Letters From The "other Side" Options

[Leslie Landry]

I have been writing people who believe the governments story to see what they have to say about matter and why they believe it had nothing to do with the US Government. I needed to see why they felt so strongly about this. Most people i talked to, of course all i got was "your Dumb, brainwashed, sick in the head..." and the list goes on. any put down there is..ive got it...All because i asked questions. Most of these people would not give me their side of the story, they felt the "put down" was enough to be said.

Here is a conversation that i started having with a man who was actually able to have an inteligent conversation with me (for the most part ~ we started off a little rushy)


He Writes (In a group):
Ok conspiracy nuts, so 911 was an inside job and you have all this "evidence" proving it. What are you waiting for? Why don't you bring Bush down for treason, put him and all others involved on trial? Oh yeah, its because if you used your conspiracy theories to prove 911 was an inside job in a criminal trial you would lose! You have no evidence! Just theories that have been debunked and proven false. Morgan Reynolds lost all his credibility when he denied real planes hit the towers.

My Response:
You really shouldnt open your mouth when you have no idea what you are talking about...and i mean that with all do respect.

He Writes
Don't worry I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've heard every single 911 conspiracy and I've seen every 911 conspiracy website and its all based on cherry picked facts that ignore anything that doesn't support its target conclusion. Its the exact same way moon landing deniers try to support their argument. Show me real hard evidence proving 911 was an inside job. Evidence that will get our government prosecuted.



My Response:
Re: 9/11 First of all...don't try and assume what my beliefs are. there are a lot of stories that i don't agree with. I am the farthest thing from a conspiracy theorist. When a Theory turns into a fact, its not a theory any longer. I look at facts and ask questions....questions the government refuses to answer...and I'm sure you will come up with something like "well of course they wont answer them, they are ridiculous questions." There are way too many holes to the governments story and we deserve answers. there were 84 recorded footage of what hit the pentagon that day and yet..they release one 5-frame tape of nothing. doesn't that in itself count for something? don't you even care why? thats just one out of many. you can continue to be blind but its you that has to suffer in the end.

His Response:
Re: 9/11 First off I'm not exactly referring to you when I say conspiracy theorist. I'm mostly talking about the people who came up with these theories. Let me give you an example. Do you know who originally came up with the theory that a missile hit the Pentagon instead of Flight 77? It wasn't a scientist or an expert witness it was a controversial French auther named Thierry Meyssan. He made the original claim of that it couldn't have been flight 77 that hit the pentagon because the hole didn't match the wingspan. What he didn't say was that the 12ft hole came from the landing gear and the larger hole that came from the fuselage was 75ft because one wing hit the ground and the other was sheared off on impact. He also ignored the fact that hundreds of eyewitnesses saw the plane and DNA evidence matching the passangers was recovered at the crash site. Yes it is true that not all video tapes of Flight 77 have been released. The reason why is because its criminal evidence which never gets released to the public during an investigaion. Simply the fact that the pentagon hasn't yet released all its tapes doesn't automatically prove a missile hit the pentagon, especially with all the evidence proving otherwise.

I also keep hearing truthers claim that Bin Laden not being on the FBI's most wanted list for 911 proves that Al Qaeda had no responsibility in the attacks while ignoring the fact that Al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confirmed its role in the 911 attacks along with the 1993 WTC bombing.

I'm not saying we have all the answers to what happened on 911. There is nothing wrong with being skeptical. Most truthers however don't act like skeptics. They act like a bunch of extreme leftists who are anti government or anti american therefore would love for 911 to be an inside job and would do anything to prove it.

My Response:
Re:9/11
The DNA that claims to be found at the pentagon...there is no proof that it actually came from there. There have been eye witnesses that said they have seen the plane fly over but the government refused to document it. About keeping the tapes for evidence...that is a poor excuse for the government...very poor.

And by any means am i saying that a missile hit the pentagon...i just want proof that it didn't.

Some people would claim right off that i am out for the government and would do anything to prove them wrong...but that is not true...i would do anything for them to prove me wrong. i truly hope i am and until then...im going to keep asking questions.

My question to you is that if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confessed to being involved..then why is Bush saying they can not link them to Sept 11?


His Response:
Re: Re: 9/11 Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is currently on trial for war crimes and will probably face death penalty. Bush never said he couldn't link Al Qaeda to 911. The reason Osama Bin Laden is not on the FBI's most wanted list is because no hard evidence has linked him personally to plotting 911 even though Bin Laden also admitted his role in the 911 attacks on October 2004.

Here is an article that explains the DNA recovery at the pentagon.

http://www.dcmilitary.com/dcmilitary_archi...1/12279-1.shtml

What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists, and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, with headquarters at Walter Reed, played a major role in Operation Noble Eagle investigations, officials said.

Many of the casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital. The rest were killed on site, and for some, only pieces of tissue could be found.

AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators, and support personnel worked for over two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the DNA lab in Rockville, to identify the victims of the attack.

"Our staff represented every branch of the service," said AFIP Director Navy Capt. Glenn N. Wagner. "We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses, and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."

The investigation mobilized AFIP assets in many ways. In the hours following the crash Sept. 11, the acting armed forces medical examiner, Air Force Col. AbuBakr Marzouk, worked with FBI and local Virginia law enforcement officials to create a plan for recovering and identifying the victims.

At the same time, personnel from the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner positioned and staged equipment to begin operations at Dover. Air Force Maj. Bruce Ensign served as AFIP's team leader at the site.

"We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," Ensign said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the investigation team. Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME's Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology.

AFDIL scientists ensured data systems and records were available to make DNA identifications, while the oral pathology group created a triage area to conduct positive dental identifications. Contacts were also made with family services in each branch of the military to obtain ante-mortem information and reference material. Mortuary operations were fully underway by the evening of Sept. 13. AFIP used a well-defined and tested system for conducting the identifications of the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at the morgue, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. A computerized tracking system assigned numbers to each victim for efficient tracking.

FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications. Forensic dentistry experts from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology performed dental charting and comparison with ante-mortem dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in the identification process, followed by autopsy inspection.

At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause and manner of death, aided by forensic anthropologist Dr. William C. Rodriguez in determining the race, sex, and stature of victims. A board-certified epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers, essential to any forensic investigation, documented injuries and personal effects. Mortuary specialists then embalmed, dressed, and casketed remains prior to release to next-of-kin.

For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the operation.

"This is the largest mass fatality we've dealt with in recent years," Ensign said. "We have modalities today that we didn't have before. Our investigation was much more technology-intensive." Ensign noted the entire team worked well together. "Because of the combined effort of all three services and the FBI, we were very pleased with the speed of the identification process. Essential records and references were submitted to us in a timely way."

Logistical help from AFIP also played an important role. "We had tremendous logistical issues obtaining equipment, especially with additional demands in New York City and Somerset County, Pa.," he said. "Fortunately our logistical support was terrific in helping us get material in." The Dover mortuary sent specimens back to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville.

Teams of forensic scientists, under the direction of Demris Lee, technical leader of the Nuclear DNA Section, took over the difficult chore of generating a DNA profile of the victims. Their work included not only the Pentagon crash victims, but the victims of the Somerset County crash as well. Every one of the organization's 102 DNA analysts, sample processors, logistics staff, and administrative personnel were involved -- from collecting, tracking, analyzing DNA samples, and gathering and logging DNA reference material to preparing DNA reports. For 18 days following the terrorist attacks, AFDIL employees worked on 12-hour shifts, seven days a week to meet the mission requirements.



