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Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757, PilotsFor911Truth.org

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rob balsamo
post Mar 7 2011, 01:41 AM
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Here is more information which supports what Capt Ralph Kolstad has been saying...

On the ground, the FMC position is based on the IRS position.

Since inertial systems accumulate position errors as a function of time, the position information being used by the FMC is slowly accumulating errors. These position errors can be detected by observing the position of the airplane on the HSI map. If an extended ground delay occurs and a significant map error is noticed the IRS should be realigned and present position re-entered.


http://www.biggles-software.com/software/7...on_position.htm

Although there doesn't appear to be a "ground delay" in the data causing the 3,000+ foot error, it's clear the error is there before the aircraft started to move. This suggests the IRS was never aligned and the aircraft had in flight NAV auto-align capability.

In other words, if the aircraft were an American Airlines 757, it would have never left the gate with such a large error. If the aircraft was aligned at the gate and experienced a large error during taxi, it would have needed to be realigned to the Present Position. If it was not able to be re-aligned, the aircraft would have needed to return to the gate.


The aircraft would have never gotten off the ground if it were an American Airlines 757 with such a large positional error in the IRS.
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Bruce Sinclair
post Mar 7 2011, 03:59 AM
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Thanks for the links, Rob. I have read through all of the threads now and am finally getting back up to speed!

Regards,

Bruce

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 5 2011, 11:05 PM) *
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795419

Let me know if you need more....




What if the IRS never had any "brains" (alignment) to begin with?

Read the article, Click the footnotes. Learn from American Airlines 757/767 Captains, some of which have flown N644AA, along with pilots from pprune.

Thanks for your inquiry Bruce.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 7 2011, 04:10 AM
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QUOTE (Bruce Sinclair @ Mar 7 2011, 03:59 AM) *
Thanks for the links, Rob. I have read through all of the threads now and am finally getting back up to speed!

Regards,

Bruce


Good to hear Bruce. smile.gif

I also sent you a message on Facebook. I apologizing for being a bit short, but i been battling what appears to be a concerted disinformation campaign launched by detractors. Hillary Clinton is even asking for more money because it appears we're winning. wink.gif

I sent you my number in the FB message... feel free to call me anytime you have questions and i can get you up to speed much faster than reading through all the posts written over the past few months, exposing their BS.
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tumetuestumefais...
post Mar 7 2011, 11:45 AM
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I was just looking back into the 84Rades data and the target which should be our FDR plane and continuously transponding M3 6553 seem there also transponding M2 6553, 1220 and 1324 and twice even M2 Beacon messages 0330 and 0160.
How it comes an alleged AA civil jetliner seems to sometimes squawk M2? dunno.gif
For illustration:
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DonM
post Mar 7 2011, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 6 2011, 10:14 PM) *
You must be careful when using such words as the FDR data is not irrelevant at all.

Making such statements will have the layman looking the other way. For example, "Why bother to look at it when it doesn' t support the govt story?"

The FDR data is evidence and is being introduced in a court of law. The fact that the NTSB/FBI claims it comes from N644AA, yet does support an impact with the Pentagon and the fact that not only isn't there any evidence linking the data to N644AA, but actual evidence demonstrating that it could not have come from an American Airlines aircraft, is extremely relevant to the investigation.



Rob,
Of course it's relevant to the investigation... it simply proves that some Gov't agency concocted a bogus set of data and released it in answer to a valid FOIA request. The data itself is totally irrelevant. You can't be saying this part of the data is good and that part is bad... that would be like being a little bit pregnant.

