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Plane Crash In New York State, 9/11 victim's wife aboard.

rob balsamo
post Feb 16 2009, 12:28 AM
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Steve Nieman is one of our core members and is a Capt on this airplane. I emailed him to stop by for the discussion when he has some time.

Thanks for posting the cockpit pic JFK.

For those interested, the "Ice Panel" (really anti-ice, de-ice), is on the upper left overhead. Cant miss it. Looks like the airplane is well equipped to handle ice.
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paranoia
post Feb 16 2009, 02:37 AM
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im far from anything even remotely close to being a pilot or air craft mechanic, but i have some thoughts/questions.

"ice caused the crash"

it is february and in buffalo at that, so ice isnt exactly unusual, imho. plus the very day/night of the crash, even down here in virginia we were having wind gusts of up to 50 mph. so those two factors (ice/wind), if calculated into the events, might not make a crash out of the norm. frankly, im always shocked that there arent more major crashes in the winter skies, when u consider how many planes are flying around in extreme weather conditions.

but lets assume for a minute, ice was indeed the main factor leading to the crash. in other words, lets assume (hypothetically of course) that ice had indeed managed to freeze on enough of a surface on the craft's wings to render its airfoil inefficient.

the question would then become why? as in - why did the apparatus in place to melt or get rid of that ice, fail? ice itself may have indeed caused the crash, but im not saying the crash isnt suspicious, but that i personally wouldnt look at reports of "ice as the cause of the crash" as being suspicious part of this whole incident.

i think that if someone did sabotage the plane and wanted to make it look like a "natural" occurrence (due to mechanical failure), they would render the anti-ice machinery inoperable, and expect (to a very specifically calculated degree of certainty) that they could/would succeed in crashing the plane, given that it is winter and snowy and wet in where the plane was flying or going to fly. as a an added measure, this saboteur might have also have had in place some way of cutting off the (final) communications of the plane in order to make sure no hints/clues (via cockpit communications) were left behind.

maybe my scenario is a bit too technically demanding or complex and therefore too sensational to execute - i dont know... like i said, im no expert and have very little relevant knowledge about what would be involved on a physical parameters level. but i dont think ice being the culprit is in and of itself something to be suspicious of. ice happens in the winter. but (close to) 99 percent of the planes fly and land safely in the winter cuz corrective/preventative measures are taken and the planes' are equipped to get rid of the ice. so where this plane failed and why (if ice is indeed the cause), is where i think the answer (to what really happened) lies. perhaps someone (here) with relevant knowledge can comment or share some insights into the plausibility (or lack-thereof) of my hypothesis.


the future:

chances are likely some bs explanation for the mechanical failure of the anti-ice devices will be found and given by the ntsb down the road. then it will be up to the plane companies (the carrier and the plane manufacturer) as well as anti-ice device manufacturers to duke it out against the ntsb and to try to avoid taking the blame or fall (given the financial costs involved with such liability/responsibility). the flip side - and the defense possibly, might be blaming it on pilot error or miscalculation, hence the floating of the "auto-pilot" story...


Plane That Crashed Near Buffalo Was on Autopilot,
possible violation of safety recommendations:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6882782


i guess we'll see.




***



some musings on a seperate but related note:

i also wonder about the miracle on the hudson plane and its AVERTED crash. what if those engines had been sabotaged (not by birds) and some of the passengers on that plane had been targeted for neutralization (death)? but that thanks to the heroic/expert flying of the plane (and its consequent safe water landing) the plot failed? what if some of the people onboard this flight were actually also on the hudson-miracle plane? was there ever a list of all passengers released for the miracle plane? yes, im speculating...

but regardless and seperate of any possible (passenger) connection between the 2 crashes, i personally find the hudson-miracle crash to be much more suspicious than this current one - not because of the amazing landing - but because of the allegation that birds managed to take out both engines of that plane... unlike ice in the winter, managing to hit both engines with birds is very UNUSUAL, to me at least...

meh... just thinking outloud, please dont mind me...

whistle.gif



***

edited to add video:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6881966

(first half blames ice, second half auto pilot)

This post has been edited by paranoia: Feb 16 2009, 02:46 AM
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rob balsamo
post Feb 16 2009, 03:18 AM
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Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a report by the NTSB, i'll give my 2 cents thus far.