List of eyewitness accounts at the pentagon

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Pentagon_witnesses

Gary Bauer, "I was in a massive traffic jam, hadn't moved more than a hundred yards in twenty minutes. My office called to tell me about the first plane in New York, the reaction was 'horrible accident.' And then they called about the second plane, and clearly that meant something much worse was going on. It was only then that I really noticed where I was in that traffic jam. I was going past the Pentagon, really inching a yard or so every couple of minutes. I had just passed the closest place the Pentagon is to the exit on 395 . . . when all of a sudden I heard the roar of a jet engine. "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn't until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment.[1]
Richard Benedetto was in his car on his way to work, stuck in traffic just outside the Pentagon. He was listening -- in horror -- to an account of what had just happened at the World Trade Center in New York. "Then the plane flew right over my head. I said to myself, boy, that plane is going awfully fast," Benedetto said. "That plane is going to crash." The jet knocked over several light posts before it smashed into the Pentagon. Other observers said it seemed to come in full throttle with no attempt to slow down. "The noise was like an artillery shell, not an explosion like a bomb," Benedetto said. Then he saw a giant billow of smoke followed by a huge fireball, presumably the exploding fuel from the crashed plane. "You couldn't even see the building because there was so much smoke," said Benedetto. The sight was shocking and chilling, even for a veteran reporter. "You don't hand in your humanity when you get a press pass," he said.[2]
Donald R. Bouchoux "I was driving down Washington Boulevard (Route 27) along the side of the Pentagon when the aircraft crossed about 200 yards in front of me and impacted the side of the building. There was an enormous fireball, followed about two seconds later by debris raining down. The car moved about a foot to the right when the shock wave hit. I had what must have been an emergency oxygen bottle from the airplane go flying down across the front of my Explorer and then a second piece of jagged metal come down on the right side of the car."[3]
Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. "It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane," Mr Campo said. "I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."[4]
Daryl Donley, saw the crash as he was driving on Washington Boulevard. Among debris that was scattered as the plane crashed, he found a "scorched green oxygen tank marked 'Cabin air. Airline use'" on the road.[5] Mr. Donley also had a camera with him, and took some of the first photographs after the crash.[6]
Penny Elgas exited I-395 and came on to Washington Boulevard, heading towards the Memorial Bridge. She was "stuck in late morning rush hour traffic, almost in front of the Pentagon. Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew was there. My first thought was "Oh My God, this must be World War III!" In that split second, my brain flooded with adrenaline and I watched everything play out in ultra slow motion, I saw the plane coming in slow motion toward my car and then it banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport. In the nano-second that the plane was directly over the cars in front of my car, the plane seemed to be not more than 80 feet off the ground and about 4-5 car lengths in front of me. It was far enough in front of me that I saw the end of the wing closest to me and the underside of the other wing as that other wing rocked slightly toward the ground. I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane -- I could see the windows and the color stripes. And I remember thinking that it was just like planes in which I had flown many times but at that point it never occurred to me that this might be a plane with passengers. In my adrenaline-filled state of mind, I was overcome by my visual senses. The day had started out beautiful and sunny and I had driven to work with my car's sunroof open. I believe that I may have also had one or more car windows open because the traffic wasn't moving anyway. At the second that I saw the plane, my visual senses took over completely and I did not hear or feel anything -- not the roar of the plane, or wind force, or impact sounds. The plane seemed to be floating as if it were a paper glider and I watched in horror as it gently rocked and slowly glided straight into the Pentagon. At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring. At that point, the wings disappeared into the Pentagon. And then I saw an explosion and watched the tail of the plane slip into the building. It was here that I closed my eyes for a moment and when I looked back, the entire area was awash in thick black smoke."[7] (read more... See photos)
Fred Gaskins recounted "(The jet) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target," he said , who was driving to his job as a national editor at USA TODAY near the Pentagon when the jet passed about 150 feet overhead. "It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong."[8]
Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam on Columbia Pike near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in."[4]
Asework Hagos, 26, of Arlington, was driving on Columbia Pike on his way to work as a consultant for Nextel. He saw a plane flying very low and close to nearby buildings. "I thought something was coming down on me. I know this plane is going to crash. I've never seen a plane like this so low." He said he looked at it and saw American Airline insignia and when it made impact with the Pentagon initially he saw smoke, then flames.[9]
Eugenio Hernandez, APTN - Latin American Desk, "I was in my Jeep Cherokee, driving on Route 395 toward DC and listening to NPR. I saw the plane coming down. I didn't have a camera with me. On the left shoulder, I saw this tourist with a video camera. The man was with his wife and son. They were from southern Virginia. He was freaked out completely. He was not recording anything. The camera was facing the ground. I jumped out of my car, pulled out one of my business cards, and handed it to him. 'I work for a news agency. Please could I borrow your camera?' I explained, 'I'm sure you will be rewarded.' He handed me the camera, and I went across the road. No one stopped me. I was holding my press badge on top of the camera while I was recording; I walked as close as possible. I was maybe 300 feet from the impact."[10]
Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. "There was a big boom," he said. "Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled 'Did you see that?' Nobody could believe it."[8]
Mary Lyman, who was on I-395, saw the airplane pass over at a "steep angle toward the ground and going fast" and then saw the cloud of smoke from the Pentagon.[11]
Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. "The traffic was very slow moving, and at one point just about at a standstill," said McGraw, a Catholic priest at St. Anthony Parish in Falls Church. "I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars." McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. "The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. "I saw it crash into the building," he said. "My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression," he said. "I hadn't heard about the World Trade Center at that point, and so I was thinking this was an accident. I figured it was just an accident. "There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.[12]
Kirk Milburn, a construction supervisor for Atlantis Co., who was on the Arlington National Cemetery exit of Interstate 395 when he said he saw the plane heading for the Pentagon. "I was right underneath the plane, I heard a plane. I saw it. I saw debris flying. I guess it was hitting light poles," said Milburn. "It was like a WHOOOSH whoosh, then there was fire and smoke, then I heard a second explosion." [9]
Christopher Munsey, who was en route to work on I-395, "Already dumbfounded by the first, sketchy radio reports of the catastrophic attack on the World Trade Center towers in New York, I couldn't believe what I was now seeing to my right: A silver, twin-engine American Airlines jetliner gliding almost noiselessly over the Navy Annex, fast, low and straight toward the Pentagon, just hundreds of yards away. It was a nightmare coming to life. The plane, with red and blue markings, hurtled by and within moments exploded in a ground-shaking "whoomp," as it appeared to hit the side of the Pentagon. A huge flash of orange flame and black smoke poured into the sky. Smoke seemed to change from black to white, forming a billowing column in the sky." [13]
John O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication, "I was going up Interstate 395, up Washington Boulevard, listening to the radio, to the news, to WTOP, and from my left side, I don't know whether I saw or heard it first -- this silver plane; I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet, it came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, 'That's not going to make it to National Airport.' And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black thick smoke. The eeriest thing about it, was that it was like you were watching a movie. There was no huge explosion, no huge rumbling on ground, it just went 'pfff.' It wasn't what I would have expected for a plane that was not much more than a football field away from me. The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head, and it scared ...me, because I knew there had been two planes that hit the World Trade Center. And I started jogging up the ramp to get as far away as possible. Then the plane -- it looked like a C-130 cargo plane -- started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround. There was nothing to see but black. The whole side of Washington Boulevard was black and on fire. I lost all sense of time. I think I was standing outside a good 20 minutes or so, and then, it was just 10 minutes until I got to the Memorial Bridge, which was closed, so I went up the GW Parkway and to a friend's house."[14]
