Sanders' Religion Thread, Begun @ LC Forum Options

[Sanders]

e-Dog and I have decided to re-constitute this from LC. It is a thread about the 3 major religions of the world. The goal was to follow the path of each from their common origins to the present day. We (a number of LC posters and I) got as far as the begining of the First Crusade while the thread was active.

What becomes of this thread when all the copying is done is not clear. It may be just a read-only thread for the Religion topic. Or it may be left open to posting, so we can finish the journey.

[Guest_librarian_*]

Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 11:58 AM

GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers retoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest

Thanks Chris. I do tend to inject a little sarcasm once in a while - I mean no disrespect by it. For anyone who cares, I personally am not religious - it's funny, I think I was a happier human being before I found "darwin". But I support people believing in what they want - I wonder sometimes if the world would be a better, more peaceful place without monotheistic religion, or an even more chaotic one. Food for thought, eh? Either way, I agree with Jimmy Carter (Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis) that 'fundamentalism' in any denomination is dangerous. "That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad" (ChrisSarns from above).

The posts from GreatMuslim were about the best posts from you I think I've ever read - thanks for straightening me out.

The business of which son Abraham was told to sacrifice is a point of contention, the Bible and the Quran differ on this, and the two versions support different versions of what was promised to which progeny - but really, the point is that this was the source, these stories are where the 3 religions sprang from. The details can't be seriously argued - I mean, according to the Bible Sarah was 90 when she had Isaac? 90 ?? Abraham lived to 175 ??

But what do we know about the minds of people several thousand years ago, or the liberties that were common in the telling of stories? I have heard that the Quran is like poetry - and the speed with which the Islamic faith converted peoples is partially attributed to the beauty of the book's prose - something that can't be appreciated when read in anything but Arabic.

I can only imagine this story told in Arabic:

"Abraham had left Mecca on God’s command, leaving Hagar and Ishmael with only some water and dates. Hagar nursed her son and they drank the remaining water. Soon thereafter, faced with great thirst, Ishmael started to cry and Hagar began to run between the hills of Safa and Marwa looking for water. She repeated the journey seven times until an angel appeared to her, striking the ground with his wing, with the result that the Zamzam spring, which Muslims consider as a tributary of the waters of Paradise, sprang forth. Henceforth Mecca was graced with a source of water which has continued flowing to this day."

Ironically, right after that passage is this, which is right where I wanted to go -

After the departure and return of Abraham to Mecca, and his discovery that Hagar had died, Abraham was then ordered by God to make Hagar’s house into a temple where people could pray. Therefore, he demolished the house and began construction of the Ka’ba. God gave Abraham precise instructions concerning how to rebuild the shrine and Gabriel showed him the location. It is said that by the grace of God the Divine Peace (al-sakinah) descended in the form of a wind which brought a cloud in the shape of a dragon that revealed to Abraham and Ishmael the site of the old temple. They were told to construct the shrine directly upon the shadow of the cloud, neither exceeding nor diminishing its dimensions. Legends say the shrine was built from the stones of five sacred mountains: Mt. Sinai, the Mount of Olives, Mt. Lebanon, Al-Judi, and nearby Mt. Hira. Upon the completion of the shrine, Gabriel brought a magic stone for the sanctuary. Different sources speculate that this stone was a meteorite or a great white sapphire from the Garden of Eden, that it had been concealed on the nearby sacred mountain of Abu Qubays during the period of the flood, and that it was later restored to Abraham for inclusion in his version of the Ka’ba. Whatever its ultimate origin, the stone was most probably a sacred object of the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads who had settled around the Zamzam spring that flows at the center of old Mecca. Upon completion of the Ka’ba, Abraham and Ishmael, accompanied by the archangel Gabriel, then performed all the elements which constitute the Hajj ritual of today

Now I am easily confused about all this, and I was searching around to find out where Isaac went, and I was surprised to read in this which isn't particularly worthy of reading really, but it said that "When Sarah and Abraham are in Egypt, on their way to the Promised Land, Hagar, an Egyptian girl, becomes a handmaiden for Sarah." ??? I thought Abraham was from Ur, which is in southern Iraq. Is Egypt on the way to the promised land? (Ahhhhh, the first historical proof that men don't like to ask directions (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )

I finally figured out that Isaac didn't go anywhere. They were already in the (present) West Bank.

From this, http://www.nisbett.com/people/bp-abraham.htm , Abraham settled in Hebron (30km south of Jeruselem) where all these events took place.

Seems Turturis was right on the money about the handmadens:

"Jacob was born of Isaac in Hebron, twin with Esau, he was married with Leah and Raquel, and had 12 children, the 12 tribes of Israel: 6 with Leah, 2 with Rachel, 2 with the the servant of Leah, and 2 with the servant of Rachel."

12 tribes of Israel anyone?

(PS. FL2, Specimen, waterbender, Facsinating about matriarchy in Egypt, Is Ra El, Zoroator etc... I'll have to read up)