Wtc 7 And Sandero, NIST v speculation Options

[elreb]

Michael Catalano (building engineer) reported fires on floor five (looking up stairs from floor four).

Ok, so the explosions came from the fifth floor where there were 11 generators and one day tank.

Therefore the explosions came first…

The Salomon Brothers 9 generators would only pump fuel if they were running.

Their transformers would look something like this which "act" more like an interface between Con-Ed and themselves.

(IMG:http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/635/768/264/1283154978759_hz-myalibaba-web13_11890.jpg)

[SanderO]

Barry Jennings and Mike Hess were in the OEM on the 23rd floor and found it empty. [Power was on]

They traveled down the stairwell to almost to the sixth floor when there was an explosion below them forcing them to travel up to the eight floor, where they were trapped for over an hour until NYFD saved them. [Local power was off]

This explosion accorded before the WTC collapse. Jennings said there were all kinds of explosions. Another witness stated that the back of the building was blown out.

The lobby was also blown up and there were bodies all over the floor. On the GPS map, I count around 8 bodies.

A large Police officer said that there would be more explosions. How did he know this?


My Questions:

How did Rudolph Giuliani know to not be in the OEM?

What caused so many explosions? [Not transformers]

Why were we told that no one was killed in WTC7?

Conclusion: WTC7 was a screw up because it failed to collapse along with WTC 1 & 2

Apparently when the sub station exploded when the first plane hit... (my theory) there was confusion and it was presumed there was a terrorist attack and that perhaps the sub station explosion(s) were thought to be terrorists bombs. That would be a good hunch. He didn't know why the feeders shorted and the cause of the sub station explosions... and so the prudent thing was to stay away from B7.

My theory of what happened only occurred to me this year and that's 11 years of hindsight and reading all sorts of stuff about B7 including the debunking of NIST. But aside from and inside job no one has looked at the cover up of negligence.

The many explosions... I don't know how many... can you quantify it?... would likely be caused by various pressurized systems being subject to high temps and exploding... refrigerant for one... water tanks... portable fire extinguishers perhaps... There probably were step down transformers on many floors.

How am I supposed to know why they said no one was killed? For sure it would kinda nip in the bud a wrongful death lawsuit and discovery...

just sayin'

[SanderO]

Michael Catalano (building engineer) reported fires on floor five (looking up stairs from floor four). He escaped from WTC7 through the Washington Street exit and was chased up Greenwich Street by the debris cloud from WTC1.

Conclusion: There were fires in WTC7 before WTC1 hit WTC7.

Correct... the fire began shortly after the plane STRUCK tower one from shorts in the electrical system...

This afternoon, one of guys at the boat yard and I were talking brought up 911 and he sounded awful knowledgeable about the WTC. He IS... he was an electrical contractor there! He was called in after th '93 bombing and seems to know a lot about the towers. When I mentioned 13kv feeders he immediately corrected me 13.8KV feeder.

Tomorrow I am going to pick his brain. One thing he mentioned which came as a surprise was that the floors in B7 were very "springy" as if the were designed to 1/180 or 1/360 deflection... read not stiff. He said the construction of B7 was really cheap. First time I heard that one.

The plot thickens! I got me witness to the towers *systems*... stay tuned...

[elreb]

Apparently when the sub station exploded when the first plane hit... (my theory)

No…this is impossible and undocumented. Explosions took place around 9:35 am.

Notice that I do not have a theory and have never claimed controlled demolitions in this thread.

This is what Jennings said = “I’m just confused about one thing….why World Trade Center 7 went down in the first place - I’m very confused about that - I know what I heard I heard explosions,” said Jennings, adding that the explanation that the explosions were as a result of fuel oil tanks in the building did not add up.

Time line:

8:46 am north tower strike… Jennings also said that a small Cessna hit the north tower

9:00 am Jennings/Hess arrive WTC7

9:03 am south tower strike

9:07 am Giuliani meets Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik at 75 Barclay Street, on the northern border of the WTC complex behind the Post Office waiting to talk to Vice President Cheney on the phone.

Kerik is currently serving a 4 year sentence at a prison camp located at the Federal Correctional Institution, Cumberland in Maryland.

9:30 am Command center of New York’s Office of Emergency Management evacuated.

9:35 am explosions on 5th floor WTC7 [Backside of stairs blown away]

9:59 am south tower collapse

10:28 am north tower collapse

Experiment:

Go out to your water heater and plug the T&P valve with a threaded brass plug.
Unplug the water heater and bypass your thermostats. Plug the water heater back in.
Don’t run any water in the house and wait about 30-45 minutes.
The tank will burst but not explode.

