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Plane Crash In New York State, 9/11 victim's wife aboard.

painter
post Feb 14 2009, 06:38 PM
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Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7890455.stm

Excerpt:




Genocide expert dies in US crash



Page last updated at 17:02 GMT, Saturday, 14 February 2009

The court trying alleged perpetrators of the Rwandan genocide has expressed its shock at the death in an air crash of a top expert on the 1994 massacres.

Alison Des Forges, 66, was among 50 people killed in a plane crash on Thursday near Buffalo, New York state.

A spokesman for the the UN tribunal for Rwanda called her death "a great loss", said AFP news agency.

Ms Des Forges was an expert adviser to the court on the genocide, in which some 800,000 people were killed.

"It is with deep shock that the tribunal has learned of the tragic disappearance of Alison Des Forges," said Roland Amoussouga, a spokesman for the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

"It is a great loss for the world of human rights, international justice and the whole of humanity," he added.


Ms Des Forges wrote a key study
of the Rwanda genocide

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Trismagistus
post Feb 14 2009, 07:02 PM
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At 2300 feet heading 2-6-0 3407 was instructed to contact tower 120.5. Everything seemed fine at that point. No indications of the slightest emergency or concern of ice unlike CACTUS 1452 which was the most vocal about ice build up or RIME ice.
Delta 1998 was instructed to look for 3407 out the right side window but I guess sinceDelta was flying IMC that it wouldn't be possible to spot them? So the Delta pilot indicated he didn't see anything on TCAS either which is Traffic Collision Avoidance System that works by transponder that alerts pilots of other aircraft in their vicinity. Would TCAS work at 5 miles out?
Delta 1998 was flying IMC which stands for Instrument Meteorological Conditions, also known as 'blind flying' at 2,300 feet. VFR stands for Visual Flight Rules which permits the pilot to fly by site if conditions permit.
Well I'm still asking, what happened to 3407 at 2,300 feet? Even if the ice presented a problem, why no last communications? At that elevation there seems to have been plenty of time for a pilot to contact the tower. It will be interesting to find out whats on that blackbox if it's found and intact. Or more interesting what's not on it.

This post has been edited by Trismagistus: Feb 14 2009, 07:04 PM
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captsly
post Feb 14 2009, 07:37 PM
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NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31008391&hl=en
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rob balsamo
post Feb 14 2009, 07:46 PM
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Welcome to the forum captsly.

Please try to post in regular font.

Also, your link is broken.
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JFK
post Feb 14 2009, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 06:37 PM) *
NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31008391&hl=en

Looks like a malformed URL due to a copy paste from another forum to me. whistle.gif
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DoYouEverWonder
post Feb 14 2009, 09:55 PM
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NYT - In Plane Crash, Loss of Momentum Still a Mystery

February 14, 2009

AMHERST, N.Y. — The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo on Thursday night slammed to the ground flat on its belly, with almost no forward momentum and facing opposite its intended route, seconds after two automatic warnings to the pilots that the plane was not moving fast enough to stay aloft, the National Transportation Safety Board said on Saturday.

The description indicates that the plane, a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400, suffered an aerodynamic stall, meaning the flow of air over the wings was either disrupted or too slow to sustain flight, but the reason why remains a mystery.

Icing, which the crew of the plane reported shortly before the crash, is one possible reason, but Steven Chealander, the safety board member assigned to the investigation and a retired airline captain, said the aircraft had a sophisticated ice protection system.

The plane was equipped, he said, with pneumatic boots, which are a bit like tires, on the front edges of the wings, the tail and the vertical stabilizer, that inflate and contract twice a minute to break ice accumulations, as well as electrically heated propellers. The system gives an indication in the cockpit if any boot is not working, and so far, investigators have found no sign of such an indication, Mr. Chealander said.

“This Dash 8 is a workhorse airplane,” he said. “It’s not really susceptible to ice.”

Investigators searching the crash site for evidence have described a fire so intense that on one of the plane’s two propellers, all six blades were completely destroyed. The blades are made of a mixture of polyurethane and carbon. Past crashes have been caused by broken blades.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been scouring the neighborhood for parts that were thrown off before the plane hit the ground but have not found any, investigators said.

The flight, Continental Connection Flight 3407, began from Newark Liberty International Airport and was headed for Buffalo Niagara International Airport. It crashed into a house in the hamlet of Clarence Center, about six miles from the Buffalo airport, killing all 49 people on board and one person in the house.

Firefighters had pumped water on the smoldering wreckage for so many hours that the site became covered with ice, further complicating the investigation. On Saturday, volunteer firefighters and other workers used torpedo-shaped heaters to melt some of the ice, Mr. Chealander said. They were working in a cramped space in which the wreckage of a house is mixed with that of the plane and with the remains of the dead.

