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Sanders' Religion Thread, Begun @ LC Forum

Sanders
post Nov 11 2006, 05:53 AM
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e-Dog and I have decided to re-constitute this from LC. It is a thread about the 3 major religions of the world. The goal was to follow the path of each from their common origins to the present day. We (a number of LC posters and I) got as far as the begining of the First Crusade while the thread was active.

What becomes of this thread when all the copying is done is not clear. It may be just a read-only thread for the Religion topic. Or it may be left open to posting, so we can finish the journey.
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post Nov 11 2006, 07:49 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 08:12 PM

Religion pops up so much on this board lately, I thought it might be interesting to compile our own "history of Islam, Judaeism and Christianity".

I'm not going to write it, interested posters are. Anyone that wants to contribute can help. I have some rules though -

Rules:

Discussion will be sequential. I'll start it off with Abraham. No one gets to talk about Lawrence of Arabia until we've talked about the Ottoman Empire, we don't get to talk about the Ottomans until after we touch on the Spanish Inquisistion, etc.

Try to limit to what is fact and what is not. For example, Muslims BELIEVE that Mohammed rose with Jesus and visited heaven. That is true, true Muslims believe that (I think?). Also, who invaded what part of the world when, stuff like that. That's what we want.

Try to keep the posts succinct and easy to comprehend. Try to summarise, giving your take on a particular event. If people say, Bulls#it!, then you can get into more detail to back up your view.

I reserve the right to play referee.

My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war. tongue.gif
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post Nov 11 2006, 07:53 AM
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Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 08:18 PM

In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.

From then on it took it's course and has turned into something we have today.

Islam is the Arabs answer to the Holy Roman Empire.

Takes what's good from the bible and quran and burn them.
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post Nov 11 2006, 07:53 AM
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Posted by: water_bender Jul 28 2006, 08:19 PM


abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:00 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 08:31 PM


QUOTE
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.



Even better place to start ! Far out... Wait, what are talking, when you say 'Egyptian times'?? How does that line up with Abraham's life and death? Are you saying the switch from a Matriarcial society started with Abraham?

QUOTE
abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.



That's what I call succinct. salute.gif While you posted that I was writing this -

So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert.

Ishmael settled in Saudi Arabia, and Arabs generally believe that they are all descended from him. Isaac went to Israel, and the Jews believe they are descended from him.

So basically, the Palestinian conflict, the business in Lebanon, and maybe half the world's wars could've all been prevented if Abraham hadn't slept around.

Is that about right?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:00 AM
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Posted by: specimen0420 Jul 28 2006, 08:41 PM

Astro-Theology

This will take hours to read, but it is loaded with info and resources.

A few questions answered:

Who the hell are these few wanting to take over the world?
What are the real identities of the main characters in the Bible?
Who are the real Jews?
Where did Israel come from?

Wonderful Entymology (origins of words), for example; Christians out there should look at why you say "Amen" at the end of a prayer.

Here's a few good ones:
ISRAEL
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL. These are three gods of the ancient Cults. There where 4 major Cults, one replacing the other through time. Finally these Cults joined up and became one. The earliest cult is the Stellar, next came the Lunar, then the Saturnian and then the Solar. The illusion that their where voluminous pantheons of gods is a result of these cults. (see, Da Vinci and Bottecelli, Mona Lisa and Last Supper, etc,.)

DAVID / DOVE
Means Divide and indicates 'Geometry.' The letters of the word seen geometrically make the Star of David. The two "D"s become a circle, the "A" is a triangle, the "V" is an downward facing triangle. We also derive the word Dove from David. This is why there is a dove on the modern credit card and why the Royalty also use the symbol. In Spanish the word for Dove is Columba, or Columbanus. This is where the Knights of Columbus get their name. The District of Columbia, British Columbia, Columbia (SA), Columbia Pictures, Columbia Records, Christopher Columbus and Columbine High School, all derive from the secret meaning of this term and symbol. The name of Columbus, was adopted by Christopher Columbus because he was in the pay of the Knights of Malta, the real founders and owners of America. We still see the pictures of the ships in which Columbus sailed. On the sails was the red cross of the Knights of Malta, also known as the Knights of Columbus. Another of their symbols, the dove, is also found on Greenpeace, and in the movie For your eyes only, the criminal group of crack assassins use the symbol. The Knights of Columbus trace their occult history from the actual Assassins of the Persians. Also from davad, meaning sexual desire.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:05 AM
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Posted by: turturis Jul 28 2006, 09:30 PM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 03:31 PM)
QUOTE
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.