According to the ATC audio, winds were not a factor. Wind reports were within 10-20 degrees of runway (IIRC) and around 14 knots.

Also according to the same audio, it appears ice was also not a factor. Aircraft reported 1/4" Rime ice on the descent (according to Delta 1998) and were shedding the ice once level at intercept altitude (altitude to intercept the glideslope of the ILS, air was obviously warmer there and ice was shedding off the airframe) according to Cactus 1452.

The Q400 is well equipped to handle flight into known icing conditions. The aircraft is equipped with de-ice boots (inflatable rubber "boots" on leading edges which cracks off the ice) and other de-ice/anti-ice features (windshield heat, .etc). Reading other boards and those who fly the Q400, the Q400 has two automatic modes for ice removal (you can see them on the overhead Ice Panel). A slow mode and fast mode. Slow mode cycles the boots (inflates the boots/cracks off the ice), once every 3 minutes. Fast mode inflates once every minute.

If ice were a factor, the ice would have had to accumulate to "dangerous levels" in less than 3 minutes prior to flap selection if the pilots had slow mode selected. Since this was an approach, and there was obvious ice, fast mode was probably selected (need more info here from FDR/Airline policy). Which means ice would have had to accumulate to danger levels in less than a minute. However, other aircraft on the approach do not report severe icing of any kind during the same time of the approach, flying in the same air and same altitudes.

If any ice protection on the aircraft had failed, the pilots would be alerted via cockpit alerts and will run the checklist/QRH. I have never seen a checklist which allows continued flight into known icing with failed ice protection equipment. Therefore, the pilots would have had to divert to another airport (if able to find an airport with no ice, they would have had fuel for an alternate. Google: IFR Fuel Reserves), or declare an emergency and land at KBUF, which they did not, nor did they indicate any ice protection equipment fail to ATC when they supposedly reported Ice to ATC. This is why we need to see the FDR/CVR. The NTSB has made no mention of an Ice Protect fail and they have reviewed the FDR. If there was an Ice Protect Fail, the NTSB most likely would have said something to that effect by now, if they are offering AP modes to the public.

Keep in mind, the audio provided by liveatc.net is a scanner type of receiver. It seems to have been scanning tower and approach frequencies at Buffalo. When someone speaks, the scanner stops on the freq. If both freq's are 'active' at the same time, some transmission could be cut off. We need to see the "official transcript" for full ATC audio. Colgan 3407 may have reported their ice when the liveatc scanner stopped on the tower freq.

Albert brings up a good point regarding the claims of a "flat" crash. The crash scene reported up to this point claims no signs of forward momentum. Did this thing flat spin into the house?

I would like to see the full ATC transcripts from the time of DL1998 check in to land, FDR and CVR of Colgan 3407, before drawing any conclusions.
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rob balsamo
post Feb 16 2009, 03:44 AM
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Found these on another board....

QUOTE
METARS for KBUF for the past 6 hours...

130254Z is the closest to accident time..

KBUF 130732Z 33009KT 5SM -SN BR FEW008 SCT013 OVC017 M01/M03 A2989 RMK
AO2 P0001

KBUF 130712Z 33009KT 2 1/2SM -SN BR FEW005 BKN009 OVC015 M01/M02 A2989 RMK AO2 P0001

KBUF 130654Z 33009KT 2SM -SN BR FEW004 SCT009 OVC013 M01/M02 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP126 P0001 T10111022

