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Rotational Versus Linear Damage To Pentagon?, Flight 77

CuriousGeorge2
post Aug 21 2010, 12:36 AM
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Hi,

Can some of you guys out there help me with some insight into this question? Assuming AA flight 77 was indeed the aircraft approaching the Pentagon, and assuming it was indeed low enough, and approaching an angle of I believe approx. 42 degreess, and assuming the tip of the right wing did in fact touch the Pentagon before the nose did, would the physics of this impact cause the entire aircraft to begin rotating clockwise, and thus result in a curved damage path into the interior of the Pentagon? As opposed to the straight-line damage path which was observed that day? Someone mentioned this, and I feel like I remember something about it but can't place it - did you guys cover this in one of your documentaries on the Pentagon?

Thanks for any info on this question!
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rob balsamo
post Aug 21 2010, 02:23 AM
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Hi CuriousGeorge2, welcome to the forum!

You raise an excellent point.

You are absolutely correct.

There should have been some type of clockwise rotation about the vertical axis due to impact angle, yet the "impact damage" does not show any signs of such.

Great observation!

No, we haven't covered it in any of our documentaries as they are technical enough, but I have covered it somewhere on this forum.


Once again, Welcome! Always nice to see another with real critical thinking skills.
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CuriousGeorge2
post Aug 21 2010, 02:58 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Aug 21 2010, 02:23 AM) *
Hi CuriousGeorge2, welcome to the forum!

You raise an excellent point.

You are absolutely correct.

There should have been some type of clockwise rotation about the vertical axis due to impact angle, yet the "impact damage" does not show any signs of such.

Great observation!

No, we haven't covered it in any of our documentaries as they are technical enough, but I have covered it somewhere on this forum.


Once again, Welcome! Always nice to see another with real critical thinking skills.


Thank you, Mr. Balsamo, for your thoughtful reply and encouragement.

FYI This was not my own observation, but, the observation of another.

I would like to find a credible source (a researcher, a research paper, a book or documentary film, etc.) which explains and documents this rotational effect so that I can share this information with others. Can you help to point me in the right direction? The name of an author, a book, a film, anything? Perhaps as you said another post in this forum? Thanking you in advance for your reply...
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rob balsamo
post Aug 21 2010, 03:03 AM
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I'm sure youtube has many aircraft crashes which show such a rotational motion at impact.

I've seen it plenty of times when crashing my RC aircraft. tongue.gif

Just google "Airplane Cartwheel". I'm sure you'll find plenty of sources.
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SanderO
post Sep 9 2011, 07:55 AM
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The path would not be curved if one part of the object struck something before another part did. It would deflect the direction from the original straight path to a different straight path. Use your vector analysis.

One also needs to consider whether the part of the object would simply break off and was not capable of introducing a moment into the structure it was attached to. For example.. Let's imagine your are driving a truck with a pole strapped across the bed. The pole is 20' long and made from thin wood with segments glued together... as the truck races down the highway the pole which sticks out the side hits a massive sign stanchion... What happens? It probably snaps off at one of the glued segments and the driver feels nothing at all, the path of the truck is unaffected.

Second run has a massive steel beam of the same length secured to the truck bed moving at the same speed. When the steel beam encounters the stanchion it will either destroy it... if there is enough kinetic energy to do so and the sign will come toppling down. The collision will slow the truck as the collision has absorbed some of the kinetic energy of motion of the truck. It may also cause the truck to skid over in the direction of the stanchion and go off the road.

If the steel beam was so rigidly connected to the truck, but the stanchion was not destroyed, and the beam became *pinned* to the stanchion, the truck would rotate around the stanchion as long as the driver had his foot on the gas peddle. This is unlikely to happen.

Could a plane rotate around a pinned tip of a wing? NO

Could you lift a 757 up from lifting rings at the wing tips? NO

Could you list a 757 up from lifting rings place at the wing roots? YES

Structure and force vectors. Here ya go:

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/vectors/

This post has been edited by SanderO: Sep 9 2011, 07:58 AM
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Aldo Marquis CIT
post Sep 9 2011, 01:10 PM
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Great example, same as the alleged impact at the Pentagon. Left wing down, right wing up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khzz6N6GyVg&sns=em

You can see the plane rotates during left wing/engine impact.

The penta plane is alleged to have had it's left engine impact the vent structure in the ground and it would have had to dig into the ground/foundation which we obviously saw had no damage. So yes we should have seen a rotational impact.



Unfortunately for the dumb assholes who planned this out, they added too many details without thinking it through.



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rob balsamo
post Sep 9 2011, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Sep 9 2011, 07:55 AM) *
Could a plane rotate around a pinned tip of a wing? NO


Wrong.


(just a quick search i did, you can find more i'm sure... )



Good video Aldo, exactly what i was trying to express. Here it is embedded. You can easily notice the rotational movement upon impact to the point where the aircraft is skidding sideways across the terrain.




Something similar should have occurred at the Pentagon if an aircraft really impacted the Pentagon. If not counter-clockwise rotation, but clockwise from the right engine allegedly striking the Generator.
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maturin42
post Sep 9 2011, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Sep 7 2011, 03:50 PM) *
Wrong.

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AgHmTanno0E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
(just a quick search i did, you can find more i'm sure... )



Good video Aldo, exactly what i was trying to express. Here it is embedded. You can easily notice the rotational movement upon impact to the point where the aircraft is skidding sideways across the terrain.


<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Khzz6N6GyVg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Something similar should have occurred at the Pentagon if an aircraft really impacted the Pentagon. If not counter-clockwise rotation, but clockwise from the right engine allegedly striking the Generator.

Seems to me that the plane would have experienced rotational forces causing it to pivot around its center of gravity, but the directional path of the aircraft would not have been instantly changed. Enver Masud has brought this up before as well, speculating that the starboard wing contacting the building would have changed the path of damage, as though the aircraft momentum would have instantly assumed the course aligned with the centerline of the aircraft. In fact, the c/g of the aircraft would have continued in accordance with the newtonian laws in a straight line. It is like stomping the rudder pedal. The aircraft yaws, but doesn't instantly assume a new course. Turning requires coordinated action to overcome the inertia of the mass on its current course.

This post has been edited by maturin42: Sep 9 2011, 03:38 PM
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Aldo Marquis CIT
post Sep 9 2011, 04:19 PM
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Thanx Rob. You are right in relation to the generator.

I still want to see how it can have it's right wing up and the engine hitting the Generator/fence while it's flap track slices the top of the generator(like Russell pickering asserted) while being able to then nearly simultaneously lower it's left wing for the engine to hit the vent structure.
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rob balsamo
post Sep 9 2011, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (maturin42 @ Sep 9 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Seems to me that the plane would have experienced rotational forces causing it to pivot around its center of gravity, but the directional path of the aircraft would not have been instantly changed.



Agreed. This was my first post above.

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Aug 21 2010, 02:23 AM) *
There should have been some type of clockwise rotation about the vertical axis due to impact angle, yet the "impact damage" does not show any signs of such.


All aircraft axis join at the CG.

However, as seen in the Beaver video above, if the impact is great enough to overcome the momentum, the aircraft will certainly change direction. smile.gif

He initially changed direction due to hitting the left float a bit hard (perhaps what one would expect to see if an engine hit a generator), then the axis of rotation on the Beaver changes from somewhere out on the right wing when he clips the right wing tip, then to somewhere out on the left wing when he clips the left wing tip.
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onesliceshort
post Sep 9 2011, 06:14 PM
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This is the best of a bad lot:

http://youtu.be/sKC9C0HCNH8

Same sort of rotational pull on contact with resistance? Left wing down, right wing up.
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