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9/11: John Lear - Disinformation? Cia Operative?

Omega892R09
post Aug 31 2009, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE (lunk @ Aug 28 2009, 10:59 AM) *
Imagination is the most powerful force in the universe.
All new things, have to be imagined first,...

Or studied working in the natural world first.
Edit:
Which brings in that which Painter mentioned, 'consciousness'.

This post has been edited by Omega892R09: Aug 31 2009, 10:44 AM
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Trapster
post Aug 31 2009, 12:26 PM
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It's not my place to express any opinion about Core Members bring 'ejected' from P4T.

I expressed an overall opinion, and that's where I will leave it.

I don't possess an ounce of 'aeronautical' expertise in evaluating anyone or any theory. But I like to think that I can conduct a little 'critical thinking' on the subject.

Cheers
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painter
post Aug 31 2009, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE (lunk @ Aug 30 2009, 10:53 PM) *


Yeah. Good rant. This is getting close to the heart of it, IMO. It has to do with us. If we can't change ourselves in some significant way, how can we expect to bring about equally significant external changes? WE (those of us living and those of us past) made the conditions for 9/11 (and all this BS) possible. WE have participated in our own subjugation for generations. We've also struggled against it for generations. And HERE is where we are NOW.

Step 1: What kind of world do we want? I mean personally, what do you want, what do I want?

I have to really think about this and delve into it and be willing to look at my own INNER CONTRADICTIONS about what I want. If I say I want a world of "peace" (for example) but don't see how I, through my ignorance and apathy and consumption of resources that rightly belong to someone else (for example), then I'm just fooling myself. If I say I want THE TRUTH but am not willing to look for it in myself as well as in the world around me, then what "truth" is it I really want except the further aggrandizement of my own ego? The truth f*cking hurts, dude! -- and yes, it can set you free.

Step 2: How do we get from here to there? I mean all of us and I men you and I.

Like the guy said, we need to know where we are, how we got here, and where we want to go. If I can see what kind of world I want and begin to see what keeps me from having it -- how I keep myself and everyone else locked up in deceptions about myself and the world -- maybe there is some way out of this mess. It ain't gona happen over night. Human beings have made great technological strides in the past century or so. NOW it is time to make great strides sociologically and within ourselves from a meta-psychological POV. The more conscious and aware we can become of ourselves and of our own inner contradictions, the MORE effective we're going to become in terms of addressing this absolute MESS we've made of the world (economically, politically, socially, environmentally and every other way). Yes, it is true, there are psychopaths who have played a HUGE role in getting us here -- that can not be ignored. But, at the same time, who let these nut-cases stake over in the first place? Who has allowed them to run this ship right into the ironshore? We may not be able to control what they do -- but we CAN control what we do -- and when it comes right down to it, all the 'power' they have depends upon someone else doing something for THEM.

Anyway . . . as far as I'm concerned, the whole John Lear thing is a NON issue. I get where people are coming from about it but I think they're concern is misplaced. Who is making this an issue? The media? Nope. I haven't seen it if they have. Do they disparage us? Oh, sure. Nothing new there. It is to be expected. Do we have to give a damn what they say? No, we don't. We take back our power. THEY no longer determine WHAT 'truth' I believe in. Neither does anyone else. It's up to me. I've revoked my tacit 'consent' to be 'governed' by these ass hats. I'm dedicated to seeing to it that their lies become more transparent to more people everyday. The genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back in.
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dMz
post Aug 31 2009, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (lunk @ Aug 30 2009, 11:53 PM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExfV50H-mak

Now that's entertainment!

Trying to get back on track...

It's an asset to "see more", wrong or right.
I see no divisions, in imagination.
but I can imagine how division can weaken a cause.

Thank you my "brother lunk," for that was an "aptly-timed" response to my "pseudo"-"frustrated" with all this pseudo-"disinfo" BULLSHIT! (I have been watching several "frontiers" [both personally and "politically"] for QUITE a WHILE now..

My "radar" ranges far (I'm afraid...)
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Quest
post Aug 31 2009, 08:23 PM
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John Lear, do you mind if I ask you a few questions? The post linked below states in detail my opinion on the UFO aspect, in particular how the NWO began hoaxing the USA and the WORLD for that matter on the idea that UFOs exist and have been perpetrating this hoax for over 50 years and well BEFORE the 1947 Roswell crash in a strategy known as "Predictive Programming". I strongly believe the UFO phenomenon is a man-made, NWO creation in an attempt to "rally people of the world against the external threat". In other words, a hoax, just like 911, the Apollo missions, the USS LIberty, the Gulf Of Tonkin and on and on....

