Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757, PilotsFor911Truth.org Rating Options

[amazed!]

So in the Dulles arrangement, each gate is separated by about .1 minute. Somewhere is written the number of feet between each gate position.

3000 feet would require a pretty large entry error, assuming that's all it was.

But it wasn't a data entry error, it was sheer fraud by the government.

[dMz]

So in the Dulles arrangement, each gate is separated by about .1 minute. Somewhere is written the number of feet between each gate position.

3000 feet would require a pretty large entry error, assuming that's all it was.

But it wasn't a data entry error, it was sheer fraud by the government.

Isn't that usually pronounced "plausible deniability" and "incompetent cock-up," amazed? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

(Also 'arcminute' will save a LOT of confusion on your 0.1 figure above, since most people associate "minute" with time, I have found. Goddamned Sumerians and their 'base 60' math, anyway ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_mathematics ).

[amazed!]

Thanks dMole, good to see you.

[Omega892R09]

Isn't that usually pronounced "plausible deniability" and "incompetent cock-up," amazed? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

(Also 'arcminute' will save a LOT of confusion on your 0.1 figure above, since most people associate "minute" with time, I have found. Goddamned Sumerians and their 'base 60' math, anyway (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_mathematics ).

Or from within a copy of this:

Mathematics: From the Birth of Numbers

a veritable mine of mathematics info in that one.

Anyway. Godadamned Yanks and their inside-out date notation. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/salute.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

EDIT. tpyo. these goddamned Raynaud's dissed fingers - ouch!

This post has been edited by Omega892R09: Mar 9 2011, 06:24 PM

[Omega892R09]

But it wasn't a data entry error, it was sheer fraud by the government.

Shall we say rougue elements within aided and abetted by criminals in the wider community or just dupes not too frightened, or no longer with us, to tell all.

Whatever. This is real good work by Tume and Rob. Well done. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/salute.gif)

I figure many of the loyalists can only fly Microsoft which provides only a pale shadow of real procedures in the real civil aviation world.

[rob balsamo]

Isn't that usually pronounced "plausible deniability" and "incompetent cock-up," amazed? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

"If the Present Position is incorrect when the INS is initialized, it will NOT "re-align" itself! It should be shut down and re-initialized with the correct Present Position."

"An error in position input during initial alignment, apart from obvious bias, will give the wrong "G" initial value and induce wrong vertical acceleration (delta between the sensed real one and the erroneous one)"


"....when pilots align the IRS, the Present Position from the Jeppesen Gate Coordinates chart is input by the FO and it is double checked by the Captain. Pilots especially pay close attention to this procedure on a long flight (such as it was reported IAD-LAX)..... there is no possible way, even if the FO and Captain input the wrong Lat/Long with aligned IRU's, that an American Airlines 757 could align an error/offset in flight for such a large error in such a short time as is depicted in the data. Garbage in = Garbage out...... the Capt and FO would have also noticed such a large error if not at the gate, but during taxi to the runway, and if such a large error could not be corrected prior to departure, they would have had to return to the gate.


Since inertial systems accumulate position errors as a function of time, the position information being used by the FMC is slowly accumulating errors. These position errors can be detected by observing the position of the airplane on the HSI map. If an extended ground delay occurs and a significant map error is noticed the IRS should be realigned and present position re-entered.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795879

[rob balsamo]

I haven't looked at the UA93 data in quite some time, but if i recall correctly, the Lat/Long was not provided by the NTSB.

I've become informed that there is Lat/Long data available for "UA93", through a decode done by our old friend Stutt. Although anything that comes out of the Legge/Stutt camp is usually discredited pretty quickly... i decided to give Rusty Aimer a call, since he has flight time in the United aircraft reportedly used on 9/11.

Allegedly, the UA93 data also shows an error in lat/long on the ground prior to departure and then an alignment/update in flight. Capt Aimer gave me permission to quote him.

"There is no way we would have departed with such an error in lat/long. I would have needed to pull to the side, re-align the IRS with the correct present position, and if it could not be corrected, i would have returned to the gate" - Capt Rusty Aimer

This is more evidence showing the aircraft used on 9/11 were not as reported.

I have spoken to many pilots over the past few days... I have not been able to find one pilot who has claimed he would depart with an error in lat/long and willing to put his/her name to such an absurd claim. I havent found any pilot willing to depart with such an error... period. If anyone finds one, and is willing to put their name to it... let us know.

[Johnny Angel]

If anyone finds one, and is willing to put their name to it... let us know.

I know three..

George H.W. Bush USNavy
George W Bush USAF
John McCain USNavy

But I cant guarentee they will reply...

