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WTC1 Victim, Jim Gartenberg, "Core blown out"- calls ABC7 from floor 86 before Collapse

bill
post Dec 12 2008, 10:06 AM
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After listening to this several times I think painter is right on


bastards
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Omega892R09
post Dec 12 2008, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Dec 5 2008, 08:19 AM) *
(0:28) "...a fire door has trapped us..." nonono.gif

Hum?

I wondered about that.

More evidence of remote control?

Were there not doors shut to stop people escaping to the roof?

Well they could not have witnesses from those levels escaping to tell the world what really happened now could they.

Anybody identified these anchors yet?
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dMz
post Dec 12 2008, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (Omega892R09 @ Dec 12 2008, 09:35 AM) *
Anybody identified these anchors yet?

The logo highly suggests [Disney-owned] WABC-7 in New York. More research is needed on the 2 voices/anchors, but here is a bit on WABC 7:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WABC-TV

[That version of the wiki is already archived for posterity].

EDIT: From the Wiki above:
"On September 11, 2001, the transmitter facilities of WABC-TV, as well as eight other local television stations and several radio stations, were destroyed when two hijacked airplanes crashed into and destroyed the World Trade Center towers. In the immediate aftermath, WABC-TV fed its signal to several UHF stations that were still broadcasting (notably WNYE-TV), before establishing temporary facilities in Alpine, New Jersey. The station eventually established transmission facilities at the Empire State Building."
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dMz
post Dec 12 2008, 03:22 PM
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I believe here is where one needs to look, paying attention to names and captions.

http://www.archive.org/details/ABC_TV

It would be interesting to have a better time coordinate on the Jim Gartenberg call.

EDIT: One of the recent comments at that page:

http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109110831-0912

"Daladim - [5.0 out of 5 stars] - December 2, 2008
Subject: What happened here?
I have been watching these videos for some time now, starting at the beginning, up until just around a week ago. Now none of the videos are available?

This doesn't make any sense. Why remove these videos? I want to finish watching what I haven't seen yet. This is the ONLY available information we have today that may have ANY possibility of containing truth. ALL else is just speculation. Don't let this wonderfully archived collection of information disappear from public access."
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SPreston
post Dec 13 2008, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE
Patricia Puma, 33, mom of 3 called home 4 times after crash
Secretary was trapped by a collapsed wall on 86th floor of Tower 1
Date of Death 9/11/2001
By Diane O'donnell
Advance staff writer
Wednesday, 09/26/2001

On the morning of Sept. 11, Patricia Puma spoke to her husband, Kevin, four times before she joined the ranks of the missing in the World Trade Center calamity.

Mr. Puma, who works a 4 p.m.-to-midnight shift, had just returned from dropping the couple's two oldest children off at school when his wife frantically called to say that a fireball had come up the elevator shaft and a wall had come down. Within minutes, Mrs. Puma would learn that the flames had exploded from the first of two planes that slammed into the Twin Towers.

Mrs. Puma, a secretary for Julien J. Studley Inc., was trapped along with Jim Gartenberg, a broker, on the 86th floor of their company's office in Tower 1 when a collapsed wall prevented them from reaching a west-side stairwell that was still passable.

While making phone calls to her husband and 911, she also had the presence of mind to maintain constant contact with her company's main office at 300 Park Ave. to keep them abreast of the unfolding situation.

In her last phone call, she calmly told her husband that she had been advised by Mr. Gartenberg to start breathing through wet clothes and keep the phone lines open. The Pumas exchanged "I love yous" at 9:50 a.m. At 10 a.m. Mr. Puma tried to reach his wife, but discovered that the phones were down.

"I just wanted to hear her voice," he said. "I wanted to be there in Manhattan to pick her up after all this so she wouldn't have to take the ferry and train home."

As Mr. Puma watched his television set in horror, he knew he would never see her again.

Mrs. Puma was described as a family-oriented woman who enjoyed evenings at her Great Kills home watching television and playing games with her children, including her 16-month-old son.

She cherished spending her free time chauffeuring her 10-year-old son and 5-year-old daughter to Little League practice.

Always there for her children's needs, she had already bought their Halloween costumes. And Mrs. Puma was eagerly looking forward to becoming a Daisy Mother for her daughter's kindergarten class at PS 8.