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10775912

Also mentioned in my post is how the NWO looked for threats not only among the human population but extra-terrestrial as well as pretexts to usher in a one-world-government. As mentioned earlier, the hoaxing began BEFORE the 1947 Roswell 'crash' in a NWO operation some refer to as PREDICTIVE PROGRAMMING. Predictive programming is also what the NWO, it's media and Hollywood use to make plausibe "terrorist threats" and "flu plagues" or any other theoretically disastrous issue that can be used as tool to push a police state and one-world-government.

I wish to ask these questions to feel you out and understand why you believe the UFOs are "real" as opposed to man-made hoaxes. For purposes of being thorough I am going to ask some questions that for some may seem almost obvious or rhetorical; but I am not going to assume what you do and don't know on any aspect of the UFO issue. In the process maybe we can clear up as to what you are about. So, here goes...

1. Are you aware that Princeton University, CBS and the Council On Foriegn Relations (an NWO entity) were behind the 1938 radio broadcast of The "War Of The Worlds" in which the USA was hoaxed into believing we were being invaded by "martians"?
http://www.hourofthetime.com/warofthe.htm

2. Are you aware that Prescott Bush and his banking cronies helped build Hitler's war machine prior to WW2 and continued doing so AFTER the war began?
http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

3. Are you aware that BEFORE the occurence of the 1947 Roswell "saucer crash" that Hitler's Nazi SS were already (supposedly) in the process of trying to build saucer-like craft?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHLXKXxV7YU...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8RNLbxbIeo
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/hitlersufo.html
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/ufonazi.html

4. Are you aware that after WW2 that the American military brought many Nazi scientists to the US to work for the Pentagon and intelligence in "Operation Paperclip"?

5. Are you aware that the USA was also, at least since 1950, trying to build saucer-like craft?
http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/FlyingSau...ingSaucers.html

6. Are you aware of Henry Kissinger's and Ronald Reagan's statements regarding the supposed UFO threat and a call for "people of the world to unite" against it?
http://www.timstouse.com/UFOs/ronaldreagan.htm
http://www.whale.to/b/kissinger_w.html
QUOTE
Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government.
Henry Kissinger

7. Do you find it at all curious that with all of the UFO sightings around the world for the better part of 5 decades, that the only crash that took place where a spacecraft was supposedly captured along with "aliens" was adjacent to an air force base(Roswell)?

8. Lastly, what proof do you have that any supposed alien spacecraft or beings have visited this planet besides second hand accounts as in the case of Bob Lazar? Do you have any 1st hand experiences regarding UFOs or aliens?

Thanks for your patience, John.

This post has been edited by Quest: Sep 2 2009, 08:32 PM
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painter
post Aug 31 2009, 09:51 PM
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Quest, why don't you post these questions in the Alt Theories forum thread created specifically for this purpose?
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Quest
post Aug 31 2009, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Sep 1 2009, 02:51 AM) *
Quest, why don't you post these questions in the Alt Theories forum thread created specifically for this purpose?


Sorry, Painter. Will do. That's what I thought this thread was for. Would you mind splitting this post from the thread and moving it there? I just don't want to break the links to articles/vidoes in this post and then have to search for the material again.

Thanks!

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JimMac
post Sep 1 2009, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Aug 31 2009, 02:32 PM) *
Anyway . . . as far as I'm concerned, the whole John Lear thing is a NON issue. I get where people are coming from about it but I think they're concern is misplaced. Who is making this an issue? The media? Nope. I haven't seen it if they have. Do they disparage us? Oh, sure. Nothing new there. It is to be expected. Do we have to give a damn what they say? No, we don't. We take back our power. THEY no longer determine WHAT 'truth' I believe in. Neither does anyone else. It's up to me. I've revoked my tacit 'consent' to be 'governed' by these ass hats. I'm dedicated to seeing to it that their lies become more transparent to more people everyday. The genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back in.


I am of the opinion that we who are ' in the know ' got here by a lot of work. I know I did, just sorting through all the bullshit. We are a small fringe element. Nothing with any mass behind it - yet - what I am hoping is that the truth still counts. All we can do is push it. I pushed it this last weekend again at a family and friends party. I found two farmers in the group who responded, cousins. One, a savvy 72 year old farmer from Sask, with his pilots license i might add, responded by saying, he just knew something wasn't right with the story, because those buildings mushroomed down, in his words. My point of view was an affirmation for him about something he'd already been thinking. Then he went on to tell me about how he'd lost trust with government long ago. I hope eventually he might dig around for himself. I planted the seed.
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aerohead
post Sep 1 2009, 09:35 PM
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National Geographic had a special last night (mon. aug 31).
I didnt watch it but i did go the their forums and read the
replies. Seemed like 90% of the people replying were
raising the BS flag and some were ripping on the owner
Rupert Murdoch who also owns Fox News Channel and is
at the head of the worlds largest media empire.

