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Chemtrail Footage Leaves Much Less Doubt That They Are Real, merged, edited title

amazed!
post Nov 9 2008, 12:27 PM
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Bill, what kind of aircraft did you observe dispensing in formation?

This stuff about patents makes perfect sense. I can easily understand that they might be attempting to modify the global warming dynamic. What I don't understand is that if their purposes are benign, why has this not been presented to the MSM?

As for the "time to disappear" on the various contrails, it seems there would be all sorts of variables in any such calculation? Ambient conditions AND the chemical composition of the fuel being burned.

Maybe I've missed it, but it seems that there must be quite a few air crew members involved in this program and that somebody somewhere would have come forward with information, even in an anonymous capacity?
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dMz
post Nov 9 2008, 01:07 PM
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On the flight crew(s) (or not, esp. in the 24/7, tedium aspect) amazed,

Here is IMHO the simplest and most logical "workaround" at post #9:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10671830
-------------------
Also from lunk's post #12 above:
http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v35/...0035-000136.htm

""Near the day of the Great Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."
~~pre-Columbian Hopi prophecy

The inside military codeword for the pilots who man the planes that spray the chemtrails is
"Sky Spiders"

Many of the chemtrails have been found to contain polymers that act like spider webs. "
-------------------
As far as the "couldn't keep the fleet(s) secret" (which they really haven't entirely on the white B707's?)- ever hear of these?

Post #6:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10756227

EDIT: Again, the "unidentifiable" for several days in the chart:

Flight Explorer Confirmed Unidentifiable Leaving Highly Persistent Trails
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml

EDIT2: On the condensation thing amazed, it's mainly temperature, pressure, and humidity content. Other chemicals present could either help or hurt in condensation. Dew point and triple point(s) are very important here.

http://physics.uwstout.edu/WX/Notes/ch4notes.htm

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclecondensation.html

This is probably the best page on water chemistry that I've seen anywhere:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html
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dMz
post Nov 9 2008, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (bill @ Nov 9 2008, 05:56 AM) *
There was no dramatic increase in air traffic 12 years ago

if anything the modern jets are significantly cleaner than the jets of 25 years ago

yet 25 years ago lingering chemtrails never happened

The following NASA document outlines a study on aircraft emissions and the "2015 plan" Bill:

NASA Year 2015 Aircraft Emission Scenario
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntr..._1998120133.pdf

Linked from Jet Engines thread in Aircraft:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10747462
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bill
post Nov 9 2008, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 9 2008, 10:27 AM) *
Bill, what kind of aircraft did you observe dispensing in formation?


amazed:

It was about 5 years ago that I saw the 2 planes in formation near Rock Falls IL while driving the I 88 tollway

They made about a 40 degree turn to the right then about 5 miles later a 40 degree turn to the left

The planes were about 5 miles away when I noticed them --close enough to see that there were 2 planes but not close enough to identify the type

I did get their altitude via the odometer trick

35,000 feet

A number of times I have been a passenger in a airliner and recognized a chemtrail to to the side of our track either above or below

At the same time I have seen quite a few planes within a few 1000 feet vertically and they were not leaving Chemtrails at the same time I could see chemtrails out the window of the plane -- I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that it is not an atmospheric/altitude effect.

I fly alot, (I have almost a million miles just on American) and I just love to look out the window

I never observed chemtrails until about 12 or 13 years ago.


and for the record I think the name "chemtrails" is a very poor description and does a lot to cast doubt on the reality/abnormality of the phenomenon
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dMz
post Nov 9 2008, 04:30 PM
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Since the "fallout" has been mainly metals and metal oxides- "metrails" then? dunno.gif
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grizz
post Nov 9 2008, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE (bill @ Nov 9 2008, 12:24 PM) *
I never observed chemtrails until about 12 or 13 years ago.

Exactly the same in my case. I have recently talked to my buddy who was there the first time we saw them, a big X hanging in the eastern sky above the Mojave Desert. Late '96. We watched it and talked about it at the time, because neither of us had ever seen anything like that before.

A few months ago I was watching a DVD of my Mama's home movies from when she visited me there in Feb '95. She wakes up early and would take movies of the sunrise. One lengthy passage shows a partial chemtrail lingering in the east. She kept zooming in on it, as though it was odd. And it was odd back then.