She also enjoyed shopping with her sister and mother and, on a recent grocery trip, the trio began buying baking supplies in preparation for making cookies for the holiday season.

"We were very close. Every Saturday we would go to the Mall," said her mother, Eleanor Wilson. "She was my right-hand person."

Her mother also emphasized how Mrs. Puma would always put the worries of others above her own. "Even during all the craziness (on Sept. 11), her first thoughts were, 'Don't tell my mom,' " said Mrs. Wilson, describing one of the phone conversations between Mrs. Puma and her husband.

Before going to work as a secretary for Julien J. Studley Inc. seven years ago, Mrs. Puma worked for IBJ Schroeder, a foreign currency bank in Lower Manhattan, for four years.

Born Patricia Wilson in the Flatlands section of Brooklyn, the Midwood High School graduate then earned an associate's degree in secretarial science from Kingsborough Community College, both Brooklyn.

Mrs. Puma met her future husband when she was only 14 years old and he was 16. They would be inseparable for the next 19 years, marrying 11 years ago. "We were together almost every day for 19 years," said her husband. "She was more than my wife; she was my best friend."

In addition to her husband, Kevin; her mother, Eleanor, and her daughter and two sons, surviving are her father, William Wilson; a brother, Robert Wilson; a sister, Antoinette Nicholasi, and her grandmother, Millie Palase.

Family and friends will gather on Friday from 5 to 10 p.m. in Colonial Funeral Home, New Dorp.
http://www.silive.com/september11/lr/index...11/lr/puma.html

QUOTE
According to phone call from WTC1 worker Jim Gartenberg--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSVsid7eKE

That's a bit odd since the lowest floor of the outer "impact" area was floor 94:


It's very hard to believe that the crash led to some sort of internal collapse of the core that went down to the 86th floor, given the complete disintegration of the "plane" as it went in (officially).

All in all, this strongly suggests a bombing of the tower from inside.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...;mesg_id=225436

QUOTE
The Washington Post
September 15, 2001, Pg. A01

Fear on the 86th Floor; James Gartenberg Called Friends, Family for Help -- and Then Silence

By Shankar Vedantam

The door that could lead him to the bright Manhattan morning wouldn't budge.

Smoked poured into James Gartenberg's office on the 86th floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center. A moment earlier, the walls shook, the ceiling rattled. There was a huge explosion. With an administrative assistant, Patricia Puma, he pushed at the door, desperate to get to the stairwell, but it was blocked by debris. A fire wall came down and blocked their access to the other stairwell.

The phones, miraculously, were still working. For the next hour, from the moment of impact at 8:45 on Tuesday morning until the lines went dead, Gartenberg, 35, a commercial real estate salesman, talked to his wife, his mother, his two best friends and the personnel manager of his company, sometimes simultaneously, using his cell phone as well as his desk phone. This story is pieced together from their recollections.

He called his wife, Jill, at work on the Upper East Side. She wasn't there yet. It was 8:46.

On the answering machine, Gartenberg's voice was panicky. He said there appeared to be a fire in the building; he didn't know if he could make it out alive. He said he loved her.

He hung up. Puma, 33, tried to call 911, but it was busy. The phone rang. It was Adam Goldman, Gartenberg's best friend. They had been buddies since fourth grade, camp counselors together in summer, best man at each other's wedding. Goldman's wife was expecting her second baby, too. The friends talked three times a day on ordinary days. Although Adam lived in Chicago, he liked to say, "I could be in New York in three hours."

Goldman was calling from his office at Mesirow Financial in Chicago. He had been watching CNBC when the television announced, impossibly, that a plane had gone through the North Tower of the World Trade Center.

"Adam, there's a fire on the floor," Gartenberg screamed. "I'm trapped and can't get out."

Goldman felt his body shaking. He told his friend about the plane.

"It looks like the smoke is going up," said Goldman, staring at the TV and racking his brain about how to help his friend. "You want to get out and go down."

"We can't get out."

"Stay calm," Goldman said.

"I can't stay calm with you, Adam -- I'm afraid. Please get me out of here."

Gartenberg hung up and called the midtown offices of his company, Julien J. Studley Inc., at 300 Park Ave. A receptionist passed him on to Margaret Luberda, the senior vice president for human resources.

Luberda did not know Gartenberg very well -- she had been at the company six months -- but she did know he had recently resigned from the firm and was moving to a company in midtown. In fact, he had told his wife and Goldman that today was his last day.