[SanderO]

Jennings is not an expert witness with respect to Power stations, explosions, controlled demotions, structural engineering. He likely doesn't know a think about electrical caused explosions not about the structural details of the building he was working in... most people don't. So he and most people are confused when a building collapses. It's a mystery to them and it defies *common sense*... standing one minute and then gone the next. William Rodriguez is similarly naive as a witness and not an expert in any sense of the word.

Almost all witness testimony has to be taken with a grain of salt... especially about technical matters. The deputy Fire Commissioner DID report he witnessed what we believed to be electrical caused explosions.

Con Edison's report says that it lost 13KV feeders at 8:46. I am proposing there were shorts...shorts are hot and can cause fires... I think that by the time Jennings and Hess made it down to floor 7 in the stairwell... there was no power to the elevators when they left the OEM... there were explosions caused by the sub station shorts, gas and so forth. My guess is the shorts in the 134.8kv lines did not cause immediate explosions... but were the proximate cause of the explosions and fires which came within a short period of time.

Try to imagine this possibility.... I am not asserting this is fact... but it is possible.

OEM is staffed 24/7 by skeleton crew. B7 has few tenants at 8:46 as it's before normal business hrs. The plane hits T1 and caused the shorts, then a few minutes / moments later the power goes down. People are aware of the plane strike as debris is raining down on Vesey Street. Reports of a plane hit the tower cause some to think it's terrorism and depart the scene. Were I down there, that's what I would do. OEM staff calls Rudi and tells him the power is down after 8:46, but likely after the second plane hits confirming in THEIR minds that this was a terrorist attack , they are on emergency back up and Rudi would have to climb 23 flights of stairs to get to the OEM.... which is just next to two huge buildings that have been hit by what was believed to be jumbo jets from by terrorists - reasonable assumption.

Rudi tells them to get the hell out of there. Hess and Jennings arrive at the OEM after hearing a plane has hit T1 and find no one there as they have abandoned it because their boss told them to get out of there as it was not a good place to be... especially with their reports of explosions in the buildings (from unknown causes)... presumed to be part of the terrorist attack. Fair assumption.

The sub station WAS on the *backside*.. north side of the foot print.

Your experiment proves nothing related to the events.

The FDNY and the DOB and perhaps Con Ed... did not know what caused the 13kv (8 of them) feeds to short out. Con Ed might have and realized that they might have some serious fires on their hands and possible explosions of insulating oil which evaporates to explosive gas. Transformers DO explode.

They determine early on that they cannot even fight fires in B7 and mostly, it appears send men in to evacuate and assess the situation which they determine after 8 hrs that the structure may not make it and cease monitoring from inside the tower and evacuate the area... which is what FDNY and DOB do when a building is likely to collapse.

When it did collapse it was cover your ass time and sweep history under the rug and avoid examination of the bone headed decisions which allowed this tower to collapse. Blame it on the terrorists and office fires... we could fight because the sprinklers didn't work.

[elreb]

Questions and Answers about the NIST WTC 7 Investigation (09/17/2010, ARCHIVE, incorporated into 9/19/2011 update)

Did the electrical substation next to WTC 7 play a role in the fires or collapse?

No. There is no evidence that the electric substation contributed to the fires in WTC 7. The electrical substation continued working until 4:33 p.m. on Sept. 11, 2001. Alarms at the substation were monitored, and there were no signals except for one event early in the day. No smoke was observed emanating from the substation.

The following PDF should help our understanding…Con-Ed can lose any 2 feeders and not lose a network grid.

WTC7 was actually 2 sub-stations in a network grid of 6 sub-stations consisting of 59 feeders.

There is no mention of “bursting” or exploding transformers.

The 13kw feeders are open/auto and they simply turn themselves off. [Like a GFI]

I think you are confusing “Switchgear” with transformer.

http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00174.pdf

NEW Time line:

8:46 am north tower strike… Jennings also said that a small Cessna hit the north tower
8:46 am two feeders went off line
9:00 am Jennings/Hess arrive WTC7
9:02 am two feeders went off line
9:03 am south tower strike
9:07 am Giuliani meets Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik at 75 Barclay Street, on the northern border of the WTC complex behind the Post Office waiting to talk to Vice President Cheney.
Kerik is currently serving a 4 year sentence at a prison camp located at the Federal Correctional Institution, Cumberland in Maryland.
9:30 am Command center of New York’s Office of Emergency Management evacuated.
9:35 am explosions on 5th floor WTC7 [Backside of stairs blown away]
9:52 am four feeders go off line
9:59 am south tower collapse
10:28 am north tower collapse
10:28 am twenty-one other feeders go off line

[onesliceshort]

Michael Catalano (building engineer) reported fires on floor five (looking up stairs from floor four).  He escaped from WTC7 through the Washington Street exit and was chased up Greenwich Street by the debris cloud from WTC1.

