Wtc7 Fire Progression Questions, Please bring it in here.... Options

[elreb]

This is WTC7 loading dock between 10:15 and 10:28 am. No fires and the lights are still on.

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/loadingdock.jpg)

[SanderO]

OSS,

I suggest you contact James Quitierre who is a professor of fire science in MD and was fired by NIST for wanting a proper investigation. I can send you his email address. I don't know what his position is about the fires at B7 or even the twins. I suspect he is not a CD advocate... but I simply do not know. He knows more about fires than I do for sure, but perhaps less about engineering and structure... and there are plenty who know more about this than I do.

I think your collection of images is very much along the lines of Tom's approach to assembling and then reading the observables as objectively as possible. Of course there is not a complete visual record and so one can't conclude anything about what you can't see and may or may not be there.

But this library of images is the starting point.

[SanderO]

Hard for me to read what broke that steel. It could be a break and then some abrasion from the collapse. I am not a forensic examiner and have no expertise in such things.

[onesliceshort]

SanderO, post the images of "broken windows" and "fires from 5 and 6".

Here's a selection.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5-V3pw_cAI

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5473/imageilz.jpg

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/8633/imagesksf.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4755/imageiau.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8117/imagecflm.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/556/imagehjl.jpg

Cirone

From 4:16mins 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z2fYF3Abb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ImaALIpxgk

2pm+

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/410/imagexfo.jpg

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5015/imagextd.jpg

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images...yPhotos8101.jpg

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images...yPhotos8104.jpg

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images...yPhotos8105.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4711/imageusl.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7913/imagezcw.jpg


3pm+

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/745/imagegiw.jpg

http://archive.org/download/TerrySchmidt_I...dt_IMG_1511.jpg

http://archive.org/download/TerrySchmidt_I...dt_IMG_1512.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9908/imageovo.jpg

http://thewebfairy.com/911/video/Bld7.mov

3:40pm+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRKCSmnR3ow

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7587/imagejay.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5166/imagejau.jpg

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/931/imagexwq.jpg

And I can tell you haven't bothered to read the links. Or the last post? Or read through the labelled, timestamped images?

I'm not entertaining your speculation here. Most of the images available are posted in this thread. 

Go dig.

[elreb]

Thermate "Cut" on the right...these are not breaks!

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/steel4.jpg) (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/steel3.jpg)

[elreb]

Both of SSB fuel tanks were broken early on by "Concussion" and lost all their fuel [Concussion, from the Latin "to shake violently"]

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/ssbtanks2.jpg) Tank pad was 16 feet under ground

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/ssbtanks.jpg) Tanks were separated by a steel “I” beam

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/tanks.jpg) Stock photo of fuel tanks

[SanderO]

Thermate cuts have slag attached to the cut. The drawings are dated in 2002.

This post has been edited by SanderO: Jun 11 2012, 08:52 PM

[onesliceshort]

Elreb or Kawika, do you guys have the plans for or know what occupied

1) the lower southwest corner floors (up to floor 15)

2) the other 3 corners of WTC7 (floors, 7, 8, 11, 12 and 13)

Any info or links appreciated. Cheers.

PS. That tear on the steel sample had to have been cut, no? Blow up the image to see the breakage. It looks like it's been torn without distortion. Really strange.

[onesliceshort]

Thermate cuts have slag attached to the cut. The drawings are dated in 2002.

They also contain the label "post excavation samples". Look like photocopies of the originals. Hence "2002"

[elreb]

Any info or links appreciated.

I only have structural drawings that show columns and beams

When you ask about the steel sample are you asking about the large “I” beam or C-83?

C-83 was cut by hand on two sides and the “I” beam was chemically cut. I don’t see any tearing on the original pictures.

The “I” beam was close to 2 1/2” thick at the “I” junction. I’ll get you a good picture tomorrow.

Keep in mind that the steel has been sitting around for 10 years.

We don’t have a “Wacky” theory…only evidence.

Do you have any “Weed” killer?

[elreb]

Any info or links appreciated.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[SanderO]

You think these drawings were produced after 9/11 as part of a clean up?

I looks more like a drawing for a geotechnical report about soil conditions/contamination... but the date protocol is completely weird. Drawings are dated when drawn, when revised and issued but rarely when checked. I would put too much stock in the value of these drawings.

Are we to believe that the tanks were empty but were intact? This was 6 months after 9/11?