Even better place to start ! Far out... Wait, what are talking, when you say 'Egyptian times'?? How does that line up with Abraham's life and death? Are you saying the switch from a Matriarcial society started with Abraham?

QUOTE
abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.

That's what I call succinct. While you posted that I was writing this -

So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert.

Ishmael settled in Saudi Arabia, and Arabs generally believe that they are all descended from him. Isaac went to Israel, and the Jews believe they are descended from him.

So basically, the Palestinian conflict, the business in Lebanon, and maybe half the world's wars could've all been prevented if Abraham hadn't slept around.

Is that about right?


sarah wasnt pissed...she gave her handmaiden to abe because she was baren. it was customary in those days for a women who was baren to give her handmaiden to the husband.

sanders...i thought you were serious.....this doesnt really seem like its off to a good start
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 09:55 PM


QUOTE (turturis @ Jul 29 2006 @ 06:30 AM)
sarah wasnt pissed...she gave her handmaiden to abe because she was baren.  it was customary in those days for a women who was baren to give her handmaiden to the husband.

sanders...i thought you were serious.....this doesnt really seem like its off to a good start


What?? Whadd I do?
Now, see, I didn't know that. I just learned something.
And I am serious ...
Now once Sarah was able to have a son, she DID tell Abraham to send Hagar away, right?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 28 2006, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (FL2 @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:18 PM)
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.

From then on it took it's course and has turned into something we have today.

Islam is the Arabs answer to the Holy Roman Empire.

Takes what's good from the bible and quran and burn them.


That is false because God has no gender in Islam. As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God. His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha. As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis. Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah. It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113). Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets. Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob. Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM
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Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 10:49 PM

QUOTE
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL.


Just checked

Is = Stands for Isis, the queen of the throne.
Ra = symbolizes the Sun
El = The supreme God (masculine entity)
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 07:31 AM)
As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God. His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha. As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis. Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah. It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113). Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets. Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob. Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph. 

Interesting - I had never heard Abraham and Hagar were married - (I'm not a religious guy, don't read the Bible so you'll have to forgive me). Would it be fair to say that Islam teaches that they were married while Judaeism and Christianity teach that they were not?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 12:11 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 07:31 AM)
As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God.  His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha.  As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis.  Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah.  It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113).  Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael.  As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets.  Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob.  Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.  Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph. 

Interesting - I had never heard Abraham and Hagar were married - (I'm not a religious guy, don't read the Bible so you'll have to forgive me). Would it be fair to say that Islam teaches that they were married while Judaeism and Christianity teach that they were not? 


Actually, Hagar is, according to the Bible, Abraham's wife. He is an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_%28Bibl...in_Islamic_Lore

"The story of Hagar is found in Genesis 16 and 21. The narrative states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave her to Abraham for a wife, that by her, as a substitute, might bear him children."

Also, according to this, she was Abraham's wife. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar

So the Biblical and Quranic accounts of the life of the Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) are similar in so many ways, including the fact that Hagar was his wife, given to him by Sara. Sara's slave was Hagar, but she gave her to Abraham since she was barren.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 03:10 AM

You know, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are so closely alike. We worship the same One God, we believe in many of the same prophets and messengers of God, we believe in angels, the afterlife, and etc. All three of those religions are Abrahamic religions. We are all monotheists. To see similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_...nd_the_Qur%27an

We all agree that the Torah and Psalms came from God to Moses and David, Christians and Muslims both believe that the Gospel came from God to Jesus, and only Muslims believe that the Qur'an came from God to Muhammad. If you read about the similarities, you'll realize that Islam has come to be misunderstood by many and that Christianity and Judaism are very close in beliefs.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM
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Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 03:24 AM


And then, as the mushroom cloud rose up over Tel Aviv, Muslims around the world jumped up and down, smacked themselves in the face with heavy chains and scream "Allah akbar!"