Mary Ann Owens, of Gannett News Service, was stuck in traffic near the Pentagon, when she saw the airplane pass 50 to 75 feet overhead and crash into the Pentagon.[5]
Christine Peterson, "I was at a complete stop on the road in front of the helipad at the Pentagon; what I had thought would be a shortcut was as slow as the other routes I had taken that morning. I looked idly out my window to the left -- and saw a plane flying so low I said, 'holy cow, that plane is going to hit my car' (not my actual words). The car shook as the plane flew over. It was so close that I could read the numbers under the wing. And then the plane crashed. My mind could not comprehend what had happened. Where did the plane go? For some reason I expected it to bounce off the Pentagon wall in pieces. But there was no plane visible, only huge billows of smoke and torrents of fire. Now I wanted to get as far away as I could, but that was impossible. The people around me had gotten out of their cars. At least half had cameras and the others were on their cell phones. I experienced a moment of irrelevant amazement that so many people had cameras in their cars. A few minutes later a second, much smaller explosion got the attention of the police arriving on the scene. They began ordering people back into their cars and away."[15]
Alfred S. Regnery, travelling on I-395, "As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. Although airplanes regularly fly over the Pentagon on their way to Reagan National Airport, just a mile or two south, this plane was too low and going too fast. As I watched it disappear behind bridges and concrete barriers I knew it was about to crash... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."[16]
Steve Riskus witnessed the plane crash into the Pentagon, as he was driving along Washington Boulevard and stopped to take photographs moments after the impact.[17]
Joel Sucherman, USAToday.com Editor, "saw it all: an American Airlines jetliner fly left to right across his field of vision as he commuted to work Tuesday morning. It was highly unusual. The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror-struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away. My first thought was he's not going to make it across the river to [Reagan] National Airport. But whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction," Sucherman said. "It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep angle--almost like a heat-seeking missile was locked onto its target and staying dead on course." [18]
Jim Sutherland, on I-395, witnessed the plane pass 50 feet overhead, heading in a straight line into the Pentagon.[19]
Jim Sutherland, a mortgage broker, was driving near the Pentagon at 9:40 a.m. when he saw a 737 airplane 50 feet over Interstate 395 heading in a straight line into the side of the Pentagon. The fireball explosion that followed rocked his car. Drivers began pulling over to the side - some taking pictures - not quite believing what they were seeing.[20]
Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. "There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud," he said.[21]
Clyde Vaughn, Brig. Gen. of the U.S. Army and director of military support, told reporters he was in his car on nearby Interstate 395 when the plane hit the Pentagon on Tuesday morning. Vaughn said "I was scanning the air" as he was sitting in his car. "There wasn't anything in the air, except for one airplane, and it looked like it was loitering over Georgetown, in a high, left-hand bank," he said. "That may have been the plane. I have never seen one on that (flight) pattern. A few minutes later, Vaughn witnessed the craft's impact. [22]
Mike Walter, USA Today reporter, while driving on Washington Boulevard, also witnessed the crash. He recounted to CNN, "...looked out my window. I saw this plane, the jet, American Airlines jet coming. And I thought, this doesn't add up. It's really low. And I saw it. It just went — I mean, it was like a cruise missile with wings, it went right there and slammed right into the Pentagon. Huge explosion."[23] (See video - Mike Walter debunks the conspiracy theorists)
Barbara (spoke to CNN at 10:20 a.m.):
Barbara - As we were driving into town on 395, there was an exit, we were trying to get off the exit for Memorial Bridge. Off to the lefthand side, there was a commercial plane that came in and was coming too fast too low and the next thing we saw was it go down low beside the road and we just saw the fire that came up after that
CNN - How large was the explosion?
Barbara - It was large.
CNN - Was there a sound, as well?
Barbara - Umm, that can't verify because the windows were up in the vehicle.
CNN - Was it clear to you what had happened?
Barbara - Yes, definitely.
CNN - So you believe it was a commercial airliner that was hitting the Pentagon?
Barbara - Yes, and I'm not sure exactly where it, the Pentagon was in relation to where the plane went down, but they are relatively close to one another, whether it hit any part of the Pentagon, I'm not sure.
CNN - How low was the plane?
Barbara - When it was coming down?
CNN - Yep.
Barbara - It was coming down on less than a 45 degree angle and coming down to where the side of the 395 and when it came down it just missed the 395 and went down below it and we saw the fire come up from it.
CNN - Were you able to see what kind of plane or what airline it belonged to?
Barbara - No, I did not see what kind of airliner. I just assumed that we were so close to the airport that it was coming in to land.
CNN - But it seemed awfully low to you?
Barbara - Yes. And fast.
CNN - How big was the fireball?
Barbara - Umm, I was spatially challenged at times, but it was pretty big.
CNN - What did you think was happening?
Barbara - Umm, I know that it hit the ground and exploded.
CNN - Were you frightened yourself?
Barbara - Yes, everybody stopped the cars and we all got out and so forth.
CNN - Thank you very much.
The Pentagon
David Battle, who worked at the Pentagon, was standing outside the building and just about to enter when the aircraft struck. "It was coming down head first," he said. "And when the impact hit, the cars and everything were just shaking."[24]
Maurice L. Bease, a Marine Sergeant, had worked around Marine aviation long enough to know what a fly-by was, and it sounded like one as he stood outside his office near the Pentagon on Sept. 11. Turning around expecting to see a fighter jet fly over, he saw only a split-second glimpse of a white commercial airliner streaking low toward the building, and him! He did not even have time to duck before it plowed into the side of the Pentagon around the corner and about 200 yards from where he stood. Immediately, a ball of flame shot up the side of the building, followed by smoke, lots of it.[25]
Mickey Bell, on-site foreman, had "just left the Singleton Electric trailer when he heard a loud noise. The next thing he recalled was picking himself off the floor, where he had been thrown by the blast. Bell, who had been less than 100 feet from the initial impact of the plane, was nearly struck by one of the plane´s wings as it sped by him. In shock, he got into his truck, which had been parked in the trailer compound, and sped away. The full impact of the closeness of the crash wasn´t realized until coworkers noticed damage to Bell´s work vehicle. He had plastic and rivets from an airplane imbedded in its sheet metal, but Bell had no idea what had happened. During Bell´s close call, other Singleton workers, including sub-foreman Greg Cobaugh, were doing other work on the first and third floors."[26] "We went out to look at his truck and the truckbed was filled with all kinds of debris that must have come from the blast. He's one really lucky guy," marvels Singleton.[27]
Sean Boger, worked at the Pentagon helipad air traffic control tower, which was between the building and the heliport. He was looking out the window and saw "the nose and the wing of the aircraft just like coming right at us, and he didn't veer... I am watching the plane go all the way into the building, " he stared as the Boeing 757 smacked into the building" less than 100 feet away.[28]
"I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building."[29]
Mark Bright, a police officer at the Pentagon, saw the plane hit the building. He had been manning the guard booth at the Mall Entrance to the building. "I saw the plane at the Navy Annex area," he said. "I knew it was going to strike the building because it was very, very low -- at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down." The plane would have been seconds from impact -- the annex is only a few hundred yards from the Pentagon. He said he heard the plane "power-up" just before it struck the Pentagon. "As soon as it struck the building I just called in an attack, because I knew it couldn't be accidental," Bright said. He jumped into his police cruiser and headed to the area. [30]