"Margaret, we're trapped," said Gartenberg, as Luberda recalled.

"What's going on?" she asked. Luberda had not heard the news. Almost simultaneously, someone ran into her office and said a plane had gone through a tower of the World Trade Center. It must have been a prop plane, Luberda thought. Some pilot had probably had a heart attack and lost control.

"Where are you?" she asked.

"In the reception area. The glass is completely blown out. There is no sound from the hallway."

"Go to the fire escape and get out."

"We can't."

"Why?"

"Because there is so much debris in front of the door, I can't get through it."

"You have to try again."

"We can't get through it. It's too heavy."

Luberda put Gartenberg on hold and called 911. The police patched her through to the fire department. She said there were two employees trapped in Suite 8617 of World Trade Center 1. The fireman's voice was confident, an immensely reassuring I'm-in-charge voice. Help was on the way, he said.

Luberda was elated. Her line to Gartenberg had become disconnected. She called back. It was just before 9 a.m.

"They're coming for you, Jim," she said.

While Luberda was off the line, Gartenberg received another call. It was from Andrew Rosen, a friend since freshman year at the University of Michigan. Rosen was two days older, and the duo shared happy memories rooting for the college football team. Rosen was calling from a car phone in Englewood Cliffs, N.J. He had just heard the news on the radio. Gartenberg asked his friend to hunt down evacuation information.

Next, he went on the air with a television station in New York to tell firemen where they could find him.

He called his wife again. She had arrived in the office. They agreed she should go to his mother's house on the Upper East Side, near her office. When Jill Gartenberg stepped onto the street, she saw the plumes of smoke and ash from the two giant cigars to the south. Unbidden, the thought came to her mind: "No one could survive that."

In Florida, Jill Gartenberg's father, Frank Freeberg, was thinking the same thing. He tried to tell from the television picture where the plane had crashed.

"I was trying to count the floors," he said. The plane "seemed pretty darned close to the 86th floor. I was trying to count how many floors were above it."

Gartenberg came back to Luberda, who was on hold as he talked to the others. She congratulated him for an excellent performance on television.

"Margaret, I didn't want to tell them how bad it was," he replied. "I didn't want to worry the other families."

"How's the smoke?" she recalled asking him.

"It's getting worse. Can I put a chair through a window?"

"Let me check with the fire department." A colleague called the fire department as Luberda kept Gartenberg on the line.

"Is the floor hot?" they asked. Luberda relayed the question.

"No."

"Is there smoke coming from the floor?"

"No, it's from the hallway."

Don't break the window, the fireman advised. Luberda gave them Gartenberg's location again.

"They know where you are," she assured him.

Around 9:10, Andrew Rosen called again from New Jersey. He was hoping Gartenberg wouldn't answer. But he did.

"Do you have any evacuation information?" Gartenberg asked.

"I haven't heard anything."

"Keep trying."

The phone rang again. It was Adam Goldman.

"The smoke's getting worse," Gartenberg said. Goldman knew that a second plane had smashed into the South Tower, but decided not to tell his friend.

Back on the line with Luberda, Gartenberg handed the phone to Puma, who said she had spoken with her husband, Kevin.

"How are you doing?" Luberda recalled asking. "Can you breathe?"

"It's hard," said Puma.

"Do you have water with you?

They did.

"Douse your jacket with water and breathe through it," instructed Luberda.

Gartenberg asked whether they should douse all their clothes. Luberda didn't think so.

And then more debris began to fall. Luberda's confidence began to waver. She hid her fears.

"Can you take cover?" she asked.

"We can move under the reception desk," Gartenberg said.

So they crept under the desk, taking with them the lifelines of the telephones. They called other employees. Gartenberg called his mother and spoke to her and his wife. It was about a half-hour after the crash. Jill Gartenberg noticed a sudden calmness in his voice.

"Stay low," she said.

He told her they were trying to avoid the smoke, but they wanted to stay near the door to call out to firemen.

Adam Goldman called back. It was getting difficult to get calls into New York. The switchboards were overloaded.

"I love you," said Gartenberg. "You're my best friend. I don't know if I'm going to get out of it. You have to take care of everybody for me."

Goldman was not ready to give up.

Rosen called, too. Gartenberg was now crying. He and Puma didn't have the strength between them to move the debris that blocked the door. The smoke was getting worse.

