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Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757, PilotsFor911Truth.org

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GeantVert
post Nov 10 2011, 11:02 AM
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Hi Rob,

Thanks for this great article. I'm editorialist at reopen911(.)info, a French site that deals with 911 news. I've a question regarding this article "Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757" and the fact that AA aircrafts were NOT equipped with GPS in 2001. How can you be so sure of that ? Any source to provide ? Did AA recognize it at any time ?
Note that I've translated and published your article back in March 2011 (http://www.reopen911.info/News/?p=23921), but I just wanted to be able to answer a comment recently posted on our own Web site.
Thanks again for all your work.
Best
--GV
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rob balsamo
post Nov 10 2011, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (GeantVert @ Nov 10 2011, 11:02 AM) *
Hi Rob,

Thanks for this great article. I'm editorialist at reopen911(.)info, a French site that deals with 911 news. I've a question regarding this article "Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757" and the fact that AA aircrafts were NOT equipped with GPS in 2001. How can you be so sure of that ? Any source to provide ? Did AA recognize it at any time ?
Note that I've translated and published your article back in March 2011 (http://www.reopen911.info/News/?p=23921), but I just wanted to be able to answer a comment recently posted on our own Web site.
Thanks again for all your work.
Best
--GV


Hi GV

Welcome to the forum and thank you for helping to distribute the information.

The aircraft in question, N644AA, was manufactured in 1991. GPS was not fully operational for Military use until 1994. GPS wasn't precise enough for civilian use until 2000.

The primary navigation equipment used by American Airlines 757's was the Inertial Reference System (IRS). There was no reason to retrofit AA 757's with GPS when they had perfectly good and working IRS navigation equipment they had been using for years, not to mention the added cost to retrofit a whole fleet with GPS.

Adding to the above, we also have several Capts from American Airlines who also confirm their aircraft were not equipped with GPS.

Hope this helps....
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rob balsamo
post Nov 15 2011, 01:50 PM
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Since I get asked this question regarding GPS from time to time, and since documentation does not exist which would show what an aircraft is not equipped with... I asked Capt Kolstad for a quote with respect to GPS.

"Let me say this as clearly as possible. I flew the B757/767 from 1986 to 2005. There was NEVER any GPS data or input to the Flight Navigation System during that time, which also INCLUDES 2001! QED

Ralph"


Quals and Experience:

Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
23,000 hours
27 years in the airlines
B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice
civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds
Command time in:
- N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
- N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)
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SeniorTrend
post Nov 16 2011, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Nov 15 2011, 10:50 AM) *
Since I get asked this question regarding GPS from time to time, and since documentation does not exist which would show what an aircraft is not equipped with... I asked Capt Kolstad for a quote with respect to GPS.

"Let me say this as clearly as possible. I flew the B757/767 from 1986 to 2005. There was NEVER any GPS data or input to the Flight Navigation System during that time, which also INCLUDES 2001! QED

Ralph"


Quals and Experience:

Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
23,000 hours
27 years in the airlines
B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice
civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds
Command time in:
- N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
- N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)


Please correct me if I am wrong - the IRS (ring laser gyro?) IRS was considered more accurate at the time than commercially available GPS (P coded GPS had I think been approved for non-military use, but even P code was not as accurate as onboard prooperlay alligned IRS ) DGPS was approved for Cat III in the Advisory Circular AC 120-28D July 13, 1999, but as Capt. Kolstad states, the fleet had not been retrofitted with DGPS. I think, again, please correct me if I am wrong, the onboard IRS was approved as a navaid for Cat III approaches (used along with localizer/glideslope of course).

