed flight plan, its identification beacon stops broadcasting, or communications with the aircraft are lost, the FAA notifies NORAD. NORAD personnel then determine where the aircraft is, where it's headed, and whether or not fighters need to be launched.

Amalgam Arrow exercises incorporate more than just hijacking scenarios on commercial jets, said Air Force Col. Steve DePalmer, deputy director of NORAD operations. An unknown aircraft could also just be having trouble with its navigation or communications system.

"Are they simply undergoing an emergency where they can't talk to us, or they can't navigate?" DePalmer explained. "Or do they have some other type of nefarious intentions that we need to find out about and then take an appropriate action?"

The Amalgam Arrow exercises allow pilots and other personnel to practice quickly getting fighters to the aircraft in question and determining the intent of the people on board.

"If it's simply for an emergency, we're able to help that distressed aircraft," DePalmer said. "If it's not, then we're able to make some decisions as to what's next, with respect to preventing this aircraft from causing a loss of life and property."

Amalgam Arrow exercises can either be "live-fly" – with actual civilian planes and NORAD fighters in the air – or they can be simulated.

During the exercises, while NORAD is actively engaged in detecting potential airborne threats and determining what actions to take, USNORTHCOM is closely listening and watching every development.

"For instance," DePalmer said, "let's say this aircraft was in distress, was having an emergency and did not make it to its destination airfield. If that aircraft actually has an accident and crashes along the way, NORTHCOM may be there for what we call consequence management," depending on the severity of the incident.

NORAD personnel have a "somber zeal" for their mission of defending U.S. and Canadian airspace, DePalmer said.

"That's the mission we were given," he said. "We practice it, and we take it very seriously, and we want the citizens of both the United States and Canada to know that there is a system out there and forces out there that are ready if that type of scenario occurs today."

http://www.norad.mil/news/2005/030405_b.html

New Command Center Opens at Cheyenne Mountain

March 4, 2005

By Petty Officer 1st Class Beverly Allen
NORAD and USNORTHCOM Public Affairs

PETERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Colo. -
Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center (CMOC)
held a ribbon cutting ceremony March 4 to commemorate the official opening of the "new command center" at the Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station in Colorado Springs, Colo.

U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Duane Deal, commander, Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center, and Canadian Air Force Brig. Gen. James D. Hunter, vice commander, Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center, officiated at the ceremony.


The renovation project enlarged the physical dimensions of the command center to accommodate additional personnel supporting the expanding missions of homeland defense and ground-based midcourse missile defense. Construction started Aug 11, 2003.

Deal and Hunter provided a brief history of the command center before the ribbon cutting. Deal introduced the Cheyenne Mountain complex as "a bi-national treasure we call the '8th wonder of the world.' "

"The concept for such an installation was born in the mid-1950s," Deal continued. "At that time, the Soviet nuclear bomber threat was growing ominous, and it was predicted that an intercontinental ballistic missile capability would arrive by the late 1950s."

Deal said that excavation began with the first blast in 1961. Construction progressed under the Army Corps of Engineers on a rapid pace as the tunnels were created and completed in only 367 days.

"The Operations Center then became activated in April of 1966 . . . and has continuously and proudly served the United States and Canada since then," Deal said.

Hunter added, "As the mountain was hollowed out, the tunnels equated to 5.1 acres of space, with more than 700,000 tons of granite removed. In the process, the construction created elements now closely associated with the mountain, to include the portal entry, the blast doors, the reservoirs and the powerful diesel generators."

Those familiar with the mountain are aware that it functions not just as a command center but also as a city within a city. The Cheyenne Mountain complex has its own police and fire departments, a convenience store, barber, medical and dental clinic, cafeteria, chapel and recreation facilities.

Before the ribbon-cutting, Adm. Timothy Keating, the commander of the North American Aerospace Defense Command and U.S. Northern Command, said "The eighth wonder of the world and state of the art command center is not much good without the dedicated professionals from both nations who populate the various watch posts, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year."

Then Keating and Gen. Lance Lord, the commander of Air Force Space Command, performed the ceremonial ribbon cutting at the window to the command center. They were assisted by Airman Brittany Hartkorn, junior U. S. enlisted member, and Cpl. Tracy Lynch, junior non-commissioned member of the Canadian Air Force.

Deal said, "Ladies and gentlemen, it's our pleasure to announce . . ." His sentence was completed by Hunter who said, ". . .we are now officially open for business!" Deal and Hunter led the way into the new command center.