[elreb]

They also contain the label "post excavation samples". Look like photocopies of the originals. Hence "2002"

OSS,

Any serious investigator should have noted the “tank removal” part.

The actual investigation began in October of 2001 requiring ground water monitoring wells.

At some point on "911", the tanks had been compromised and contained a mixture of soil, water, transformer oil and diesel.

SSB tanks were fiberglass and the Silverstein tanks were in concrete vaults.

Sometime in February, both tanks were found to contain no petroleum product. The eastern tank was totally empty. Both tanks were found to be cracked.

We have over 100 pages of reports.

[SanderO]

So was the fuel recovered or just discovered as missing in said reports? Missing could mean it was either combusted before, during or after the collapse... or just was dispersed into the soil or all of the preceding. Are there geotrechnical reports of the boring logs pre construction indicating how far bed rock was below street level? It does make sense that they would end up cracked with a 200,000 ton building collapsing on them even being below grade under a thick concrete slab which likely could not support the dynamic loads of the collapsing building... nor could the soil or the fill around the buried tanks. No?

[onesliceshort]

There are a number of mislabeled (direction/side of the building) images.

Remember this SanderO?

Any chance of having the decency to either point out the "mislabeled images" or retract that statement?

And please answer the last two posts on the source of the majority of smoke on the south of WTC7 and the multiple images of the lower floors (below 7), including ConEd, where no fires or smoke were filmed throughout the day.

Please don't post a wordy, speculative rant. Timeframes, images, etc.

[SanderO]

I don't have the time to go through all the images at the moment. It's really not that important anyway.

I see lots of smoke arising all up the south face of B7 in some of the shots taken from the west and I can't tell whether it from B5 or B6, but it doesn't look like it to me. I think they were from after noon till about after 3 pm.

The collection has very few images from the south for obvious reasons. There appears to be no fire fighting effort at B7 from fire equipment as there was on B6 across on the corner of West and Vesey.

There are some shots from the east which show heavy smoke and flames at the SE corner at about the 7th floor... can't tell exactly which floor that is. There are shots from the north showing intense fires on the same floors on Barclay Street side at about the same floor... can't tell exactly.

I am not a fire analysis or smoke analysis expert.

However we do need to understand why the officials expressed concern that the building might collapse. CDers will say because they knew it was to be demo'ed. Makes sense. Others will say that the officials believed that the fires or something else (explosion from electrical equipment) had compromised the structure. Both are speculation.

I have nothing more to say. Thank you for posting these images. I can conclude anything from them.

[onesliceshort]

I don't have the time to go through all the images at the moment. It's really not that important anyway.

Hey, how do you expect me to react to that SanderO??

Point out just one of the images you spotted that is "mislabelled".

Point out just one image where fires or smoke can be seen below floor 7.

Point out one image which shows fire on the south side of WTC7.

You don't need to be a "fire or smoke analyst expert" to tell that the type of fires required to affect the steel structure uniformly couldn't physically be contained within floors the size of a football field without being visible on the facades that were filmed throughout the day. And the fires that were filmed were self extinguishing on floors in 20 minute bursts.

In fact, you just need a brain.

Edit added:

I have nothing more to say. Thank you for posting these images. I can conclude anything from them.

Tell you what, ignore those questions above (as you were going to anyway). I'll let you save face on being exposed here. Just don't post any more. Done deal.

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Jun 12 2012, 11:57 AM

[elreb]

So…is this a tear, break, man cut or chemical cut?

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/steel6.jpg)

[onesliceshort]

So…is this a tear, break, man cut or chemical cut?

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/steel6.jpg)

So weird.

When I said "tear", I coupled that word with "without deformation". That is, impossible.

Better seen here (running down the right edge)

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/steel4.jpg)

I know one word that sums them up (IMO). Weakened. And not by "carpet fires" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[elreb]

They also contain the label "post excavation samples". Look like photocopies of the originals. Hence "2002"

WTC7 sat at around 20 feet above sea level.

Anti-float pads sat at 16 feet below grade.

Silverstein fuel tanks were buried under a slab varying in thickness from 30” to 36”

Tanks were drained of 19,000 gallons of petroleum product and 3596 gallons of other liquids in November 2001.

2 X 11,690 = 23,380 less 19,000 and 3596 = 784 gallons potentially missing

One eye witness claims that the SSB generators were on fire at or around the time of the Jennings/Hess explosion. This alone would have caused them to shut down, putting them out of commission.

This may have been the general idea.