When you say "could not have come from an American Airlines aircraft", don't you mean "could not have come from any civilian aircraft"?
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amazed!
post Mar 7 2011, 03:51 PM
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....assuming that the "investigation" is not a whitewash coverup..... cleanup.gif
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maturin42
post Mar 7 2011, 04:17 PM
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The relevance of the data is due to the nature of it. It is almost certainly an artifact produced and promoted as part of the official coverup and as such it is evidence of that coverup. Moreover, it contains within it clues to how it may have been produced, why, and by whom it was produced, and it also defines the limits of what they were willing/able to fake. The information produced by Rob and Tume about what it tells us about the INS/IRS and the sloppiness of those who were flying the mission in the FDR aircraft is amazing, and you can almost see the CIA asshole who has to fly the profile and he, not being an AA pilot cuts corners - "I don't need no stinkin IRS for this. I just have to buzz the Pentagon". But don't mistake. It is part of the forensic record, and also an act of high treason that could get somebody hanged (we can only hope). When the data didn't match the story we were being told, okay, that made us scratch our heads. But when it proved it could not have been in the plane alleged to have departed from D26, that is a blockbuster.

Rob, I don't know if you plan a congressional letter or petition around this, but I would think it might get some attention. Glad to help if I can.

This post has been edited by maturin42: Mar 7 2011, 04:21 PM
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rob balsamo
post Mar 7 2011, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (maturin42 @ Mar 7 2011, 04:17 PM) *
The relevance of the data is due to the nature of it. It is almost certainly an artifact produced and promoted as part of the official coverup and as such it is evidence of that coverup. Moreover, it contains within it clues to how it may have been produced, why, and by whom it was produced, and it also defines the limits of what they were willing/able to fake. The information produced by Rob and Tume about what it tells us about the INS/IRS and the sloppiness of those who were flying the mission in the FDR aircraft is amazing, and you can almost see the CIA asshole who has to fly the profile and he, not being an AA pilot cuts corners - "I don't need no stinkin IRS for this. I just have to buzz the Pentagon". But don't mistake. It is part of the forensic record, and also an act of high treason that could get somebody hanged (we can only hope). When the data didn't match the story we were being told, okay, that made us scratch our heads. But when it proved it could not have been in the plane alleged to have departed from D26, that is a blockbuster.

Rob, I don't know if you plan a congressional letter or petition around this, but I would think it might get some attention. Glad to help if I can.



Well said Shelton.... and I've already sent my letters. smile.gif

As for the data being "fake". I havent seen any evidence (yet) that the data was not generated by an aircraft, but what we do have, is evidence that the data was not produced by AA77, N644AA, on Sept 11, 2001, nor does it support an impact with the Pentagon.
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onesliceshort
post Mar 7 2011, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (DonM)
You can't be saying this part of the data is good and that part is bad... that would be like being a little bit pregnant.


I don't know if you've just phrased that wrong or not Don, but I've certainly never got that impression from the approach to the FDR. At all.

Maturin42... thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif

Edit Typo

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Mar 7 2011, 05:33 PM
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23investigator
post Mar 7 2011, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (tumetuestumefaisdubien @ Mar 8 2011, 02:15 AM) *
I was just looking back into the 84Rades data and the target which should be our FDR plane and continuously transponding M3 6553 seem there also transponding M2 6553, 1220 and 1324 and twice even M2 Beacon messages 0330 and 0160.
How it comes an alleged AA civil jetliner seems to sometimes squawk M2? dunno.gif
For illustration:


Dear Tumetuestumefaisdubien.

That is a very good question.
A 'squawk' only occurs as a response to a question --I think--.
If that is correct, somebody must have been asking a question!! --I think--
Perhaps the only way of assessing where something was ??

Regards

Robert
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23investigator
post Mar 7 2011, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (23investigator @ Mar 8 2011, 08:24 AM) *
Dear Tumetuestumefaisdubien.

That is a very good question.
A 'squawk' only occurs as a response to a question --I think--.
If that is correct, somebody must have been asking a question!! --I think--
Perhaps the only way of assessing where something was ??

Regards

Robert


Particularly if that 'something' was particularly designed to have a 'very poor' primary identification, and the 757 was 'mute'.

Robert
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tumetuestumefais...
post Mar 8 2011, 05:47 AM
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QUOTE (23investigator @ Mar 7 2011, 10:54 AM) *
Dear Tumetuestumefaisdubien.

That is a very good question.
A 'squawk' only occurs as a response to a question --I think--.
If that is correct, somebody must have been asking a question!! --I think--
Perhaps the only way of assessing where something was ??