Gartenberg called his wife again. Crouching beneath the desk on the 86th floor of the burning building, he told his wife all that she and their 2-year-old daughter meant to him.

"I love you," he told her. "I love Nicole."

"I love you, too."

Gartenberg told Luberda, who had been on one line since before 9, that it was getting very smoky.

Then the line went dead. Luberda's digital phone said the call had lasted 58 minutes. She didn't note the time but would later deduce it was 9:45 or 9:50.

Adam Goldman in Chicago and Andrew Rosen in New Jersey talked to each other when it was no longer possible to get through to the World Trade Center. About 15 minutes after Luberda's line went dead, the friends saw one tower collapse.

"At first I didn't know it was not his building," said Goldman. "Then I remembered that since his was the first one that was hit, it was the second that fell."

It was 10:05.

The friends watched and waited. At 10:28, Gartenberg's building collapsed, disintegrating at the top and peeling downward in giant strips of crumbling concrete and molten steel.

It should have been the end of hope. For Jill Gartenberg, it was.

"The building collapsed and then I knew he wasn't calling back," she said.

Rosen felt the same.

But Goldman refused to give up hope. And then, more than 24 hours after the buildings collapsed, as if to reward him for his persistence, news reports about people who had escaped from the building mentioned a survivor named Louis Lesce.

He had climbed down from the 86th floor.

He said that there had been five others with him, two women and three men.

Goldman raced to his computer and tracked down Lesce on the Internet. Lesce, 64, had just gotten home from the hospital when Goldman called.

He said he knew the two women were receptionists at the Port Authority office on the same floor, but did not know the men. He said the group had been trapped by the smoke, too, but Port Authority security staff had eventually come for them. He told how, on the way down, he had passed firemen going up.

The timing and description didn't seem to match what Goldman knew of Gartenberg's situation. Goldman tried to find floor plans of the building to see if his friend was in a different section of the floor.

"He must have had an opportunity to get out," he insisted.

Goldman kept calling Gartenberg's cell phone. The phone rang and went to voice mail. If the phone had been destroyed, Goldman reasoned, it wouldn't ring.

"I hold out hope that he made it down, that elevators might have been working," he said. "Even if he was on the floor when it did collapse, maybe he rode the wave and survived."

Goldman cited reports of a man on the 81st floor who "rode the wave" of the building as it fell and emerged alive. "They say whole rooms of furniture are intact in there," said Goldman.

Everyone has different strategies of dealing with grief, he said. Others might not want to build up their hopes and see them dashed: "I just don't want to slip into the other camp of believing anything else," he said. Gartenberg may be "currently unidentified and in the hospital. There are miracles to all of this and he should be one of them."

"It was his last day of work," Goldman pleaded. "He shouldn't have been there."
http://vedantam.com/gartenberg09-2001.html
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SPreston
post Dec 13 2008, 11:33 AM
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Here is an ABC person who talked to Jim Gartenberg. Maybe he knows who the two ABC anchors were.

QUOTE
“He sounded scared”
Janib Abreu, Sports Anchor, WABC-TV, New York
I knew that I wasn’t going to be doing the Michael Jordan comeback
story for that evening’s newscast. I went to the assignment desk.
The phones were ringing off the hook. A woman called. It was the first
call I answered. She said she had a couple of friends who were in one
of the towers. “You have to call Jim and Patricia and help them. Please
tell them what to do,” she said. She gave me Jim Gartenberg’s office
phone number. He was in One World Trade Center.
I called. Jim answered. He asked me what he needed to do. I
couldn’t fathom what he was going through. I couldn’t relate to it.
He sounded scared to me. He said he was on the eighty-sixth floor. I
told him he would be okay, that help was coming. I was scared. I
asked Jim if he would talk to our news anchors live on the air. He
said, “Yes.”
I kept him on hold for a second and told him not to worry, help
was coming. He kept asking me what he should do. Jim was interviewed
on the air, and I didn’t talk to him again. I was hoping that firefighters
would reach him and his coworker Patricia in time.
I should have just told Jim to run like hell.

http://www.allisongilbert.com/pdfs/Coverin...trophe_Ch_1.pdf
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Omega892R09
post Dec 13 2008, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE
This doesn't make any sense. Why remove these videos? I want to finish watching what I haven't seen yet. This is the ONLY available information we have today that may have ANY possibility of containing truth. ALL else is just speculation. Don't let this wonderfully archived collection of information disappear from public access."