[mrmitosis]

I have one detractor claiming that Dulles airport personnel made a note of the tail #N644AA when re-fuelling, and that a second check was done by ATC while the plane was on the runway.

I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to find out how verify or refute these claims, apart from a cursory Google and Wikipedia search, both of which yielded little or nothing.

Perhaps none of this even matters, if it hasn't been established that N644AA is linked to AA77.

Anybody? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

[rob balsamo]

I have one detractor claiming that Dulles airport personnel made a note of the tail #N644AA when re-fuelling, and that a second check was done by ATC while the plane was on the runway.

I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to find out how verify or refute these claims, apart from a cursory Google and Wikipedia search, both of which yielded little or nothing.

Perhaps none of this even matters, if it hasn't been established that N644AA is linked to AA77.

Anybody? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

Yes, many "detractors" arent even familiar with the argument. Or, they attempt to confuse the argument (hence the term 'detractor'). They are notorious for building strawmans.

We are not claiming that "AA77", N644AA did not depart IAD on Sept 11. There are many reports "AA77" departed IAD on 9/11. See Footnote 7 from the original article.

What we are arguing is that the data does not belong to "AA77" nor N644AA while providing the evidence. The data we have analyzed, did not come from AA77, nor an American Airlines 757 aircraft following Standard Operating Procedures, nor an aircraft which pushed from gate D26, nor does the data support an impact at the Pentagon.


If we wish to find out what happened to AA77, we need the data for the aircraft which is reported to have pushed from Gate D26 and track that flight. The data we have which has been provided by the NTSB did not push from Gate D26 after the lat/long error is adjusted, furthermore, the evidence shows that the data is not from an American Airlines aircraft.

Please ask the detractors when they will get some evidence linking the data and/or aircraft parts to N644AA, or any evidence for any of their arguments. Or perhaps at least one pilot willing to put their name to the claim that they would depart with a lat/long error of 3000+ feet. So far, they fail on all accounts.

[mrmitosis]

What we are arguing is that the data does not belong to "AA77" nor N644AA while providing the evidence. The data we have analyzed, did not come from AA77, nor an American Airlines 757 aircraft following Standard Operating Procedures, nor an aircraft which pushed from gate D26, nor does the data support an impact at the Pentagon.

Right. So any witnesses who claim to have evidence that either AA77 or N644AA were at IAD on 9/11 are effectively worthless in terms of corroborating the official story until the data itself can be linked to those aircraft IDs.

Thanks (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/salute.gif)

[dMz]

So in the Dulles arrangement, each gate is separated by about .1 minute. Somewhere is written the number of feet between each gate position.

3000 feet would require a pretty large entry error, assuming that's all it was.

But it wasn't a data entry error, it was sheer fraud by the government.

From the IAD Concourse D map linked above, the spacing of the gates appears to vary, but using GoogleEarth to measure from D26 to the jetway just east of it I get approx. 220 feet:

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/92826

gate D26 coordinate/location image:
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/92825

Of course it is worth pointing out that the jetways (or jet bridges) look pretty 'mobile' to me- is that Jeppesen chart at Rob's post #66 referencing the locking steel gate door location(s) proper, or out at the end of the jetway 'booms,' or at the 'typical' plane cockpit parking spots, or _______?

Here is some useful information for the approximate relevant Dulles IAD locations in question, per GoogleEarth:

IAD Gate D26 [approximately at the steel gate door proper]
38.945303° -77.454283° or
38°56'43.09"N 77°27'15.42"W
http://www.ifly.com/washington-dulles-inte...IAD-Concourse-D
http://www.ifly.com/washington-dulles-inte...rt/terminal-map
http://www.navmonster.com/apt/KIAD
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/1102/05100AD.PDF

IAD tower
38.939048° -77.448643° or
38°56'20.58"N 77°26'55.29"W

Now just to clarify (since I'm getting here late to the 'party')- what lat/lon is W. Stutt/Legge [or maybe the Farmer] using for the 'departure gate' and I'm assuming this is all from the recent W. Stutt decoder program? I've seen indications that Stutt's lat/lon data does NOT match the NTSB-released .CSV 'takeoff' coordinates AT ALL (since that is somewhere westward over in Chantilly, VA IIRC)- but which version of Warren's output file data are we talking about here? I know there were several versions of Warren's program released over nearly 2 years as I recall, but I've been 'out of the loop' for quite a while, so it is probably good to specify which data set is being discussed on this thread.

Once I know what lat/lon data value(s) that Stutt/Legge [et. al.?] are claiming at which time/counter index for the "AA77" 'departure gate,' this is about the best distance calculator that I have found online for verification purposes:

http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm

And you pilot types actually prefer that Babylonian degree minute [second] thing over decimal degrees then? Really? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[I couldn't wait to reset the units on my GoogleEarth back to decimal when I took those screenshots!]