KBUF 130652Z 33008KT 2SM -SN BR FEW004 SCT009 OVC013 M01/M02 A2988 RMK AO2 P0001

KBUF 130612Z 32007KT 2 1/2SM -SN BR BKN007 OVC014 M01/M01 A2986 RMK AO2 CIG 003V010 P0001

KBUF 130554Z COR 32009KT 1SM R23/5000VP6000FT -SN BR BKN005 OVC010 00/M01 A2985 RMK AO2 WSHFT 0548 CIG 003V008 SLP116 P0001 60011 4/001 T00001006 10006 20000 53019

KBUF 130552Z 31010KT 1SM R23/5000VP6000FT -SN BR BKN007 OVC013 00/M01 A2985 RMK AO2 CIG 003V010 P0000

KBUF 130505Z COR 25012KT 4SM -SN BR BKN008 BKN015 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 CIG 005V011 P0000

KBUF 130458Z 25012KT 3SM -FZRA BR BKN008 OVC015 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 FZRAB58SNE58 CIG 005V012 P0000

KBUF 130454Z 26014KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 SLP109 P0004 T00060000 401060000

KBUF 130354Z 24011KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/M01 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP103 P0002 T00061006

KBUF 130254Z 24015G22KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 BKN021 OVC027 01/M01 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP097 P0001 60004 T00061006 51015

KBUF 130154Z 24015G23KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP092 P0001 T00061006

KBUF 130149Z 24015KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 P0001
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JFK
post Feb 16 2009, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 12:28 AM) *
Thanks for posting the cockpit pic JFK.


You are welcome Rob.

Has anyone else been searching for details on the flight computer for that series of plane ?

A pic from THIS document. ( screenshot of cover page only )



Volume 2 Chapter 11 Section 34 page 2

The system used in the Q-400 supplied by Thales looks to be even more sophisticated.
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datars
post Feb 16 2009, 10:19 AM
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Good Post!!! Nice input from everyone.

All be well
Chuck
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rob balsamo
post Feb 16 2009, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 16 2009, 09:12 AM) *
You are welcome Rob.

Has anyone else been searching for details on the flight computer for that series of plane ?


Not sure exactly what 'details' you're looking for as "Flight Computer" is a bit vague. There are many computers to a Flight Management System. The central Flight Management Computer is just an end user "terminal" (if you will) which brings them all together.

The diagram you show above is the communications part of the FMS/FMC, via ACARS.

Anything specific you are looking for?
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JFK
post Feb 16 2009, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Not sure exactly what 'details' you're looking for as "Flight Computer" is a bit vague. There are many computers to a Flight Management System. The central Flight Management Computer is just an end user "terminal" (if you will) which brings them all together.

The diagram you show above is the communications part of the FMS/FMC, via ACARS.

Anything specific you are looking for?


A hypothetical data path originating from the airline operations data link ( or nav sat system ) to the flight control surfaces... For now.
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amazed!
post Feb 16 2009, 03:06 PM
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This is a classic stall/spin accident, with several factors contributing. He did about half turn of the spin, which accounts for the orientation of the aircraft relative to its heading on final.

Apparently the guy had the A/P turned on, in violation of op specs and recommended procedures.

Whereas the pilot might have felt the degraded wing performance because of the ice, the A/P cannot. If there was an angle of attack indicator or recording, it would show very near to critical.
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paranoia
post Feb 17 2009, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 03:18 AM) *
Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a report by the NTSB, i'll give my 2 cents thus far.

According to the ATC audio, winds were not a factor. Wind reports were within 10-20 degrees of runway (IIRC) and around 14 knots.

Also according to the same audio, it appears ice was also not a factor....


thanks for the details about the wind/ice rob. it was exactly the kind of (technical) insight that i
needed to better understand whats (possibly) wrong with (the given cause to) this crash.

btw- did u check the video i linked at the bottom of my post (from ABCnews)?
in it they depicted the plane in a flat spin falling down out of the sky...
but thats ABC not the ntsb,
so their animation/simulation of the event doesnt really count for anything "official".

and speaking of animations,

here is NBC Nightly News's report (with their own simulation) that aired tonight:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/29226906#29226906

note the seeds being planted:







ohmy.gif

sad.gif
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paranoia
post Feb 17 2009, 12:22 AM
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ETA: some wreckage that survived:




(one of the engines)
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rob balsamo
post Feb 17 2009, 12:40 AM
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Saw the vid.... interesting... thanks.
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Omega892R09
post Feb 17 2009, 11:49 AM
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For those interested in Buffalo/Niagara airport details:

FAA info

Note that all IAPs look to have been changed as of 15.01.09.

