The Movement, Social Fears, Economy, The Future, (IOW- concrete & WTC ), merged Options

[painter]

The question remains,
if airplanes were not the cause of the collapses,
then why and how did those buildings collapse?

Are you being rhetorical -- for the sake of argument -- what?

We have multiple characteristics of controlled demolition and none of the characteristics of gravity driven "collapse," and yet you say, "the question remains ..." Why?

[painter]

BUT they all STILL continue to promote the nonsense, we can competently speculate that some of the most breathless, compulsively deluded NPT'ists are probably MKultra victims.

You know, I was going to pass this up but I've decided it needs to be said. Chris has it occurred to you yet that YOU might be a victim of an MKultra or some other mind-control experiment? Has it occurred to you that the video you recall seeing -- no copies of which can be found anywhere -- may be A) a planted memory under controlled conditions or B) may have been disinformation disseminated to the public at that time and later withdrawn?

I'm not saying it was or wasn't or that you are or aren't -- I have no evidence one way or the other except your compulsive behavior which I've been observing on various internet forums for YEARS.

Jebitz, Chris! We now have Leslie Robertson, chief engineer of the WTC stating publicly via email that there were no concrete cores at the WTC. In other words, we have independent verification of a proposition in direct contradiction to your claim. NOW either he is lying or he is telling the truth and it is up to you to PROVE IT one way or the other. For you to be taken seriously on this forum or anywhere else you're going to have to come up with some hard evidence, independent evidence. Go to New York, track down Leslie, get him on camera and ask him to repeat what he has said via email. Track down the other members of the engineering team or the construction team -- get them on camera and ask them to either confirm or deny the existence of a concrete core at the WTC. In other words, do some real investigative research that demands more than sitting in a chair day in and day out posting what amounts to unconfirmed opinion on internet forums.

[lunk]

Are you being rhetorical -- for the sake of argument -- what?

We have multiple characteristics of controlled demolition and none of the characteristics of gravity driven "collapse," and yet you say, "the question remains ..." Why?

I should have used the word demolition.
My bad.

I guess the why, has been answered,
It was an excuse to start another war,
and bring in war measures.

The, how it was done, is still sort of up in the air.

imo, lunk

[Christophera]

Chris, you've been posting on this forum for some time now. Have you viewed the research done by P4T and CIT? All of it? Any of it? What makes you think you are over anyone's target with a hypothesis that, to date, has no independent verification?
(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I don't question P4T's hypothesis in anyway, I question that the information is useful in gaining more truth. If you believe it is useful in the current situation with its history and conditions, please post exactly how here,

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=16369

Plane stuff is valid info to learn more about and track the reasons things happened, but without an accountable government, the info is too subject to interpretation by the public to justify their wide support. So at this time, in these conditions, the info is not useful.

It all comes down to how much we want or need the truth and whether or not we can divest our investments in information that has social adhesion in order to work together in action that can eventually address all pertinant and valid information such as planes, ...... for instance.

A process is evident as in any repair for example. Want to change a transmission? You will need wrenches, but you will need the jack first. Analogously, the cart and horse, or if you want to use a firehose to fight a fire, you have to pump water.

I now indicate EXACTLY why I focus on the concrete core as it completely relates to usefulness as I've defined above.

The fact of FEMA deception to NIST regarding the core structure invalidates the cause of death analysis of thousands of people making another compulsory.

I do not feel that the images of the concrete surrounding the core area are subject to the same uncertainties of interpretation. Construction laborers know the differences. We do not need experts, we simply need to identify a problem and ask for public scrutiny of it and gather opinion.

This is why I have stan following me around and LC forum doing what they do in support of the official structural story, and the govt loyalist site members honoring me with a victory video that has now been removed from youtube. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif) Since, once again, reason and evidence has prevailed at BFN and here, as yet more people realize that the truth explains things while a concrete core explains free fall and total pulverization. Events that completely dominate 9-11 in an immense physical fashion at the WTC.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 7 2009, 06:16 PM

[rob balsamo]

I don't question P4T's hypothesis in anyway,

Ok.. now you got my attention Christopher...

Please quote one "hypothesis" offered by P4T from http://pilotsfor911truth.org.

I question that the information is useful in gaining more truth.

It is more useful because its all fact based on hard data provided by the govt, which conflicts with their own story. You would know this if you read through it. You certainly would not be describing it as "hypothesis". Please read our mission statement atop our home page. Pay particular attention to the underlined sentence.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org

Thank you...

