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Aal 77 And Ual 93 Position

sunil
post Dec 29 2008, 04:09 PM
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Hi Everybody!
I am first time here to write something and say hello to everybody. I am an ATCO from Poland, member of PilotsFor911Truth Organization and would like to ask if anybody knows the latest confirmed AAL 77 and UAL 93 position? What I need is how to find out the geographical places in which the transponders of above mentioned a/c were cutted off? I am not familiar with US airspace and it is really difficult to me to locate it on the map. Thank you in advance for your help.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 29 2008, 04:41 PM
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Hey sunil,

Good to see ya here...

I havent studied the radar in detail yet... but many others have. Many have also determined Radar data obtained through the FOIA has been manipulated, so of course keep that in mind when reviewing the data.

With that said,

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, AA77 radar returns ceased at the Ohio/KY border. They also lost primary target for some time (8 mins if i recall). A new primary target appeared west of IAD Class Bravo, but was never positively identified as AA77.

Others im sure can give you more detail on UA93 as i havent really studied the radar of that flight yet...

Im also going to move this to rsearch if you dont mind.

Once again, good to see ya here...
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dMz
post Dec 30 2008, 12:38 AM
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Hello and welcome sunil. welcome.gif

Although the credibility of the USAF 84 RADES data has been called into severe/extreme question, here are the last 15 or so AA77 positions from the USAF 84 RADES spreadsheet data. The ground speed comes from a spherical law of cosines approximation (from latitude & longitude) that I refined back in Dec 2007.

Time(EDT) Lat(deg) Lon(deg) GS(kts) [approx.]
9:34:50 38.7799 -77.0855 327.60
9:35:02 38.7657 -77.1007 332.72
9:35:13 38.7568 -77.1202 320.55
9:35:25 38.7580 -77.1392 268.87
9:35:37 38.7601 -77.1578 266.08

9:35:49 38.7713 -77.1677 247.48
9:36:01 38.7867 -77.1737 294.44
9:36:13 38.8031 -77.1720 298.48
9:36:25 38.8136 -77.1668 205.46
9:36:37 38.8280 -77.1533 325.54

9:36:48 38.8359 -77.1360 285.18
9:37:00 38.8505 -77.1156 392.59
9:37:12 38.8566 -77.0937 328.58
9:37:36 38.8714 -77.0635 253.40
9:37:48 38.8682 -77.0610 67.92 [yes, I got 0.224880237 nm in 11.920 seconds for this final RADES interval]

Related post may be found at #77 here:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10761538

EDIT: I'll need to work on my UA93 RADES spreadsheet- that thing is "squirrelly." I'm too tired right now, but I'll post that after I make a few graphs from the UA93 data.
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sunil
post Dec 30 2008, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Dec 30 2008, 05:38 AM) *
Hello and welcome sunil. welcome.gif

Although the credibility of the USAF 84 RADES data has been called into severe/extreme question, here are the last 15 or so AA77 positions from the USAF 84 RADES spreadsheet data. The ground speed comes from a spherical law of cosines approximation (from latitude & longitude) that I refined back in Dec 2007.

Time(EDT) Lat(deg) Lon(deg) GS(kts) [approx.]
9:34:50 38.7799 -77.0855 327.60
9:35:02 38.7657 -77.1007 332.72
9:35:13 38.7568 -77.1202 320.55
9:35:25 38.7580 -77.1392 268.87
9:35:37 38.7601 -77.1578 266.08

9:35:49 38.7713 -77.1677 247.48
9:36:01 38.7867 -77.1737 294.44
9:36:13 38.8031 -77.1720 298.48
9:36:25 38.8136 -77.1668 205.46
9:36:37 38.8280 -77.1533 325.54

9:36:48 38.8359 -77.1360 285.18
9:37:00 38.8505 -77.1156 392.59
9:37:12 38.8566 -77.0937 328.58
9:37:36 38.8714 -77.0635 253.40
9:37:48 38.8682 -77.0610 67.92 [yes, I got 0.224880237 nm in 11.920 seconds for this final RADES interval]

Related post may be found at #77 here:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10761538

EDIT: I'll need to work on my UA93 RADES spreadsheet- that thing is "squirrelly." I'm too tired right now, but I'll post that after I make a few graphs from the UA93 data.



Hello,

thank you Rob and dMole. Regards.
And, BTW, Happy New Year to both of you and to all Forum participants!!!
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dMz
post Dec 30 2008, 09:47 AM
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Hi again sunil,

Somehow I missed the transponder part of your question (I told you I was tired last night wink.gif ). The same RADES "dubious data" disclaimers apply.

Here is what the USAF spreadsheet says for the PLA (the Plains, Virginia) radar station:

EDT Mode3 ModeC(ft) Lat Lon GS(kts)
8:39:44 6553 33000 38.9842 -80.1943 417.03
8:40:07 3743 33000 38.9738 -80.2590 466.54

8:50:39 3743 35000 38.8308 -81.9414 455.18

Then nothing until a primary Search blip at PLA:
9:09:30 NONE 38.4213 -80.7823 [no altitude data at all, and my speed approximation needs 2 lat/lon coordinates]

then

EDT Lat Lon GS(kts)
9:09:42 38.4223 -80.7528 422.14

I may not be able to log on for a few days on that UA93 RADES data though. I hope this helps, but again the data is suspect.
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sunil
post Jan 2 2009, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Dec 30 2008, 02:47 PM) *
Hi again sunil,

Somehow I missed the transponder part of your question (I told you I was tired last night wink.gif ). The same RADES "dubious data" disclaimers apply.

Here is what the USAF spreadsheet says for the PLA (the Plains, Virginia) radar station:

EDT Mode3 ModeC(ft) Lat Lon GS(kts)
8:39:44 6553 33000 38.9842 -80.1943 417.03
8:40:07 3743 33000 38.9738 -80.2590 466.54

8:50:39 3743 35000 38.8308 -81.9414 455.18

Then nothing until a primary Search blip at PLA:
9:09:30 NONE 38.4213 -80.7823 [no altitude data at all, and my speed approximation needs 2 lat/lon coordinates]

then

EDT Lat Lon GS(kts)
9:09:42 38.4223 -80.7528 422.14

I may not be able to log on for a few days on that UA93 RADES data though. I hope this helps, but again the data is suspect.
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sunil
post Jan 2 2009, 01:58 PM
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Thank you dMole. Your response is very helpfull to me. If you have some more info about UAL 93 as well - I will appreciate. Best regards.
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dMz
post Jan 13 2009, 11:38 PM
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Sorry sunil, I forgot to post this UA93 RADES info. It looked like most of the RADES radar sites have UA93 as Mode 3 "1527," but the curious part was at OCA (Oceania, Virginia i believe). I'll link a screen capture of that.

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/18383

Also, around 08:47:50 EDT, the Mode 3 is changed from 1527 > 1520 > 1526 for 3 returns (about 36 seconds), then back to 1527 (PLA, or the Plains, VA site).

These are the latest returns I found in the RADES spreadsheet data, at the PLA site around 10:02:20 EDT.

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/18384

You should find some "strange" altitudes in those Mode C numbers for both flights AA77 and UA93...

The RADES site info is at post #8 here:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10534255
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