Nat Geo Forum on their 9/11 BS

Its gonna be on again Saturday at 9 Pm. I think im gonna
watch it, just so i know how hard to laugh at the sheep
who believe it.

The Truth movement is growing by the hour........
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JimMac
post Sep 1 2009, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (JimMac @ Sep 1 2009, 08:58 PM) *
I am of the opinion that we who are ' in the know ' got here by a lot of work. I know I did, just sorting through all the bullshit. We are a small fringe element. Nothing with any mass behind it - yet - what I am hoping is that the truth still counts. All we can do is push it. I pushed it this last weekend again at a family and friends party. I found two farmers in the group who responded, cousins. One, a savvy 72 year old farmer from Sask, with his pilots license i might add, responded by saying, he just knew something wasn't right with the story, because those buildings mushroomed down, in his words. My point of view was an affirmation for him about something he'd already been thinking. Then he went on to tell me about how he'd lost trust with government long ago. I hope eventually he might dig around for himself. I planted the seed.


I'm quoting myself here, as an addendum afterthought.

The senior male family member at that party was an uncle who was also a pilot, and WWII vet (tail gunner). I'm going to his birthday party in a few weeks and I want to corner him on the subject of 9/11, to see exactly what he thinks. Born into poverty, he retired with double digit millions made on the back of American corporatism. His view of this situation will be interesting for me.
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painter
post Sep 1 2009, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (JimMac @ Sep 1 2009, 06:51 PM) *
I'm quoting myself here, as an addendum afterthought.

The senior male family member at that party was an uncle who was also a pilot, and WWII vet (tail gunner). I'm going to his birthday party in a few weeks and I want to corner him on the subject of 9/11, to see exactly what he thinks. Born into poverty, he retired with double digit millions made on the back of American corporatism. His view of this situation will be interesting for me.

Definitely. Go for it. See what he thinks.

I agree with what you said earlier, JM, the people who are here have gotten here as a result of a lot of work trying to sort through the BS. Most people just don't have the time or inclination. They base their "beliefs" (that is what they are) not on verified evidence or research but on trusting an "authority" to tell them what to think. Thus it has largely always been so.

THAT SAID, there ARE a lot of people out there (we're not quite as much of a "fringe group" as the media WANT us to think we are, get it?) such as the uncle you mentioned who HAS questions, doubts, suspicions. All they need is a little information and guidance -- if they are interested they'll dig into it. I just met a young architectural engineer last weekend who is now reviewing the DVDs I've given him and when he comes to me with questions, I'll have answers or at least suggestions where he can look further into what we know. This is how it works, I think.
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Daniels
post Sep 2 2009, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE (aerohead @ Sep 2 2009, 09:35 AM) *
National Geographic had a special last night (mon. aug 31).
I didnt watch it but i did go the their forums and read the
replies. Seemed like 90% of the people replying were
raising the BS flag and some were ripping on the owner
Rupert Murdoch who also owns Fox News Channel and is
at the head of the worlds largest media empire.

Nat Geo Forum on their 9/11 BS

Its gonna be on again Saturday at 9 Pm. I think im gonna
watch it, just so i know how hard to laugh at the sheep
who believe it.

The Truth movement is growing by the hour........


Australian TV showed the BBC hit piece about 7/7 on Monday just gone.

It was meant to be a hit piece against truthers but seemed to be written by a covert truther. It seemed to very much push the question as to what really did happen on 7/7.

My take is that there are sheep in wolves clothing in the perps camp.

Besides, the fact that they™ had to commission a rebuttal to the truthers indicates that the tide they are trying to hold back is indeed coming in.
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pan
post May 1 2010, 05:25 AM
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Thank you Mr. John Lear for been on this site and for giving us factual informations of what you did in your video. There are very few people in this world that are miss informing the public about you such as an Organiser named Hereward Fenton, he wrote and I quote: Please don't post info about John Lear here. He is an enemy of truth. Contact John Bursill for more info, or just google his name! this is the thread:
http://www.meetup.com/wearechange-oz/messa.../thread/8008709

Who is this John Bursill? There is no doubt in me that Hereward Fenton is a stooge because if he knew the facts he would not had made that dodgy statement which to me is nothing less than a defamation of character against Mr. John Lear.

I have since contacted a number of people concerning this attack on the good name of Mr. John Lear, including Edward Mock from
WeAreChangeUtah, including meetup and I want for meetup to either have Hereward Fenton remove that message or have his site in private mode.