Now I personally would not read too much into that as from not being a professional pilot and not having looked at these details before I do not know if such changes are usual or significant.
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Graeme
post Feb 18 2009, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (Ricochet @ Feb 13 2009, 08:54 PM) *


Look guys I'm new to here and it’s my first Post.

Actually, I'm very grateful for your accepting me into the group as today I am working against my second stage of the Grieving Process, it would seem and I've been fuming mad, but only after I started to encounter what I perceived, no doubt rather non-objectively, one-sidedly, as apathy from other 9/11-Truth Groups.

I am not a Pilot and I respect you for the qualified work you do. I am a radio technician type.
But I am also an advocate for Beverley Eckert's 9/11 Testimony, that of the final conversation she had with her husband on floor 105 WTC 2. Accordingly, I did have some emotional investment with Beverley and those feelings immediately became intense on Saturday morning when I learnt of the event.

You see, I am perhaps, misguidedly trying to promote a Benefit/Tribute do of some kind for Bev Eckert who died on the flight, I still can't believe I'm saying that .. it really sucks .. Because I've been helping promote her Final testimony words with her husband, regarding an explosion they heard on the cellphone, out into the public Domain — and greatly succeeding.

I have as you'd expect taken this event rather personally. I didn't know her personally, I've never met her in person but I had accepted her offer, after much delay, to investigate the reports she made regarding the explosion at 105, explanations for which NIST, who she addressed personally (as you can imagine in her capacity), but whom were not helpful, did not come to pass to her satisfaction. I have a whole Online Document accurately describing the whole story and ... so on.

In reflection, I actually feel, though I can't be certain of it, that she came back to me, after 7 months from my enquiry to her, suggesting that I look into it, or perhaps she knew I would publicise her words widely. The BBC 5th Anniversary of 9/11 Radio Program transmissions, edited her testimony, removing the words "an explosion and" from her accounts of the phone call. This is what caught my attention. From that very moment on, which was extremely alarming and personal for me, I became passionately involved, well to my best offs, in finding out, what the darn was going on. Why would the BBC edit Beverley's explicit references to "an explosion and", from her very emotional & personal testimony.

That phone call is apparently now held in a NYC museum as part of a memorial exhibit, I learned just the other day.

Perhaps, only perhaps and I really deeply spiritually question the supplied inference from the psych books that I'm in the bargaining phase of Grief ie: "Traditionally the bargaining stage for people facing death can involve attempting to bargain with whatever God the person believes in. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise ..."

Anyways, you now know who and what I am. Back onto the Flight Comms Transcription

I'm not much good at understanding this pilot talk, and I'm a long long term active Radio Ham or amateur as us limeys like to be known, yet still I can't get my head around a lot of this 'quick fire' break talk that you airline Pilots seem to use.

However, I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT "SQUARKS" are as present on ATC screens and radar. I got a tour of a Fylingdales networked SSPAR PAVE-PAWS Ballistic Missile early warning system setup. They had it all going, "SQUARK" ID's on screen and all...

So to help me I got hold of this interpretation of the transcript from what appears to be a guy who knows the lingo ... and the technology ... he may well be an ex aviator ... whatever. So, this is what our man made of it, I'm not sure it's a correct analysis or interpretation of the breakdown in communications & transponder signals etc. What do you think, but more importantly Gentlemen, and I'll not delay in asking - "What do you know".

Read on please:

"Read the transcript of the final communications from flight 3407. ...

3407 is there one moment, then gone the next.