QUOTE
and for the record I think the name "chemtrails" is a very poor description and does a lot to cast doubt on the reality/abnormality of the phenomenon

It gives it the tinfoil hat taint, just like truth movement. People expect us to have the truth. But we are only looking for it.

These were taken on Jan 1, 2008 in the northern part of California's central valley. Pretty.









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dMz
post Nov 10 2008, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE (Oceans Flow @ Nov 9 2008, 06:30 PM) *
One lengthy passage shows a partial chemtrail lingering in the east. She kept zooming in on it, as though it was odd. And it was odd back then.
...
It gives it the tinfoil hat taint, just like truth movement. People expect us to have the truth. But we are only looking for it.

Precisely OF. Another review- from optics and psychology this time.

http://www.umpi.maine.edu/~stump/perception.html

Sensation- Sensation is the process by which our sense receptors and nervous system receive stimulus energies from our environment.

Perception- Perception is the process by which the brain selects, organizes, and interprets sensory information.

Absolute Threshold- The absolute threshold is the minimum stimulation needed to detect a particular stimulus 50 percent of the time.

Subliminal- A stimulus that is subliminal is one that is below the threshold for conscious awareness. Limen is the Latin word for "threshold." A stimulus that is subliminal is one that is sub- ("below") the limen, or threshold.

Difference Threshold (JND)- The difference threshold, or just noticeable difference (JND), is the minimum difference in two stimuli that a subject can detect 50 percent of the time. For example; how many degrees of a rise in temperature is needed before a person notices the temperature has changed?

Weber's Law- Weber's law states that the just noticeable difference between two stimuli is a constant minimum proportion. (At least 5% of the original stimulus, less and you wouldn't notice)

Sensory Adaptation- Sensory adaptation refers to the decreased sensitivity that occurs with continued exposure to an unchanging[?] stimulus. Example: When she entered the movie theater she could barely see well enough to find an open seat. If few moments she was able to see everyone in the theater - sensory adaptation had taken place.

EDIT: I suppose I should add:
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm

"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them."
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lunk
post Nov 10 2008, 01:27 AM
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The human eye only notices things that move.

These chem-trails are just laid down in place,
hard to notice, since they move so slow,
after they are viewed.
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p.w.rapp
post Nov 10 2008, 03:54 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Nov 9 2008, 12:31 PM) *
To recap, we've got photographic evidence at posts #4, 6, and 9 above. We've got the firsthand observations of lunk, OF, and I over the space of several years. We've got at least 2 known US patents, the "powder contrail" one of which dates to 1975 and was assigned to the US Navy (and the patent numbers usually "expand" by referencing others in research). You've got 2 scientists telling you quite plainly, and I gave you the chemicals used along with Carnicom's condensation equations with his observation data. You've got a link above to an independent lab's HEPA filter analysis that found barium, aluminum, and other pollutants exceeding acceptable levels. You've got the USAF paper Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025.

Many/most of you have got these lingering "trails" right outside your windows and doors where you merely need to look up and see them, often every day.

Finally, you've got the USAF (EPA, NASA, MSM, and a few others) telling you no, these are an "atmospheric condensation effect" and a "conspiracy theory hoax." Oh yes, the USAF wouldn't provide JP-8 samples when requested for analysis by Discovery Channel. Beware partial truths, and I'll trust the patents and the technology. I won't forget this DoD/administration's past behavior either.

Just for KA, the USAF/EPA/NASA "CT" stance is available at the Wiki: wink.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory


Thanks for moving the chemtrail threads into Alt.Theories. This one may remain in debate.

And thanks for your recap, because it safes me time to give you my promised statement.

QUOTE
we've got photographic evidence at posts #4, 6, and 9 above. We've got the firsthand observations of lunk, OF, and I over the space of several years.


As I said many times, this has always been you chemtrailers main argument:
"look at the photos, they are real because we have personally taken them (which I honestly believe BTW), look out your own window... etc....

...but this in no f-in proof for the CHEM in the trails !

QUOTE
We've got at least 2 known US patents

Dont't say we have got 2 US patents, when one of them is a 'Contrail Generator' for aircraft target vehicles, which has obviousely NOTHING to do with the alleged chemtrails you observe. To believe that such equipment is used for spraying whatever substance on a large scale is preposterous, even more so for everybody, who is familiar with the strict regulations and procedures of aircraft maintainance.

