Wtc 7 And Sandero, NIST v speculation Options

[onesliceshort]

I've seen a lot of threads on the towers being discussed by SanderO on this forum. Lately WTC7 has been discussed. I'm not attacking this person, just his arguments.

First, what exactly did the NIST Report claim regarding WTC7? This is crucial as the NIST Report is the official report on what did and didn't happen to this building. End of story.

Any theorizing or speculation which isn't addressed in what the NIST Report contains is irrelevant.
Any speculation which may exaggerated claims made in the NIST Report is actually a defense of this arrogant rag.

Any other approach to this report is no different to the Stutt/Legge approach to the Pentagon. None of what they claim (apart from being proven erroneous on many levels) has ever benn verified nor is it part of the official narrative. It is irrelevant.

Let's see what the NIST FAQ page claims in light of many questions raised by the report and compare what SanderO claims.

http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication...m?pub_id=861610

SanderO claims that fire was a factor. NIST says

The heat from the uncontrolled fires caused steel floor beams and girders to thermally expand, leading to a chain of events that caused a key structural column to fail. The failure of this structural column then initiated a fire-induced progressive collapse of the entire building.
According to the report's probable collapse sequence, heat from the uncontrolled fires caused thermal expansion of the steel beams on the lower floors of the east side of WTC 7, damaging the floor framing on multiple floors.
Eventually, a girder on Floor 13 lost its connection to a critical column, Column 79, that provided support for the long floor spans on the east side of the building (see Diagram 1). The displaced girder and other local fire-induced damage caused Floor 13 to collapse, beginning a cascade of floor failures down to the 5th floor. Many of these floors had already been at least partially weakened by the fires in the vicinity of Column 79. This collapse of floors left Column 79 insufficiently supported in the east-west direction over nine stories.
The unsupported Column 79 then buckled and triggered an upward progression of floor system failures that reached the building's east penthouse. What followed in rapid succession was a series of structural failures. Failure first occurred all the way to the roof line-involving all three interior columns on the easternmost side of the building (79, 80, 81). Then, progressing from east to west across WTC 7, all of the columns failed in the core of the building (58 through 78). Finally, the entire façade collapsed.

Due to the effectiveness of the spray-applied fire-resistive material (SFRM) or fireproofing, the highest steel column temperatures in WTC 7 only reached an estimated 300 degrees C (570 degrees F), and only on the east side of the building did the steel floor beams exceed 600 degrees C (1,100 degrees F). However, fire-induced buckling of floor beams and damage to connections-that caused buckling of a critical column initiating collapse-occurred at temperatures below approximately 400 degrees C where thermal expansion dominates. Above 600 degrees C (1,100 degrees F), there is significant loss of steel strength and stiffness. In the WTC 7 collapse, the loss of steel strength or stiffness was not as important as the thermal expansion of steel structures caused by heat.

These two videos address NIST's exaggeration and dishonesty regarding these claims (among others)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4dU_p9UTTs...be_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFpbZ-aLDLY...be_gdata_player

From NIST again, differentiating between the collapses of the towers and WTC7 (again emphasizing that fire was the cause of collapse.

WTC 7 was unlike the WTC towers in many respects. WTC 7 was a more typical tall building in the design of its structural system. It was not struck by an aircraft. The collapse of WTC 7 was caused by a single initiating event-the failure of a northeast building column brought on by fire-induced damage to the adjacent flooring system and connections-which stands in contrast to the WTC 1 and WTC 2 failures, which were brought on by multiple factors, including structural damage caused by the aircraft impact, extensive dislodgement of the sprayed fire-resistive materials or fireproofing in the impacted region, and a weakening of the steel structures created by the fires.
The fires in WTC 7 were quite different from the fires in the WTC towers. Since WTC 7 was not doused with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, large areas of any floor were not ignited simultaneously as they were in the WTC towers. Instead, separate fires in WTC 7 broke out on different floors, most notably on Floors 7 to 9 and 11 to 13. The WTC 7 fires were similar to building contents fires that have occurred in several tall buildings where the automatic sprinklers did not function or were not present.

