Our Declaration Of Independence; Constitution; And Bill Of Rights, General Discussion of these documents and their "relevance" to Options

[IslandPilot]

I have started this topic in response to "tume's" post in another Forum about TSA Groping of a 6 Year old girl.
Our "original discussion" begins here: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10797465
I responded with: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10797474
Tume's post from: here is quoted as follows: (the "quotes" in white boxes are mine, tume's comments are in the "regular text"... and my "response" will follow in the next post)

QUOTE (IslandPilot @ Apr 14 2011, 02:33 PM)
Tume: I would say your "legal interpretation" is entirely consistent with what I learned about US History, US Government, Our Constitution, and our Legal System from 7th Grade through High School... that would have been from 1959 to 1964. But many things seem to have "changed" since then.

To me from the distance in Europe as I study it, it still looks like the written law and pertinent precedents are in place and active. The US Congress has no power to change the Constitution. Fortunately. What I think looks to me changed is the approach, acceptation, attitude to it, total lack of enforcement face to the military junta which apparently governs the USA since I was still unborn.
Yesterday I was watching the movie War Made Easy and what was there especially disgusting for me was a citation from LBJ speech where he was apparently seriously talking about that they "...fight for selfdetermination, for the right of the Vietnamese to choose their own course, free election, without violence, without terror and without fear..." Yeah, the napalmed and agent oranged children, they surely agree. Now they grop the american children and to me it still looks like a result of the complete lack of the law enforcement facing the military junta governing USA. To me it looks being just matter of time until the Americans are killed on American soil by themTM en masse as the OKC or 9/11 was a teaser for. They still prefer to send them to be killed abroad, together with the masses of civilians there. But the inevitable economic decline the imperial politics brings together with the obsoleteness of the infrastructure can soon make it impossible to wage the wars abroad.

QUOTE
The current "crop" of our Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Agency personnel have been very good at "twisting" the "meanings" of the US Constitution... and "revising" our "laws" and "legal system", so it no longer RESEMBLES anything I was taught back in the 1960s.

Our "Declaration of Independence" and "Bill of Rights" today seem to be "nothing" more than "interesting" historical documents. The way that the the "US EMPIRE" acts today; is NO DIFFERENT than the BRITISH EMPIRE acted 225 years ago... which is why Our Forefathers Revolted against it, in the first place.

Sorry, but I think it should be repeated over and over. There still is written in the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. (just a legal note: The Declaration of Independence is the law which constitutes United States as the legal entity. The Constitution of the United States just says what are the constitution-government rules of such entity-union of States. That's why you celebrate the 4th July, not September 17th. If the Declaration of Independence would be abolished it would mean the United States no longer exist in the legal sense and under the law of land it would most probably in legal sense become partly possesion of the United Kingdom, Kingdom of Spain, Russian Federation, Republic of France, Kingdom of Havaii and Republic of Texas and Indians. (If I've forget something I appologize to the pertinent parties) Who knows if it wouldn't be better if the Americans themselves aren't able to enforce even the Declaration and Constitution..)

there is also still written in the 14th amendment sec. 3:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
to my knowledge it was never abolished.

What if the majority in the US Congress is already uneligible due to the 14th Amendment sec. 3. because they have given aid and comfort to the enemies of the Constitution of the United States? Can they vote themselves back? Nope. They would need two thirds in each House of the ones who still are eligible... The same for the executive and judicial branch... looks like a judicial Convention would be only peaceful mean left to solve the situation - if only also the State legislative bodies weren't corrupted mostly the same way as the federal government.

QUOTE
We are no longer a "Nation of Laws"; in which the Government derives its POWER from the PEOPLE; so if our "Government" doesn't "FEEL" like complying with the LAW.... they WON'T.

It very much looks like the infamous democracy. But not the modern one, the ancient greek one - where a tiny "aristocracy" was voting what they wanted and the rest were slaves. Even the ancient roman empire looks better, they at least weren't so dangerous for the rest of the world not having the nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers and who knows what else...

Back to the topic - I think it would be perfectly legal to bring Pistole, Napolitano, Chertoff & comp. to the Grand Jury to answer in capital process. Better sooner than later.

[IslandPilot]

I got tired before I got a chance to respond to tume's thoughts... so I'll do it now. I'm glad to see the extra participation, thanks.

tume is quite a scholar, and has studied many things. I appreciate his written "accent", and wish that I could write a "second language" as well as he. Tume's statements are basically unchanged in the following section... my comments are indented and italicized... to make it easier to follow... I hope.