The medical examiner expects to take three or four more days to remove the bodies, Mr. Chealander said. Investigators are hoping to have all the wreckage recovered before Wednesday, when a major snowstorm is expected.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/nyregion/15crash.html?hp

1. What's with the single minded focus on 'ice'? Not even the standard 'we don't suspect terrorism' mentioned?

2. Interesting that they actually have 'bodies' to recover, especially after such an intense fire. Flight 93 was gone in a puff of smoke and all they had were human remains. rolleyes.gif
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captsly
post Feb 14 2009, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 06:46 PM) *
Welcome to the forum captsly.

Please try to post in regular font.

Also, your link is broken.



sorry 'bout the font , Google took down the video that nasa langly made about tail plane icing....
i have a personal copy i'll have to burn it and post it as a private video..... might be due to the number of hits... it's public information, so it;s interesting that it was removed....
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captsly
post Feb 14 2009, 11:46 PM
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QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 10:29 PM) *
sorry 'bout the font , Google took down the video that nasa langly made about tail plane icing....
i have a personal copy i'll have to burn it and post it as a private video..... might be due to the number of hits... it's public information, so it;s interesting that it was removed....




try this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3493859021331008391

note what is said at 31 minutes...
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albertchampion
post Feb 15 2009, 01:57 AM
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when i was flying my baron, icing was the scariest situation encountered.

fortunately, everytime i encountered it, i was able to find a warmer flight level and escape.

but eventually, my rule was that i tried not to fly into those conditions.

if pireps reported icing in my flight path, i either turned around, put it down, or didn't launch.

what happened last week? what caused this bird to become so iced-up that it augured in and no bird before or afterwards experienced the same accumulation of ice?

i am comfortable, however, with the assertion that severe icing conditions can exist short-term, affecting no other aircraft. mainly because adverse weather can be a very isolated phenomenon.

still, if you recall some of my posts of how murder can be disguised in a catastrophe, it might be considered who on this flight was wanted to be dead.

to me, the clear target would be alison des forges. who had to have discovered the activities of the us intell services in ruanda, our running of kagame. the establishment of africom.

bev eckert. not so much a target. as i recall, she never questioned the "official" story concerning the events of 11/09/01. she just objected to the usg's ostensible negligence. i don't think that she ever considered the usg the instigator of the events of that day. but i could be getting that inaccurately.
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amazed!
post Feb 15 2009, 11:47 AM
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Having never flown the Dash 8, it's a safe bet that a fully developed stall 2000 feet above terrain would be difficult to recover from, loaded with ice. And flaps and gear would seal one's fate.

Kinda like Roselawn, Indiana with the ATR those years ago.
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Trismagistus
post Feb 15 2009, 02:15 PM
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In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and I'm astonished that the news services here in the US are only focusing on the ice as being the only culprit.Like mockingbirds that only mimic sounds. They chime together on the same story even though this plane was equipped with de-icing equipment and up til this pilots last communication she never once mentioned ice as an issue but in millions of Americans minds over the last week thanks to the so called 'news' most people believe that ice is the only factor. Unbelievable. How long does it take for a plane to fall from 2,300 feet? I'm supposed to believe that a pilot can't make contact with the ground in that time? I guess the ice accumulation was so massive at 2,300 feet that this aircraft turned into a giant block of ice instantaneously maybe 10 feet thick thus repelling any radio-wave communications? So they must have all froze to death instantly then fell straight down? Excuse my cynicism, I'm just mad about the needless loss of life and the incapability of a proper investigation that asks the obvious questions. Thank you all for the information about the de-icing capability of this plane...very important fact. I suspect that if ice was a problem the pilot would have alerted the tower of intention to change altitude. Also interesting to note that the plane landed flat but seems to have had no forward air speed mentioned in the investigation. If ice fell this plane and it fell out of the sky with no control how was the pilot able to land flat? There's some pieces missing in this investigation and hopefully since the tail section was still partially intact, the blackbox may be recovered."The crew discussed significant ice build-up — ice on the windshield and leading edges of the wings," said the NTSB's Steven R. Chealander. This line is interesting because if true I didn't hear anything in the communications to the tower posted above. I borrowed this from another website..."Dash 8 operating instructions state that, when operating in icing conditions, engine intake by-pass doors must be open, engine ignition switches must be set at manual, and airframe de-ice must be set to slow or fast." The author of that quotation stated that most pilots still wait for ice accumulation before switching the airframe de-icer on in order to prevent what they call 'ice bridging'.