[Sanders]

I don't question P4T's hypothesis in anyway, I question that the information is useful in gaining more truth...

I am dumbfounded.

Please stop posting here.

[Christophera]

Which do not verify your case. You imply that these things are withheld because the construction of the core was different that what is commonly believed, but there's no reason to assume that, there may be other (obvious) reasons why they would try to keep blueprints out of public hands.

Aahmmmmm. Dear Sanders, you just cherry picked from my comment and left out the response provided to the issue you try an make. I quote myself to evidence this assertion.

Really, ........... guiliani takes the plans? NIST never has them for their "analysis". The only plans the movement has come from silverstein and they bear obvious signs of digital tampering. How much circumstance is needed before conspiracy of deception propagated within the truth movement is suspected?

Is this not about research? Is this not about questioning the official story? Shall we fairly focus on what reasonably pursues with research, intelligent and comprehensive questioning?

Demolitions, if they are done halfway right, always proceed at near free fall speed, whether the vertical load of the building is born by steel columns or reinforced concrete. There are techniques for blowing up concrete, and there are techniques for cutting up steel beams.

But, .......... you haven't provided any and compared it to what happened in NYC on 9-11. I do and I demonstrate it is NOT the sound of steel being cut on the scale needed.

WTC 9-11

CUTTING STEEL

There was plenty of concrete present in the WTC without having to resort to a hypothesis of a reinforced concrete core, and Thermate, evidence for the use of which was found and confirmed by Steven Jones and evidenced by the presence of molten iron in the rubble of the WTC, is specifically good for cutting up structural steel.

All you need to do is produce evidence of thermite being used on the scale you suggest from the top down, and you comment would be verified as a viable explanation. Without that evidence, I think not.

Because JFK talked about secrecy you infer that everything is a secret and rumors of steel core columns are part of a coverup? Are you LISTENING to yourself???

No, I'm reading what WE have written.

You are connecting JFK and the secrets of construction then to a cover up now, not I. I am evidencing a coverup now and only refer to JFK as speaking publicly then, voicing concerns about secrecy then.

Do you think we should always keep the context supportive of using reason and evidence, .... rather than distorting the context encouraging rejection of reason and evidence?

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 7 2009, 06:34 PM

[Sanders]

Is this not about research? Is this not about questioning the official story? Shall we fairly focus on what reasonably pursues with research, intelligent and comprehensive questioning?

You quoted yourself and not my response. You are CONSTANTLY using arguments to support your claims which can be interpreted any number of ways, the withholding of blueprints being a prime example.

You are connecting JFK and the secrets of construction then to a cover up now, not I

YOU said this:

My theory only depends on secrecy. We lost a president because he talked about secrecy about the same time the construction on the towers was started.

And from that I stated that you "INFER" a connection. That's the word I used!

Who's not being honest here?

[Christophera]

You know, I was going to pass this up but I've decided it needs to be said. Chris has it occurred to you yet that YOU might be a victim of an MKultra or some other mind-control experiment?

I am definitely a victim of a mind control conspiracy. I know who did it and why. It was indigenous Americans trying to prevent a takeover of this nation by very dark forces. That is why they set up the producers of the documentary titled "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers". That is why I was post hypnotically directed to watch and REMEMBER everything I saw and heard in the documentary.
This experience makes me an authority in mind control and identifying its secret use in social settings. I can support what I claim with EVIDENCE.

I have incorporated that evidence into a documentary with a 1 hour length for the purposes of exposing hidden history. Watch it please. It is entertaining, educating and moves quickly. A public access producer from Ann Arbor Michigan added an intro that makes it easier to understand for people not from this area.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=21...idden+knowledge

Has it occurred to you that the video you recall seeing -- no copies of which can be found anywhere -- may be A) a planted memory under controlled conditions or B) may have been disinformation disseminated to the public at that time and later withdrawn?

I've found at least 3 people that are quite sure they saw the exact same video, and 3 others that have seen videos showing and talking about the concrete core. I'm hoping to convince them to make statements that will be verified without revealing their identity.

I'm not saying it was or wasn't or that you are or aren't -- I have no evidence one way or the other except your compulsive behavior which I've been observing on various internet forums for YEARS.

Generally people that are trying to alert the inhabitants of a burning building that the building is on fire, behave in a way that the inhabitants feel is compulsive. They hopefully get over it.