Hum!

Another government footsoldier has dropped in here to see what's cooking and gone away to cleanup.gif more OCT embarrassment.
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SwingDangler
post Dec 15 2008, 01:27 PM
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Fear on the 86th Floor; James Gartenberg Called Friends, Family for Help -- and Then Silence-
The friends watched and waited. At 10:28, Gartenberg's building collapsed, disintegrating at the top and peeling downward in giant strips of crumbling concrete and molten steel.


Somebody forgot to tell Shankar Vedantam of The Washington Post, on September 15, 2001, Pg. A01 that there was no molten steel at the WTC site! nonono.gif nonono.gif
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onesliceshort
post Apr 1 2009, 10:33 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Dec 6 2008, 11:49 AM) *
Bump, because this is such a sad story, and SO KEY to understanding this entire mess...

The saddest part of this is that the guy was using his own personal training to stay calm and give the outside world an idea of what was going on. Maybe the poor guy knew he had no escape and was trying to give as much info as possible. The guy was the epitomy of everything these evil swine have spat on. It´s disgusting.
BTW why did he phone CNN? Thanks.
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dMz
post Apr 1 2009, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Apr 1 2009, 09:33 AM) *
It´s disgusting.
BTW why did he phone CNN? Thanks.

Unfortunately the late Mr. Gartenberg isn't around any more to ask. Perhaps you could ask CNN. nonono.gif
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DoYouEverWonder
post Apr 1 2009, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Dec 8 2008, 03:41 PM) *
(0:49) "...things are under control at the moment, and the danger has not increased."

[Supports Chief Orio Palmer's "2 lines" radio call fairly well, I think. It does not support NIST's raging office fire assertions very well though.]

EDIT (01:49) [Mr. Gartenberg] : "Hello...." [as his call is being "mixed down" in studio apparently]


The 86th Floor was 8 floors below the impact zone.



There's no visible damage to the exterior of WTC 1 below the impact zone floors. In order to blow out the core, this far away, requires a lot of explosives.




Interesting screen cap of the Naudet Bros' film. There's a big red fire ball coming out the south side of WTC 1, a number of floors below the impact zone on the north side. Looks like a separate event from the main one but at exactly the same time. Maybe the columns were really made out of butter?

Also, something else is going off in the very top, where the super strong hat trusses were.

This post has been edited by DoYouEverWonder: Apr 1 2009, 06:33 PM
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achimspok
post Sep 18 2009, 05:21 PM
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Some might miss that Gartenberg describes the plane impact.

Gartenberg: "I think that happened around 8:45 ... I heard a noise, felt whole building shaking, the glass was blown out... and the interior core ..."

The fuel-air-explosion generated an overpressure of about 3psi - enough to compress the air in the elevator shafts down to the 77th floor and upwards as well. That overpressure surely cause a lot of damage to glass, gypsum walls and elevator doors. Some people were burnt near the elevator shaft at these floors e.g. Carmen Griffith at the 78th floor.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/america.r...er/charles.html

QUOTE
In order to blow out the core, this far away, requires a lot of explosives.


How far away?


The fireball just appears low due to perspective. It just extends into the depth.

The smoke from the 108th/109th floor (MER) was probably caused by the same overpressure in the HVAC shafts.
The shafts at the upper MER should be comparable to the 75/76th floor.

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van D
post Dec 29 2009, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Dec 6 2008, 05:41 PM) *
(0:49) "...things are under control at the moment, and the danger has not increased."

[Supports Chief Orio Palmer's "2 lines" radio call fairly well, I think. It does not support NIST's raging office fire assertions very well though.]

EDIT (01:49) [Mr. Gartenberg] : "Hello...." [as his call is being "mixed down" in studio apparently]



Hey, i'm a sound designer from Norway. sorry for poor english. I will do my best. I just ran the audio track truth some de-noise programs to hear if there is some thing in the backgrond (like producers giving instructions and so). In he pause, when Jim stops talking and say "hello" an just before, is the some change i he backgrond.

Jim: "Windows beeing blown out"

ABC Woman: "where were you..."

Jim: "Police scha..."

Background: [Phone ring in back ground]

Jim: "...the core of the building..."