Mike Dobbs, Marine Commander, who worked at the Pentagon, was on an upper level of the outer ring, looking out the window. He saw an American Airlines aircraft as it passed over the Navy Annex and hit the Pentagon.[19]
Lincoln Liebner, Army Captain, who was parking his car in the South Parking lot... "I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low, My first thought was I've never seen one that high. Before it hit I realised what was happening."[31] He saw Flight 77 come in "full throttled, wheels up, a controlled flight."[32]
Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, "left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."[33]
Probst - At approximately 9:30 a.m. on September 11, he left the Wedge 1 construction site trailer, where he had been watching live television coverage of the second plane strike into the World Trade Center towers. He begna walking to the Modular Office Compound, which is located beyond the extreme north end of the Pentagon North Parking Lot, for a meeting at 10 a.m. As he approached the heliport, he noticed a plane flying low over the Annex and heading right for him. The aircraft pulled up, seemingly aiming for the first floor of the building, and leveled off. Probst hit the gorund and observed t right wing tip pass through the portable 750 kW generator tha provides backup power to Wedge 1. The right engine took out the chain-link fence and posts surrounding the generator. The left engine struck an external steam vault before the fuselage entred the building. As the fireball from the crash moved toward him, Probst ran toward the South Parking Lot and recalls falling down tice. Fine pieces of wing debris floated down about him. The diesel fuel for the portable generator ignited while he was running. He noted only fire and smoke within the building at the point of impact.[34]
Alan Wallace was one of three firefighters assigned to the Pentagon's heliport. Along with crew members Mark Skipper and Dennis Young, Wallace arrived around 7:30 in the morning. After a quick breakfast, the 55-year-old firefighter moved the station's firetruck out of the firehouse...He parked it perpendicular to the west wall of the Pentagon. Wallace and Skipper were walking along the right side of the truck (Young was in the station) when the two looked up and saw an airplane. It was about 25 feet off the ground and just 200 yards away—the length of two football fields. They had heard about the WTC disaster and had little doubt what was coming next. "Let's go," Wallace yelled. Both men ran. Wallace ran back toward the west side of the station, toward a nine-passenger Ford van. "My plans were to run until I caught on fire," he says. He didn't know how long he'd have or whether he could outrun the oncoming plane. Skipper ran north into an open field. Wallace hadn't gotten far when the plane hit. "I hadn't even reached the back of the van when I felt the fireball. I felt the blast," he says. He hit the blacktop near the left rear tire of the van and quickly shimmied underneath. "I remember feeling pressure, a lot of heat," he says. He crawled toward the front of the van, then emerged to see Skipper out in the field, still standing. "Everything is on fire. The grass is on fire. The building is on fire. The firehouse is on fire," Wallace recalls. "There was fire everywhere. Areas of the blacktop were on fire."[35]
"I just happened to look up and see the plane," said Wallace. "It was about 200 yards away, and was coming in low and fast. I told Mark that we needed to get the hell out of there."[36]
Dennis Young, was inside the Pentagon's fire house facility. He'd been watching the reports of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on television when he heard a loud noise. Ceiling tiles lifted from the pressure as a ball of fire rolled through the station. The fire house was demolished but, other than twisting his ankle when he was trying to get out of the building, Young was unhurt. "I knew from past experience that it was a plane crash." said Young, who was one of the first to respond when a Canadian C-130 crashed near Fairbanks, Alaska in 1989.[36]
John J. Kirlin Inc. employee - For one employee with Wedge One's mechanical subcontractor John J. Kirlin Inc., Rockville MD, "lucky" is an understatement. "We had one guy who was standing, looking out the window and saw the plane when it was coming in. He was in front of one of the blast-resistant windows," says Kirlin President Wayne T. Day, who believes the window structure saved the man's life.[27]
Pentagon City
Terrance Kean, who lived in a nearby apartment building, heard the noise of loud jet engines, glanced out his window, and saw "very, very large passenger jet." He watched "it just plow right into the side of the Pentagon. The nose penetrated into the portico. And then it sort of disappeared, and there was fire and smoke everywhere."[37]
D. S. Khavkin "We live in Arlington, VA just outside of Washington, DC in a high-rise building on the eight floor. Our balcony faces the city, with a panoramic view of the Pentagon, National Airport, and the entire downtown area of Washington, DC. We were watching the events unfolding on TV in New York. Then, at about 9:40 am Eastern Daylight Time, my husband and I heard an aircraft directly overhead. At first, we thought it was the jets that sometimes fly overhead. However, it appeared to be a small commercial aircraft. The engine was at full throttle. First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles, then headed directly for the Pentagon and crashed on the lawn near the west side the Pentagon. A huge fireball exploded with thick black smoke."[38]
Dave Winslow, AP reporter, who also witnessed the crash, recounted "I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon."[39]
"I live in Pentagon City on the tenth floor of a 17-floor building that looks out at Washington. I've got a wall of windows stretching from one side to the other. I heard this enormous sound of turbulence. I said, "Oh, my God. I know what's happening." You'd have to stand next to a plane on the runway to hear it that loud. I knew it was another attack. As I turned to my right, I saw a jumbo tail go by me along Route 395. It was like the rear end of the fuselage was riding on 395. I just saw the tail go whoosh right past me. In a split second, you heard this boom. A combination of a crack and a thud. It rattled my windows. I thought they were going to blow out. Then came an enormous fireball. Only in the movies have I ever seen anything like that. It lasted one to three seconds max."[10]
Navy Annex and VDOT
Terry Morin, who worked at the nearby Navy Annex, witnessed the airliner pass 100 feet overhead, moments before it crashed into the Pentagon.[40]
Anonymous, from the Navy Annex. As I stood there, I instinctively ducked at the extremely loud roar and whine of a jet engine spooling up. Immediately, the large silver cylinder of an aircraft appeared in my window, coming over my right shoulder as I faced the Westside of the Pentagon directly towards the heliport. The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington road leading to Pentagon. The aircraft was moving fast, at what I could only be estimate as between 250 to 300 knots. All in all, I probably only had the aircraft in my field of view for approximately 3 seconds. The aircraft was at a sharp downward angle of attack, on a direct course for the Pentagon. It was "clean", in as much as, there were no flaps applied and no apparent landing gear deployed. He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just "jinked" to avoid something. As he crossed Route 110 he appeared to level his wings, making a slight right wing slow adjustment as he impacted low on the Westside of the building to the right of the helo, tower and fire vehicle around corridor 5. [41]
R.E. Rabogliatti was in his office at the Navy Annex. He "peered out of his office window and saw the airliner looming over the building. Later, recalling its screaming engines he judged that the pilot must have pushed the jet's throttle to the limit; he estimated its altitude at less than 150 feet."[42]
Madelyn Zakhem, executive secretary at the STC, had just stepped outside for a break and was seated on a bench when she heard what she thought was a jet fighter directly overhead. It wasn't. It was an airliner coming straight up Columbia Pike at tree-top level. "It was huge! It was silver. It was low -- unbelievable! I could see the cockpit. I fell to the ground.... I was crying and scared."[43]
Sheraton
Deb Anlauf was in her 14th floor hotel room, "Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window. You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall. When it hit, the whole hotel shook."[44]
Arlington Cemetery
Ron Turner, the Navy's deputy chief information officer, was standing solemnly at a funeral at Arlington National Cemetery when American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. "There was a huge fireball," he said, "followed by the [usual] black cloud of a fuel burn."[45]
Crystal City
Some workers at offices in nearby Crystal City also witnessed the crash.[11]
National Airport
Allen Cleveland, who was aboard Washington Metro heading to Ronald Reagan National Airport, "looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon."[46]