[rob balsamo]

Now just to clarify (since I'm getting here late to the 'party')-

It all started here....
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795490

Read through the rest of that thread...

Which then lead to this article here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21142

and then a few days later lead to this article...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21149

tume's analysis started with using the legge/stutt coordinates, but all of the above articles are based on the work of 'Undertow' and RO2. I don't trust anything which comes out of the Legge/Stutt camp considering almost everything they've done they have gotten wrong. I understand however that the lat/long from Legge/Stutt are close to RO2, but apparently a bit fudged to their bias.

Either way, when one attempts to adjust the initial 3000+ error and line up the lat/long plot to D26, the rest of the lat/long plot does not line up with the taxiways and runway.

See here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD_Adjust_D26.jpg

IAD tower
38.939048° -77.448643° or
38°56'20.58"N 77°26'55.29"W

Not sure if that is the new or old tower, didnt bother to plot it. But a new tower was built in 2005/6 and is much further south than the old. The old tower was/is just south of (on top of... basically)... the Main Terminal.

Click here for the Airport diagram which reflects how the airport was in 2001, before the new runway and new tower.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795900

[dMz]

Not sure if that is the new or old tower, didnt bother to plot it. But a new tower was built in 2005/6 and is much further south than the old. The old tower was/is just south of (on top of... basically)... the Main Terminal.

Click here for the Airport diagram which reflects how the airport was in 2001, before the new runway and new tower.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795900

That was the newer IAD tower, which appears to be much taller than the old one and the new tower makes ONE HELL of a 'sundial!' (That's how I located it- using its enormous shadow).

Let's try this for the older IAD tower approximate location (over the Main Terminal, and it looked to still be there in the August 2010 GoogleEarth image data):

Imagery Date: 4/1/2002
38.952002° -77.447792° or
38° 57.120'N 77° 26.868'W or

38°57'7.20"N 77°26'52.08"W or
UTM Zone: 18 S Easting: 287883.90 m E Northing: 4314299.48 m N

[rob balsamo]

and it looked to still be there in the August 2010 GoogleEarth image data):

Yeah... its still there... and from what i understand, will remain for nostalgia reasons. The old tower is a prominent fixture of the IAD Skyline and architecture. It would be sad to see it go. Not sure if it's serving any functional purpose at present, will have to ask around... but i did hear they will not demo the old tower.

[tnemelckram]

Simply outstanding!

It all started here....
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795490

Read through the rest of that thread...

Which then lead to this article here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21142

and then a few days later lead to this article...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21149

Deserves iteration - simply outstanding!!!

[dMz]

Yeah... its still there... and from what i understand, will remain for nostalgia reasons. The old tower is a prominent fixture of the IAD Skyline and architecture. It would be sad to see it go. Not sure if it's serving any functional purpose at present, will have to ask around... but i did hear they will not demo the old tower.

[off topic] Is it just me, or would that be a PHENOMENAL place to put a pub/restaurant after some remodeling? Or would it be too 'Seattle' for VA? Or have I just spent toooo much time waiting in airport bars over the years? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[feel free to move/delete if this interferes with the topic too much]

[tumetuestumefais...]

Now just to clarify (since I'm getting here late to the 'party')- what lat/lon is W. Stutt/Legge [or maybe the Farmer] using for the 'departure gate' and I'm assuming this is all from the recent W. Stutt decoder program? I've seen indications that Stutt's lat/lon data does NOT match the NTSB-released .CSV 'takeoff' coordinates AT ALL (since that is somewhere westward over in Chantilly, VA IIRC)- but which version of Warren's output file data are we talking about here? I know there were several versions of Warren's program released over nearly 2 years as I recall, but I've been 'out of the loop' for quite a while, so it is probably good to specify which data set is being discussed on this thread.

I've started with the Mr. Stutt position data he sent to me recently, first with the landing - which showed not be the right approach to the problem, because the plane was most probably towed while engines were shut and the FDR didn't recorded anything - my thread here. But then when I've found the discrepancy I went back to the Undertow's FDR data to check it. Rob meanwhile found the pictures based on Undertow's data and started this thread. I made here overlay picture then. The pathway pattern is based on Undertow's, not Wstutt data. But pathway patterns from both come out the very simmilar in fact. There's just the different coordinate shift. The sets differ like ~400 meters, both out of runway. We would need Undertow to ask how exactly the Lat/Lon are derived from the FDR and find out how is it possible that they come to different coordinate results. There's also the slight coordinate jump (in the red circle) when the plane is at the runway threeshold and according to the heading data doesn't move at all - which my friend pilot suggest could be the place where the pilots entered the coordinate update waiting for T/O clearance - this would then suggest the coordinates were shifted after the fact - but I really don't know, it's just a speculation, we first must find out why the coordinates of Mr. Stutt are different from the coordinates derived by NTSB and Undertow. If they differ so much there can be problem in the method how the coordinates are derived from the FDR - although (Note: I didn't check it) if Mr. Farmer found the convergence of the coordinates with the radar track, it would rather suggest inflight autoallign - as Mr. Farmer suggests - (+ the GPS ON parameter in the FDR) and so rule out the N644AA.