Regards

Robert

I don't really know. This M2 codes are not validated in the data by a special validation bit, so it can be also just injects to confuse. Question remains why somebody would do it with our planes. All seem transpond M2, some on numerous occassions and in some cases it even looks like they seem to squawk M2 codes quite logically when joining other suspicious planes, contrary to the almost common idea nobody cared about them... When one looks then what is happenig for example at Andrews AFB and finds out how many planes seem to take there off and land since 8:35, often covered by other planes, doing then very weird things, contrary to the almost common idea the base was mighty dead until the attack on Pentagon, then one smells a big fat rat. So far I've discovered more than 300 confirmed military tracks just in the span of 3 hours of our 911 prime time and in fact I'm after time still just on the beginning of confirming military planes - which is quite a feat, because there is more than 90 thousand military squawks in the 84Rades data inmiddle of milions of M3 squawks - and there also seem to be really numerous planes which originate at numerous military bases, which then squawk civil M3 only.
Sincerely
Tume
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rob balsamo
post Mar 8 2011, 08:02 PM
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Just wanted to consolidate and move these quotes to a more visible location as from what i understand, anonymous detractors on the net are in full spin mode throwing themselves into a frenzy trying to mislead others that a 3,000+ error in lat/long is "normal" prior to departure. Of course they offer no proof nor put their name to their claims, and never will, because it is not normal. They're getting desperate. Note the multiple references to "Present Position" below. This means Present Position, not "a half mile from Present position" as some detractors might want you to believe. Also note what is stated if the Present position is found to be inaccurate, the IRS needs to be realigned.


E. When ALIGN is selected, power is applied to the IRU's and the IRU's normally progress through an alignment period of approximately 10 minutes before the navigational mode is armed. When the switches are maintained in ALIGN, however, the IRU's remain in the align mode. Normal alignment requires the entry of present position into the IRU's.

Source - http://digilander.libero.it/andreatheone/irs.htm

Quotes from pprune pilots after being shown the 3000+ offset at IAD.


"There is a big difference between updating a position.. ok..., which is not a problem at all, and Re-Aligning an IRS in flight which is not possible :=."



"If the Present Position is incorrect when the INS is initialized, it will NOT "re-align" itself! It should be shut down and re-initialized with the correct Present Position."


"No IRS realign in flight, ... alignement realign requires the platform to be stable. no acceleration, no movement, sometimes the movement created by loading container is enough to screw up the align process, on a modern Airliner."


"When you start in the morning, you tell it where it is. Either by telling it the gate position or by giving it the GPS position."

"An error in position input during initial alignment, apart from obvious bias, will give the wrong "G" initial value and induce wrong vertical acceleration (delta between the sensed real one and the erroneous one)"

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795522




Quotes from American Airlines Captains -

"...on cursory examination something is screwy, those things are so accurate in the 75, 76, 73, and FK100, that we always, always put in the exact gate coordinates on each gate at each airport when preparing to go, so that -may- indicate some trickery of some kind...."

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795633


"....when pilots align the IRS, the Present Position from the Jeppesen Gate Coordinates chart is input by the FO and it is double checked by the Captain. Pilots especially pay close attention to this procedure on a long flight (such as it was reported IAD-LAX)..... there is no possible way, even if the FO and Captain input the wrong Lat/Long with aligned IRU's, that an American Airlines 757 could align an error/offset in flight for such a large error in such a short time as is depicted in the data. Garbage in = Garbage out...... the Capt and FO would have also noticed such a large error if not at the gate, but during taxi to the runway, and if such a large error could not be corrected prior to departure, they would have had to return to the gate.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795792


From biggles -

On the ground, the FMC position is based on the IRS position.

Since inertial systems accumulate position errors as a function of time, the position information being used by the FMC is slowly accumulating errors. These position errors can be detected by observing the position of the airplane on the HSI map. If an extended ground delay occurs and a significant map error is noticed the IRS should be realigned and present position re-entered.


http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795802


Some anonymous detractors have also argued that the "Present Position" input by the pilots may have been the Airport Position found on the Airport Diagram Chart (instead of the actual gate position, thereby, not following procedure at American Airlines). This is the Airport Lat/Long from the Jeppesen "10-9/9A" chart.