"I was just pulling in on the subway station at national airport, I just happened to look over, actually my back was facing in the direction of the Pentagon, I looked to the right from the train, as we were coming into the station and I notice a jet flying in real low, about a mid-size passenger jet flying in, I know it was silver, that's the only thing I know, as it was coming in, I just realized that there was no landing strip on that side of the subway system, so I just happened to look and thought maybe it was just my mistake because the subway system kind of curves around a little bit, and the next thing I know there was a huge explosion there and everybody on the subway, one mouthed profanity, everybody on the subway turned around and looked and everyone went into total hysterics, women were crying, and people were just absolutely in disbelief."[47]
Meseidy Rodriguez, also on Metro, saw the plane. "I saw it as it was about to hit, I didn't see it coming in because he [Allen Cleveland] just caught my attention, he yelled and I looked up and I started seeing, basically it was , I just saw very little of it, all I could tell was it was like a mid-size plane and then it was gone and there was all this smoke, and it just caught me off guard I couldn't really tell, it just went straight for the building, straight for the Pentagon."[47]
Kate Agnew, a passenger on Washington Metro, also witnessed the explosion.[11]
George Washington Parkway
Mike Cahill, a Alexandria paramedic, was driving along the George Washington Parkway near the Pentagon, listening to radio reports about the World Trade Center attack, when he saw "a huge column of smoke" rising above the trees in front of him. Cahill stepped on the gas of his 1995 Subaru Impressa and arrived at the scene minutes later. He pulled his first-aid bag out of his trunk, hopped over a barrier and rushed toward the flames. Injured streamed from the building. "Everyone that was coming towards me had burns," he said . "Some of these guys still literally had smoke or steam coming off of their body or skin."[48]
Rossyln
Steve Anderson worked on the 19th floor of the USA Today building. "I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11...as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."[49]
Elsewhere in Arlington
Daniel McAdams and his wife, Cynthia, said they were sitting in their kitchen drinking coffee in their third-floor condominium in Arlington just two miles from the Pentagon when they heard a plane fly directly overhead around 9:45 a.m. It was unusually loud and unusually low. Seconds later, they heard a big boom and felt the doors and windows of their three-storey building shake. From their window, they could see a plume of black smoke coming from the Pentagon.[50]
Across the Potomac
Captain Joseph Candelario, USA a first year student in the Family Nurse Practitioner Program began Tuesday, 11 September like most people. It was a clinical day, which meant getting up early and making the trip in to Ft. McNair to start seeing patients at 0630. He was first alerted that the day was drastically changing when one of the medics told him that a plane hit the World Trade Center. While watching the tower burn, another plane hit the second tower. Thinking that this was a very serious terrorist attack, I went outside to the river to take a break. As I was looking across the river towards the direction of the Pentagon, I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it.[51]
Ken Ford, a State Department employee, recounted looking from the 15th floor of the State Department Annex, over 1 1/2 miles away, "We were watching Reagan National Airport through binoculars a short distance away. The plane was a two-engine turbo prop that flew up the river from National. Then it turned back toward the Pentagon. We thought it had been waved off and then it hit the building."[52]
Steve Snaman, manager of the datacom division for Walker Seals, watched in horror from Fort McNair (across the river) as the jetliner came in low at full throttle, banked left and smashed into the wall of the Pentagon. "We saw the plane hit the Pentagon," Snaman said.[53]
Elsewhere in Arlington
Ralph Banton was on "a house porch a little more than a mile away." He heard a jet flying directly overhead, very low. "It sounded like it was jetting instead of slowing down," he said. Seconds later, Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon.[54]
Other witnesses
Tim Timmerman, who is a pilot himself, noticed American Airlines markings on the aircraft as he saw it hit the Pentagon.[55]
it had been an American Airways 757. "It added power on its way in," he said. "The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball."[4]
"I was looking out the window; I live on the 16th floor, overlooking the Pentagon, in a corner apartment, so I have quite a panorama. And being next to National Airport, I hear jets all the time, but this jet engine was way too loud. I looked out to the southwest, and it came right down 395, right over Colombia Pike, and as it went by the Sheraton Hotel, the pilot added power to the engines. I heard it pull up a little bit more, and then I lost it behind a building. And then it came out, and I saw it hit right in front of -- it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames. It was horrible.[56]
CNN: What can you tell us about the plane itself?
Timmerman: It was a Boeing 757, American Airlines, no question.
CNN: You say that it was a Boeing, and you say it was a 757 or 767?
Timmerman: 7-5-7.
CNN: 757, which, of course.
Timmerman: American Airlines.
CNN: American Airlines, one of the new generation of jets.
Timmerman: Right. It was so close to me it was like looking out my window and looking at a helicopter. It was just right there.
Oscar Martinez, "I saw a big jet flying close to the building coming at full speed. There was a big noise when it hit the building."[57]
Paul Begala, Democratic Party consultant, was among others who witnessed the explosion at the Pentagon.[39]
Pam Bradley, "was on my way to work, in my car, sitting on a bridge, and saw the plane hit the Pentagon. I am in a complete state of shock."[58]
Aircraft debris
Carlton Burkhammer, a member of the Fairfax County Urban Search and Rescue Team... Early Friday morning, shortly before 4 a.m., Burkhammer and another firefighter, Brian Moravitz, were combing through debris near the impact site. Peering at the wreckage with their helmet lights, the two spotted an intact seat from the plane's cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long. They'd been told the plane's "black boxes" would in fact be bright orange, but these were charred black. The boxes had handles on one end and one was torn open. They cordoned off the area and called for an FBI agent, who in turn called for someone from the National Transportation Safety Board who confirmed the find: the black boxes from American Airlines Flight 77. "We wanted to find live victims," says Burkhammer. But this was a consolation prize. "Finding the black box gave us a little boost," he says.[35]
John Damoose, a Travis City, Mich. native who was in a meeting said "everybody got nervous. .‚.‚. We didn't know whether to stay inside or go outside. The thing with terrorist attacks is that you don't know what is the next thing that will happen." Damoose said the worst part was leaving the Pentagon and walking along Fort Meyer Drive, a bike trail, "you could see pieces of the plane."[9]
Michael Defina, Captain of the National Airport's aircraft rescue firefighters (ARFF), "That afternoon, Captain Defina and airport Battalion Chief Walter Hood, as well as other jurisdictions' battalion chiefs, led crews inside with attack lines to fight fires on every floor of the "D" and "E" rings. The aircraft had penetrated all the way to the "C" ring. 'The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear.'"[59]
Rich Fitzharris (electrical engineer and former residential contractor) was in the Modular Office Compound at the time of the crash and rushed to the site on foot, arriving before the partial collapse. He recalls that the building - near the are of impact - was in flames, and he remembers seeing small pieces of debris, the largest of which might have been part of an engine shroud.[34]
Jamie McIntyre, CNN reporter, "A short -- a while ago I walked right up next to the building, firefighters were still trying to put the blaze. The fire, by the way, is still burning in some parts of the Pentagon. And I took a look at the huge gaping hole that's in the side of the Pentagon in an area of the Pentagon that has been recently renovated, part of a multibillion dollar renovation program here at the Pentagon. I could see parts of the airplane that crashed into the building, very small pieces of the plane on the heliport outside the building. The biggest piece I saw was about three feet long, it was silver and had been painted green and red, but I could not see any identifying markings on the plane. I also saw a large piece of shattered glass. It appeared to be a cockpit windshield or other window from the plane."[60]
Anonymous - "There were pieces of aircraft spread all the way up the road, at least a third of a mile from the impact site." - a witness speaking to a local CBS reporter. [1]
Bodies
Captain Joseph Candelario and his medics joined a Search and Rescue team. Upon entering the impact site, the team conducted a search of the area, surrounding corridor 5 and 6. They were able to free a few people still trapped by debris. Unfortunately, as they continued the search, they found many body parts and around six burned corpses. Unable to proceed, the fire was too hot, they set up a rally point near the front of the aircraft and waited for the D.C.F.D. to put the fire out. What they did not know was that fire would burn for over a day. After waiting a few hours, they pulled back to the center courtyard and began to set up the morgue, remaining on site until 1930 hours.[61]
Others
William Lagasse
Mark Faram
Dennis Ryan
Carmen Burgess
Don Wright - Rosslyn (ABC News)
This list is incomplete