The completed construction project enlarged the command center to accommodate the expanding homeland defense mission as well as improve the NORAD-USNORTHCOM headquarters facilities in order to provide better situational awareness for the NORAD-USNORTHCOM commander. All of these spaces reside within Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station. These renovations included demolition and reconstruction of rooms, leveling of floors and extensive rewiring. The end result of the construction yielded fully finished spaces ready to occupy. These spaces are outfitted with large-screen display systems and modernized, state-of-the-art, operator workstations.

The command center renovation project was completed in two stages. The first stage was a demolition and construction of the existing physical space of the command center and "battle cab" (a meeting room used by the commander and his senior staff), and its associated conference room. John Bowman, Inc. accomplished this work. During this phase, operations were relocated within Cheyenne Mountain into a contingency relocation center, where the command center functioned for 17 months. The second stage of the project dealt with the design, purchase and installation of display systems and operator workstations. Lockheed Martin was the prime contractor for this "systems" part.

CMOC is one of the most unique installations in the world. Apart from the fact that it is housed more than 2,400 feet underground, CMOC is also a joint and bi-national military organization comprised of over 200 professional men and women from the Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force, and Canadian Forces. Operations are conducted in eight centers manned 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The centers are the Air Warning Center, Missile Correlation Center, Domestic Warning Center, Space Control Center, Operational Intelligence Watch, Systems Center, Weather Center, and the Command Center. Additionally, CMOC is linked with 22 Federal Aviation Administration centers nationwide which provide an internal air picture of the United States.

Supporting the NORAD mission of aerospace warning and aerospace control, CMOC provides warning of ballistic missile or air attacks against North America, provides command and control for the air sovereignty mission for the U.S. and Canada, and if necessary, serves as the focal point for air defense operations to counter enemy bombers or cruise missiles. CMOC supports USNORTHCOM's homeland defense mission to deter, prevent and defeat threats and aggression aimed at the United States, its territories and interests within the assigned area of responsibility. It also serves as the command and control node for the Ground-based Midcourse Defense portion of the United States missile defense program.

CMOC also supports U.S. Strategic Command by providing a day-to-day picture of precisely what is in space and where it is located. Space control operations include protection, prevention and negation functions supported by the surveillance of space.

[Guest_Brainwashed_*]

All I found was this:

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/M...perature_of_dna

" Melting temperature of dna

melting temperature of DNA --> denaturation temperature of DNA

That temperature at which, under a given set of conditions, double-stranded dNA is changed (50%) to single-stranded DNA; under standard conditions, the base composition of the DNA can be estimated from the denaturation temperature, since the greater the denaturation temperature, the greater the guanine-plus-cytosine content (i.e., gC content) of the DNA. "

It doesn't give a temperature.

ugh, lunk

I meant nicepants could register and ask the members himself.

[lunk]

Couldn't help but notice that there was a section there on eugenics!

Never registered.

lol, lunk

[Sanders]

I'm no fan of Gerard Holmgren, but his page devoted to trying to make sense of the passenger lists is pretty good I thought

http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=65

Is it your claim that heating human tissue to 212oF makes DNA identification impossible?

Never said that. I said "boiling water destroys bacteria". (and I hardly think that's controversial). In fact, I hinted at the distinction between the temperatures required to dissolve the bonds that hold the strands together into a double helix and the temperatures required to dissolve the bonds that hold the nucleotides together. I would guess that just denaturing the strands would not make identification impossible.

You are not going to find a link to a page on the web somewhere that says nucleotides in a strand of DNA dissintigrate at 130 degrees celsius, nor at any other definitive temperature. I've looked. That doesn't mean that heat doesn't kill DNA, DNA is fragile. However there are other factors - how long the exposure to the heat, the pH (if the DNA is in a solution), base composition of the DNA etc. I'm no scientist, but you don't have to be to figure out that DNA is going to cook long before the plane does. I should clarify one thing, denaturing will occur at lower temperatures than the 110 degree figure I threw out, that simply is the nominal temperature that (if memory serves me) autoclaves in hospitals use to (thoroughly) sterilize instruments. Denaturing occurs at even lower temperatures actually, 80 degrees, 85 degrees, 90 degrees (I'm sticking with celsius here), it all depends on how long the exposure. The bonds that hold the nucleotides together are stronger however, and you have to heat them up more than that. I read (out of a book - not on the web) many years ago somewhere that nucleotides fall apart with exposure to temperatures upwards of 130 degrees, but I'm sure if you stew them at 120 for long enough they'd give up the ghost, and might survive a couple of seconds of exposure to even higher temperatures. Again, I'm no expert, that's simply what I've picked up along the way on the subject. What shall we argue about next, how long can you drive a car with no oil in the engine before it throws a rod? How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?