Woman in back ground(in between Jim): "...We have... ...thruth... ...a phonecall...

Jim stops talking

Woman #1 in back ground: "... right now. "


Woman #2 in back ground: "And we are cooming truth the city"

radio (male), interrupt: "..takkinngting..."

Jim: "Hello?"

Background noise disapere (can have to do with compresion with long release time on the signal)

ABS man: "eeee, We will..."




no smoking gun there...


The audio is in poor quality. if i had the original it tape it...



if any of you have some audio material i should look at, say so.


grait work you you are doing.


Rune van Deurs

This post has been edited by van D: Dec 29 2009, 10:16 PM
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Paul
post Jan 5 2010, 03:50 AM
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Right at the moment i am having a little debate with JREFS about the reported explosions

Should i throw this at them?

Actaully it really is a waste of time arguing with idiots in denial?


http://govtloyalistsite.org/showthread.php...3536&page=1

rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
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albertchampion
post Jan 5 2010, 08:56 PM
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never waste your time arguing with the ignorati.

they will never admit that they are wrong, that you may be correct. therefore, it is a non-zero sum game. non-zero sum games are not worth playing. they are just another form of mental masturbation.

go do something else, move on with your life. for nothing that you write on any of these sites is going to change the "official" story. that story is carved in immutable marble, now. that carving will not be altered.

in a certain sense, this board is much like my former blogspot. a vanity site. that will please some of us as we observe the accuracies of our effort to interpret the events of that day in september[and other days], but that will result in no changes to the official story. the state and its pravdas, its isvestias, will continue to govern the manipulation of the illusions.

if you want to persist in challenging the state, if you get close to revealing something that it really wants buried, start living your life very carefully. andif you fly commercially, DON'T CHECK YOU LUGGAGE!
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nitatutt
post Feb 11 2010, 01:05 AM
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albertchampion:
in a certain sense, this board is much like my former blogspot. a vanity site. that will please some of us as we observe the accuracies of our effort to interpret the events of that day in september[and other days], but that will result in no changes to the official story. the state and its pravdas, its isvestias, will continue to govern the manipulation of the illusions.


And the audio proves your conclusion albert; still, I would hate to leave this life without the realization that the disseminated "truth" is a complete lie.
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albertchampion
post Feb 11 2010, 01:44 AM
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yes, i understand that sentiment. and, of course, i continue what might be considered quixotic efforts to uncover the truths of the past.

getting at the truths for me is like the painful molar that cannot be ignored, that i continue to massage with my tongue.

but, over the years, i have learned that very few want to go where i care to go. the loss of a constitutional republic concerns them not in the least.

and this is the perspective of the majority of the citizenry, i find.

oh, there are exceptions to be sure[individuals on this board, for instance], but in the main, we have been marginalized as "conspiracy theorists".

one thing that i have encountered that intrigues me is how this "marginalization" is imposed by individuals who have no specific statist agenda.

it reminds me of a brother of a friend who teaches social sciences at a very hoity-toity country day school in the suburbs of sfo. and has taught there for almost 30 years. some years ago, my friend wrote his brother about my questioning of the "official conspiracy theory". which elicited a response that used a high school history teacher's characterization of any individual questioning fdr's knowledge of the attack on pearl harbor as being somehow demented.

i must confess, i unloaded on this "teacher". i won't go into the details of my "unloading", but it was tantamount to saying that if i had a child at marin country day school, based on his understanding of the history of the advent of the pacific war, i would be withdrawing my child from that school, and the historical ignorance that it seemed to be promoting.

lamentably, this level of historical ignorance reigns in the usa. and as i have learned, anyone who contests the agitprop is ostracized. not only by the amerikan right. but also by the amerikan left. both flanks of amerikan politics foist illusions on the populace.

as i may have said some years ago, there was this precept from the greeks: "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king".

in this era, in this culture, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is ignored. perhaps even gitmoed".
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painter
post Feb 11 2010, 01:57 AM
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QUOTE (albertchampion @ Feb 10 2010, 10:44 PM) *
in this era, in this culture, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is ignored. perhaps even gitmoed".


No doubt. In the land of the blind, eyesight (even w/ only 1 eye) is an unproven conspiracy theory.
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amazed!
post Apr 12 2014, 04:19 PM
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And all these years later, it seems likely that part of what Gartenberg saw, heard and felt was nuclear devices being detonated.
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