To me from the distance in Europe as I study it, it still looks like the written law and pertinent precedents are in place and active. The US Congress has no power to change the Constitution.

>>>> The US Congress CAN change the Constitution by "Ammending" it. They haven't done this very often... 27 times since 1789. The first 10 Ammendments are known as the "Bill of Rights". They were added to the Constitution in 1791. The US Constitution, including the Bill of Rights is supposed to be the "Supreme Law of the Land".

Fortunately. What I think looks to me changed is the approach, acceptation, attitude to it, total lack of enforcement face to the military junta which apparently governs the USA since I was still unborn.
Yesterday I was watching the movie War Made Easy and what was there especially disgusting for me was a citation from LBJ speech where he was apparently seriously talking about that they "...fight for selfdetermination, for the right of the Vietnamese to choose their own course, free election, without violence, without terror and without fear..." Yeah, the napalmed and agent oranged children, they surely agree.

>>>> Your observations about "enforcement" and "military junta" very sadly seems to be correct. I agree with your statements about LBJ and the illegal "Vietnam War", and I still cannot tell you "why" it happened, or "what" it was for... but some Corporations made a LOT of MONEY as a result.

Now they grop the american children and to me it still looks like a result of the complete lack of the law enforcement facing the military junta governing USA. To me it looks being just matter of time until the Americans are killed on American soil by themTM en masse as the OKC or 9/11 was a teaser for. They still prefer to send them to be killed abroad, together with the masses of civilians there. But the inevitable economic decline the imperial politics brings together with the obsoleteness of the infrastructure can soon make it impossible to wage the wars abroad.

>>>>> Exactly as you say... What "other results" can we expect, if nothing is done to change our current path. Our future is very dark. If only 50% of our citizens could see these things as clearly as you, and recognize how important this is... we would have a "chance". But, already they are either too "drugged up" or "dumbed down" by Media Propaganda and 9/11 "special effects"... to know, or to care.

Sorry, but I think it should be repeated over and over. There still is written in the Declaration of Independence:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

>>>> I too, agree great words and high ideals should be repeated.

(just a legal note: The Declaration of Independence is the law which constitutes United States as the legal entity. The Constitution of the United States just says what are the constitution-government rules of such entity-union of States. That's why you celebrate the 4th July, not September 17th.

>>>> tume: your "legal note" here is "incorrect"... allow me to explain... in "average citizen layman terms": The "Declaration of Independence" is not a "LAW"; and was never intended to become a LAW.
It is a statement adopted by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, which announced that the thirteen American colonies then at war with Great Britain were now independent states, and thus no longer a part of the British Empire. In June and July of 1776 delegates from the 13 Colonies met in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to discuss and "vote" on "declaring their Independence" from Great Britian. The document was "effectively" signed on July 4, 1776... and sent to King George... to OFFICIALLY state our INTENTIONS and REASONS for SEVERING all ties to ENGLAND. This is why July 4th is celebrated as our "Nation's Birthday". The "signers" of the Declaration were very BRAVE men as they were, basically, signing their own "death warrants"... if they were captured by the British. They and their families paid a high price for our Independence.

If the Declaration of Independence would be abolished it would mean the United States no longer exist in the legal sense and under the law of land it would most probably in legal sense become partly possesion of the United Kingdom, Kingdom of Spain, Russian Federation, Republic of France, Kingdom of Havaii and Republic of Texas and Indians.