Meanwhile the Americans watched on TV in stunned amazament, mostly saying "Jesus H f*cking Christ look what they just did!"

Followed by a guy in Cheyenne mountain unlocking a special little box while he whispered, "God forgive me"...


woops, I skipped right to the last chapter.


religion=
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 03:24 AM


QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
And then, as the mushroom cloud rose up over Tel Aviv, Muslims around the world jumped up and down, smacked themselves in the face with heavy chains and scream "Allah akbar!"

Meanwhile the Americans watched on TV in stunned amazament, mostly saying "Jesus H f*cking Christ look what they just did!"

Followed by a guy in Cheyenne mountain unlocking a special little box while he whispered, "God forgive me"...


woops, I skipped right to the last chapter.


religion= 

Listen, if you are not going to contribute to this thread then don't post anything. You don't see me making fun of your beliefs, so don't make fun of mine.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:07 AM
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Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 03:35 AM


QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
religion= 

Durn Roger. I thought THEY were SKEPTICS!! doh1.gif
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM
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Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 04:18 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war. 

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII.

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it. unsure.gif
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM
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Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 04:38 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war.
 

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII. 

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it.


Alright, I want to contribute something vaguely meaningful to this thread since I've gone and called it what it is again (a personal note, I have sacrificed my own here, I turned off the "show signatures" option in the control panel just so I wouldn't have to see gm's stupid f*@kin quotes, thereby missing out on chucksheens ongoing works of art).

So tell me what you make of this-


Psalm 83

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.
See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.
With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”


Discovered in a bog in Ireland last week, a 1,200 year old bible opened to Psalm 83

God's pissed and he's coming to eat you
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM
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Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:35 PM)
QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
religion=

Durn Roger. I thought THEY were SKEPTICS!! 

Skeptics are harder to spot. They blend in with any other group.

I caught up with one today...can you find him in this picture?

[image no longer available]
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM
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Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:38 AM)
QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war.  tongue.gif

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII. 

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it.  unsure.gif

Alright, I want to contribute something vaguely meaningful to this thread since I've gone and called it what it is again (a personal note, I have sacrificed my own here, I turned off the "show signatures" option in the control panel just so I wouldn't have to see gm's stupid f*ckin quotes, thereby missing out on chucksheens ongoing works of art).

So tell me what you make of this-


Psalm 83

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.
See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.
With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”


Discovered in a bog in Ireland last week, a 1,200 year old bible opened to Psalm 83

God's pissed and he's coming to eat you


Roger, the god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in either.

I do believe in God, but I believe that He is far above the petty contrivances that we humans bicker over.

We tend to invent a partisan god that will one day zap all the infidels and unbelievers and raise us true believers up to heights of glory so that we can proudly proclaim, "There! Told you so!"

So I will tell you about the God that I believe in. My sincerest apologies to those these viewpoints may offend.

1 All great religions are from God.

2 These religions are revealed to us sequentially similar to teachers in a school who take us step by step from year 1 to year 7 (or something similar).

3 When a religion is new born it is powerful and dynamic. Because it is opposed by the entrenched authorities (often the previous religion) no 'hangers on' join up.

4 As the religion becomes established people realize that it is a shortcut to power, so the freeloaders start to climb on board.

5 The religion effloresces in its summertime glory, establishing a civilization that is the epitome of human development.

6 Eventually the freeloaders fully corrupt the religion and it becomes a spent force in human affairs.

7 At this point a new Holy Prophet of God appears and begins the cycle again.

So when we look at religion in the world around us what we see is the depleted structures of bygone glory.

Islam was truy glorious in the European Dark Ages, Christianity during the time of Constantine, Judaism during the ancient Greek civilization.

Perhaps future historians will be able to trace the influence of the Prophets on Egypt and Mesopotamia (or Ur or Sumeria).
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