This post has been edited by Trismagistus: Feb 15 2009, 02:50 PM
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KP50
post Feb 15 2009, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Trismagistus @ Feb 16 2009, 07:15 AM) *
In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and I'm astonished that the news services here in the US are only focusing on the ice as being the only culprit.Like mockingbirds that only mimic sounds. They chime together on the same story even though this plane was equipped with de-icing equipment and up til this pilots last communication she never once mentioned ice as an issue but in millions of Americans minds over the last week thanks to the so called 'news' most people believe that ice is the only factor. Unbelievable. How long does it take for a plane to fall from 2,300 feet? I'm supposed to believe that a pilot can't make contact with the ground in that time? I guess the ice accumulation was so massive at 2,300 feet that this aircraft turned into a giant block of ice instantaneously maybe 10 feet thick thus repelling any radio-wave communications? So they must have all froze to death instantly then fell straight down? Excuse my cynicism, I'm just mad about the needless loss of life and the incapability of a proper investigation that asks the obvious questions. Thank you all for the information about the de-icing capability of this plane...very important fact. I suspect that if ice was a problem the pilot would have alerted the tower of intention to change altitude. Also interesting to note that the plane landed flat but seems to have had no forward air speed mentioned in the investigation. If ice fell this plane and it fell out of the sky with no control how was the pilot able to land flat? There's some pieces missing in this investigation and hopefully since the tail section was still partially intact, the blackbox may be recovered."The crew discussed significant ice build-up — ice on the windshield and leading edges of the wings," said the NTSB's Steven R. Chealander. This line is interesting because if true I didn't hear anything in the communications to the tower posted above. I borrowed this from another website..."Dash 8 operating instructions state that, when operating in icing conditions, engine intake by-pass doors must be open, engine ignition switches must be set at manual, and airframe de-ice must be set to slow or fast." The author of that quotation stated that most pilots still wait for ice accumulation before switching the airframe de-icer on in order to prevent what they call 'ice bridging'.

I watched the news in NZ and the story was along the lines of "a major breakthrough in the investigation of why the plane crashed in New York State" and as you say, it was ice, ice, ice all the way. My bullshit detector began to sound as there was no actual new evidence at all. But "they" know people will lose interest in this story in a day or 2 so they fix it in their minds as ice and then eventually the NTSB report will come out and say that it was caused by ice.
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Omega892R09
post Feb 15 2009, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (KP50 @ Feb 13 2009, 07:21 PM) *
I watched the news in NZ and the story was along the lines of "a major breakthrough in the investigation of why the plane crashed in New York State" and as you say, it was ice, ice, ice all the way. My bullshit detector began to sound as there was no actual new evidence at all. But "they" know people will lose interest in this story in a day or 2 so they fix it in their minds as ice and then eventually the NTSB report will come out and say that it was caused by ice.

I'll put this remark I made in another thread as it fits right in with what you, and I, think:

Wasn't icing pointed at in the Senator Wellstone crash and a probable ILS fault on the ground? WRT 3407, I noted the ILS malfunction concerns of the voice from Buffalo ATC who I thought could do with speech training to improve the chances of his being understood.
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DoYouEverWonder
post Feb 15 2009, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE
Fatal US plane 'was on autopilot'

15 February 2009

A plane that crashed onto a house in New York state, killing 50 people, was on autopilot when it went down in icy weather, investigators have said.

The Continental Airlines pilot may have breached federal safety recommendations by flying in such conditions, investigator Steve Chealander said.

Pilots are recommended to fly manually in icy weather, he said.

Analysis of the plane's data recorders shows the crew noticed significant ice build-up on its wings before the crash.

"You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner than the autopilot can sense it," said Mr Chealander, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

He told the Associated Press news agency that the NTSB recommended pilots disengage their craft's autopilot facility in icy conditions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7891770.stm


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nitatutt
post Feb 15 2009, 07:35 PM
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The local weather was odd on the 12th.
We are all victims of current events - and it is nearly impossible to discern the truth from the lies that are broadcast 24/7.
I hope Beverly Eckert finally has the answers to her (our) questions, and I hope Alison Des Forges's legacy will continue, but I doubt it - we are trapped like rats in a cage.
I wouldn't surprise me if in the near future America experiences a "Rwanda" event, it appears that the demonic powers are hungry for more blood.
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albertchampion
post Feb 15 2009, 08:48 PM
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there are many incorrect aspects of this flight reported by so many. this was a continental express flight. i don't think that the crew were continental airlines employees. i think they worked for colgan[which i think is a dba for another corporate entity that provides "shuttle" services for a number of major carriers in addition to continental].