Or, how long would hijacked planes have to have meandered around the skies of the eastern US unmolested by the Air-force to know that something was rotten? To argue, after such a systemic failure of the air-defense network on 9-11, about the difference between "combat-ready" and "on-alert" status, or, to give another example, about whether the fact that Andrews was not a "NORAD" base and so wouldn't have been asked to do something while a hijacked plane was headed for the Pentagon is relevant or not, is grasping at straws. Of course they are going to come up with all manner of excuses why the air-defense system failed - but to believe for a second, no, not just believe but defend the position, that it was all just a lot of unfortunate circumstances, they tried but just couldn't get it together because of this, that and the other ... bull-malarky. The FAA-NORAD-Airforce team had a hundred percent success record scrambling jets to deal with wayward planes prior to that day, and a 100% failure rate on 9-11 (or 75% if you buy the notion that flight 93 was shot down).

[Omega892R09]

I'm not the one making claims about the DNA.

I saw your post last evening before Sanders had a chance to reply and I immediately though Uh! Oh! Another drive by.

Your questioning appeared rather facetious so I thought I would let Sanders open up.

Each of your questions could be answered by YOU taking a little time and researching, research that would show Sanders is substantively correct.

From the context of the DNA question for example it is obvious that the temperatures for the loss of integrity of human DNA and of an aircraft's structure are under comparison.

Thus given the known melting point of Aluminiums, steels, titanium etc, it is clear that human DNA will be destroyed way below such temperatures. Thus the OCT cannot claim that the aircraft that was claimed to hit the Pentagon vapourised but that some human DNA, enough samples to identify numerous individuals, was somehow preserved.

That is the context of your question and little searching throws up this:

In 1986, this original PCR process was greatly improved by the use of DNA polymerase taken from thermophilic bacteria grown in geysers at a temperature of over 110°C (230°F). The DNA polymerase taken from these organisms is stable at high temperatures and, when used in PCR, does not break down when the mixture was heated to separate the DNA strands. Since there was no longer a need to add new DNA polymerase for each cycle, the process of copying a given DNA strand could be simplified and automated.

The full article can be found here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/polymerase-ch...tion?cat=health

Notice that to obtain a working method a DNA polymerase of an organism of rather different ecology had to be introduced which indicates that human DNA is temperature sensitive at around 110 degree C.

Of course, if you have information to the contrary then perhaps you could share it with us and the same goes for all the other questions of yours.

BTW pathology is a useful term to use in any search expression.

This post has been edited by Omega892R09: Apr 15 2008, 07:46 AM

[lunk]

DNA, hmm,

Life can be found living at very high temperature:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/abyss/life/extremes2.html

"Vent microbes themselves can take temperatures up to 230°F."

This is under very high pressure, in the depth of the ocean.

Still well below plane vaporization temperature.

imo, lunk

[grizz]

nicepants, I have a question for you. Exactly where, according to the government, was the DNA of the AA77 passengers found? The information exists and is even within this forum somewhere.

Go find it, bring it here and post it, and let's continue the discussion. Because at that point I'll have some other questions for you regarding how it got where it was.

[Sanders]

"Vent microbes themselves can take temperatures up to 230°F."

Far out. I'm currently contemplating selling smoothies here in Japan (as a side-line ... a crazy idea but I miss my daily Odwalla smoothie!), the flash-pasteurization process involves heating the drink to just 74 degrees C for a few seconds before bottling - that's apparently enough to sufficiently damage the bacteria without killing the vitamins. There must be some mechanism in there to protect the DNA helix from unwinding in the case of those vent microbes. Ordinarily, DNA can't take those kinds of temperatures. But then, evolution has a way of finding solutions - like frogs that can survive freezing for example.

[Sanders]

...Thus the OCT cannot claim that the aircraft that was claimed to hit the Pentagon vapourised but that some human DNA, enough samples to identify numerous individuals, was somehow preserved.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

Actually, 63 of 64 passengers were reportedly successfuly identified (no Arabs aomng them btw), and DNA identification was stated as integral to the identification success. Oh gawd, nicepants is gonna want a link to support THAT statement as well. It's gone, n-pants, gone 404, like so many other links that the government doesn't want people to see, or that people who are afraid of government retaliation (IRS audits etc.) decide to take down. The research was done by a Dr. Olmert I believe.

[nicepants]

Sanders - I noticed that you haven't responded to all of my statements or requests for sources, please do so.

Regarding pages being missing, many pages that no longer exist can be found with services like google cache, or the "wayback machine". It's quite ridiculous for someone to think that taking a website down means that the data is gone forever.

@Brainwashed - If Andrews AFB did not have fighters on alert, there's no reason to have expected them to launch some immediately.

This post has been edited by nicepants: Apr 15 2008, 10:00 PM