Of course then you turn round and say "it must be in the jet-fuel" because the USAF has refused to provide samples (to whom?)

You know, the 'poison in the jet-fuel' variant was always the most logic theoretical way for me to get a massive contamination (and i.e. climate changing effect as per your 2nd patent).
But then we have the problem, that most of the chemtrailer's horror substances apt for mind control and(or) depopulation, incuding melanin and most probably aluminium and barium would burn or oxidate in the jet engine.
And I doubt, that a high enough percentage of i.e. aluminium in the jet-fuel would not dramatically reduce the TBO of the engine or even cause damage or at least residua, that would be detected during the next maintainance.

@bill
to compare me with someone, who denies the controlled demolition of the WTC is a deadly insult.
You are even a pilot -
- although, you are not flying high enough to see the real 'chemtrails' (exept on one occasion in the good old times of Pilots for 9/11 Truth Forum wink.gif )

bye
Zap
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dMz
post Nov 10 2008, 08:49 AM
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Well Zap re-iterating, the full text of US Patent 3,899,144 was granted August 12, 1975 for "Powder contrail generation" (not for quite-normal, condensed vapor phase "contrails"). In context, the patent reads again,

"SUMMARY

The present invention is for a powder generator requiring no heat source to emit a "contrail" with sufficient visibility to aid in visual acquisition of an aircraft target vehicle and the like. The term "contrail" was adopted for convenience in identifying the visible powder trail of this invention. Aircraft target vehicles are used to simulate aerial threats for missile tests and often fly at altitudes between 5,000 and 20,000 feet at speeds of 300 and 400 knots or more. The present invention is also suitable for use in other aircraft vehicles to generate contrails or reflective screens for any desired purpose. "

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...ry=PN%2F3899144

The "target vehicles" application is but one use for the device.
---------------
Moving onto metal oxides- these have already been combusted (or were never reduced from the oxide in manufacture). The links are already listed above (and plenty of links will follow).

Titanium dioxide
http://www.micronmetals.com/titanium_dioxide.htm
CAS 13463-67-7
Melting Point C 1830-1850
Boiling Point C 2500-3000

Aluminum oxide
http://www.micronmetals.com/aluminum_oxide.htm
CAS 1344-28-1
Melting Point C 2072
Boiling Point C 2980
---
Silica/Silicon Dioxide
http://www.concentric.net/~ctkang/sio2.shtml
Melting Point, crystalline 1477C
Melting Point, fused 1713C

http://www.answers.com/topic/silicon-dioxide
CAS number 7631-86-9
Melting point 1650 (75) C
Boiling point 2230 C

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/SaiLee.shtml

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinf...ety/MSDS406.pdf
---
Barium (elemental)
http://www.noblemind.com/search.exe?keywor...Point&var=2
Melting point 725 C

http://www.noblemind.com/search.exe?keywor...Point&var=2
Boiling point 1640 C
----
Barium oxide
http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0778.htm
CAS # 1304-28-5
FIRE Not combustible.
INHALATION RISK: Evaporation at 20C is negligible; a harmful concentration of airborne particles can, however, be reached quickly when dispersed.
Boiling point: about 2000C
Melting point: 1923C

Density: 5.7 g/cm
-----
Now for Jet A combustion, from my post #4 on another thread:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10738548

Ummm, not such a good idea- "mostly Al and..." in those jet engines. If we take a nearly-stoichiometric hydrocarbon Jet A combustion near 1800F [~982.22 C] (something which aircraft manufacturers are being pressured ever closer toward, for both economic/efficiency and "global climate change" reasons).

[1800 F source at NIST and elsewhere]
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

---------------
So elemental barium should melt, but not even boil at Jet A combustion temperatures. The oxides should merely continue through as particulate matter (from my reading of the later patent). The jet engine heat could actually act as a metal reducing agent, depending upon oxygen availability (as N2 is a relatively "inert" gas). My research so far indicates that jet engines have many specialized alloys, coatings, and surface treatments to minimize metal erosion/corrosion and for other considerations.