Jebitz, Chris! We now have Leslie Robertson, chief engineer of the WTC stating publicly via email that there were no concrete cores at the WTC. In other words, we have independent verification of a proposition in direct contradiction to your claim.

No we don't, we have somebody posting text claiming it is Robertson.

NOW either he is lying or he is telling the truth and it is up to you to PROVE IT one way or the other.

Because of what Newsweek printed on http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/...com/id/3069641/
September 13, 2001 and the FACT that images show what can only be concrete,
, and there are many of them, while there are none of the FEMA core columns, logically, I do not have to. Reasonably I do not have to IF we need the truth.

For you to be taken seriously on this forum or anywhere else you're going to have to come up with some hard evidence, independent evidence. Go to New York, track down Leslie, get him on camera and ask him to repeat what he has said via email. Track down the other members of the engineering team or the construction team -- get them on camera and ask them to either confirm or deny the existence of a concrete core at the WTC. In other words, do some real investigative research that demands more than sitting in a chair day in and day out posting what amounts to unconfirmed opinion on internet forums.

I would not now, nor could I now, do such a thing. gage could do what you suggest and gage says he stands for truth. gage is the expert evading his obligation to do what he says he is doing, or, perhaps he is not really doing that. He will not produce evidence from 9-11 showing the supposed steel core columns in the core area, nor will he comment upon the evidence for a concrete core.

This is concrete and it is a fact that no one has ever provided a competent explanation for what it might alternatively be.

(IMG:http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif)

I know exactly how the core of the Twins was constructed and the evidence supports my assertions. Period. This is about questioning the official story, .... correct?

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 7 2009, 06:59 PM

[Leslie Landry]

This is concrete and it is a fact that no one has ever provided a competent explanation for what it might alternatively be.

(IMG:http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif)

I know exactly how the core of the Twins was constructed and the evidence supports my assertions. Period. This is about questioning the official story, .... correct?

what about questioning on how authentic something is? where did you get this picture?

[painter]

I know exactly how the core of the Twins was constructed and the evidence supports my assertions. Period.

Yeah, you and six other people on the whole planet, apparently.

I'm not going to go round'n'round with you. You can contact Leslie Robertson yourself. You can locate other people on his engineering team. You can verify or falsify your own contention based on their answers to the question presented. Don't pass this responsibility on to anyone else.

Oh, and for gods sake, if you want to be taken anywhere near seriously by anyone who, rightly or wrongly, regards themselves as sane, do NOT start off by telling them, "I am definitely a victim of a mind control conspiracy."

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[painter]

what about questioning on how authentic something is? where did you get this picture?

On another thread I posted blow-ups of a much higher resolution version -- don't have time to go looking for them now. The point is, it is a Rorschach -- one can see whatever one wants. Even at high resolution it is inconclusive -- except to Chris of course. He's certain he knows exactly what he's looking at. And maybe he's right! But I'm not going to believe it just because he says so. He needs to find us some independent and verifiable evidence that is conclusive not speculative.

Over and out.

[lunk]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=21...idden+knowledge

Thanks for the video, Christophera.
I found it fascinating.
...a bit bizarre, but fascinating.

cheers, lunk

[albertchampion]

thnx, sanders.

this is an aircraft site. not an architectural site. as a lowly intersector of this site, i can only say that it has been very forgiving. but there comes a time. chris may have it accurately about a concrete core. but, to my mind, in a very real sense, that is irrelevant to what this board has been founded to concentrate upon: aircraft and the atc system on that very strange day in september[a day of at least one other coup, by the way:chile in 1973], at the very least.

chris'es home is elsewhere. but, as i understand it, he was asked to leave.

there is no doubt in my mind that concrete core techniques are employed for skyscrapers today. the replacement wtc7 contractor[tishman-speyer]touts that technique for that building, in fact.

is that issue relevant to the revelation of the coup? no, it is not. the key to the revelation of the coup is the aircraft, the utilization of the aircraft.

but, i could be getting it inaccurately.

[painter]

but, i could be getting it inaccurately.

Well -- the FORUM as it exists came into being with the demise of LCF1 -- if you don't know that history and you want to, PM me.

The P4T Organization and the forum are two separate (although obviously related) entities. Just to clear that up a bit.

But what is the topic of this thread? Which forum are we in again?

Like Sanders, I too am "dumbfounded" but hardly surprised. Chris isn't here because he is interested in P4T. About that he hasn't a clue and could obviously not care less.