I thank Mr. Rob Balsamo for setting the record straight and John I thank you for answering my letters and to me you are a true friend of the people.

Many Blessings,

Pan.

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SanderO
post May 1 2010, 10:29 AM
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The issue of trusting people when they take any outlier (to the mainstream) position raises many troubling issues.

In the matter of 911 we have been told the official account of the events and have since embarked on a very costly (blood and treasure) and some say anti democratic series of policy initiatives. 911 was a real game changer. This is not in dispute.

We can also make the statement that many have a vested interest in the official account and the subsequent policy initiatives referred to above.

Therefore when individuals or groups surface and question aspects of or in fact the entire account, those vested interests will don one of two things, ignore the critics or attempt to discredit them. But the same reactions would happen when critics of evolution surface with their belief in creationism. Ignore them or refute and discredit them.

So it important to bring this back to science and facts.

The critics of the official 911 account have based their critique on their reading of the evidence available and the claim that much of the evidence has been with held from the public, with the strong implication that the with holding of evidence indicates that evidence would tell a very different story. This is sound logic, but it is not a proof that the with held evidence actually contradicts the official story. So we want to see the video of the pentagon to confirm what may have flown there and so forth. The government could release them and this may prove what happened. They have not. So we simply can't reach any conclusion as tempting as it is to say that the video evidence will contradict the official story.

So the truth movement has had to resort to whatever forensic tools are available and try to extract the truth. What the truth movement HAS done is raise all sorts of questions and show conflicts and contradictions and gaps in the official story. The sum total of these points again raises doubt of the veracity of the official account.

Armed with this mountain of doubt most in the truth movement will build their own "truth narrative" which purports to be science and fact based and fit the available evidence. This leads to hypotheses such as the north path flyover or the controlled demolition of WTC and a whole series of speculations about who planned it, was behind it, carried it out and covered it up.

The speculations are meant to have internal consistency and people who hold a belief in a hypothesis cling to it tenaciously because if elements of their speculation are shown to untrue, or unlikely their internally consistent narrative begins to unfold. And more than that, it appears that clinging to a hypothesis which becomes inflexible in accommodating new evidence appears as if these are belief systems and not scientifically created hypotheses.

So people who raise issues about one thesis or another are now looked at as agents from the government sent to discredit. remember you either ignore or discredit and both sides have only these two options. Of course there is the third option to continually modify the hypothesis to fit all the facts and science as they become available.

This brings me to the notion of what evidence is. We want to believe that evidence is a fingerprint... a unique tell tale of specific cause. While this may be true, it is not always true and evidence can be the result of many causes. If we see a building in pieces on the ground did it collapse, or was it made to fall somehow, or was it poorly designed, or demolished with a wrecking ball or a bomb or it collapse from termites. To make a determination we need to carefully examine the fallen building to look for clues. If we see signs of termites we might conclude that it was from termites eating away and undermining the structure. But that may have been the cause. Some one may have done some work in there and weakened the structure and a strong wind tipped it passed its limit and it collapsed. The point here is that reading the evidence back to a unique cause is difficult, especially when a complex system of hundreds of thousands of elements fails so completely.

Did the towers collapse or were they destroyed by "controlled demolition" which is meant to mean explosives and or something like extreme heat generating process which could destroy the strength of the steel structures.

Personally I believe it was both... the collapse and there was intervention. But the point here is that if you doubt the official story then you believe their was intervention and then you look at the evidence and interpret it to match your hypothesis. If debris is found several hundred feet from the tower it is read as evidence that it was explosively ejected. But it could also get their if it toppled over. The top of a flag pole would end up a distance equal to its height from the bottom if the pole toppled over. And the top would reach a maximum horizontal speed depending on its height. The top of a 100 meter tall pole would reach a horizontal velocity of 22 m/sec and a the top of a 10m pole would reach a horizontal velocity of 7 m/sec. That makes sense if you understand vectors. So when we see debris scattered around the twin towers we can determine what was the maximum horizontal speed they were traveling at to get where they landed. And to do that we need to know how far from the tower they were found and the height in the tower from whence they originated.

If we assume that the furthest found pieces came from the highest locations in the building we would use the elevation of collapse initiation since nothing shot off the top part as it was descending until what appears as an explosion at collapse initiation. This would put the max height for the south tower at +/- 1000' and the north tower at +/- 1150. If we then input the furthest debris located from each tower we find that the maximum horizontal speed was material from the west facade of the north tower and it was around 34 mph. If the debris came from lower such as 1000 feet it would have been as much as 37 mph.
If the entire side fell over like a flag pole the top would reach a speed of 90 mph and land 1350 away, from 1000 ft it would be 85 mph. We know the side did not topple. But it is more likely that sections of the facade fell off and continued moving west at about 30+ mph and landed where they were found. They were likely not ejected at high speeds.