http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topi...p/ch9/redox.php

Here is a good chart comparing particulate size:
http://www.peakpureair.com/particlesize.htm

http://www.deq.state.ne.us/Publica.nsf/0/4...KTDY/02-125.pdf

EDIT: And a couple of definitions:
http://www.answers.com/topic/aerosol

http://www.answers.com/topic/particulate
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lunk
post Nov 10 2008, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE
Current jet fuel can include up to six additives for anti-icing and other functions, Ballal said. 'But the need for these additives creates a major logistics headache on the battlefield as well as for commercial operators that travel to remote locations. In addition, they must be procured from highly specialized vendors, which makes them expensive. We hope to develop fuel that will require fewer additives and still perform well, especially in extreme hot and cold temperatures.'


http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/3064...l+from+coal.htm

emphasis mine

hmm, 2 questions;
What are the additives?
Who are the highly specialized vendors?
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lunk
post Nov 10 2008, 10:08 AM
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A little more on this population reduction idea being a reason behind the chemtrails.

This may have more to do with exposure to actual jet fuel, curious though,
...of all the things it could effect...

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0

QUOTE
These results demonstrate a significant effect of JP-8 exposure on protein expression, particularly in protein expression in the rodent testis
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dMz
post Nov 10 2008, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Nov 8 2008, 05:58 PM) *
----------------------------------
Stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming

http://www.google.com/patents?id=MJUjAAAAEBAJ&dq=5003186

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...ry=PN%2F5003186
------------------------------------
Here is the analysis from a HEPA filter showing disproportionate levels of metals and metal oxides:

Chemtrails: Analysis From A Hepa Air Filter, This is what we are breathing
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=13334

Also see my posts #35 and #37 from June 2008 here:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10744033

More info at:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=10773

Following the last 2 links on EPA (#35 and... link) and USAF refusals respectively, specifically my referenced post #8:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10724112

"...it was "Best Evidence: Chemical Contrails" from 2002 as I recall. Of course, the USAF refused to provide samples of its fuels for independent testing. The "independent tests" basically just tested for aluminum in a 5-gallon sample of commercial Jet A from a Minnesota airport and didn't find much.

The show did admit to needles of aluminum chaff being dumped by the USAF.

Of course "Best Evidence" did not mention the 2 US Patents that I have linked above.
Also no mention of EPA's refusal to test the samples submitted for testing (see www.carnicom.com and "Aerosol Crimes")."


I have linked the videos of the "Best Evidence" show elsewhere here before- perhaps lunk remembers seeing the videos. Here's another short one from my links above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWux4e5BxOk

EDIT: Here are links to the "Best Evidence" videos, again:
http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/discovery.html
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amazed!
post Nov 10 2008, 10:55 AM
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Well some interesting stuff here. Kay Simmons' piece on chemtrails in particular.

Certainly if it is documented that Barium and Aluminum have been recovered in samples of some trails, that is compelling evidence.

As for the cloud formation pictures above, I can remember FAA weather books, pilot training books, from the 50's and 60's showing nearly identical cloud formations.

I began spending a fair amount of time in the flight levels back in the 80's, and noticed then that sometimes contrails are present, and sometimes not. Obviously altitude related, it seems related to temperature and humidity or some meteorlogical factors.
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dMz
post Nov 10 2008, 11:34 AM
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"Condensation" of exhaust vapor?

http://www.carnicom.com/newspray3.htm

http://www.carnicom.com/mega1e.jpg



http://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/Image_Library/index.htm

http://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/Image...roken_links.jpg



rolleyes.gif

EDIT: A troll states that this bottom "broken_links.jpg" photo has been photoshopped, but as yet has failed to provide any supporting evidence other than "troll say so." The EXIF data did not indicate "Photoshop branding" on secondary (and tertiary) examination. This is an internet-sourced photo after all- take your complaints to http://www.willthomas.net (or other off-forum sources) if you have a problem with them.
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bill
post Nov 10 2008, 11:52 AM
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http://www.nutech2000.com/webtext/govbas/c...chemusa.htm#COA

sorry if this has been posted already I haven't had time lately to follow all the links

this report has some information I have not seen before

especially the connection with Barium salts and RADAR enhancements for military use


Here is a picture from the above link that is difficult to explain

I have seen this exact thing here in the Midwest numerous times

I now am carrying my trusty Canon power shot with me at all times. hopefully I'll record one of these, they aren't all that uncommon

Or maybe the pilot just wanted to see what happens when he shut the engines down for a few seonds

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking We are going to shut down our engines for a few seconds just to see what happens. Please remain seated with your seatbelts fastened and stay calm. We are pretty sure they will restart OK. This is only a test. And thank you for flying CT Airlines"