As you can see, it's pretty darn close to gate D26.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that the lat/long should be off by more than 3000 feet as shown in the FDR data, unless of course, the data did not come from an American Airlines 757. Which it didn't.

If anyone wants to see the "10-9/9A" lat/long scanned from the Jepp chart (it's actually a 20-9/9A chart due to the fact it's the second airport in the list for "Washington"), let me know. I'll have to fire up my other pc to scan it...



The data did not come from an American Airlines aircraft.
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albertchampion
post Mar 9 2011, 01:01 AM
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i have often labeled jose padilla as the man in the iron mask. the man who knew too much and had to have his memory banks erased.

the same erasures may have been some of the objectives for all those incarcerated at gitmo and elsewhere. at the very least, the torture was similar to that invented by torquemada, designed to elicit a "confesson of guilt" so as to "cover" the treason of the real culprits.

today, my former branch of this nation's military, usmc, has decided to continue and play the role of the praetorian guard...no pretense now of upholding the oath to act consititutionally. as the usmc destroyed jose padilla's brain[remember, it was probably padilla that was the third man at OKBOMB], the usmc has now decided to destroy bradley manning's. on the order of the potus.

what happened to padilla, is now happening to manning, can now happen to all if one should get in the way of this increasingly stalinist state.

and never forget, manning is being subjected to this torture based on allegations. from a very undependable source, one adrian lamo as i recall. another curveball?

the star chamber is alive and functioning in the brig at quantico. and based on the padilla history, one doesn't have to be a member of the us military to be incarcerated in such a brig.

i knew the brig at quantico. you don't ever want to be imprisoned there. it is similar to the chateau d'if.

i sometimes think that there will come a day when we get so indelibly a picture of the reality of the state treason of that day in september, that the bills of attainder will be secretly issued. and a round-up will occur.

and if there will be any comment from the state, it will be cass sunstein having a news conference telling the world that "conspiracy theorists" have become enemies of the best order of the state and need suppressing.

and dr ewen cameron's work for the cia at the allen memorial institute will be invigorated to jumble the brains of the "conspiracy theorists".

on this board, real truths have been revealed. truths that the state would prefer to see hidden.

i know, it may sound paranoid, but the bradley manning story informs me that this state will go beyond any predecessor state to silence truth tellers.
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tumetuestumefais...
post Mar 9 2011, 01:39 AM
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Hi Albert, with all the respect to the ideas laid down I somehow don't find the connection of your post with our "AA77" topic, can you explain?
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albertchampion
post Mar 9 2011, 02:25 AM
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i can explain. this board is getting closer to truths that the state would prefer to remain unrevealed.

just as bradley manning may have revealed truths that the state would have preferred to have remain unrevealed.

bradley manning has been incarcerated in a torturous situation. and i think that assange feels that the manning torture and the swedish government are part of a pogrom to incarcerate him.

i feel that there will come a time when this board will become noticed as a repository of evidence of usg crimes greater than those that manning/assange have revealed.

in fact, i would assert that there is no other site in the world that has distilled so many of the state's prevarications about that day in september. to a large extent, this essence has been retained within this very limited assemblage. but, i sense that those realities that we discuss, that some have uncovered, continue to uncover, may begin to break out of these confines.

this state will no more want those genies out of the bottle than they want manning's/assange's genies out of the bottle.

no more than it wants al-jazeera english to have an audience in the usa.

until the bradley manning incarceration/torture, i thought that it might be possible to rewrite the "official" history of that day in september.

and get away with it. in other words, reality might be revealed, but as if a koan[the sound of a tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear it].

if bradley manning revealed what he is reported to have revealed, in the usa, that was a virtual koan. very few know what he revealed. still, that revelation was enough to stimulate the state to shove him into a usmc brig.

and there may come a time when the state sees all of us as enemies of the state. and there are no longer any consititutional safeguards.

