Reno Air Race Crash, is the answer in this pic Options

[bill]

This is a photo of the P-51 just before the crash

anyone else notice something bad ?

(IMG:http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/09/17/alg_p-51-mustang-upside-down.jpg)

[paranoia]

im no pilot bill, but it looks to me like something is missing on that rear section of the plane.

***

btw, here is a slideshow of pics from the incident:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44560971/displ...=1/from/toolbar

note: im not suggesting the pics are fake, but those 2 closeups of the plane are SO clear, its hard to believe they were taken of a moving object.

video:

[paranoia]

update:
http://www.examiner.com/aviation-in-reno/l...rim-tab-trouble

(IMG:http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/af/e4/afe4d8e578dc02985a83e7d3297dacbd.jpg)

A photo posted by local news station KOLO-TV shows the left elevator trim tab of the clipwing Mustang half broken as it rolled inverted an instant before impacting the VIP box seats on the ramp at the NCAR, at Friday afternoons' Unlimited Class heat race.

No doubt this is to be considered a contributing factor in the crash that has now claimed five lives, according to reports from Renown hospital in Reno.

also: http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/Witne..._130022813.html

The death toll in the terrifying crash of a World War II-era plane during a Reno air race has risen to at least nine people, including the pilot and eight spectators, authorities said Saturday.

***

unrelated to the crash, check out this page for more about Leeward:
http://www2.leewardairranch.com/

[GroundPounder]

i find it hard to believe a broken trim tab is the cause...

[amazed!]

A separated trim tab at high speed and low altitude and steep bank would be a real problem

[GroundPounder]

A separated trim tab at high speed and low altitude and steep bank would be a real problem

you need to explain that to me. there's a pretty big difference between the area of the elevator compared to the trim tab....

the guy wasn't upside down 20 feet off the deck was he?

[rob balsamo]

To put this into perspective for you GP,

Imagine driving your car at 80 mph down a narrow road or highway. Slight pressure on your steering wheel adjusts your path. Now imagine you have a blow out on your right front tire and all that force it will take to keep the wheel straight and your car straight, you're in the weeds.

This is what it feels like if you lose a trim tab at high speed. 0 pounds of force on the yoke/stick (because it is trimmed) to perhaps 80 pounds (after losing your trim tab)... in an instant. If you dont have room to maneuver or a slow reaction time (this may be why they are looking into his age as well?), you're toast.

Godspeed Jimmy!

(and i agree paranoia, those pictures seem to be pretty sharp for an object moving at high speed.... i also find it odd that the Leeward Ranch website doesn't have a statement up as of yet)

[GroundPounder]

To put this into perspective for you GP,

Imagine driving your car at 80 mph down a narrow road or highway. Slight pressure on your steering wheel adjusts your path. Now imagine you have a blow out on your right front tire and all that force it will take to keep the wheel straight and your car straight, you're in the weeds.

This is what it feels like if you lose a trim tab at high speed. 0 pounds of force on the yoke/stick (because it is trimmed) to perhaps 80 pounds (after losing your trim tab)... in an instant. If you dont have room to maneuver or a slow reaction time (this may be why they are looking into his age as well?), you're toast.

Godspeed Jimmy!

(and i agree paranoia, those pictures seem to be pretty sharp for an object moving at high speed.... i also find it odd that the Leeward Ranch website doesn't have a statement up as of yet)

having flown only light planes years ago, i remember the trim...vaguely, and my ride in a t-38 only hands on enough to do some aileron rolls at altitude. still, if it's an air race in a 51 the guy could not have been a novice and i would imagine he had his hand on the stick fairly securely. i don't know, it is what it is i guess.

[Devilsadvocate]

(and i agree paranoia, those pictures seem to be pretty sharp for an object moving at high speed.... i also find it odd that the Leeward Ranch website doesn't have a statement up as of yet)

I did a course in photography (ages ago- can't remember half of it); but I think that effect is due to the cameras shutter-speed:
The planes propellor appears to be standing still as well. My guess would be that the picture was taken by a professional photographer (...one with a pretty good reaction-time and a camera going "click-click-click-click-click"!)