This is too funny we both posted the same pic of the broken 'trail

This post has been edited by bill: Nov 10 2008, 11:53 AM
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bill
post Nov 10 2008, 12:03 PM
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I hereby make a offer of $1000 to go towards the rental of a bizjet to get some chemtrail samples

Anyone here got some connections/ratings to carry this out ?

anyone else interested in donating ?
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dMz
post Nov 10 2008, 05:17 PM
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Looking again at US patent 5,003,186:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...ry=PN%2F5003186

Stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming

Inventors: Chang; David B. (Tustin, CA), Shih; I-Fu (Los Alamitos, CA)
Assignee: Hughes Aircraft Company (Los Angeles, CA)
Appl. No.: 07/513,145
Filed: April 23, 1990

"...2. The method of claim wherein said material comprises one or more of the oxides of metals.

3. The method of claim 1 wherein said material comprises aluminum oxide.

4. The method of claim 1 wherein said material comprises thorium oxide. ..."
--------
http://www.webelements.com/thorium/
" Brief description: thorium is a source of nuclear power. There is probably more untapped energy available for use from thorium in the minerals of the earth's crust than from combined uranium and fossil fuel sources. Much of the internal heat the earth has been attributed to thorium and uranium.
...
Thorium oxide has a melting point of 3300C, the highest of all oxides. Only a few elements, such as tungsten, and a few compounds, such as tantalum carbide, have higher melting points."
-----
http://www.americanelements.com/thox.html

Boiling point 4400 deg_C
-----
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/ehs/labguide/sec_9.htm

"Uranium and thorium compounds, such as uranyl acetate, uranyl nitrate, uranyl formate, uranium oxide, thorium nitrate and thorium oxide, are considered radioactive waste, rather than chemical waste. See the Waste Disposal web page for more information.

Chemical wastes that are combined with radioisotopes are considered mixed waste. Contact the Radiation Safety Officer at xxx-xxxx before generating this type of waste. Mixed waste is difficult to dispose and should be minimized to the extent possible."

-----
LOTSA CANCER here:

http://hazard.com/msds/tox/f/q134/q80.html
-----
MSDS is somewhat vague- hmmm....

http://www.espimetals.com/msds%27s/thoriumoxide.pdf
-----
http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles...ce_id=1314-20-1

Health Hazard Reference(s)
Recognized: Carcinogen P65
Suspected: Gastrointestinal or Liver Toxicant DIPA KLAA ZIMM

Hazard Rankings

More hazardous than most chemicals in 2 out of 8 ranking systems.
Ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds (worst 10%) to human health.
-----
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dMz
post Nov 11 2008, 02:49 AM
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On the 40s, 50s, etc "contrail" thing,

Reviewing one of the patents cited in the Werle patent 3899144 above, I find:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=x_VGAAAAEBAJ&dq=2045865

Skywriting Apparatus

Patent number: 2045865
Filing date: Apr 30, 1934
Issue date: Jun 30, 1936
Inventor: Glen H. Morey
Assignee: Phillips Petroleum Company

"My invention relates to the formation of smoke trails from an aircraft in flight, and to improvements in the method and apparatus used in forming same. It relates more particularly to the discharge of finely divided solid substances into the exhaust channel of an aircraft motor and thence discharged into the atmosphere in the form of a visible smoke trail..."

Here's the diagram:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=x_VGAAAAE...ges&cad=0_1

Aside from the fact that I'd use more properly use the word "aerosol" in place of "[form of] smoke" above, the idea/technology appears to date back to April 1934 (and is nearly as old as aluminum airframes themselves). I find it interesting that the patent was assigned to a petroleum corporation.
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lunk
post Nov 11 2008, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (bill @ Nov 10 2008, 08:03 AM) *
I hereby make a offer of $1000 to go towards the rental of a bizjet to get some chemtrail samples

Anyone here got some connections/ratings to carry this out ?

anyone else interested in donating ?


I would first get a sample of surface water,
or better yet, catch a sample from the start of a rain storm,
and have it spectra-analyzed to parts per billion.

Another suggestion,
is to go to your city municipality and ask for a recent drinking water analysis,
if the city water is collected from the surface, but this will probably only be listed to parts per million.

What goes up, must come down (unless it's hydrogen, helium, or methane.)
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