The IRS has certain advantages which makes it preferable anyway - such as the potential of a large solar CME frying all or part of the GPS constallation. Anyway, bottom line Capt. Kolstad's comment should I hope, lay to rest the GPS questions regarding this event.
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SeniorTrend
post Nov 16 2011, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (SeniorTrend @ Nov 16 2011, 09:05 AM) *
Please correct me if I am wrong - the IRS (ring laser gyro?) IRS was considered more accurate at the time than commercially available GPS (P coded GPS had I think been approved for non-military use, but even P code was not as accurate as onboard properly alligned IRS ) DGPS was approved for Cat III in the Advisory Circular AC 120-28D July 13, 1999, but as Capt. Kolstad states, the fleet had not been retrofitted with DGPS. I think, again, please correct me if I am wrong, the onboard IRS was approved as a navaid for Cat III approaches (used along with localizer/glideslope of course).

The IRS has certain advantages which makes it preferable anyway - such as the potential of a large solar CME frying all or part of the GPS constallation. Anyway, bottom line Capt. Kolstad's comment should I hope, lay to rest the GPS questions regarding this event.


Addendum to last post:
Even the most advanced platform that we had (the F-117) relied on ring laser gyro IRS. It was only later, that MILITARY accuracy (much greater than P coded or differential GPS) was used as a secondary guidance system to supplement the onboard IRS. It stands to reason that if the most sophisticated platform that we had, relied upon onboard IRS, does it also make sense that an internal IRS guidance platform would be relied upon in the commercial fleet? OK - NOW case closed LOL
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rob balsamo
post Nov 16 2011, 12:46 PM
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Hi SeniorTrend,

Please review the full article on the first page of this thread to understand the significance of the GPS discussion.

Here is the relevant text from the article...


AUTO-ALIGNMENT AND GPS

Military aircraft were equipped with GPS (Global Positioning Systems) long before GPS was offered for Commercial use. When equipped, they can auto-align the Inertial Reference System. N644AA (American Airlines Flight 77) was not equipped with a GPS. However, when one looks through the data, it shows a GPS as "OPERational"(12) and an airborne auto-alignment. How can a GPS be "OPER" if the data is reported to come from an aircraft which doesn't have a GPS? The data shows that the Lat/Long plots auto-aligned with Radar plots in flight after departure(9). American Airlines aircraft do not have the capability of in flight alignment nor would such an aircraft depart with such a large error and an IRS as it's primary source for navigation. It is impossible for an IRS equipped American Airlines jet to give accurate position information if the system was not aligned at the gate. The aircraft needs to be stationary for proper alignment or else the navigational device will have large errors and could perhaps be fatal(10). According to American Airlines 757/767 Captain Ralph Kolstad who has actual flight time in N644AA, if the Inertial Reference System (IRS) is lost in flight (or shows large errors), an emergency has to be declared. The aircraft is required to sit stationary for more than 10 minutes in order obtain a full alignment of the Inertial Reference System prior to every flight, according to and as required by American Airlines 757/767 Operating Manual(11). How can an auto-align occur airborne if American Airlines aircraft do not have this capability nor a GPS? This is more evidence demonstrating the data did not come from an American Airlines jet.
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SeniorTrend
post Nov 16 2011, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (23investigator @ Sep 23 2011, 05:10 PM) *
Dear SeniorTrend.

Would you know if 'remote controlled aircraft', such as the Global Hawk (GH), would be required to carry a Flight Data Recorder.

There has been a lot written about the considerations of such aircraft having access to 'normal commercial airspace', even as far back as 2001.
In fact a (GH) flew to South Australia in April 2001, virtually over the roof of my house.
If it had come to grief here, I would most certainly have expected that the aircraft had the latest data recording aboard, to make sure it did not happen again.

Other articles have indicated that within the design criteria of the (GH), it was to be built using as much commercially (proprietry) equipment available, especially in respect to the electronics.

Whilst it has been suggested that another type of aircraft was set up to be remote controlled and used against the Pentagon building, there is considerable evidence to suggest otherwise, as what debris has been 'photographed, videoed', in the immediate period after the impact, is much more like components of a (GH).
In fact more and more is coming to light, as more and better images become available.

Don't know how you go about finding this 'key' you have spoken of, but my effort would certainly be in looking at anything connected with the Global Hawk.

