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Wtc Core Design, How were they built

SanderO
post Mar 11 2010, 04:31 PM
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So they found iron micro spheres in 4 dust samples. That means high heat events and explosive disbursement.

Did all 4 samples have the same ratio of iron micro spheres to the total mass of the sample?

If so do we assume all dust was uniform and can compute the amount of iron that was disbursed... ir was inside the structures when the were destroyed?

If so, how would the dust be so uniform?

If it wasn't uniform how can we conclude how much iron was in the structures or explosives in the case of the red gray chips?

It appears that in all three towers the high energy high heat events were localized ... somewhat. That is... most of the structures were destroyed by gravitational collapse... after parts of the supporting structures were removed. That would seem to indicate that the dust would have different characteristics depending on what it was created from...

What does the dust tell us?

Why didn't the paper burn?

Any thoughts?
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elreb
post Mar 11 2010, 11:06 PM
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“Beautiful works of art are made to last”

Thus said, I must wonder about words like localized “High Energy”…”High Heat” and events of “Gravitational” collapse.

On my personal trip thru life to becoming a “Master Plumber” I had two years in Mechanical Engineering at the University of Missouri (Kansas City).

In 35 years I have only once witnessed where water became so hot that it turned to a class “D” type chemical fire.

My father was a Major (GS-14) “Certified Safety Engineer” working for the federal government and it was his job to investigate structural failures on government buildings.

He taught me that if the story does not add up…you do not have all the information.

Any person, regardless of their education who supports the “Official” report is either “Stupid” or on their payroll.

Very bad people made this happen.
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DoYouEverWonder
post Mar 11 2010, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (elreb @ Mar 11 2010, 10:06 PM) *
“Beautiful works of art are made to last”

Thus said, I must wonder about words like localized “High Energy”…”High Heat” and events of “Gravitational” collapse.

On my personal trip thru life to becoming a “Master Plumber” I had two years in Mechanical Engineering at the University of Missouri (Kansas City).

In 35 years I have only once witnessed where water became so hot that it turned to a class “D” type chemical fire.

My father was a Major (GS-14) “Certified Safety Engineer” working for the federal government and it was his job to investigate structural failures on government buildings.

He taught me that if the story does not add up…you do not have all the information.

Any person, regardless of their education who supports the “Official” report is either “Stupid” or on their payroll.

Very bad people made this happen.
Just a technical note - The Twin Towers did have steam heat and hot water, which ConEd provides for most of Manhattan. I've seen old radiators blow their regulators in my old apartment and it's a pretty scary thing. It's like have Old Faithful go off in your living room.

This post has been edited by DoYouEverWonder: Mar 11 2010, 11:37 PM
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Christophera
post Mar 16 2010, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Mar 9 2010, 07:31 PM) *
So they found iron micro spheres in 4 dust samples. That means high heat events and explosive disbursement.

Did all 4 samples have the same ratio of iron micro spheres to the total mass of the sample?
Why didn't the paper burn?

Any thoughts?


I was intrigued to learn that the samples had the highest concentrations of metals ever found on the planet. I was particularly interested in the high amounts of iron and chromium. The reason for my interest was my knowledge of the concrete rectangular core structure and the rebar which was very special and strong having high amounts of chromium. High tensile steel.

This photo shows the only full length box columns of the towers. The north side inner framed wall of the exterior steel structure that was fastened to the concrete core walls. The sloping/curved top edge of the concrete can be seen behind the interior box columns, silhouetting the columns.



Then this image of WTC 2 at a very different phase of particulate emission. I suspect that the very dark particulate clouds over the south wall, the narrow end of the WTC 2 core are the steel from cutting charges detonating at 300 ms intervals, which equals free fall in 40 foot pieces.



Conforming to that hypothesis, are faint vertical striations in the dark particulate as if the particulate were being ejected at high speed from separate tubular ducts. The south interior box columns, outside the concrete core with their wide axis perpindicular to the cores long axis.