There are more accounts that can be added to this list, based on news reports and other sources. But, even then the list will not be complete. The reason being that not everyone who saw the plane crash into the Pentagon spoke to the media. But, Washington Boulevard which goes right past the Pentagon, right past the spot where the plane crashed, is a busy highway during morning rush hour, still busy up until 10 a.m. It allows commuters to cut over from I-395, over to the Arlington Memorial Bridge, which takes one by the Lincoln Memorial and into downtown Washington. Washington Boulevard is also takes commuters over to Rosslyn, Virginia. I-395, itself, is also busy at this time of day, with drivers here having a clear view of the Pentagon. Certainly, hundreds of people saw Flight 77. Nobody saw a missile. Nobody saw the plane do a "fly over" and pass over the building. They saw the plane crash into the building.

This post has been edited by Leslie Landry: May 22 2008, 03:52 PM

[George Hayduke]

fu*ker thinks he can nail our dicks to the wall by citing so-called eyewitness accounts. "Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend who looked like a girlfriend that I had in February of last year who saw F77 hit the Pentagon." Whatever. I like how he brings up Gary Bauer, PNAC manifesto signator. Dude one day signs a manifesto calling for a "cataclysmic" and "catalyzing" event "like a New Pearl Harbor" and the next is in front of a camera swearing that F77 hit the Pentagon. Oh, really, Mr. Pied Piper. Well perhaps you should lead us to the promised land. We'll move at the spead of lemmings. Whaddya say?

The clocks at the Pentagon stopped at 9:32. The official time of impact is 9:37. Get him to explain the wrinkle in f*cking time. http://www.911courage.org/linked_docs/pentagon.pdf

Get him to explain how the FDR data supposedly taken from F77 doesn't jibe with the OGCT.

Get him to explain the war games.

Reminds me of a debate I had with Noam Chomsky who swore that he couldn't get involved in the 911TM because he had other priorities.

The musicians on the Titanic went down jamming. Let that fu*ker dance. I'm headed for a life boat.

This post has been edited by George Hayduke: May 22 2008, 04:14 PM

[dMz]

He's a long-winded chap isn't he?

Have you heard of Kevin Ryan's term "TiNRAT defense" Leslie? I believe that the acronym means They'll Never Read All That- sadly it is true of the vast majority of the American public and our "Congress." The OCT guy above- well quite frankly I got "TiNRAT" after his 2nd response, but I'll admit to being pretty jaded at this point in the "ballgame."

Were you able to keep an attention span for the later question?

PRE-EDIT: GH I can rap on "wrinkles in time"-- but "war games" all run through Cheney/Rumsfeld/Kissinger IMHO...

[Voltaire]

[i]I have been writing people who believe the governments story to see what they have to say about matter and why they believe it had nothing to do with the US Government. I needed to see why they felt so strongly about this. Most people i talked to, of course all i got was "your Dumb, brainwashed, sick in the head..." and the list goes on. any put down there is..ive got it...All because i asked questions. Most of these people would not give me their side of the story, they felt the "put down" was enough to be said.
....
Certainly, hundreds of people saw Flight 77. Nobody saw a missile. Nobody saw the plane do a "fly over" and pass over the building. They saw the plane crash into the building.

I give you my thinking.

For me, it's a mistake to insist on pentagon. This affair is very contentious, because of the eyewitnesses.
Better for me only to quote the anomalies (trajectory, bad pilot, no photo, no video, very few rubble) and to continue with others matters, Norad, flight93, inside traders, much preliminary warnings and particularly The WTC towers and wtc7.

The pentagon is the weak point of the truthers. Much better to avoid it.

[Leslie Landry]

fu*ker thinks he can nail our dicks to the wall by citing so-called eyewitness accounts. "Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend who looked like a girlfriend that I had in February of last year who saw F77 hit the Pentagon." Whatever. I like how he brings up Gary Bauer, PNAC manifesto signator. Dude one day signs a manifesto calling for a "cataclysmic" and "catalyzing" event "like a New Pearl Harbor" and the next is in front of a camera swearing that F77 hit the Pentagon. Oh, really, Mr. Pied Piper. Well perhaps you should lead us to the promised land. We'll move at the spead of lemmings. Whaddya say?

The clocks at the Pentagon stopped at 9:32. The official time of impact is 9:37. Get him to explain the wrinkle in f*cking time. http://www.911courage.org/linked_docs/pentagon.pdf

Get him to explain how the FDR data supposedly taken from F77 doesn't jibe with the OGCT.

Get him to explain the war games.

Reminds me of a debate I had with Noam Chomsky who swore that he couldn't get involved in the 911TM because he had other priorities.

The musicians on the Titanic went down jamming. Let that fu*ker dance. I'm headed for a life boat.

You have alot of anger in you...i like it! lol I will definatly send the questions his way.