[rob balsamo]

Feel free to split/merge/move posts which are off topic... and warn as appropriate... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[albertchampion]

it's true. i don't know anything about the history of this site. i have made some inferences. they could be inaccurate.

perhaps you could post a history?

ciao.

[Christophera]

what about questioning on how authentic something is? where did you get this picture?

The image is clipped from this site.

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/index.shtm

There is not one image that shows steel columns in the core area of either tower. There is one that many who do not know the structure may think shows "core columns", but it does not. It is very zoomed and the vertical steel seen is hard to place. This video shows the specific vertical steel and locates it as the first row of elevator guide rail suppost steel inside the concrete core wall. Pieces of the wall can be seen with vertical gaps and guide rail support seen between it then tumbling out of the wall with large peices of concrete awkwardly weighting the bases.

See it at 14 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIZp6aOibiM

[Christophera]

Yeah, you and six other people on the whole planet, apparently.

I'm not going to go round'n'round with you. You can contact Leslie Robertson yourself. You can locate other people on his engineering team. You can verify or falsify your own contention based on their answers to the question presented. Don't pass this responsibility on to anyone else.

Oh, and for gods sake, if you want to be taken anywhere near seriously by anyone who, rightly or wrongly, regards themselves as sane, do NOT start off by telling them, "I am definitely a victim of a mind control conspiracy."

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

No, I have never believed I can contact Leslie Robertson, and personally I do not need to in order to do what I am doing. Maybe for you to be able to invest in this verified infomation, yes, verified, but not by officials or authorities because they have turned their back on us. He's been put through enough as it is and I won't add to it or endanger him with frivolous demands that might risk his life or those he loves.
The evidence is in front of your eyes to resolve this structural issue and it explains the event with what I've put together from the documentary which I'm sure exceeds anything Robertson knows beyond the fact that it had a concrete tubular core.

And if you think at this late date I worry about what people think when they can't relate the only feasible explanation in existence for 2, 1,350 foot towers going to the ground in 10 seconds a piece to facts, my point is that they need to know how I know and I'll tell them. I don't go for social fears being in control, not reasonable. That is how we got into this problem.

This responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of all Americans. It falls squarely on the shoulders of those who say they seek the truth to police our own ranks as well as we might and not shirk such duty. I've done more than my part in assembling the evidence from 9-11 and GZ that shows the concrete core as the actual design.

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

As well as produced a 16 minute 2 part video that has more useful information in it for explanation of what happened to the towers than all of the other hours of 9-11 video combined.

Twin Tower Deception and Demolition I

Twin Tower Deception and Demolition II

No don't go "around and around". Perhaps post that alternative feasible explanation I've asked for or give a detailed description of how the steel core columns were cut in so many pieces we cannot see them and make free fall. Or forget the concrete core. Instead just come up with a step by step use for the plane information P4T has been working on as I've asked for.

Or get really serious and get these other people here that are tired of seeing me assert this fact with reason and evidence and not be able to give them the "6'oclock news" type instant gratification they are used to when it comes to info on world shaking events, and make a joint letter to the 9-11 truth researcher, structural maesto, gage and get his photographic evidence from 9-11 showing steel core columns in the core area that he uses to justify his belief in the official, FEMA story of the structure. Get him to comment on the images showing what can only be interpreted as concrete surrounding the core from 9-11 and GZ images. Get his comment on the fact the plans he links to from his site do not match what is found on the ground.

I've been trying for years now and he only evades. gage is the demo guy, Robertson is too close to the heart of the matter to be free to safely participate in the exposure of the truth. I'm probably the last person he would talk to about this, if anyone at all. BTW, I would not trust anybody on his team to tell the truth on this matter either.

This one is up to us. Would you join in a lawsuit against guiliani for taking the plans and not returning them to NYC offices? Malfesance, non feasance, neglect, endangerment, theft?

I would but am currently very disempowered in about every way, and I could prove that with facts, but facts don't seem to have weight and I was hoping the video would illustrate some of that, but a person has to watch closely what is shown and listen well to what is said then research aspects to realize the significance of it.

[Christophera]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=21...idden+knowledge

Thanks for the video, Christophera.
I found it fascinating.
...a bit bizarre, but fascinating.

cheers, lunk

You are welcome. Correct, bizarre.

See if you can find any reference to HR2204 in history, you won't. Now that is bizarre. It is a shameful abuse of power and violation of of every treatise ever made with the Indigenous people. The originals just happen to be made available to me, along with everything else, all I had to do was reach out and grab it.