Perhaps filing cabinets were shredded by shrapnel comprised of hard stone aggregate and in the process some large bundles of paper made it mostly intact to the window exits.

BTW I have a copy of an extensive dust analysis that was around some years ago if anyone is interested. Here is a list of authors/sources of it.

1Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA;
2Department of Environmental and Community Medicine, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA;
3MVA, Norcross, Georgia;
4Department of Environmental Sciences, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA;
5National Exposure Research Laboratory, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, USA;
6Nelson Institute of Environmental Medicine, NYU School of Medicine, New York, New York, USA;
7Department of Environmental Sciences, Virginia Institute of Marine Science, College of William and Mary, Gloucester, Virginia, USA

* Introduction
* Methods
* Results
* Discussion
* Conclusions
Abstract


This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 16 2010, 02:53 PM
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elreb
post Mar 16 2010, 08:10 PM
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DoYouEverWonder,

Do you realize that you have made a great point?

“The Twin Towers did have steam heat and hot water”

Water boils at 212 degree & has a critical point of around 705.2 degrees Fahrenheit

Aluminum has a critical point of 13,670 degrees Fahrenheit

Iron has a critical point of 14,840 degrees Fahrenheit

My BBQ grill can get as hot as 500 degrees Fahrenheit without melting or vaporizing.

Can steam cause wood or paper to burn?
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woodbourne
post Mar 18 2010, 01:51 PM
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Niels Harrit was quoted as saying that "likely tens of tons of "nano thermite was in the buildings based on the samples which were consistent in content despite being taken at different times and locations in lower manhattan accouding to stephen jones.
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woodbourne
post Mar 18 2010, 01:55 PM
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The core columns were not reinforced with concrete at the WTC towers. The Pentagon is a different matter. All the columns at the WTC towers were steel - box columns in the core - with insulation put on them.
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elreb
post Mar 19 2010, 08:41 PM
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The tallest concrete core building I have worked on was 32 stories. Depending where you live, concrete is used due to connections with the local concrete company and Union agreements.

Buildings that are 12 stories or less sometimes use flying “French Forms” with propane enhanced heating tents to speed drying times. This type of construction cannot be hidden.

I’m not saying that “white envelopes” didn’t float around in NYC but the building code is pretty strict there.

The towers had asbestos issues and aluminum to steel (bolt/rivet) problems.

EPA would not allow WTC destruction and now we have 10,000 firemen, police and rescue workers with lung problems.

Guess who get the bill? Not Dick Cheney. thumbdown.gif
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Obwon
post Apr 19 2011, 08:20 PM
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Regarding helicopter photos referred to as pictures of core columns at upper phases:
What you see in the photos of tower construction within the official story are the kangaroo cranes used to move material, the interior forms, and elevator guide rails, or to position the rebar hanging into the concrete pour. The steel framework was built up to 7 floors over the top of the concrete core being constructed inside of the steel frame obscuring the core construction from view. Other photos when the construction is lower show elevator guide rails. These are being mis identified as "core columns" on some web sites.
Photos and the tower construction.
Before another core tier could be formed, the elevator guide rails had to be lowered and set in place to a level 2 floors lower than the top of the present concrete pour. They are what is shown in the diagram at the top of this page, the FEMA core. The guide rails are presented as multiple, narrow rectangular tubes that supposedly ran full length for the tower.



Photos at ground zero.
There is a photo showing the bottom basement foundation level where various columns, cut off, protrude from the concrete bottom. There is a workman near center in the photo wearing brown coveralls, firefighters are in the foreground. These columns are often referred to as "core columns". The columns that rise up from inside the concrete channels forming the interior base of the concrete core are mostly elevator guide rails. To the right of the workman in the background is an interior box column that has a fresh torch cut, at an angle, with slag hanging from the cut. Its dimensions, proportions and thickness are different. The photo is looking north through the line of the north perimeter wall of WTC 1 from just west or perhaps still inside the tower core footprint.