Why did WTC 7 collapse, while no other known building in history has collapsed due to fires alone?

Factors contributing to WTC 7's collapse included: the thermal expansion of building elements such as floor beams and girders, which occurred at temperatures hundreds of degrees below those typically considered in current practice for fire-resistance ratings; significant magnification of thermal expansion effects due to the long-span floors in the building; connections between structural elements that were designed to resist the vertical forces of gravity, not the thermally induced horizontal or lateral loads; and an overall structural system not designed to prevent fire-induced progressive collapse.

Getting the hint yet?

NIST WTC 7 Investigation Finds Building Fires Caused Collapse, 08 21 08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTDTZJ_gto...be_gdata_player

SanderO claims that "fuel oil systems" contributed (exaggeratedly) to the heat and fires in the building...

NIST says..

Did fuel oil systems in WTC 7 contribute to its collapse?

No. The building had three separate emergency power systems, all of which ran on diesel fuel. The worst-case scenarios associated with fires being fed by ruptured fuel lines-or from fuel stored in day tanks on the lower floors-could not have been sustained long enough, could not have generated sufficient heat to weaken critical interior columns, and/or would have produced large amounts of visible smoke from the lower floors, which were not observed.
As background information, the three systems contained two 12,000 gallon fuel tanks, and two 6,000 gallon tanks beneath the building's loading docks, and a single 6,000 gallon tank on the 1st floor. In addition one system used a 275 gallon tank on the 5th floor, a 275 gallon tank on the 8th floor, and a 50 gallon tank on the 9th floor. Another system used a 275 gallon day tank on the 7th floor.
Several months after the WTC 7 collapse, a contractor recovered an estimated 23,000 gallons of fuel from these tanks. NIST estimated that the unaccounted fuel totaled 1,000 ±1,000 gallons of fuel (in other words, somewhere between 0 and 2,000 gallons, with 1,000 gallons the most likely figure). The fate of the fuel in the day tanks was unknown, so NIST assumed the worst-case scenario, namely that they were full on Sept. 11, 2001. The fate of the fuel of two 6,000 gallon tanks was also unknown. Therefore, NIST also assumed the worst-case scenario for these tanks, namely that all of the fuel would have been available to feed fires either at ground level or on the 5th floor.

SanderO claims that "structural damage" was a factor along with the fires...

NIST says...

Did debris from the collapse of WTC 1 cause damage to WTC 7's structure in a way that contributed to the building's collapse?

The debris caused structural damage to the southwest region of the building-severing seven exterior columns-but this structural damage did not initiate the collapse. The fires initiated by the debris, rather than the structural damage that resulted from the impacts, initiated the building's collapse after the fires grew and spread to the northeast region after several hours. The debris impact caused no damage to the spray-applied fire resistive material that was applied to the steel columns, girders, and beams except in the immediate vicinity of the severed columns. The debris impact damage did play a secondary role in the last stages of the collapse sequence, where the exterior façade buckled at the lower floors where the impact damage was located. A separate analysis showed that even without the structural damage due to debris impact, WTC 7 would have collapsed in fires similar to those that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001. None of the large pieces of debris from WTC 2 (the south tower) hit WTC 7 because of the large distance between the two buildings.

Would WTC 7 have collapsed even if there had been no structural damage induced by the collapse of the WTC towers?

Yes. Even without the structural damage, WTC 7 would have collapsed from the fires that the debris initiated. The growth and spread of the lower-floor fires due to the loss of water supply to the sprinklers from the city mains was enough to initiate the collapse of the entire building due to buckling of a critical column in the northeast region of the building.

SanderO claims that the WTC7 substations explained the explosions heard, explained the damage seen by Barry Jennings and Hess and may also have contributed (immensely) to the fires and also the explosion filmed in the lower floors just before collapse.