Now, look at this line from the transcript.
17:40 - delta 1998: uh negative, delta 1998, we're just in the bottoms and nothing on the TKs
Listening to the tape, it sounds like what the pilot of 1998 said was "... nothing on the TCAS."
TCAS (pronounced T-cass) stands for Traffic Collision Avoidance System, which sends out a lower power non-directional radar pulse and listens for any aircraft transponders in the vicinity. in order to warn pilots of close approaching aircraft. So, what the pilot of Delta 1998 is saying is that at the time ATC asked him to look for a Dash-8 at 2300, 3407's radar transponders had quit working.

One final note. If the Air Traffic Controller is telling the pilot of Delta 1998 to look at 2300 feet altitude for the Dash 8, then that means the last altitude reading returned to the ATC was 2300 feet. Air Traffic radar never received a return showing a loss of altitude, which strongly suggests that the aircraft's entire electrical system quit working while the plane was still half a mile in the air."


So again, the "SQUARK", if there ever was a permanent one transmitting, I don't know, had gone at the same time as the Communications and it would appear too, the entire electrical system, by inference, of Continental 3407.

Again, many thanks, for letting me in.

.... Sorry it's so long winded ... But this is only the beginning. I want to get to the bottom of this ... I lost someone I had an investment with ... And my position as her Advocate in death remains, even more strong than it was when she was with us.

Graeme.

PS/ My Amateur Radio Callsign by the way is: GM4BRB. (Full ticket since 1972).
A sked for voice contact via Echolink can be arranged at any time.

This post has been edited by Graeme: Feb 18 2009, 05:52 PM
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grizz
post Feb 18 2009, 05:44 PM
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aka Oceans Flow


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welcome.gif Welcome to Pilots!
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Graeme
post Feb 18 2009, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (grizz @ Feb 18 2009, 10:44 PM) *
welcome.gif Welcome to Pilots!

Thanks MATE!
I shall do my Profile another day, as if you need to know anymore ... hi.
Time for a Cuppa over here, it's 23.00z
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painter
post Feb 18 2009, 06:02 PM
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Wow. Yes, welcome to the forum Graeme HowDy.gif
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rob balsamo
post Feb 18 2009, 06:18 PM
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ILS Approach plate for KBUF Runway 23.
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 13 2009, 04:55 PM) *


Welcome to the forum Graeme. Here is the ATC Transcript/audio i told you about via email.
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 13 2009, 10:56 PM) *
Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcript

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.




Interesting to note if last radar return was at 2300 feet as pointed out by Graeme. If anyone finds altitude of last radar return, please post it here.
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Leslie Landry
post Mar 1 2009, 10:02 PM
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FSB reports are stating today that American fascist coup forces currently engaged in a bitter struggle for control of the United States against forces loyal to President Obama, have assassinated one of the top witnesses against them by downing the plane she was a passenger on with an EMP device they have previously used to silence those ready to testify against them, and which now has killed another 50 innocent victims.

According to these reports, Beverly Eckert [photo top left] became one of the top advocates of bringing to justice those responsible for the September 11, 2001 attacks which claimed her husbands life who vowed that 'My Silence Cannot Be Bought', and after receiving President Obama's 'personal assurance' at their meeting last week that he was going to prosecute those involved, was in route to Chicago to present evidence to US Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald who was, likewise this past week, retained in his position by the new American President intent upon winning the titanic struggle he has taken on against this most ferocious of enemies.



<SPAN>As a member of the Family Steering Committee for the 9/11 Independent Commission that sought truthful answers to their beloved family members deaths, Ms Eckert was reported to be 'voracious' in attempting to bring to justice the criminals responsible and had posed to the former Bush Government the following unanswered questions that to this very date have still not been answered:
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Leslie Landry
post Mar 1 2009, 10:13 PM
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for some reason..it wont let me post the rest of the artical nor the link...very odd. maybe it will work in a different format. here is the rest of the article and link to previous post



President George W. Bush: As Commander-in-Chief on the morning of 9/11, why didn’t you return immediately to Washington, D.C. or the National Military Command Center once you became aware that America was under attack? At specifically what time did you become aware that America was under attack? Who informed you of this fact?