WTC 2 CONCRETE CORE STANDING



What follows are the statements of various architects and engineers regarding the concrete core.
Leslie Robertson, Architect Of The World Trade Center Towers
Still, Robertson, whose firm is responsible for three of the six tallest buildings in the world, feels a sense of pride that the massive towers, supported by a steel-tube exoskeleton and a reinforced concrete core, held up as well as they did—managing to stand for over an hour despite direct hits from two massive commercial jetliners.
Says engineer Robertson, “If they had fallen down immediately, the death counts would have been unimaginable,” he says. “The World Trade Center has performed admirably, and everyone involved in the project should be proud.” The buildings were designed specifically to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, the largest plane flying in 1966, the year they broke ground on the project.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069641/

A Description of the World Trade Center
The twin towers of the World Trade Center were essentially two tubes, with the north tower (1,368 feet) six feet taller than the south tower (1,362 feet), and each were 110 stories tall. Each tube contained a concrete core, which supported only the load of the central bank of elevators and stairwells (Snoonian and Czarnecki 23).
http://www.unc.edu/courses/2001fall/plan/0...01/engineering/

NOTE: This page has some confusion about the construction sequence of steel and concrete.

Each of the towers, in other words, was held up by its reinforced concrete core and the world's strongest curtain walls. Without the usual steel skeleton, the open floors allowed unprecedented space and flexibility. Between them, the two 1,350-foot-high towers provided 7.9 million square feet of rentable floor space, roughly the equivalent of fifty city blocks.
http://salwen.com/wtc
This Page Has A Concise, Accurate Structural Description
http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/2001...on_WTC_Collapse

At the heart of the structure was a vertical steel and concrete core, housing lift shafts and stairwells. Steel beams radiate outwards and connect with steel
uprights, forming the building's outer wall.
August Domel, Jr., Ph.D., S.E., P.E. November 2001
Groundbreaking for construction of the World Trade Center took place on August 5, 1966.Tower One, standing 1368 feet high, was completed in 1970, and Tower Two, at 1362 feet high, was completed in 1972. The structural design for the World Trade Center Towers was done by Skilling, Helle, Christiansen and Robertson. It was designed as a tube building that included a perimeter moment-resisting frame consisting of steel columns spaced on 39-inch centers. The load carrying system was designed so that the steel facade would resist lateral and gravity forces and the interior concrete core would carry only gravity loads.
Dr. Domel received a Ph.D. from the University of Illinois at Chicago in 1988 and a Law Degree from Loyola University in 1992. He is a licensed Structural Engineer and Attorney at Law in the .State of Illinois and a Professional Engineer in twelve states, including the State of New York. Dr. Domel is authorized by the Department of Labor (OSHA) as a 10 and 30 hour construction safety trainer.
http://www.ncsea.com/downloads/wtcseerp.pdf

NOTE: The link for the following does not respond. 2/06/06

Building Design

The World Trade Center towers were an unusual design, at least at the time they were built. Their support structure is called a 'bundled tube', or in engineering terms, a glass curtain wall structure. What this means is that the buildings are tubes, made rigid by a lattice of steel beams on the outside walls. These vertical columns are strengthened by horizontal beams, and this design is what helps support the building, and keep it stable in high winds. An inner concrete core houses the elevators, and provides additional vertical load support
http://www.ncusd203.org/central/html/what/...tc/graphic.html


The usenet has been searched and messages by people found that describe the concrete core who saw it being constructed or knew for other reasons, the true tower core design.

http://cosmicpenguin.com/911/chrisbrown/corerefs/index.html

Original URL...
http://concretecore.741.com

Enjoy

Obwon
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SanderO
post Apr 19 2011, 08:32 PM
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The cores of the twin towers were not made of concrete... there were concrete floors of course and there are specs and correspondence about this. The only concrete walls were perhaps in the sub basements. All the above grade structure of the twin towers was steel.