NIST says...

Did the electrical substation next to WTC 7 play a role in the fires or collapse?

No. There is no evidence that the electric substation contributed to the fires in WTC 7. The electrical substation continued working until 4:33 p.m. on Sept. 11, 2001. Alarms at the substation were monitored, and there were no signals except for one event early in the day. No smoke was observed emanating from the substation.
Special elements of the building's construction-namely trusses, girders, and cantilever overhangs, which were used to transfer loads from the building superstructure to the columns of the electric substation (over which WTC 7 was constructed) and foundation below-also did not play a significant role in the collapse.

Got it?

Relevant videos:

WTC7 on 9/11 - Strange Occurrence Within the Last 20 Minutes - 03:20 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biIIqKybSZE...be_gdata_player

Explosion heard just before collapse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ftINnhT0Y...be_gdata_player


NIST explanation of Jennings/Hess accounts:

The sound levels reported by all witnesses do not match the sound level of an explosion that would have been required to cause the collapse of the building. If the two loud booms were due to explosions that were responsible for the collapse of WTC 7, the emergency responder-located somewhere between the 6th and 8th floors in WTC 7-would not have been able to survive the near immediate collapse and provide this witness account.

In other words, they're liars.

Barry Jennings' account of WTC 7 explosions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbbZE7c3a8Q...be_gdata_player

Michael Hess, WTC7 explosion witness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfiLbXMa64...be_gdata_player

Explosion witnesses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhoNYj9_fg...be_gdata_player

Finally, there is no physical proof that heat caused the collapse nor were any steel samples checked for explosive/exotic explosive residue.

Why didn't the investigators look at actual steel samples from WTC 7?

Steel samples were removed from the site before the NIST investigation began. In the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11, debris was removed rapidly from the site to aid in recovery efforts and facilitate emergency responders' efforts to work around the site. Once it was removed from the scene, the steel from WTC 7 could not be clearly identified. Unlike the pieces of steel from WTC 1 and WTC 2, which were painted red and contained distinguishing markings, WTC 7 steel did not contain such identifying characteristics.

So the question is SanderO, if NIST has been reduced to claiming that office fires were responsible for bringing down WTC7, why would you be making exaggerated claims that actually reinforce the report in the same vein as the Legge/Stutt OCT Mark 2 approach to the Pentagon?

If your arguments and speculation are nowhere to be seen in this report they are irrelevant.

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Mar 5 2012, 12:31 PM

[SanderO]

OSS,

I am interested in getting to the truth about what happened. I can't, nor can anyone else, know what the source of an explosion that someone heard that morning was... not even 150 fire fighters. This is pretty subjective...

I heard an explosion
I heard a bomb
I heard an explosion and it sounded like a bomb (going off)

There are things which explode in burning buildings which are not bombs
transformers DO explode (i provided some videos of this)
transformers in the sub stations of the WTC have exploded from fire in 1992
massive transformers in sub stations are cooled /insulated by flammable oil which when heated releases explosive gas
Con ed reported it lost 13kv feeders to B7's sub station at 8:46 when the plane hit tower 1
Jennings and Hess reported a massive explosion below them when they were in the stairs before 10 am
Massive explosion enough to rip the emergency stair apart and make it impassable seems destructive enough to break sched 40 piping carry diesel fuel.
All power was off in B7 when Hess and Jennings arrived at 23rd floor EMC (can we assume there was some power and light in the EMC as it was windowless (???) and they observed no one there and coffee in cups and so forth.
Were the stairs lit by back up battery power so they could descend from 23 to 6,7 or 8?