[George Hayduke]

Pentagon is fertile ground for discussion. Why did the anti-aircraft missile systems malf that day? Why does the FDR data supposedly from F77 not jibe with the OGCT flight path? What is the meaning of the reports of the scent of cordite? The reports of Pentagon employees reporting "bombs"? Why were medical and emergency response personnel immediately and readily on hand b4 impact? Why was all footage of the alleged Pentagon impact confiscated by the FBI? How is it that Capt. Burlingame designs war games for the Pentagon, one of which has a civilian jetliner crashing into the Pentagon, and then himself goes on to pilot F77 which supposedly crashes into the Pentagon just as it would have happened in the war game he scripted? But it's the clocks that really break things open. The clocks fell from the wall at 9:32. The official time of impact is 9:37, having been moved forward from as late as 9:47. The reason why is because when doing radar reconstructs officials find only one blip coming near enough to the Pentagon to account for an explosion and that blip, um, maneuvered onto Pentagon property at 9:37. Now in Air War Over America, you'll find that that at 9:37 a USAF recon jet reported that he was over the Pentagon and that it looked like the bldg had been bombed, that the Ruskies hand snuck one in on us. Presto, there's your blip and your new impact time. But wait, what about the clocks, stopped at 9:32, the time of actual impact. Here is the glaring hole in the OGCT. You have an explosion that occurred at 9:32 and no blip to be blamed!

Ask him all this and he'll hit you back with more lifted rhetoric.

What I find amazing about it all is that these fuckers can call us names and evade the questions and browbeat us with their empty logic and then probably go home and kiss their wives and play with their kids and live their lives. It astounds me. But then again, their supposedly normal lives are likely as illusory as the bullshit drivel they emit when confronted with the Truth. They probably are gay and molest their kids and can't wait to be locked in underground bunkers with their fellow Luciferians to orgy and enage in outright cannibalism. No more indirect cannibalism. Straight up putting the blood in the mouth and swallowing.

Hey dMole, been a while since you've participated in a discussion on 911T, eh? Doesn't get the endorphins rolling like it used to? What to do when the thrill is gone, baby? I feel ya. Used to be talk on 911 would get me off. Now I need to have two or three conspiracy theories going at the same time just to get hard. Sometimes I just let two separate conspiracy theories jibe, you know, going at one another for a minute or two and I just sit back and watch.

This post has been edited by George Hayduke: May 22 2008, 05:13 PM

[Leslie Landry]

He's a long-winded chap isn't he?

Have you heard of Kevin Ryan's term "TiNRAT defense" Leslie? I believe that the acronym means They'll Never Read All That- sadly it is true of the vast majority of the American public and our "Congress." The OCT guy above- well quite frankly I got "TiNRAT" after his 2nd response, but I'll admit to being pretty jaded at this point in the "ballgame."

Were you able to keep an attention span for the later question?

PRE-EDIT: GH I can rap on "wrinkles in time"-- but "war games" all run through Cheney/Rumsfeld/Kissinger IMHO...

BAH..its all cut and Paste. He gets all his thoughts and ideas from one website.

(aparently i quoted the wrong person.)

[Leslie Landry]

Pentagon is fertile ground for discussion. Why did the anti-aircraft missile systems malf that day? Why does the FDR data supposedly from F77 not jibe with the OGCT flight path? What is the meaning of the reports of the scent of cordite? The reports of Pentagon employees reporting "bombs"? Why were medical and emergency response personnel immediately and readily on hand b4 impact? Why was all footage of the alleged Pentagon impact confiscated by the FBI? How is it that Capt. Burlingame designs war games for the Pentagon, one of which has a civilian jetliner crashing into the Pentagon, and then himself goes on to pilot F77 which supposedly crashes into the Pentagon just as it would have happened in the war game he scripted? But it's the clocks that really break things open. The clocks fell from the wall at 9:32. The official time of impact is 9:37, having been moved forward from as late as 9:47. The reason why is because when doing radar reconstructs officials find only one blip coming near enough to the Pentagon to account for an explosion and that blip, um, maneuvered onto Pentagon property at 9:37. Now in Air War Over America, you'll find that that at 9:37 a USAF recon jet reported that he was over the Pentagon and that it looked like the bldg had been bombed, that the Ruskies hand snuck one in on us. Presto, there's your blip and your new impact time. But wait, what about the clocks, stopped at 9:32, the time of actual impact. Here is the glaring hole in the OGCT. You have an explosion that occurred at 9:32 and no blip to be blamed!

Ask him all this and he'll hit you back with more lifted rhetoric.

What I find amazing about it all is that these fuckers can call us names and evade the questions and browbeat us with their empty logic and then probably go home and kiss their wives and play with their kids and live their lives. It astounds me. But then again, their supposedly normal lives are likely as illusory as the bullshit drivel they emit when confronted with the Truth. They probably are gay and molest their kids and can't wait to be locked in underground bunkers with their fellow Luciferians to orgy and enage in outright cannibalism. No more indirect cannibalism. Straight up putting the blood in the mouth and swallowing.

Hey dMole, been a while since you've participated in a discussion on 911T, eh? Doesn't get the endorphins rolling like it used to? What to do when the thrill is gone, baby? I feel ya. Used to be talk on 911 would get me off. Now I need to have two or three conspiracy theories going at the same time just to get hard. Sometimes I just let two separate conspiracy theories jibe, you know, going at one another for a minute or two and I just sit back and watch.

I sent him your lovely letter....I think i may actually use it for other people as well... and i agree, they will all respond with..."your nuts"...and nothing more. it makes them speachless and all the while...they have nothing more to say because they dont have a mind of their own.

[Ricochet]

FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices

Why would they do that if a plane hit them?

[Leslie Landry]

FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices.


Why would they do that if a plane hit them?

Good Question...I think i will let George Take this one...

[Ricochet]

I will be starting another thread soon on the subject of the autopsies. This will be going in there too. I could use some help if someone is interested, pm me. Thanks Leslie, I didn't mean to stray off topic. Now back to your regulary scheduled thread.

[Leslie Landry]

I will be starting another thread soon on the subject of the autopsies. This will be going in there too. I could use some help if someone is interested, pm me. Thanks Leslie, I didn't mean to stray off topic. Now back to your regulary scheduled thread.

LOL no worries (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[George Hayduke]

Good Question...I think i will let George Take this one...

I'd say the argument the Tories will make is that is standard m.o., to search for chemical traces and other evidence that would show how the hijacking might have gone down. But you'll note that no plane parts have been turned over for identification to the proper authorities. And for the first time in history, the investigation into a large civilian plane crash was entirely turned over from TSA/FAA to the FBI.

[dMz]

Hi foxy!

[EDGERUNNER]

Here is a conversation that i started having with a man who was actually able to have an inteligent conversation with me (for the most part ~ we started off a little rushy)[/i]


His Response:
Re: Re: 9/11 Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is currently on trial for war crimes and will probably face death penalty. Bush never said he couldn't link Al Qaeda to 911. The reason Osama Bin Laden is not on the FBI's most wanted list is because no hard evidence has linked him personally to plotting 911 even though Bin Laden also admitted his role in the 911 attacks on October 2004.

This guy is trying to convince people that Osama's confession tape is real. You should slap him in the face with this.

The "confession tape" was magically found in a house in Jalalabad after anti-Taliban forces moved in. It featured a fat Osama laughing and joking about how he'd carried out 9/11. The video was also mistranslated in order to manipulate viewer opinion and featured "Bin Laden" praising two of the hijackers, only he got their names wrong.
This Osama also uses the wrong hand to write with and wears gold rings, a practice totally in opposition to the Muslim faith. Despite the fact that the man in the video looks nothing like Bin Laden, the CIA stood by the video whilst many have declared it an outright fake.

In earlier interviews, Bin Laden had denied responsibility for 9/11, once even deploring the loss of civilian life in the attacks and calling them un-Islamic.

Is the famous “confession video” genuine? Despite Bush’s insistence that the tape is authentic, America’s top academic Bin Laden expert has finally gone on the record, joining numerous other experts.