Those cartoons are rubbish.
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Obwon
post Apr 19 2011, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 19 2011, 07:32 PM) *
The cores of the twin towers were not made of concrete... there were concrete floors of course and there are specs and correspondence about this. The only concrete walls were perhaps in the sub basements. All the above grade structure of the twin towers was steel.

Those cartoons are rubbish.


You know, I've been in the WTC several times, and I remember that
they had this elevator scheme that I found annoying. They had
banks of elevators that only served even floors and another bank
that only served odd floors.

What was even more annoying about it was, if you were on an even
floor, you had to either go up to the sky lobby, or down to the main
lobby, to get an elevator to go back up, or down, to an odd floor.

So if you were on floor 17 and wanted to go to floor 18, you had
a long trip and two elevators to wait for. Many people who were
"sometimes" visitors to the towers, didn't realize the reason for this.
Which the arrangement of the corridor schemes explains.

People who worked in the towers will confirm it.

Enjoy

Obwon thumbsup.gif
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SanderO
post Apr 19 2011, 09:24 PM
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No it doesn't... the only possibility for even and odd floors is with cars that open two floors at the same time. But this was not the case. You're memory is playing tricks with you. I'd like to hear from several workers who can support this claim.

The geometry you describe makes no sense. Look at the floor plans.
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Obwon
post Apr 20 2011, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 19 2011, 08:24 PM) *
No it doesn't... the only possibility for even and odd floors is with cars that open two floors at the same time. But this was not the case. You're memory is playing tricks with you. I'd like to hear from several workers who can support this claim.

The geometry you describe makes no sense. Look at the floor plans.


Calm down, I haven't been in the towers for well over 12 years or so. I used
to stop on the lower concourse, but just to catch the PATH to Journal Square/Newark.
But, the few times I had occasion to visit the upper floors, (btw, I never went up
to Windows on the World or the Observation deck), I found it vexing that I had to
go through the sky lobby, or down the main concourse, to switch from an odd to
even floor elevator. Nor did the elevators go all the way to the top from the ground floor.
If memory serves, you had to switch at the sky lobby, to get another elevator to the top.

Hey, if my mind is playing tricks on me, this wouldn't be the first time, so I'm very
aware that I could very well be wrong about this, maybe confusing WTC with some other
tall building I happened to have visited, but I would tend to doubt it. I seem to remember
how the elevator situation, made me feel very adverse to doing any kind of business in
the towers. A stop in an 80 something floor bar/restaurant, with a stool at the bar
near the window, gave me such vertigo, I don't really remember feeling good about the
towers, except for their skyline profile and the main concourse, I, for one was otherwise
unimpressed.

If you look at the diagram of how the core was arranged, the odd even elevator
plan makes sense, that I wasn't aware of then. I just thought that this was some kind
of logistical/traffic moving scheme, and it was annoying. Because, at certain times of
day, like lunch hour, the elevators would become so crowded that you might have to
let some go by, making for even longer waits. Although the elevators moved fast, and
in reality, waits probably weren't as long as they felt. It still was never-the-less annoying
to realize, you'd have to keep switching cars, odd to even, sky lobby etc., to visit the floors.

This was because the hall ways on each alternate floor traveled one way, while on the
other floors the hallways traveled the other way. Since the elevators didn't have front and
side doors, they had to be limited to the floors, where the hallways ran in front of them.
That's what actually resulted in the odd, even elevator arrangement.

Now, let's wait for people who have worked in the towers to sound off.
Hopefully, I haven't been losing my mind! laughing1.gif
Obwon
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Obwon
post Apr 20 2011, 08:51 AM
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Ah, here I found it, so in a sense I was miss remembering things, but I was right about
the annoying way the set up was, for anyone who had to travel multiple floors.

The World Trade Center Elevators:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineeri...ctural/wtc2.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I clearly don't remember each elevator having two sets of doors.
But then, I don't remember ever focusing on the designs, past
being annoyed by how much trouble it would be to go from floor
to floor. But this was because there was no overlap, you only
had one elevator per floor, so if you wanted to go to a floor,
served by the next elevator, you had no choice but to travel to
a lobby to catch it, and which lobby, depended on what set
of floors you were on.