Conclusion:  There were fires in WTC7 before WTC1 hit WTC7.

There's a contradictory (alleged) statement by the FDNY about floor 5 or (allegedly) simply pointing out that by early afternoon there was no fire in this area.

(IMG:http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5754/img00050.png)

That's two documented occasions where the FDNY allegedly denied the presence of fuel fires (the other being the NIST claim that there was no diesel fire smoke prior to collapse).

Did they ever name the FDNY spokesperson(s)/witness(es)? Or the OEM people by name?

[elreb]

Does anyone have a good lay out of floor 5 showing exact locations of generators, switchgear and fire exits?

I knew very little about WTC7 before this thread came up.

Once all the data is on the table…then we can connect the dots.

I believe much of Larry Silverstein’s statement that the building was pulled, “Due to a terrible loss of life”…and then the building was collapsed.

Between 8 to 12 people died in WTC7, representing the Mayors own office, the Secret Service, the Port Police and the ATF.

The GPS does not lie, yet the government does!

[onesliceshort]

Does anyone have a good lay out of floor 5 showing exact locations of generators, switchgear and fire exits?

I knew very little about WTC7 before this thread came up.

Once all the data is on the table…then we can connect the dots.

I believe much of Larry Silverstein’s statement that the building was pulled, “Due to a terrible loss of life”…and then the building was collapsed.

Between 8 to 12 people died in WTC7, representing the Mayors own office, the Secret Service, the Port Police and the ATF.

The GPS does not lie, yet the government does!

Try here:

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/...ia-request.html

I wouldn't know where to start!

Edit: it's a large download. I had to cancel

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: May 13 2012, 05:58 PM

[onesliceshort]

There's a contradictory (alleged) statement by the FDNY about floor 5 or (allegedly) simply pointing out that by early afternoon there was no fire in this area.

(IMG:http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5754/img00050.png)

That's two documented occasions where the FDNY allegedly denied the presence of fuel fires (the other being the NIST claim that there was no diesel fire smoke prior to collapse).

Did they ever name the FDNY spokesperson(s)/witness(es)? Or the OEM people by name?

Here's an image of WTC7 (allegedly) taken at 11:33 am

http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&im...tyPhotos333.jpg

Possible smoke (white) from southern face of building.

Here's an image of WTC7 (allegedly) taken at @12pm according to the exif data:

http://regex.info/exif.cgi?imgurl=http%3A%...tyPhotos239.jpg

I see no smoke from this face on any floors.

Another angle (around same time?)

http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&im...tyPhotos314.jpg

No smoke from this angle either.

Hi-res image of east face of WTC7 prior to NIST released "2pm" image of floors 11 and 12

http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&im...yPhotos8099.jpg

NIST released "2pm" image of same area as above (east face, floors 11 and 12)

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images...yPhotos1391.jpg



This post has been edited by onesliceshort: May 13 2012, 06:51 PM

[elreb]

Edit: it's a large download. I had to cancel

I captured both downloads on my "Big Boy" computer.

Yes they are monsters and I may need my engineer son's help.

After that, I'll be back

[kawika]

Does anyone have a good lay out of floor 5 showing exact locations of generators, switchgear and fire exits?

See this: Page 50, PDF page 94.

http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861611

[elreb]

See this: Page 50, PDF page 94.

I got it...

Now we are getting somewhere…

Floor 5 had two transfer corridors and only one was blown up.

It appears that Jennings and Hess were originally on the East side due to the fact that the stairs were an open area up to the 6th floor. [Exhaust air]

I will have to generate a schematic showing the 4 generators and the fuel valve on that side.

It appears that the “Switchgear vaults” were exploded.

With all this new data, I may just start a new webpage.

I do not have some hocus pocus theory, no claim of CD…only data.

Later, we will talk about the contrast between demolition and deconstruction…

[SanderO]

Obviously the floors contained more than elevators and stairs. My friend Joe, who worked in 7 (electrical sub contractor) told me: B7 was supplied by 4 - 13.8v feeds and that the relays and switch gear were on 4 and 5. He thought that the power was so large because they expected lots of computer loads. He said the Con Ed sub station itself had much larger feeds perhaps several 138KV (if I recall what he said). He has a good understanding of the Con Ed system. Let's see the plans!

