Aircraft Departure Gate Positional Data Conflicts With Government Story, PilotsFor911truth.org Rating Options

[rob balsamo]

Aircraft Departure Gate Positional Data Conflicts With Government Story

Latitude/Longitude Coordinates Reflect Departure Gate Other Than Reported

02/28/11 - (PilotsFor911Truth.org) It has been reported that American Airlines Flight 77 departed Washington Dulles International Airport at approximately 08:20 AM on the morning of September 11, 2001 allegedly from Terminal Concourse D Gate 26 (1). However, the Flight Data Recorder positional data provided by the National Transportation Safety Board tells a very different story.

The below illustration is a diagram of Dulles Concourse D and their respective gates. It shows Gate D26 on the southwest corner of the terminal.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD-ConcourseD.png)

Below is the raw lat/long plot based on the information as seen in the raw Flight Data Recorder file provided by the NTSB. As you can see there is an offset from the runway during departure. This is due to navigational errors associated with the device involved, called an Inertial Navigation System or INS. (Update - There should not be any error if this data came from an American Airlines 757. See more here.)

CLICK IMAGES TO ENLARGE - CLICK BACK TO RETURN

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD.jpg)

Color Coding is recognized as:

Green P9-P0 is night before engine off
Red M1 is at the Terminal
Yellow M2 is backed out and start of Taxi
Red M3 is Radio Alt 3 Feet, 1st indication of lift off

(Update to color coding - It appears the Red M1 is the engine start after pushback, and the yellow M2 is forward movement into a turn for start of taxi. Click here for more details.)
(Update - There should not be any error if this data came from an American Airlines 757. See more here.)

After adjusting a Lat/Long offset based on drift prone to the navigational equipment utilized, the positional data has the aircraft departing a gate further east of Gate D26 and on the north side of the Concourse.

CLICK IMAGES TO ENLARGE - CLICK BACK TO RETURN

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD_Adjust.jpg)

On closer inspection....

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD_Gate_Text.jpg)

CLICK IMAGES TO ENLARGE - CLICK BACK TO RETURN

Once again the data being offered by government agencies do not support their theories.

Is this a possible aircraft swap before they even left the ground? Pilots For 9/11 Truth discover evidence of possible airborne aircraft swaps as well in their latest release "9/11: Intercepted". In almost 10 years since the attacks of 9/11, there hasn't been any evidence offered thus far which supports the government version of events, nor evidence linking their data to their reported allegations.

Founded in August 2006, Pilots For 9/11 Truth is a growing organization of aviation professionals from around the globe. The organization has analyzed Data provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) for the Pentagon Attack, the events in Shanksville, PA and the World Trade Center Attack. The data does not support the government story. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment. Pilots For 9/11 Truth do not offer theory or point blame at this point in time. However, there is a growing mountain of conflicting information and data in which government agencies and officials refuse to acknowledge. Pilots For 9/11 Truth Core member list continues to grow.

(1) Hat tip to forum member Jan "tume" Zelman - See here for full discussion and sources. http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21125

[rob balsamo]

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[amazed!]

Yes, once again, for the umpteenth time, the OCT is contradicted by evidence.

[maturin42]

Be sure to share and Tweet!

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Big Ooooooooops!!!!!!

Somebody got a lot of 'splaining to do.

This post has been edited by maturin42: Feb 28 2011, 10:16 AM

[Paul]

Hahaha lol rofl the gubbernments OCT fails again looks like yet another massive hole lol.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laughing1.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laughing1.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[mainer]

It would help to have the pictures appear with the text -- I had to open them in other tabs in my browser. Is that possible.

In examining the fourth picture (the overlay) in the context of the red/yellow definitions (Red M1 is at the Terminal, Yellow M2 is backed out and start of Taxi), if North is "up" (since D26 is at the SW corner of the terminal), then the plane is backing up southward (M2 is "below" M1). But if the plane is, as suggested, on the north side of the terminal at M1, how does backing up put it south of where it started. The M2 position appears to be right in the terminal. Am I missing something here?

Also, a minor clarification requested: is the description of Green P9-P0 -- night before engine off -- meant to say "right before?" If so, is the green referring to its approach to the terminal prior to loading?

Thanks for any clarification.

[rob balsamo]

It would help to have the pictures appear with the text -- I had to open them in other tabs in my browser. Is that possible.

In examining the fourth picture (the overlay) in the context of the red/yellow definitions (Red M1 is at the Terminal, Yellow M2 is backed out and start of Taxi), if North is "up" (since D26 is at the SW corner of the terminal), then the plane is backing up southward (M2 is "below" M1). But if the plane is, as suggested, on the north side of the terminal at M1, how does backing up put it south of where it started. The M2 position appears to be right in the terminal. Am I missing something here?