Now, it would not have been a problem for a person with a single
destination. But, when you're some one like me, looking for
trading companies with merchandise to sell, you sort of want to
browse a building when you get there. So, you'd look at the
building directory and find the various trading co's there, note their
locations then try to travel to them. Now, say you've collected
five or six trading co's located on various floors. When you look
at the elevator arrangement, it's like, "hey, forget this!"

I'm not surprised I got it wrong, since I rarely used the towers
past the shopping and food concourse. And I've long since learned
not to become invested in any theory, even my own, until I have
verified evidence that I can rely on, and/or peer review.
I'm sure we've all had our share of getting things wrong at times.

Enjoy
Obwon rolleyes.gif
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BADBURD
post Apr 25 2011, 11:32 AM
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Obwon
I'm with you on the NPT but the core issue being concrete is wrong. I posted these from a 1971 civil engineering magazine on another post. I can't find it so I will post them here. You might want to save them and blow them up if you can't read them. But it clearly states how they were built.








This is from an original book that I own. I didn't get these from the internet. These are scanned from the book that I still have. I bought this book to find out if there was any truth to the concrete core. I have seen all this stuff you posted and it looks very possible. I trust this book more than any pics on the internet.
I hope this will put the concrete core to rest!!! cleanup.gif
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Obwon
post Apr 26 2011, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (BADBURD @ Apr 25 2011, 10:32 AM) *
Obwon
I'm with you on the NPT but the core issue being concrete is wrong. I posted these from a 1971 civil engineering magazine on another post. I can't find it so I will post them here. You might want to save them and blow them up if you can't read them. But it clearly states how they were built.

<images snipped>

This is from an original book that I own. I didn't get these from the internet. These are scanned from the book that I still have. I bought this book to find out if there was any truth to the concrete core. I have seen all this stuff you posted and it looks very possible. I trust this book more than any pics on the internet.
I hope this will put the concrete core to rest!!! cleanup.gif


Yeah, I'm finding no corroboration for a concrete core, at least not anything credible enough
to post, save the "demo" I posted to add to the discussion, while I continued to search.
You've posted what I was hoping to find, something from the past, that credibly dispels
false notions. 1971 is a really good place to come from.

I also note that the WTC did not do a good enough job, of letting people know how the
buildings transportation system worked. There should have been notice placards in the lobby,
and aboard each elevator, letting people know that to reach higher zone lobbies, they simply
needed to go to the upper most floor in the zone they were in, and take the escalator from
there, up one floor to the upper zone lobby. I guess they didn't, because of the mouthful,
it would have been. Not that it would have mattered much, since it still represented more
tedium than the average New Yorker, interested in "browsing" would put up with, on a whim.
I'd planned to go through the directory and locate as many trading co's as I could, then
devise a plan to visit them, but I never got around to it. Even though I suspected that
the increased difficulties, might yield better results, there are way too many trading
companies in NYC that are way to easy to reach. So it wasn't like there was any pressure
to find treasures.

There was another building, I can't remember which, in the downtown area that had an
odd, even floor elevator system. It could have been 19 Broadway, oh well. Such is the
state of 911 information, it's nice to get something "locked down", now and again.

Okay then, once more into the breech!

Thanks
Obwon
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rosewhite
post Nov 21 2012, 03:17 PM
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[quote name='SanderO'

You are wrong about this. I worked for the architect at the time in 1970. But it was my first job out of school and I wish I could say I remember the drawings. But I can't. I do believe there was no concrete shell for the core.
[/quote]

the core seemed to be nothing but concrete stair pieces bolted tot he steel columns with drywall panelling all round?
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elreb
post Nov 21 2012, 03:35 PM
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Rosewhite = Welcome,

Please repeat your statement more clearly.

If you wish to have a direct reply…then click reply.

If you have a new statement…then click add reply…
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