It's A Long Way To Tiperrary Options

[albertchampion]

over the last two nights, i have been watching DAS BOOT.

a wonderful film. that provokes so many questions.

specifically, why did a uboat filled with individuals less than nazis decide to continue to support that regime?

why didn't they just run down the jolly roger and surrender?

what is it that caused individuals less than enthused with the nazi regime to put their lives on the line for that regime?

and why is it that the same phenomenon continues in this country?

[Skeptik]

over the last two nights, i have been watching DAS BOOT.

a wonderful film. that provokes so many questions.

specifically, why did a uboat filled with individuals less than nazis decide to continue to support that regime?

why didn't they just run down the jolly roger and surrender?

what is it that caused individuals less than enthused with the nazi regime to put their lives on the line for that regime?

and why is it that the same phenomenon continues in this country?

Albert, I saw this film several years ago, and agree that it is a very good film. It is strange that seemingly ordinary men appear to support a regime with which they would normally disagree, and I think it usually stems from the misplaced Nationalism that most people feel for their country. We are all guilty of the same feelings but as we get older most of us seem to realize that it is not our country right or wrong, but our country ONLY when it does right. That's why most people now do not accept everything they are told by the MSM and prefer to investigate themselves. Thank goodness for the Internet.

[amazed!]

It continues today Albert because it is part of the human condition, some more than others, and there are some humans who understand how to manipulate others.

[IslandPilot]

DAS BOOT is "only" a movie.

It is the Supreme Granddaddy of ALL Submarine movies!
It is better than UP PERISCOPE, RED OCTOBER, and my personal favorite; RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP.

It is also the LONGEST and MOST DEPRESSING Submarine movie ever made... and they didn't miss a "thing" as far as "Submarine Movie Sthick" goes. It had "everything" in it... depth charge attack... sitting quietly on the bottom below its max diving depth, for hours and hours.

It was "different" because it was about a German Submarine... therefore it wasn't a HOLLYWOOD flick, (I don't think). It was pretty "realistic", made even more so by the German language with English subtitles...

I saw DAS BOOT a long time ago, when it first came out, with my former wife on a cold winter's night. I had to watch it to see how it "turned out".... duh?? (probably just another "reason" she's my ex-wife today)

I've been a Submarine "freak" for quite some time, and read just about every submarine book there is... starting with "Nautilus 90 North" back in the 60s.

The BEST REAL Submarine Movie is at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. It shows the capture of the U-505 during WWII... and the entire German Submarine is on display there... and you can walk through it, without leaving the building. It really gives you a "sense" or "feeling" for the brave men who "lived" on those things.

check it out:
http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U505

In some respects the U-505 was more "homey", and user friendly, than US Submarines at that time. It featured quite a bit WOOD and patterned cloth in the interior...

[IslandPilot]

why didn't they just run down the jolly roger and surrender?

what is it that caused individuals less than enthused with the nazi regime to put their lives on the line for that regime?

Sometimes, they DID SURRENDER! Before I provide an example... let's examine U-Boat history.

When Germany began building Submarines, "Kaiser Wilhlem" was opposed to Submarine Warfare... because they didn't give the enemy a "fighting chance". (like deer hunters are supposed to give their "game" a "sporting chance"?... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif) He felt it was "immoral" and "barbaric", to sink an enemy ship and kill ALL of the people on board, without "rescuing" survivors... (or taking prisoners).

Submarine warfare made WAR just that much MORE INHUMANE... and BARBARIC. PEOPLE no longer mattered; and it became "acceptable" to murder hundreds and/or thousands of people, to obtain some "minor" military objective... (What military objective was achieved by the bombing of Nagesaki, after Hiroshima had already been bombed? How many people were killed for the purpose of this bomb "test"?)

Submarines were one of the first Weapons of Mass Destruction... Until Hiroshima, no other war machine could kill as many people at one time, as a Submarine. (with the exception of a few shells from the BISMARK, that sent the unprotected Battleship "BOMB" called the HMS HOOD, and its crew, to the bottom in MINUTES.)

Merchant ships supplying war material to your enemy, and their "escorts" were "fair game" for submarines... Until "someone" decided to put its "mass destruction" capability to use... in the False Flag "Sinking of the Lusitania", which killed hundreds of civilians. It WORKED better than the 911 Attacks, in acheiving its goal of SUCKING us into WWII. The difference between the Lusitania and 911, is that most people never "questioned" the Lusitania sinking.

Because of the BARBARIC INHUMANE MASS MURDER of PEOPLE, by (alledgedly) German Submarines... The British and US Allies began to hunt, and KILL GERMAN SUBMARINES, with an unrestricted VENGENCE!

At the beginning of WWII, GERMAN SUBMARINES "ruled" the North Atlantic. Submarine Crews were the "elite" HEROs of German society when they returned home for new torpedos. Serving on a German Sub at the beginning of WWII was better than being a "Rock Star" or NFL Player is today.

These "GOOD" times came to an end, when long range "anti-submarine" aircraft, closed the "mid-Atlantic gap". Then things went from BAD to WORSE real fast.

If a submarine avoided detection, it became increasingly difficult to communicate with "headquarters", to receive supplies and fuel. All German Subs carried many "secrets", that the Allies were (supposedly) not aware of... The "Enigma" code machine for radio communications was one example... the "snorkel" for running underwater on diesel power, was another... the motor-generator system was yet another... (sub captains were completely unaware that the Enigma Code had been broken early in the War.)