What can we stipulate as possible or probable related to the observations and the building and equipment:

explosions were heard
origin / type of explosions is indeterminate
explosion below flr 8 stair blew it apart before 10 am
schedule 40 piping can break from from mechanical impact of sufficient force (no such thing as bullet proof piping)
lift pumps in the lower part of B7 supplied diesel from the 20,000 gal tanks to the day tanks on demand (float or pressure switch)
Diesel tanks are not indestructible and would not survive intact the collapse of a skyscraper upon them
recovery of lost fuel from a broken tank would be difficult and indeterminate unless there was pooling of unburnt fuel
there was thick black smoke seen coming from floors 6&7 south and east sides (lee sides)
fires were un-fought from 8:46 until 5:20 collapse
steel is weakened by heat
there was no direct load path from core columns above floor 7 to the foundations
7 OEM generators and day tank
6 Switchgear, storage
5 Switchgear, generators, transformers
4 Upper level of 3rd floor, switchgear
3 Lobby, SSB Conference Center, rentable space, manage
2 Open to first floor lobby, transformer vault upper level, upper level switchgear
1 Lobby, loading docks, existing Con Ed transformer vaults, fuel storage, lower level switchgear
much of core above floor 7 was supported on 3 transfer trusses

8 perimeter columns on the north side were supported on cantilever girders from bearing on the north core columns on one side
a collapse or destruction of the transfer trusses would cause the core columns above to drop 8 stories with no resistance
9. the east penthouse was above the 2 transfer trusses on the east side of the core
10 the east penthouse descended through the entire visible height (20+ stories) before naked observation of the roof line descent (at FF) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx2Kx2AkXEg
11 the building swayed east and west beginning 60 seconds before the east penthouse drops - (this suggests that there was load redistribution taking place in remaining columns

"The 275-gallon tank associated with the American Express generator was located at the west end of the 8th floor. If full, the 275 gallons represent a potential of about 600 MegaJoules , which would be enough to cause a serious fire that could spread to other fuels (in truth, one gallon of fuel oil would be enough to cause a serious fire that could spread to other fuels) but not felt to be enough to threaten the stability of the building's structural elements. " that's just 1 gallon to spreead the fire to other fuel sources.. tanks and pipes.

For a discussion of the motion of B7 go here:

http://the911forum.freeforums.org/wtc-7-tr...a-t353-150.html

You'll learn that there was a period of traces on points of the facade which exceeded G. The meaning if obvious... for that period the motion was not falling but something else of some force added to the force of gravity.

B7 collapsed from a core failure... not all 81 columns simultaneously.

[kawika]

All power was off in B7 when Hess and Jennings arrived at 23rd floor EMC (can we assume there was some power and light in the EMC as it was windowless (???) and they observed no one there and coffee in cups and so forth.

Sorry, no. Power was on when they arrived BY ELEVATOR just after 9:03 am

Power cut off (for whatever reason) at 10 am when the South Tower collapsed. Generators kicked on. This was reported by a WTC7 building engineer who was on the third floor lobby at that time. But he doesn't say how long they stayed running because he evacuated up Greenwich Street as the North tower fell.

explosion below flr 8 stair blew it apart before 10 am

Sorry, no. It was floor six (6). Jennings is very explicit about this.

Diesel tanks are not indestructible and would not survive intact the collapse of a skyscraper upon them

Sorry, no. The above ground tanks were steel. The underground tanks were fiberglass, tops were six feet below grade, completely surrounded by pea gravel. The loading dock floor above them was 28" thick and it was UNDAMAGED.

Which skyscraper are you referring to? WTC7 or WTC1? If WTC7 how does their crushing have anything to do with contributing to the collapse, or fire that supposedly contributed?

there was thick black smoke seen coming from floors 6&7 south and east sides (lee sides)

Sorry, no. Fire was coming from 8 and above. No indication of fire on 6 or 7 in the video I provided. Fire on 7 was long burnt out. Absolutely no indication of any fire on 6. Please stop regurgitating this nonsense to support the truss cook theory.

The dark smoke (in the shadow of the building) was coming from floor 8. No fuel on 8 to contribute to your diesel fire. More likely carpet and furniture, computers and others burning inefficiently.