Also, a minor clarification requested: is the description of Green P9-P0 -- night before engine off -- meant to say "right before?" If so, is the green referring to its approach to the terminal prior to loading?

Thanks for any clarification.

The pictures are embedded if you are logged in. Only a link appears if you are not logged in. Reason being is to prevent excessive bandwidth usage for hotlinking and faster page load times for our guests.

Here is an adjustment of the lat/long plot to Gate D26 which may answer your other questions.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD_Adjust_D26.jpg)

More here... http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795507

I agree it does seem a bit reversed when considering the description, but there could be a small error in matters of feet when getting to such resolution.

The fact remains there isnt any possible way that aircraft could have departed from gate D26.

The text you refer to is Night, with an "N".

Here is the data if you wish to plot it yourself.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4574

[panthercat]

Interesting. I still say those airplanes were incapable of doing all of the damage they were said to have done, if indeed they were there at all.

[elreb]

When a military flight takes off from a Civilian/Public airport…how is that flight recorded?

Does BTS bother with them?

[rob balsamo]

I have gotten some messages from people who are a bit confused with the color coding and whether the first position was north or south of Concourse D.

The color coding was done by one of our forum members Undertow when we first got the raw file decode. You can read it referenced here...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795490

The original color coding may have been misinterpreted as the aircraft start is usually after push back from the gate unless the aircraft requires ground power.. .etc.

So the red M1 position should perhaps read "start engines after pushback", yellow M2 is the "forward movement of aircraft and turn to taxi".

The adjustment overlay for the IRS offset could have been adjust a bit better as well. All in all, it appears a more north gate departure than a southern gate departure as a south gate departure would place some of the taxi and all of the takeoff in the grass..

Either way, north or south, the aircraft did not depart gate D26, which conflicts with the govt story.

Some have claimed the IRS aligned itself shortly after departure. This is impossible, and here is why.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795516

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795522

An aircraft can update it's position in flight, but this is very different than initial alignment. If an initial alignment wasnt performed, the updates in flight will not be accurate. See links above for detailed descriptions and the reasons why such an issue is important (albeit not so much to this specific discussion).

[onesliceshort]

Rob, I've scoured through some work over the years regarding 9/11 and I think this is the first time I've ever been left staring at a computer screen speechless all night. Not because I haven't seen more impressive sleuthing or presentations (both from CIT and this forum) but because of the simplicity and raw in your face undeniability that the FDR was manipulated and/or didn't come from "Flight 77".

Hats off to you and Tume.

Sorry, have to throw my 2cents in here..

Could this data have been made on another aircraft leaving from the gates north of D26, pre-9/11, making almost the same route as seen in the "data" and then tinkered with the numbers in the final seconds to purposely muddy the NOC flightpath to leave a "margin of error" for government loyalists to play with (and drag out)?

I know Sgt William Lagasse described a "rookie pilot" overshooting the Pentagon in the days after 9/11 (need to find direct quote).
And that Aldo has heard from witnesses who heard and felt a low flying passenger jet at very low altitude in Arlington in the weeks before 9/11.

Is it possible to find the flights that left from those gates (D21 and D19) in the weeks before and after 9/11?

I'll gladly hunt for them if pointed in the right direction.

[rob balsamo]

I'll gladly hunt for them if pointed in the right direction.

Try the airline and the FBI via FOIA.

The Airline will probably tell you to pound sand, and the FBI FOIA reply will probably say something along the lines of .... "these aircraft were not involved in 9/11, therefore your request is not pertinent and denied".

Perhaps the only way to get those records is through subpoena power through a lawsuit brought forward by a direct victim.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon_lawsuit

Now if we can only get a Judge who will actually look at the evidence before dismissing it as frivolous.

Not sure if the BTS database contains gate's, but i suppose you can check there too.

[aerohead]

Wow, this is very interesting. Excellent work.

And i didnt see anything wrong with the explanation of the IRS
system as explained in your links Rob. What i think you have is a
home run, or atleast a triple. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I looked at your pictures and it sure looks to me that that plane
backed out of gate D18 and here's why. The red M1 is parked,
the Yellow M2 is pushed back from the gate, (plane pushed south
out of the gate, toward bottom of picture) and judging by the length
of taxi west, you are dead on for the left turn onto the other taxiway.
Maybe there is a slight mis-match of the superimposing
of the pictures that puts it on the opposite side, but by this information,
it had to have been pushed back from the south side of the terminal around
D18, definitely not from gate D26 imo. The IRS' use laser ring gyros and are
pretty accurate, they are close to a Mil a piece. They do have a small allowable
drift rate and if they exceed that they fault. And if i remember correctly, if they
are aligned by using the airport designator only, they align to the gps position
of the center of the airport. Pilots use gate position or actual gps position.

Cant help wonder what we are dealing with here. A swap ? A "show" plane and
a "go" plane ? Shotty fabricated info ?