To a German Sub captain, "SURRENDERING" was NOT REALLY AN OPTION! If he surrendered, he would most likely be tortured and/or killed... by ALLIED forces. And if he happened to survived that... the Gestapo, or SS, would be waiting to kill him. And if he survived as POW... how could he ever go home to "Germany" in "disgrace" like that?

The submarine crew has to be "loyal" to the "secrets" contained with the ship. Like the "Norden Bombsight", crewmembers had an "obligation" to protect these "secrets" with their LIVES. Even though EVERYONE might DISAGREE ENTIRELY with NAZI leadership, and favor the assasination of HITLER... they still couldn't SURRENDER the secrets on their ship... to do so, would have VERY NASTY CONSEQUENCES to their families and friends back in Germany.

When one assumes "command" of a ship (or aircraft), one also assumes the "responsibilities" that go with it. Every MAN who assumes command of a Submarine, and EVERY MAN who serves on it UNDERSTANDS their "responsibilities" as soon as they set foot on deck.

Back to the original question:

why didn't they just run down the jolly roger and surrender?
what is it that caused individuals less than enthused with the nazi regime to put their lives on the line for that regime?

That's precisely what Captain Hans Langsdorf did when he made the decision to "Scuttle" the German Pocket Battleship "GRAF SPEE" at the "Battle of the River Plate" on Dec 17, 1939...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Plate
Captain Langsdorf was from the "old school" German Navy. NO LIVES WERE LOST on any of the Merchant ships that he sank. When the GRAF SPEE became "trapped" in Montivideo it had only 16 hours of fuel left, and 20 minutes of big gun ammo, to "fight" its way out of there. There was no chance of getting back to Germany, or to another port where repairs could be made.

Ultimately, he chose to scuttle his ship in the River Plate estuary on 17 December, to avoid unnecessary loss of life for no particular military advantage, a decision that is said to have infuriated Adolf Hitler. The crew of Admiral Graf Spee was taken to Buenos Aires, Argentina, where Captain Langsdorff committed suicide on 19 December. He was buried there with full military honours, and several British officers who were present attended. Many of the crew members were reported to have moved to Montevideo with the help of local people of German origin.

His decision saved the lives of more than 1000 of his crewmen. It "bothered" him to expose so many 18 year old seamen to an almost certain death. He had seen enough of that already.

on October 6, 2007, a street in Ajax, Ontario was named after Captain Langsdorff, this despite protests by some Canadian veterans. Steve Parish, the mayor of Ajax, defended the decision, declaring that Langsdorff had not been a typical Nazi officer. An accompanying picture shows Langsdorff at the funeral of his crew members who were killed in the battle. He is saluting with a naval salute while people beside and behind him, even some clergymen, are giving the Fascist salute.

"You take the High Road; and I'll take the Low Road..." but, I guess that's really a different song...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/salute.gif)

[IslandPilot]

what is it that caused individuals less than enthused with the nazi regime to put their lives on the line for that regime?
and why is it that the same phenomenon continues in this country?

Albert... thought provoking is right.

If I look at your "rhetorical questions" as you may have intended... that is something like...

Why does our Military continue to put their lives on the line today, for a similar "facist" regime... and why do our citizens seem to be "going along with it"?

Those are EASY questions to answer. Even if they are aware of the "problems", and if they "disagree" with EVERYTHING that is happening... the military has two "good" reasons for "going along with it"...

Reason Number One: "We are only following orders." It's the same old Nazi "cop out", being "recycled" today for our benefit.

Reason Number Two: "We are ON THE SIDE THAT IS WINNING!" "We are IN CONTROL, and no one can STOP US!" We can do anything we (that they) want (us) to do! How can you "argue" with "success" and BUCK THE FLOW?

Jeezus! Just look how how murdering NAVY SEALS have been elevated to ROCK STAR status today... just like German Submarine Captains back in 1941... they are HEROS! Doesn't everybody just wanna be a NAVY SEAL? How many people do I have to KILL to become a member of that "elite" club? How insane is that?

I remember when being a "Boy Scout" or a "Christian" was kind of a "good thing"... and moral values like being "kind, loyal, honest, trustworthy, reverent, etc., were also "good" things.

But, it ain't like that no more! "It's DOG eat DOG, Kill or be Killed, and he who dies with the MOST MONEY WINS" kinda World out there today. And it SUCKS! IMO.

But, we only have the "ILLUSION" of WINNING to look at. The "illusion" of KILLING OSAMA is a prime example of FAKE WINNING! Wow! Everybody wants to be on the WINNING side, so let's all worship the Navy SEALS and the TSA GODS who are keeping us "SAFE" from the "illusion" of World Terrorism.

Which works as long as you don't pay any attention to what you are LOSING in the meantime... YOUR HOUSES, YOUR JOBS, YOUR SECURITY, YOUR FREEDOM, YOUR MONEY, YOUR HEALTH, YOUR RETIREMANT, YOUR HEALTH, YOUR ENVIRONMENT.....

"everything is OK, because we are on the side that is WINNING!"

and it'll be OK, just as long as we don't run out of any of the "stuff" to keep SMOKING and DRINKING, that makes us "feel" OK. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/toke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stars.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/partay.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/juggler.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/salute.gif)