He also explained one reason that transformers explode. When they shut them down for any reason, they cool down and pull in moisture. If the moisture is not removed (he didn't say how this was done...) when they are put back on line the moisture heats up and explodes.

He said the sub station transformers were about 30' tall and occupied the first 3 floors...

I am all for facts! Just the facts!

[elreb]

You are talking pure “mumbo jumbo”…

All power arrived at 138,000 volts and is stepped down to 13,000 volts per feeder.

WTC7 was classed as two substations holding 4 feeders each. [8 total]

6 feeds apparently went to the WTC complex

I had already stated that the transformers were 20’ tall.

Transformers are protected by Switchgear.

You appear to be selling class III horse manure; which generates enough heat to ignite spontaneously.

Switchgear was on 1, 2, 4, 5, 6,

My god…please do your homework and stop your hunch baloney

[Tamborine man]

Starting @ 8:35, there's some rather interesting shoots of B7 in this 'new' video!




Cheers

This post has been edited by Tamborine man: May 14 2012, 02:39 AM

[SanderO]

You are talking pure "mumbo jumbo"…

All power arrived at 138,000 volts and is stepped down to 13,000 volts per feeder.

WTC7 was classed as two substations holding 4 feeders each. [8 total]

6 feeds apparently went to the WTC complex

I had already stated that the transformers were 20' tall.

Transformers are protected by Switchgear.

You appear to be selling class III horse manure; which generates enough heat to ignite spontaneously.

Switchgear was on 1, 2, 4, 5, 6,

My god…please do your homework and stop your hunch baloney

Elreb... where is the citation or the schematics of the power system? Joe told me yesterday that there were 13.8 kv feed to the upper stories. I believe him...he worked on them and was called on by Con Ed one night when on the the main transformers went down. It was determined that the street crew had cracked one of the main feeds.

Transformers explode. Look up the 1992 event below WTC1.

Not stopping anything... I am doing what I can with the resources I have.

[SanderO]

A word about 911 research.

I don't consider myself a researcher. I am an interested individual who looks for available information and has viewed and studied much, but not all of the public record. I have also viewed a fair amount of the presentations that groups and individuals in the truth movement have published and attended more than a dozen 911 related conferences and symposia on the topic.

I use my very limited knowledge of MOST technical areas and somewhat more advanced understanding of structure to inform my understanding of what happened at the trade center. I have also done many calculations drawings and so forth to facilitate / inform my understanding such as the Factor of Safety in the twin towers core columns. I've seen no other study or calculations, but many remarks about how strong they were and how much reserve strength they had.

I am not an electrical engineer nor familiar with the schematics or the mech and electrical equipment in B7 or even the floor plans below 6&7. Any serious discussion about what might have happened down there demands knowledge of this.

I can't see inside the structure to know what was going on... even if there were cameras rolling on the outside. And I can't make a determination of precisely what was going on from seeing a few frames showing spewing smoke. Anyone who claims they can is not to be trusted.

I am not going to make 9/11 my occupation as some have... or spend 24/7 *researching* what on the www... who said what on so on. I have been calling for a new investigation.. thorough and no holds barred... since I first became interested and still would like to see one done by professional investigators who know their field and have the tools.

I will continue to present what appears to my limited knowledge and understanding what appears to be a coherent explanation. It is not research and I am not holding myself out to be an expert. What I write is my opinion which in some cases is the same as others and in other is completely different.

[elreb]

Joe told me yesterday that there were 13.8 kv feed to the upper stories.

Two points for Joe...


WTC building performance study

5.3.5 Power

Power to WTC7 entered at 13,800 volts was stepped down to 480/277 Volts by silicone oil-filled transformers in individual masonry vaults on the 5th floor

BUT

This still puts us back on the 5th floor were the explosions came from...

(IMG:http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/uploads/49443-1.jpg)

[SanderO]

We don't know what caused the explosions or precisely where they were... except below the 7/8th floor where Hess and Jennings claimed they were when they experience the explosion(s).

Even if it was on flr 5 inside of some of the step down transformer or switch *vaults* or closets... they were fed from the sub station below and we can't know whether the sub station did *something* (or not) to trigger the fires/explosions on floor 5. If these units over heated because their cooling failing... they could explode.... no? I don't know a thing about this technology but I believe there is likely a non CD cause for those explosions... related to overheated transformers etc.