>>>> You raise some interesting points here... which are subject to arguement...
1) Before the DOI was accomplished, many delegates in the Continential Congress were still "hoping" to "negotiate" a "peaceful" settlement with King George, to mitigate their differences. Yet all these efforts resulted in even greater abuses by King George and his "Parliment". Also the American Revolution would not be successful against the greater resources of the British Empire in terms of weapons, ships, supplies, soldiers, sailors, and finances... At the time the DOI was being signed, British Ships were entering New York Harbor filled with German Mercenaries to fight against our "Yankee Doodle Dandys".
Our forefathers could not expect ANY HELP or "assistance" from Spain or FRANCE, without making such a SERIOUS and "CLEAR CUT" Declaration of Independence to SEVER ALL TIES to the British Empire. Until the colonists were willing to RISK THEIR VERY LIVES to cast off the British Rule; why should any other Nation get involved in an "internal civil" insurgency? What would they have to gain, if Britian regained Control of their Colonies?.... Absolutely NOTHING!... and they would have MUCH TO LOSE.
Note:
This is why it makes me angry when the US Empire enters into several wars to "help oppressed citizens of a Country to overthrow its Leadership to establish a "more Democratic Nation". WHY should we do this, when NONE of these "citizens" have ever been able to get enough of their SHIT TOGETHER; or have the "BALLS" to even "COPY" our "Declaration of Independence" to send it to their "dictator". Did you ever see a "Declaration of Independence" from the people of South Korea? South Vietnam? Kuwait? Iraq? Iran? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Egypt? and now LIBYA? HELL NO! So why in HELL do we squander LIVES and Precious Resources if the "people" we are supposedly "helping" topple their dictator aren't even willing to RISK signing their names to a piece of paper, like the DOI! To HELL with that BS!

2) Initially, the "Declaration of Independence" was a "minor" official notification to King George... and was "ignored" for a period of time after it was signed. When our Revolution was successful, the Continential Congress met and formed a Constitutional Convention to Draft the US Constitution, to describe the FORM and STRUCTURE for the GOVERNMENT of our NEW SOVIERGN NATION. This SIMPLE document EXPLAINS the DUTIES and RESPONSIBILITIES and LIMITATIONS for THREE SEPARATE BRANCHES for our "REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC" (NOT A "DEMOCRACY"). It describes a "system" of "checks and balances" between the Three branches of Government. The "Constitution" established the Government of our Nation, which really couldn't "operate" as an "Individual Soverign Nation" until it was "ratified" and signed by the delegates of the 13 STATES, of the United States of America, which happened in 1789.

I am placing the "Preamble" to the Constitution here to help "explain" its purpose:
I still LOVE how it starts out: WE THE PEOPLE.... PEOPLE LIKE ME... DAMN IT!

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Now that's what our Constitution is supposed to be! Period! I couldn't have said it better myself.

(If I've forget something I appologize to the pertinent parties) Who knows if it wouldn't be better if the Americans themselves aren't able to enforce even the Declaration and Constitution..)

>>>> The Declaration of Independence was "enforced" when we (initially?) kicked every last remnant of the BRITISH EMPIRE outta here! That's a Done Deal... (except for the "elite banksters" and our "english" court system; maybe??)
The American People "should" be able to "enforce" their Constitution... but it may already be too late.

there is also still written in the 14th amendment sec. 3:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
to my knowledge it was never abolished.

What if the majority in the US Congress is already uneligible due to the 14th Amendment sec. 3. because they have given aid and comfort to the enemies of the Constitution of the United States? Can they vote themselves back? Nope. They would need two thirds in each House of the ones who still are eligible... The same for the executive and judicial branch... looks like a judicial Convention would be only peaceful mean left to solve the situation - if only also the State legislative bodies weren't corrupted mostly the same way as the federal government.

>>>>> MMMM Very Interesting.... Every single member of Congress, (535 of them at last count)... is "sworn in" and takes the following OATH:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

I think maybe only a half-dozen or so "members of congress" have not violated that oath in several ways... by "allowing illegal TSA searches".... "illegal wars".... illegal Torture.... and GITMO prison camp... for a few examples....

It very much looks like the infamous democracy. But not the modern one, the ancient greek one - where a tiny "aristocracy" was voting what they wanted and the rest were slaves. Even the ancient roman empire looks better, they at least weren't so dangerous for the rest of the world not having the nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers and who knows what else...

>>>> That is a very GOOD and Correct observation I am afraid to say...

Back to the topic - I think it would be perfectly legal to bring Pistole, Napolitano, Chertoff & comp. to the Grand Jury to answer in capital process. Better sooner than later.

>>>>> Of course it would be "legal"... but it will NEVER HAPPEN... because the present Judicial system is filled with "appointees" made by the "Executive" powers... Just look at poor April Gallop and her 911 Pentagon case against Cheney and Rumsfeld.... she goes into Federal Court to face George Bush's Cousin as a Judge to decide her case... who isn't ETHICAL enough to "disqualify" himself... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

I hope my extra info was at least a little helpful.... for now.... that's the basic "7th Grade" version... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/salute.gif)