Questions About Flight Door, How Do I Debunk a Debunker!
Nov 30 2009, 03:08 PM
Group: Student Forum Pilot
Joined: 29-November 09
From: A Wormhole outside of Chicago
Member No.: 4,724
Hi I just joined, as you can see. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) I got hooked on your forum in the middle of the night, while reading about the FDR and Flight 77 Flight Deck Doors not being open. I understand the part about this FDR not being for the actual flight. I got a few knit-picker debunkers, that have me going around in circles about stuff. I asked them to read your whole thread first, before commenting. This one has me stumped. You know more about it than I do, can anyone here explain it to me, so that I can give the poster a snappy comeback? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/handsdown.gif)
Yes, the FLT DECK DOOR value was CLOSED for the entire flight. You got me. Oh wait, the same parameter is the same for ALL recorded 12 flights. The pilots never got anything to eat or left the flight deck to go to the bathroom, not even on the long LA - DC flights. As a matter of fact, the door is NEVER recorded OPEN for any point ever when the FDR is recording. Very strange. The pilots must have worn those astronaut diapers.
Thoughts and advice: There are 42 HOURS of flight data in Warren RO. It is wise to check your observations for the last minutes or flight against the other 41 hours of recorded data. I don't know why the value is CLOSED for the entire 42 hours (that is one for the pilot folks to hash out), but if the parameter never changes and reason dictates that it should at some point, then I can conclude one of two things. The parameter was not being recorded and a default value was being stored, or the parameter being recorded is not what some think it is.
and after my reply, I got this:
The Flight Deck door parameter is also listed as "Not Working or Unconfirmed" on page 13 of the FDR report:
I'll see if I can track down the file 911files was working from.
The poster pulled it from another site, and only posted a thread link, instead of where this information really came from. I questioned their motive. I am a truth seeker. NOT A DEBUNKER or a TROLL. I just have to deal with them.
Lots of the other members, found this forum very interesting, and thanked me.
If you want to check out the thread, so that I can prove my honest intentions, read it here.
We're all on the same side.
Nov 30 2009, 03:37 PM
Joined: 13-August 06
Member No.: 1
Welcome to the forum.
Thank you for asking these questions in a new thread as now others (and me (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) will have a link to send to those who ask.
Your above questions were already covered, but I will consolidate them here along with many other common arguments against our work.
Claim - How can anyone trust data from some anonymous guy in Australia?
A. We agree, but he is not really anonymous. He does give his name, but we werent able to ask him if he wanted his name used in the article. That is why we cross checked it with our own data we received from the NTSB. You can also get your own directly from the NTSB as we did. Visit ntsb.gov and fill out their FOIA request form online.
Claim - Does the cockpit door show open for the pilots to get in?
A. No, it shows closed for entire flight. The FDR starts recording when the engines are started. Clearly the pilots would be in their seats and cabin/flight deck secure during this phase of flight.
Claim - Does the FDR record if the door is open or closed?
A. Clearly it does. It says closed for the entire flight and was confirmed by the Data Frame Layout provided by the NTSB and a pilot who has flight time in this exact 757 at American Airlines.
Claim - The sensor must have failed.
A. Speculation, but if the sensor failed, it would "ding" the FDR that a sensor has failed during self-diagnosis. If the FDR is inoperative, the airplane is not allowed to take-off. The sensor was operative. People who make this claim, would also have to prove the sensor fails in the closed position.
Claim - The hijackers kicked in the door and jammed the sensor in the closed position.
A. Again, pure speculation based on incredulity. But the fact remains, the data shows the door as closed, the altitude too high to hit the Pentagon, Vertical speed too great for level off as seen in DoD 5 frames video, the list goes on. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment on such blatant conflict with the govt story.
Claim - The bird strike which took out the Flight Data Recorder prior to impact also took out the door sensor 30 mins prior to impact
A. Not really a claim made by "duhbunkers" at this point in time, but give it a few days. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Another claim that could be made is that the NTSB lists this parameter as "not working or unconfirmed". They also list Radar Altitude the same - "not working or unconfirmed". Those who make excuse for the govt story cherry pick the newly decoded Radar Data for their impact theories but disregard confirmed Pressure altitude data which shows too high to hit the Pentagon. It is quite possible the NTSB listed "FLT DECK DOOR" as "unconfirmed" due to the fact they believe the door would and should have been opened during flight for the hijack to take place. Again, this goes back to the jumpseat issue and why the FAA ceased all offline commuters access to the jumpseat post-911.[Until verified and then CASS system]
Unfortunately, [we] have no way to verify the other 11 flights in [the] data. However, the last flight does verify with our data.
I spoke with Ralph Kolstad (American 757 Capt) and Rusty (United 757 Capt), they verified and confirmed my article before i published it.
Also, it is not unusual to keep the cockpit door closed during flight. I have gone on many 4-5 hour flights never leaving the cockpit. I've even done many trips single and twin engine prop from NY to Florida, Memphis... etc, 8-10 hours of flying, with one pee break at midway point when stopping for gas. I know many pilots who go hours without leaving their seat.
Many pilots dont like to leave the flight deck. Its called "The Walk Of Shame" for a reason...lol
Also keep in mind, some of the previous flight locations if i recall were LA-ORD-MIA-IAD, These are relatively short legs. 2-3 hours. Hit the bathroom before boarding, bring your lunch (which most pilots do to save some cash and eat more healthy than airline food), and you never need to leave your seat. There is also plenty of room to stretch on a 757 Flight Deck.
You are correct about the short flights. The longest section of FDR data for all flights (engines on to engines off) is only 4 hours and 34 minutes. If the pilots never left the flight deck during the previous 11 flights, then it would appear to me that either:
(1) The flight deck door was never opened while the engines were running.
(2) The flight deck door open/closed state was not sensed and recorded correctly. e.g. The door sensor reports closed when the door is actually open.
(3) The flight deck door was opened, but for less than 4 seconds each time.
I am open to suggestions.
I have only just started reading through the thread you included a link to.
If your data is correct for the previous 11 flights....
1 is certainly possible as discussed...
I can see 3 apply to the previous 11 flights as a pilot could have walked through the door in less than 4 seconds and the FDR missed the poll?
But for the "Hijackers" to storm the cockpit and then remove the pilots in less than 4 seconds, twice? Highly unlikely.
Number 2 i dont see as possible as the sensor is routed through the EICAS which is a crew alert system on the same display unit (tv screen for the layman) as the engine gauges. If the door sensor failed, the pilots would have known about it. I think its also a "no-go" item, which means the plane would be grounded until the switch was fixed by maintenance. Which is probably a quick fix and not much of a delay. Probably can be done with passengers on board.
Also, Capt Kolstad confirmed the door sensors were installed prior to 9/11. Therefore, the FDR was polling the door sensor on American Airlines 757's, hence the reason it is listed in the data and showing a door state.
Rusty (United Capt) wasnt sure if there was a cockpit door sensor on his aircraft. Which corresponds with the fact that UA93 data doesnt show a parameter for FLT DECK DOOR. But he did say they had a switch to open the door. But was located in a different area of the cockpit than on American 757's.
Hope this helps.
|Lo-Fi Version||Time is now: 22nd May 2013 - 04:34 PM|