You gotta start somewhere, may as well be there, could save a lot of walks around the block.

Robert


Hi Robert,
First, as to GH having an onboard FDR - possible, but if it did, it would be using Type 1 encryption of its stored data (type 1 is "No Such Agency" strength approved for the protection of up to T.S./SCI - so its very strong) I have not seen this data stream, but would love to. Telemetry (including FDR, although not strictly inthis case, telemetry) follows certain standards for establishing frame and sub-frame (forgive me I'm digging back in my memory banks pretty far back) - But within that standard developed by the Inter-range Instrumentation Group - (IRIG) - there was alot of latitude (Boeing had thiers, Northrop theirs and Lockheed theirs . The fact that the data store itself is plain text, is fairly curious, if it was from GH. Its more likely that the data is a fabrication, and possibly an amalgam from various sources - If I can see the data capture, we MIGHT be able to "crack the code" and make some observations. GH relies on GCCS (classified) and some proprietary systems for guidance and control as well as mission data, which I think goes first to the NRO (or its current incarnation) - telemetered flight data, would likely go to various locations. If FDR was placed on board a GH platform it would seem most logical that it would be disabled for 911 - ...the level of stupididity to include an active FDR on such a "mission" could only be attributed to hubris... (we did this and you can't do a thing about it).... I'm more than willing to look at the raw data and see if I can make sense of the format and who's standard it might conform to - but I can't make any guarantees...... (please forgive any gramaticals or typo's - I'm trying to convey content and I tend to type stream of conciousness.... LOL)
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SeniorTrend
post Nov 16 2011, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Nov 16 2011, 09:46 AM) *
Hi SeniorTrend,

Please review the full article on the first page of this thread to understand the significance of the GPS discussion.

Here is the relevant text from the article...


AUTO-ALIGNMENT AND GPS

Military aircraft were equipped with GPS (Global Positioning Systems) long before GPS was offered for Commercial use. When equipped, they can auto-align the Inertial Reference System. N644AA (American Airlines Flight 77) was not equipped with a GPS. However, when one looks through the data, it shows a GPS as "OPERational"(12) and an airborne auto-alignment. How can a GPS be "OPER" if the data is reported to come from an aircraft which doesn't have a GPS? The data shows that the Lat/Long plots auto-aligned with Radar plots in flight after departure(9). American Airlines aircraft do not have the capability of in flight alignment nor would such an aircraft depart with such a large error and an IRS as it's primary source for navigation. It is impossible for an IRS equipped American Airlines jet to give accurate position information if the system was not aligned at the gate. The aircraft needs to be stationary for proper alignment or else the navigational device will have large errors and could perhaps be fatal(10). According to American Airlines 757/767 Captain Ralph Kolstad who has actual flight time in N644AA, if the Inertial Reference System (IRS) is lost in flight (or shows large errors), an emergency has to be declared. The aircraft is required to sit stationary for more than 10 minutes in order obtain a full alignment of the Inertial Reference System prior to every flight, according to and as required by American Airlines 757/767 Operating Manual(11). How can an auto-align occur airborne if American Airlines aircraft do not have this capability nor a GPS? This is more evidence demonstrating the data did not come from an American Airlines jet.


Yup, concur and I had read that - my intent was to perhaps drive one more nail in the GPS coffin and put it to rest. The fact that the data stream shows GPS OPerative only shows the stupidity or hubris, or both of the the perpetrators of this traitorous deed.
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rob balsamo
post Nov 16 2011, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE (SeniorTrend @ Nov 16 2011, 12:50 PM) *
I'm more than willing to look at the raw data and see if I can make sense of the format and who's standard it might conform to - but I can't make any guarantees...... (please forgive any gramaticals or typo's - I'm trying to convey content and I tend to type stream of conciousness.... LOL)



NTSB Data download - CSV and raw data.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=64
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SeniorTrend
post Nov 16 2011, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Nov 16 2011, 10:00 AM) *
NTSB Data download - CSV and raw data.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=64


Thank you Rob.
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