Vice President Richard Cheney: Please discuss the advice and plans of the Energy Advisory Council specifically as they relate to pipeline development and gas/oil exploration in Afghanistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and the feasibility of such development or exploration specifically in those two countries in 2001.

Condoleezza Rice: Regarding the meeting of Abdullah Abdullah (close aide to Massoud and now the Afghan Foreign Minister) in July , 2001, with “some top National Security Council (NSC) and State Department officials,” what information about al Qaeda did he convey?

George Tenet, Director of the CIA: Why didn't the CIA share vital information about the terrorists with the FBI?

Robert Mueller, FBI Director: Which hijackers have been positively identified by DNA? Is the FBI in possession of DNA samples for all of the hijackers?

Questions for Director Mueller Regarding the Hijackers: Please explain how the passports of Mohammed Atta and Satam al-Sugam, both on Flight 11, survived the inferno to be found on the street near the World Trade Center.

•Who found the passports and what time where they found?

•Please describe the condition of each passport.

•Please explain how the passports of two hijackers survived the explosion and inferno.

In what is, perhaps, the cruelest twist of fate in the deaths of Ms Eckert and her fellow passengers, the US propaganda media machine has been employing the exact same public manipulation tactics used in the 9/11 attacks, and where even before the fires had been extinguished or any investigation begun, it had been predetermined that ice was to be the cause of this horrific event.

So many ‘experts’ have been put before the American people in just the first day that it is now the accepted wisdom that ice was indeed the cause making all other evidence to the contrary suspect in these poor peoples minds.

But, to this ‘other’ evidence makes the more logical case supporting the FSB’s assertion that this plane crash was an assassination as just moments before the planes fatal plunge into the ground Russian satellites detected what is described as a ‘low level’ Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) emanating from an area located near the Eastern parts of Lake Erie in the United States.

About EMP weapons it is important to note: “Scientists discovered that a nuclear bomb was not necessary to create an EMP Weapon and they managed to produce EMP weapons of considerably small size, the idea was to create an EMP suitcase bomb that could be taken into an enemy building and detonated without casualties with the destruction of all electrical equipment in the building paralyzing the enemy data center.”

And, though not largely known, destructive EMP weapons are simple to make and deploy with plans and kits for EMP pulse generators and Low Power Pulse Guns available for purchase in the US for as little as $15.00.

Even more important to note is that Russian Space Authorities ability to effectively monitor EMP events over North America were ‘significantly’ degraded due to the destruction of one of their satellites this past week, and which we had reported on in our February 12th report, “Russia Issues Nuclear Attack Warning Over US Takedown Of Satellite”.

The use by US Intelligence Agencies of EMP weapons to target the planes of their enemies was first used in 1972 against Dorothy Hunt who was the wife of CIA Agent and Watergate conspirator E. Howard Hunt. Ms Hunt, and just like Ms Eckert, was on a ‘mission’ to Chicago to testify in her husbands defense when her plane was brought down on December 8, 1972, and which upon her death kept her husband in silence till upon his deathbed he confessed to being a part of the fascist assassination team that murdered President Kennedy in 1963.

To the greater significance of these events it lies in how, even to this day, the American people are still able to be continually deceived by the fascist forces manipulating them and who have faithfully followed the maxims of their German Nazi forbearers best exampled by the words of Adolph Hitler…

“Tell a lie often enough, loud enough, and long enough, and people will believe you.”

So it remains that our reporting of the truth of these events will be subsumed by the lies being poured by the minute into the minds of these Americans, who not for one second will even question the facts for themselves.

[Ed. Note: The United States government actively seeks to find, and silence, any and all opinions about the United States except those coming from authorized government and/or affiliated sources, of which we are not one. No interviews are granted and very little personal information is given about our contributors, or their sources, to protect their safety.] .

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