saying this does not mean that i advocate suspending the efforts to find the bastids and press on. it just means that the state has revealed it intends to employ all avenues to preserve its gangsterism.

and as this assemblage gets closer to a more complete picture about the events of that day, it begins to run into what i call the "snuffing". i can cite the names of some who got caught up in such a "snuffing". you probably know of them.

ray bonner. sy hersh. bob parry. gary webb. pete brewton. sydney schanberg. to name but a few.

my only point is that this latest revelation concerning aa77 raises this board to another level of scrutiny and concern.

and there are no longer any constitutional safeguards. the state in all its apparatus are conspiring to "snuff" its opponents.

it is that simple. any forms of dissent have now been rendered as unprotected speech[i.e., sedition].

have i still failed to say it as i meant it?
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Maha Mantra
post Mar 9 2011, 03:16 AM
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What about Flight 93's start position ?


There's talk that a civilian flight wouldn't be allowed to take off if the pilots entered incorrect gate/ start info. So that would mean somewhere somebody monitors this, or there is some kind of internal safety system that would prevent the flight from departing ? Are there any records of such things kept anywhere ? How does it work ?
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rob balsamo
post Mar 9 2011, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (Maha Mantra @ Mar 9 2011, 03:16 AM) *
What about Flight 93's start position ?


There's talk that a civilian flight wouldn't be allowed to take off if the pilots entered incorrect gate/ start info. So that would mean somewhere somebody monitors this, or there is some kind of internal safety system that would prevent the flight from departing ?


Yes, they are called Pilots, (and Airline Standard Operating Procedure).

QUOTE
Are there any records of such things kept anywhere ? How does it work ?


Yeah, it's called the Flight Data Recorder, as you have seen.

Flight Data Recorders have been pulled from the aircraft for all kinds of things. They're not just there to be read in case of an accident, they are there for Flight Safety. They can and have been pulled to discipline pilots for flying in an unsafe manner.

Departing with an incorrect lat/long position is like departing without setting your altimeter, or without calculating your V-Speeds. Its routine and cross-checked.

I haven't looked at the UA93 data in quite some time, but if i recall correctly, the Lat/Long was not provided by the NTSB.
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tumetuestumefais...
post Mar 9 2011, 06:33 AM
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QUOTE (Maha Mantra @ Mar 8 2011, 08:16 PM) *
What about Flight 93's start position ?

It would need the Lat/Lon, which are conveniently ommited in the NTSB "UA93" FDR csv files.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 9 2011, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 8 2011, 08:02 PM) *
Some anonymous detractors have also argued that the "Present Position" input by the pilots may have been the Airport Position found on the Airport Diagram Chart (instead of the actual gate position, thereby, not following procedure at American Airlines). This is the Airport Lat/Long from the Jeppesen "10-9/9A" chart.



As you can see, it's pretty darn close to gate D26.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that the lat/long should be off by more than 3000 feet as shown in the FDR data, unless of course, the data did not come from an American Airlines 757. Which it didn't.

If anyone wants to see the "10-9/9A" lat/long scanned from the Jepp chart (it's actually a 20-9/9A chart due to the fact it's the second airport in the list for "Washington"), let me know. I'll have to fire up my other pc to scan it...



The data did not come from an American Airlines aircraft.


I am doing some other work on my other pc, so I had time to scan the IAD Airport Diagram as a follow-up to the above. It's a high resolution scan, so i'll just leave the link, the image size is 1mb, 3299x2549

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD_20_9...ort_Diagram.jpg

The Airport Lat/Long is in the upper left corner. If you look in the same spot on the airport diagram, as is shown on the above GE image with the lat/long, you will see crosshairs. This is representative of the Airport Lat/Long on the 20-9 Chart, and the center of the airport.

And as a reminder, here are the Gate Lat/Long which the pilots use to input into the IRS prior to push-back.



I reiterate - There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that the lat/long should be off by more than 3000 feet as shown in the FDR data, unless of course, the data did not come from an American Airlines 757.
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