what i also think that i have learned from these preliminary reports from the ntsb was that bird was flying away from buffalo international. i would like to hear more of those controller tapes. unedited i trust that the ntsb will acquire them. because if it is true that this plane made some turn away from the airport, i would like to hear how that manuever was made/authorized, since the flight was essentially on final.

all things considered, it appears to be one of the strangest accidents in aviation history. consider, a commercial airliner landing on a house with zero forward momentum in "belly flop" mode. i cannot imagine how that could happen unless the house had some kind of science-fiction style tractor beam aimed at the bird. i know of choppers going in that way, but i have never heard of a fixed wing colliding with terrain in that aspect. have any of you?

another part of the story that has intrigued me is the report of the conflagration that ensued. as i read the statements from the fired department, they all read as if the fire squads rarely encountered such a difficult to extinguish fire, and hosed the collision site down with so much water that the site was rendered an ice cube, and that for the investigation to commence, forced air heaters had to be deployed to melt that ice cube.

how much fuel would a dash 8 carry in excess of what it would take to fly from newark to buffalo? enough for a raging conflagration that went on for a length of time considered unique by the fire dept?

contrast this with the collision with terrain site of UA93 which exhibited virtually no evidence of any raging conflagration.

the other thing that puzzles me is the alacrity of the ntsb to get to the accident site and to issue preliminary reports/findings. contrast this with the ntsb's absence from any of the collisions with terrain sites of 11/09/01.

oh well, i think most of us know that at least since twa800 the ntsb has become an arm of the amerikan okhrana.
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richard cranium
post Feb 15 2009, 09:26 PM
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The ABC affiliate here in southern California keeps mentioning and stressing the fact that the "autopilot" was on,and it shouldn't have been. I'm not a pilot and not really sure what they are saying,and how important it is. Perhaps someone here could elucidate. They also showed a cartoon-type recreation of the plane spinning like a top as it decends and crashes. I was kinda wondering what everybody thought about that too.

Concerning Beverly Eckert. Last Friday evening I was watching Charles Gibson's Nightly News (on ABC) and he stated that the whole reason Beverly Eckert sued the government was because she simply wanted "an apology". What the f***?

rc

This post has been edited by richard cranium: Feb 15 2009, 09:27 PM
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albertchampion
post Feb 15 2009, 10:07 PM
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the "on" autopilot aspect of this story intrigues me.

because of what occurred during the fatal "accident" involving AS261. in that accident, according to the ntsb's interpretation of the fdr, when that flight began to go nasty it commenced with the re-engagement of the autopilot offshore pt mugu. there has never been a good explanation for why this autopilot system became re-engaged after having been disengaged within minutes of departing puerto vallarta hours earlier.

it is beyond my imagining that the crew of AS261 decided to re-engage the autopilot after having flown the bird manually since departure. especially since the flight crew knew that the autopilot system was malfunctioning, especially in the matter of trim. and the record was clear that this malfunctioning was the source of considerable communication with LA CONTROL and alaska airline maintenance personnel. the solution to the malfunctioning trim aspect of the autopilot was decided upon within minutes after launch: the plane would be flown to oakland manually.

in my analysis, some external mechanism re-engaged that autopilot system and complete manual control of the bird was denied that flight crew as a result of that event.

and though is is entirely possible that the colgan flight crew was still on autopilot when the accident occurred, this would not be a violation of any FAR's. on the other hand, just because the autopilot was engaged at the time of the collision with terrain does not mean that the crew engaged that autopilot system.

it may sound tin foil hattish, but i think that the us military has the mechanisms to acquire control of electronified birds...to contest the physical control of a flight crew.

by the way, this dash 8 was one of the first in a new generation of highly electronified variants of that design.

i wonder if there were any military aircraft working in the buffalo vicinity that night. as elaine scarry discovered in her 3 part investigation into TWA800 that was published in the new york review of books, there were lots of military aircraft conducting operations that night[all of which were denied by the dowar]. and by the way, to the best of my knowledge, scarry's work has never been picked up by the msm. even though most of her findings have been confirmed by the usg. research thrown down the memory hole.

alison des forges was the target. her story is right out of le carre. a sequel to his the constant gardener.
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datars
post Feb 15 2009, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Feb 10 2009, 12:32 PM) *
I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming on the heels of a meeting with the President that brought 9/11 back into the headlines. Accidents do happen of course -- but, as we all know, so does assassination by aircraft sabotage.

I agree
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JFK
post Feb 16 2009, 12:41 AM
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A cockpit view of the Q-400 from bombardier - http://209.85.62.24/18/3/0/p120943/ph_bombardier_q400_12.png (3.41 Mb )
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