Airspace - Scene From 9/11: Intercepted Rating Options

[rob balsamo]

When discussing airspace surrounding Washington DC, most focus on the prohibited airspace surrounding the Capitol Building and the White House. We need to look further out...

AIRSPACE - Scene from 9/11: INTERCEPTED

[tnemelckram]

Hi Rob!

I really appreciate your posting of this video segment.

A couple of months ago on some other threads I posted my doubts about whether the Pentagon could have a hair trigger air defense system given that it lies under the clusterfuck of commercial aviation that flies low over it every minute due to the landing or take off patterns at DCA. Basically you advised me to hold my horses and await this video for an explanation, while Aldo posted a tantalizing picture of some self contained mobile anti-air missile system that looked like a Patriot battery (although I know the patriot is anti short range ballistic missile, not anti air, that made the picture all the more interesting.

Well, your video segment is a full and satisfactory explanation of how my earlier view was uninformed.

My earlier opinion was based on the system being "hair trigger". In other words, there would not be enough time to evaluate the situation and have enough time to responsibly determine whether some plane within say a minute or so of the Pentagon was an innocuous but maybe disabled or uncommunicative commercial plane as opposed to a threat. In these circumstances, a hair trigger based system would be irresponsible.

But your video segment illustrating how the Class Bravo airspace expands the radius for decision to 30 miles or more clearly illustrates a missile defense system that is backed by adequate decision time, and that is also based on rational criteria for identifying threats and sorting threats out from innocuous civil or commercial aviation errors. Quite simply, if a plane entering Class Bravo 30 or so miles out was not flashing the expected IFF using the transponder system, then at that point it was considered a potential threat and target. There was adequate warning time to monitor it separate from the other traffic, which offered a reasonable time to either correct the IFF error or radio what the problem was, and in the meantime divert itself from entering Class Bravo. The significance of this was assuredly well known to legitimate commercial aviation pilots, who, still being in control of where to fly the plane, would simply turn away from Class Bravo instead of entering it, find a way to communicate an explanation of their IFF or other communication failure, or failing that because say all communications including radio were disabled, try to land at some remote and less sensitive airfield such as Hagerstown, so the likely result would be "no harm, no foul". A malintended and uncommunicative plane, in the other hand, would not turn away from its mission directed toward the sensitive DC Metro area..

EDIT TO ADD: But I do have a question. DO the Class Bravo rules only apply to commercial flights that commonly display Secondary Radar Transponder data, or does it also include civil aviation, in particular the large number of small private planes with flight plans but no unique air traffic that or transponder ID that one could normally expect within Class Bravo at any time?

This post has been edited by tnemelckram: Mar 26 2011, 11:31 PM

[rob balsamo]

EDIT TO ADD: But I do have a question. DO the Class Bravo rules only apply to commercial flights that commonly display Secondary Radar Transponder data, or does it also include civil aviation, in particular the large number of small private planes with flight plans but no unique air traffic that or transponder ID that one could normally expect within Class Bravo at any time?

The only objects that can enter Class Bravo without a clearance, two-way radio comms and a working Mode C Transponder, are birds.

So, yes, the airspace applies to all aircraft.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

(2) For all operations. An operable two-way radio capable of communications with ATC on appropriate frequencies for that Class B airspace area.

(d) Other equipment requirements. No person may operate an aircraft in a Class B airspace area unless the aircraft is equipped with—

(1) The applicable operating transponder and automatic altitude reporting equipment specified in §91.215 (a)...

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...0.1.3.10.2.4.19

emphasis mine.

[tnemelckram]

Thanks Rob! Real clear and yet another complete and convincing explanation!

[rob balsamo]

Thanks Rob! Real clear and yet another complete and convincing explanation!

You're welcome.

Keep in mind that Class B also has a "30 mile Mode C Veil" surrounding the actual airspace. So an aircraft cannot even get near the actual airspace unless they have a working Mode C Transponder. The reason for this is that it alerts the ATC Facility that an aircraft is getting ready to penetrate Class Bravo, so they should keep an eye on it.

Now the argument could be made that, for example, the poor student pilot gets lost and could be shot down if he inadvertently penetrated Class Bravo.

Well, considering NY Class Bravo was penetrated not once, but twice, without clearance, two way radio comm and Transponder (in the case of "Aa11"), which happened more than an hour prior to the attack on the Pentagon, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever an unidentified target should have gotten anywhere close to the DC area, especially when all ATC Centers were advised to keep their eyes open for suspicious aircraft.

Langley fighters were ordered to launch at 0908 and then the order was changed to "battlestations" (sitting in the cockpit and ready to go). If they launched at 0908, and DC Tracon was alerted, that aircraft penetrating DC Class Bravo would have been intercepted well before penetrating the airspace from the west, interrogated, and followed, and subsequently shot down.

The Interceptors were intercepted.

[amazed!]

The interceptors were manipulated.

[Johnny Angel]

Norman Penetta testimony.. Dick Cheny was fully aware that an UN-Authorized Aircraft was approaching WDC.

Do the Orders still Stand..?? ""Have I told you Otherwise"".

The two WTC bldgs had already been struck.. Surely the most powerful Military force on Earth would be on Alert.

[richard cranium]

Norman Penetta testimony.. Dick Cheny was fully aware that an UN-Authorized Aircraft was approaching WDC.

Do the Orders still Stand..?? ""Have I told you Otherwise"".

The two WTC bldgs had already been struck.. Surely the most powerful Military force on Earth would be on Alert.

Yes, most definitely.

And, well said.... "Surely the most powerful Military force on Earth would be on Alert".

Suerly they would.

rc

[amazed!]

...would be on alert, except it was distracted (on purpose) by Vigilant Guardian.

[bobcat46]

Distracted my ass..........they were ordered to stand down.....by leaders of our country at the highest level.......

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cleanup.gif)

[DoYouEverWonder]

Distracted my ass..........they were ordered to stand down.....by leaders of our country at the highest level.......

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cleanup.gif)

More like, they didn't bother to stand up.

On 9/11 – Everyone watched the attack on TV

[Maha Mantra]

Maybe just like they had Rummy out there helping clear deris, they had upgraded the defense system to having Rummy out there with a stinger missile launcher, and he was incapacitated from doing that just like answering the phone from the FAA during the whole scenario.
No one got demoted or punished. No one was to blame. Everybody got promoted. The blame was shifted to Saddam. Somehow as terrible as it was, it served an agenda liked by someone.

They forgot to tell us that the trade towers were hit by scud missiles loaded with nano-thermate and that's how Saddam was implicated. I guess they could have, judging by the response from the American people.

And it all ends with a 'burial at sea' of Osama with no pictures of the body, under a new President with a forged Birth Certificate.

Do the editors of 'National Enquirer' write American history ?

[rob balsamo]

I've had some questions on this topic, so I'm bumping it for those interested.