This post has been edited by tumetuestumefaisdubien: Mar 11 2011, 12:42 PM

[tumetuestumefais...]

I understand however that the lat/long from Legge/Stutt are close to RO2, but apparently a bit fudged to their bias.

To be honest to me look the coordinates of Mr. Stutt. more north than the Undertow's coordinates -like 268 meters and also more west like 333 meters - to me it doesn't look like it supports their bias towards the conclusion "FDR data support the AA77 crash to Pentagon".

[paranoia]

since we are on the topic of:

a- dulles airport
b- american airlines
c- 9/11

-i'd like to include a footnote about one of the alleged victims of that day:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/mjbooth.htm

Saturday, September 15, 2001

Mary Jane Booth, 64, was known to almost everyone who worked at Dulles International Airport.

She had worked for American Airlines for 45 years and was secretary to American's general manager at Dulles for more than three decades, arriving just a few years after the airport opened. There were few things about the place or its people that she didn't know.

"At this airport, she was a mother to everyone," said Dennis Hazell, the latest who had come to think of himself as "her" general manager.

On Tuesday, Booth boarded her airline's Flight 77, en route to a Las Vegas meeting of the employees' credit union. As word spread that she was aboard the plane that hit the Pentagon, hotels, flower shops and other businesses with which she had dealt began sending condolences to her boss.

Everyone called her MJ, said Jackie Lewis, her counterpart at Northwest Airlines -- except at the annual American Airlines holiday party, when she dressed the part and everyone called her Mrs. Santa Claus.

"She was the friendly glue that kept everybody together," airport manager (airforce major general) Keith Meurlin ( bio link1 link2 ) said. "She'd take you under her wing and teach you the airline business. If there was a tough decision, it was not uncommon for me to pick up the phone and ask what impact it would have on her operation. At Dulles, everybody knew her."

Booth spent most of her life in Northern Virginia, growing up in Arlington and settling in Falls Church.

She was widowed two years ago and had no children.

Her sister, Nancy Kimbell, lives in Dallas, and she also is survived by a niece, Kendra, and a nephew, Keith.


***

Mary Jane was a devoted daughter, wife, sister, and aunt. She was full of life and enjoyed each day helping others.

Mary Jane Booth, 64, was a lifelong resident of Northern Virginia, growing up in Arlington and settling in Falls Church. She had worked for American Airlines for 45 years and was secretary to American's general manager at Dulles International Airport for more than three decades, arriving shortly after the airport opened. She was known by almost everyone who worked at Dulles, and there were few things about the airport or its people that she didn't know. "She was the friendly glue that kept everyone together," airport manager, Keith Meurlin said. "She'd take you under her wing and teach you the airline business."

"At this airport, she was a mother to everyone," said Dennis Hazell, the latest who had come to think of himself as "her" general manager. She was fondly called "M.J." except at the annual American Airlines holiday party, when she dressed the part and everyone called her Mrs. Santa Claus.

On September 11, M.J. boarded her airline's Flight 77, en route to a Las Vegas meeting of the employees' credit union. As word spread that she was aboard the plane that hit the Pentagon, hotels, flower shops, and other businesses with which she had dealt, began sending condolences.

Mary Jane had lost her husband, Jim, some 18 months before September 11. They had no children, but she loved her yellow Labrador retriever, Addie, as if she were one. She spent many hours exercising, gardening and cooking, and enjoyed the love and fellowship of her family and many friends.

so her boss at the time, and general manager for american airlines at dulles was Dennis Hazell. since no one else is providing answers, maybe someone can give him a call and see what he is willing to share about that day? things like gates and manifests should have fallen under his jurisidiction if not directly his responsibilities/duties, right?


also, maybe someone (here at the forum) familiar with airport operations can elaborate expertly on the things mrs.booth could or would have been privy to specifically with regard to boarding gates or boarding in general, and specifically for american airlines. to a layman like me - based on her title and the descriptions attributed to her as "all knowing" at dulles - i would say that its probable she would have to have either been complicit (doubtful), or high on the list of liabilities / obstacles requiring containment or neutralization (more likely the case since she has disappeared).