BTW- That Mustang looks as if it underwent some alterations? (Different canopy)
Was that done to make it more suitable for racing...?

[rob balsamo]

It's a Clipped wing P-51. It went through many modifications. The descriptions of the mods are on one of the websites linked above. The name of the P-51 is Galloping Ghost, so you can probably do a google search to find the mods as well.

[bill]

I remember Dave Morss descibing the loss of the trim tab in his Lancair at Reno

the G forces were so severe he was unable to regain control --- fortunately for him the trim failed nose up and as the plane slowed enough, he was able get contol and land



I have always wanted to go to Reno --- not so sure now

[paranoia]

(IMG:http://i54.tinypic.com/21j85.jpg)

im somewhat familiar with photography, so i do understand high shutter speed, but wow those are some amazing pics (must be an awesome camera). but the thing is, the pic on the right doesnt seem to jive with the attitude of the plane seen in the crash video - its too vertical.




some specifics about the plane:
http://www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/galloping-ghost-specs
http://www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/history/cleveland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Galloping_Ghost_airplane

google site-search:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sou...2093l1.6.5l12l0


eta:
http://www.warbirdimages.com/the-galloping-ghost

[Devilsadvocate]

Maybe they rotated the picture before posting it... But shouldn't the tailwheel be retracted?

[paranoia]

update - "'Extremely radical' modifications to plane in Nev. crash made it faster, but increased stress / Plane in NV crash had 'radical' changes to compete"

http://www.newser.com/article/d9pr77co0/ex...sed-stress.html

[Bruce Sinclair]

Just an example of what can happen if trim is disturbed:

I had a tape on the trailing edge of the elevator of a DC-3 lift (on the top side). Remember that the DC-3 has fabric covered elevators. So this 2" wide tape lifts and grabs the air - it pulled the control column right out of my hands! We diverted to Toronto International after regaining control and landed uneventfully. So if this dramatic pitch change can be caused by a 2" wide tape at 140 kts, can you imagine what can happen at 400 mph when the trim tab comes partially detached?

[Devilsadvocate]

update - "'Extremely radical' modifications to plane in Nev. crash made it faster, but increased stress / Plane in NV crash had 'radical' changes to compete"

...Including a different engine--- one that can burn jet-fuel, perhaps...?

Strangely, there was no explosion- but people reported that they got splashed by fuel which 'burned their skin'.

This one, on the other hand...

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/09/18/west....ia.plane.crash/

[amazed!]

DA

I too wondered about the extended tailwheel. I'm pretty sure on the stock airplane it retracts, and I can't imagine why one would want to leave it extended, especially in the racing business.

[Devilsadvocate]

I remember building a pretty neat model of a P-51 about 40 years ago; it had a mechanism for the landing-gear-- and the tailwheel definitly could be retracted, with two doors to close off the wheel-well.

Would an extended tailwheel help to push the tail towards the ground (considering that the plane was upside-down) and thus help to gain altitude?
Could the pilot have done that on purpose...?

I'm wondering what kind of engine that thing had.
My dad worked in a fuel-depot around the late fifties; since he had a motor-bike, one of his workmates told him of a tin underneath a leaking pipe: free Fuel!
He took the first tin he saw and filled his tank from it.

Evidently the bike went off like merry hell-- for a few hundred yards... Before blowing the cylinder-gasket.

Unfortunately, there had been more than one leaking pipe...
And this one turned out to be JP-4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pilotfly.gif)

He said that on closer examination that stuff was kind of oily like Diesel- but it evaporated faster than petrol.

Strange that there was no explosion or fire after that crash.

This post has been edited by Devilsadvocate: Sep 18 2011, 11:13 PM

[amazed!]

My guess is that the tailwheel should have been retracted, but it's possible there was a reason for it to be extended. Doesn't make sense to me, but the race crew might have had a reason for it.

I know on the old Beech 18 most of the tailwheels retracted, but I guess many thought it too much of a maintenance headache and just made it permanently extended. The increase in drag is minimal.

That P-51 probably had a highly modified V-12 of around 1710 cubic inches, water cooled. A variety of manufacturers made the engine, which I think was a British design.

[paranoia]