But this would undermine a claim that there was explosive demolition. However this does not mean that there were not explosions or other engineering measures such as high heat to dismantle parts of the structure and cause it to collapse. If the falling of the facade is the correct explanation of that bit of evidence, those who claim explosives have to retreat from one of their "evidence claims" which support their main conclusion.

But how was their conclusion actually arrived at? For one it was based on assuming that the official narrative was a lie. And this depends on how far you want to walk back the "lie" ... the official narrative.

The building did not collapse - therefore they were blown up.
Therefore the planes had nothing to do with their destruction (because they had to be blown up)
And if they had nothing to do with the destruction of the towers then they were "decoys"
If they were decoys then perhaps they were not hijacked and other planes were used or
the hijackers were patsies and duped into flying the decoys
And so on and so on

Now you can look at any aspect of the narrative and find gaping holes in it such as the air speeds reported which seem to defy what those commercial planes could do, or the skill of the hijackers to fly those maneuvers, or the north flyover witnesses which seem to support the no plane hit the pentagon.

Nothing is adding up, but the evidence OF what happened is not there... yet. And this is causing speculation and entrenchment in one truth narrative or another and distrust of others whose own narrative does not support yours - they are labeled disinformation agents sent to... discredit.

Let's try to establish facts and not theories - the theories come later. We're still at the fact finding stage with no help from the government and the corporate world who are making out very nicely as long as the OCT stands.
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rob balsamo
post May 1 2010, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (pan @ May 1 2010, 05:25 AM) *
Who is this John Bursill?


http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=19288
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amazed!
post May 1 2010, 02:20 PM
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Trapster

Call me a maudlin fool, but I would still like to think that there are more good men in society than bad men. More good than wicked, knowing full well that all men are wicked at one time or another.

Yes, there are patriots, no doubt. Some who put country above government, and not vice versa.

What if John Lear IS an old Air America pilot? What does that really mean? Does it mean that he cannot love his country, even though he works for its government?

Air America used to land several airplanes daily at the little Navy Base on the Mekong River, where I was in Vietnam. I know 2 guys who worked for them.

That Lear would advocate for truth being made public, I'm all for him.
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Quest
post May 1 2010, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (amazed! @ May 1 2010, 06:20 PM) *
Trapster

Call me a maudlin fool, but I would still like to think that there are more good men in society than bad men. More good than wicked, knowing full well that all men are wicked at one time or another.

Yes, there are patriots, no doubt. Some who put country above government, and not vice versa.

What if John Lear IS an old Air America pilot? What does that really mean? Does it mean that he cannot love his country, even though he works for its government?

Air America used to land several airplanes daily at the little Navy Base on the Mekong River, where I was in Vietnam. I know 2 guys who worked for them.

That Lear would advocate for truth being made public, I'm all for him.



But Lear never answered my posts regarding UFOs and in fact he has been absent from PFT since I asked for detailed answers on the question. I am always wary of people that mix NPHT (No Plane Hit Theory) with fringe stuff like DEWs (directed energy weapons) bringing down the WTC towers or UFOs. IMO, these fringe theories are intentionally mixed in with truth in order to discredit individuals, groups and websites, and until Leary offers detailed explanation on his views of UFOs, I say it's wise to hold him at arm's length.
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amazed!
post May 2 2010, 04:28 PM
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No objection from me Quest, in that regard. You might be right.

I was merely playing the optimist, an unusual role for myself.

And I have read a paper by Lear many months ago, but have not yet seen the video above, though I will. Been busy lately.

Let's face it, the CIA has been in the dope business for decades, so they play by different rules so to speak.

Holding at an arms' length is always the best policy.

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rob balsamo
post May 2 2010, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Quest @ May 1 2010, 03:46 PM) *
But Lear never answered my posts regarding UFOs and in fact he has been absent from PFT since I asked for detailed answers on the question.


Have you tried to email him?


QUOTE
and until Leary offers detailed explanation on his views of UFOs, I say it's wise to hold him at arm's length.


"Leary"?

Quest, you should know better.

Please don't do it again.
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nitatutt
post May 2 2010, 10:58 PM
Post #60





Group: Private Forum Pilot
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Joined: 5-December 07
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Just my opinion (I know it means little)

I find Mr. Lear lively and intriguing.

While I don't believe most of the "far out" stuff - my gut instinct is that Mr. Lear is sincere and believes what he says.
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