Anyway thats my .02

[rob balsamo]

Wow, this is very interesting. Excellent work.

And i didnt see anything wrong with the explanation of the IRS
system as explained in your links Rob. What i think you have is a
home run, or atleast a triple. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I looked at your pictures and it sure looks to me that that plane
backed out of gate D18 and here's why. The red M1 is parked,
the Yellow M2 is pushed back from the gate, (plane pushed south
out of the gate, toward bottom of picture) and judging by the length
of taxi west, you are dead on for the left turn onto the other taxiway.
Maybe there is a slight mis-match of the superimposing
of the pictures that puts it on the opposite side, but by this information,
it had to have been pushed back from the south side of the terminal around
D18, definitely not from gate D26 imo. The IRS' use laser ring gyros and are
pretty accurate, they are close to a Mil a piece. They do have a small allowable
drift rate and if they exceed that they fault. And if i remember correctly, if they
are aligned by using the airport designator only, they align to the gps position
of the center of the airport. Pilots use gate position or actual gps position.

Cant help wonder what we are dealing with here. A swap ? A "show" plane and
a "go" plane ? Shotty fabricated info ?


Anyway thats my .02

Thanks aerohead.

But i have to disagree that it looks like its from the south side of the concourse. Mainly because if we adjust to the south side, the aircraft would be taxing partially on grass and taking off south of RWY 30 from grass. This is what it would look like if it was pushed back from D18. Notice also the Green staging area positions are on top of the terminal and in the grass.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/D18_Pushback.jpg)


I think Undertow may have misinterpreted the Red and yellow positions (and i probably should have stated so in the original article so it didnt confuse people as it seems to be doing). I think the red is after pushback when the engine starts and the FDR is then recording the positions, then the yellow is forward movement into a "nose swing" right turn into a taxi.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD_Adjust.jpg)

The rest falls in line.

[pugsley]

Sorry if I'm missing something here but doesn't this BTS information clarify the role of Flight 77 in the events of 9/11:

http://www.fromdusktildawn.org.uk/Joining%...light_data.html

[aerohead]

Thanks aerohead.

But i have to disagree that it looks like its from the south side of the concourse. Mainly because if we adjust to the south side, the aircraft would be taxing partially on grass and taking off south of RWY 30 from grass. This is what it would look like if it was pushed back from D18. Notice also the Green staging area positions are on top of the terminal and in the grass.




I think Undertow may have misinterpreted the Red and yellow positions (and i probably should have stated so in the original article so it didnt confuse people as it seems to be doing). I think the red is after pushback when the engine starts and the FDR is then recording the positions, then the yellow is forward movement into a "nose swing" right turn into a taxi.



The rest falls in line.

That makes perfect sense with the yellow/red meanings reversed, and would put the plane
pushing back from around D21 on the opposite side. The other way had it pushing back into
the terminal and not from it, which didnt make sense to me. The IRS' are pretty accurate and
this is a problem for the OCT.
Thanks for the correction.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

[rob balsamo]

Sorry if I'm missing something here but doesn't this BTS information clarify the role of Flight 77 in the events of 9/11:

http://www.fromdusktildawn.org.uk/Joining%...light_data.html

I havent researched the BTS information thoroughly, but i beleive it's been debunked. Do a search around this forum. The tail number used for AAL aircraft is a coded number, something like N5BDF (dont quote me as i dont recall).

I think tume can find you a direct link on this forum with the discussion.

[rob balsamo]

That makes perfect sense with the yellow/red meanings reversed, and would put the plane
pushing back from around D21 on the opposite side. The other way had it pushing back into
the terminal and not from it, which didnt make sense to me. The IRS' are pretty accurate and
this is a problem for the OCT.
Thanks for the correction.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

You're welcome.

Yeah, it doesnt make much sense for the aircraft to be positioned at the gate engines running and the FDR recording prior to push back. Thats how people get sucked into the engines... :-)

Unless they needed an airstart or ground power, which is unlikely, and it also doesnt match the rest of the overlay when start postion is adjusted on the south of the concourse.

The only path which fits the entire taxi to the runway is a north of concourse pushback, engine start, first lat/long recorded (Red M1), and then taxi from there.

[dMz]

I havent researched the BTS information thoroughly, but i beleive it's been debunked. Do a search around this forum. The tail number used for AAL aircraft is a coded number, something like N5BDF (dont quote me as i dont recall).

I think tume can find you a direct link on this forum with the discussion.

"N5BPAA" was American Airlines' coding scheme for "AAL77," I believe:

http://airgames.bravehost.com/tailnumbers.html

[rob balsamo]

"N5BPAA" was American Airlines' coding scheme for "AAL77," I believe:

http://airgames.bravehost.com/tailnumbers.html

Well well, look who it is!

Good to see ya stranger!

Where the hell ya been?