“It’s bogus,” says Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies program.

Why has the Bush Administration been lying for more than five years by telling us that this preposterously bad hoax is a genuine “confession video”? Lawrence, citing informants in the US intelligence apparatus’s Bin Laden units, said that everyone knows the tape is fake, adding that the hoax has been kept alive because it is politically useful to those who wish to deflect attention from
“conspiracy theories” about 9/11.

If Professor Lawrence is right—and anyone with eyes can see that he is, simply by comparing the overweight impostor in the Fatty Bin Laden bogus confession video to other pictures of Osama Bin Laden—the Bush Administration, by repeatedly citing the tape as authentic, is clearly guilty of obstruction of justice at best, high treason and conspiracy to mass murder at worst.

(IMG:http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1796/binladenvideosuh5.jpg)
Video #3 is the fake confession video.



(IMG:http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6245/200106fatnosegs0.jpg)

Fake Osama on the left.


(IMG:http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5509/fakeosamaaw7.jpg)



The BBC lays this out in the open with the headline Bin Laden threats may boost Bush:

"The commander-in-chief has been under intense pressure in recent weeks, accused of trampling on civil liberties in pursuit of terror suspects. His defence has been that America is a nation at war. So Bin Laden's latest threats to launch new attacks on the US will only serve to underline this argument. "

The White House will also cite the tape when trying to convince allies abroad that the use of tough tactics is justified - even when civilians are killed, as in last week's air raid in Pakistan.

Bin Laden was created by US intelligence , worked with US intelligence in the late 70s and 80s, was used as a patsy by US intelligence before and after 9/11 and is now being used as a manipulative tool of fear by the criminal elite faction currently in power in the US.

The last time Bin Laden appeared was October 2004, exactly three days before the election.

The same headline "Boost for Bush" appeared and some, including Walter Conkite went as far as to suggest that the whole thing was manufactured by Karl rove in order to secure the election for Bush.

Bush immediately took a six point lead and subsequently won the election.

It was the Bush Administration that allowed all members of the Bin Laden family to fly out of America immediately after 911 whilst all other air traffic was grounded.

It was Bush himself who signed document W199I, ordering the FBI to back off investigating the Bin Ladens before 911.
It was George W Bush who went into business with Bin laden's brother in the 1970s.

It is George W Bush's father who is STILL DOING business with the Bin Ladens via the Carlyle Group, an international consulting firm.

FBI Special agent Robert Wright broke down when testifying that he had been gagged and could not reveal the true extent of what he knew about the Bush-Bin Laden connection and 911. his lawyer stepped up and said live on C-Span that "The Bush Family vacations with the Bin Ladens".

The ties run deep and all lead to money, huge amounts of money. This is how the Bushes do business, this is how they have always done business, they own the best enemies money can buy.



More and more experts are now coming forward with the same opinion. Every time a new tape is released it seems to become shorter and more vague as if whoever is making them is running out of material to work with. LMAO!

If it is conceivable that there is one group of fundamentalist individuals who wish to change the way we live because "they hate our freedom", then it is equally as conceivable that there is another group of richer, more sophisticated fundamentalists that wish to do the same thing themselves and will use the first group as a cover for what they do.

They have groomed Bin Laden for their own ends and will continue to use his image (whether he is dead or not) until they no longer have a cause to, this is simply another example of his usefulness in the fake war on terror.



Since the FBI now tells us that Osama Bin Laden is “not wanted for 9/11” because there is “no hard evidence” connecting him to the 9/11 attacks, and since US intelligence personnel all know the “confession tape” is a Bush Administration hoax, it should not be difficult to nail the perpetrators of this outrageous cover-up of the crime of the century.

It is time for Congress or an appropriate judicial authority to mount an investigation of the Fatty Bin Laden bogus confession video.

Where did this tape come from? Who was responsible for the
administration’s claim that it is authentic, despite widespread knowledge in relevant intelligence agencies that it is bogus?

If Bruce Lawrence is correct in asserting that US intelligence personnel know the tape is fake, we need to put them, along with Bush and Cheney, under oath and find out why our government has been lying so outrageously for more than five years in order to obstruct justice by shielding the real perpetrators of 9/11.

Please email your congressional representatives with the subject header “investigate bogus Bin Laden ‘confession video’ NOW!”

This post has been edited by EDGERUNNER: Jun 4 2008, 01:56 PM

[EDGERUNNER]

Btw, Hi all.

I am new to these forums and am glad it exists. So far I have been arguing for 9/11 Truth in other forums I have been involved with for years. And have mostly been met with open hostility. So it is a breath of fresh air to discuss these issues with others who seek the truth.

[dMz]

Hello and welcome Edgerunner.

This Debate section has been fairly "lively" lately if you catch my drift. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There is a lot of good research going on in many of the other fourms, too.

EDIT: And GH- I just barely found your edited reply above. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) You're twisted buddy, and it takes one to know one.

[KP50]

Leslie, I would have pulled him up after this.

Re: 9/11 First off I'm not exactly referring to you when I say conspiracy theorist. I'm mostly talking about the people who came up with these theories. Let me give you an example. Do you know who originally came up with the theory that a missile hit the Pentagon instead of Flight 77? It wasn't a scientist or an expert witness it was a controversial French auther named Thierry Meyssan. He made the original claim of that it couldn't have been flight 77 that hit the pentagon because the hole didn't match the wingspan. What he didn't say was that the 12ft hole came from the landing gear and the larger hole that came from the fuselage was 75ft because one wing hit the ground and the other was sheared off on impact. He also ignored the fact that hundreds of eyewitnesses saw the plane and DNA evidence matching the passangers was recovered at the crash site. Yes it is true that not all video tapes of Flight 77 have been released. The reason why is because its criminal evidence which never gets released to the public during an investigaion. Simply the fact that the pentagon hasn't yet released all its tapes doesn't automatically prove a missile hit the pentagon, especially with all the evidence proving otherwise.

1. If one wing hit the ground, where is the hole in the ground and where is the wing? There were many photos taken before the Pentagon roof collapsed, it shouldn't be too hard to find.
2. If the other wing was sheared off, where is it?

[dMz]

He Writes
Don't worry I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've heard every single 911 conspiracy and I've seen every 911 conspiracy website and its all based on cherry picked facts that ignore anything that doesn't support its target conclusion. Its the exact same way moon landing deniers try to support their argument. Show me real hard evidence proving 911 was an inside job. Evidence that will get our government prosecuted.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/h...ralization.html

Also Known as: Fallacy of Insufficient Statistics, Fallacy of Insufficient Sample, Leaping to A Conclusion, Hasty Induction.
Description of Hasty Generalization

This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:

1. Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
2. Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.

The person committing the fallacy is misusing the following type of reasoning, which is known variously as Inductive Generalization, Generalization, and Statistical Generalization:

1. X% of all observed A's are B''s.
2. Therefore X% of all A's are Bs.

The fallacy is committed when not enough A's are observed to warrant the conclusion. If enough A's are observed then the reasoning is not fallacious.

[elmersglue]

...I like how he brings up Gary Bauer, PNAC manifesto signator. Dude one day signs a manifesto calling for a "cataclysmic" and "catalyzing" event "like a New Pearl Harbor"

There is no statement in the PNAC which calls for such an event.