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FAA Transcripts, AA77 - NYTimes

JackD
post Dec 12 2006, 08:59 PM
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Wow. Robin. Great post and insights.

I, too, believe, that the AA77 transcript, and all others, may be heavily "redacted" -- leaving much out, or putting something else in.

I noted that the plane, just before, or after, turning transponder off, suddenly drops 700 feet. Odd. sorta as if the radar return changed from one craft, to another flying 700 feet below.

The rest of the 9/11 commission report was essentially a script built from the ground up, including ONLY the information that created the 'myth' of the hijacking.

it's not to be trusted in any part of it -- even Lee Hamilton admits they accepted testimony from NORAD they knew to be false.

IF you want to reconstruct the plane's flight path, you have to go to the 84th RADES squadron at Hill AFB, utah -- these guys can use radar tracks off of anything, ARSR-4, whatever, to recreate the flight path of a frickin' ultralight lost over monument valley. that is their job. they were on the job after 9/11 -- so let's get their records, and compare them to 9/11 CR.

my 2c.
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Robin Hordon
post Dec 13 2006, 03:40 AM
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Jack D...just a few other points...

1.

MYTH...

That NORAD/OTHER RADAR can ONLY KNOW or recreate the tracks of flights AFTER events unfold...llike on the next day...

TRUTH...

These radar facilities may store and complie data and only have time to assemble it at a later date is a fair view...

DESIRED DISTRACTION...

To make people think that this radar data is NOT available in REALTIME...
Sooooo, nobody saw it until a day later? HUH????

REALITY...

Military radars can see in realtime exactly what they admit seeing the day after IF, I say again...IF...the military controllers/observers are directed toward that target, or IF, they happen to be responsible for monitoring the airspace in which the aircraft traversed...

NET RESULT...

FAA bad...NORAD good...PUBLIC misinformed...

2.

The altitude drop that you note HAD to be just before the transponder was shut off...or it wouldn't transmit the new altitude info...

IF..there were a REAL hijacking of AA77, such an altitude drop, or rise, or any radical change in flight path, this might be expected with all the scrambling in the cockpit...any flight path changes might occur right then...and then the transponder is shut down...but I would see that as happening well after a rumble in the cockpit...

IF...it was Burlingame in the deal...he would make some moves in flight paths to simulate trouble BEFORE shutting off the transponder...and then shut it off CALMLY fter he thought the scene called for it to be shut off...

3.

I'm old and remember far too much like:

Lee Hamilton is a fake democrat and corporate/government tool from Indiana who is always put into position to lie about and protect those who I call the "HI PERPS" when those thugs get caught redhanded.

Hamilton made sure that the Iran-Contra investigation DID NOT investigate certain information and leads during the Reagan-GHW Bush-Ollie North Regime which would have brought their house down BIG TIME. Hamilton is Kissenger Lite, and did the same for the HI PERPS who should have been outtedby the 9/11 O'mission. And in case you have not noticed, he is part of the latest investigation into the Iraq War which is just DeJaVu brother...again protecting the HI PERPS...ie: same thugs.

Hamilton is just like Arlen Specter...the guy who "tooled" the single bullet theory into the JFK deal...he's just another inside whore that the HI PERPS bring out of the bullpen when they need a HACK to lay down some baloney!

Just some history...and advice...if Hamilton says turn right, this is what you should do:
...turn left, cimb or descend...but NEVER turn right!
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Sanders
post Dec 13 2006, 04:20 AM
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Stunning thread. Speechless. I'm about as far from an ATC or a pilot as you can get - so I don't quite understand all of this, but from what I do get out of it, brilliant thread, everyone. I'm gonna have to read it all again now worthy.gif

edit: If it's ok with everyone here I'd like to put a link to this thread in the Library: NORAD/FAA topic
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rob balsamo
post Dec 13 2006, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE (Robin Hordon @ Dec 13 2006, 02:40 AM)
2.

The altitude drop that you note HAD to be just before the transponder was shut off...or it wouldn't transmit the new altitude info...

IF..there were a REAL hijacking of AA77, such an altitude drop, or rise, or any radical change in flight path, this might be expected with all the scrambling in the cockpit...any flight path changes might occur right then...and then the transponder is shut down...but I would see that as happening well after a rumble in the cockpit...

According to the Flight Data Recorder provided by the NTSB, the 'hijack' timeline is 3 mins and was all supposedly happening while on autopilot. There wasnt any altitude drop noted in the flight data recorder. It was a smooth transition, level altitude (FL350) 180 degree turn. It is covered in the new documentary.

Where do you guys see this 700 feet altitude drop? Can someone please point me to it... thanks.
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Robin Hordon
post Dec 13 2006, 02:11 PM
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JohnDoe...

I had not noticed the source of the 700 foot drop and presumed that the writer had done the research...so I just responded in an "IF" scenario.

However, as you know JohnDoe, I do not trust that the FDR info that you have had made available to you is authentic in either, actually belonging to AA77, and if it did belong to AA77, that the data within it is not been fabricated, replicated with modifications, or somehow hacked. And this includes those portions of the flight that are coroborrated by ATC tapes and ATC radar tracking and target reproductions found in other sources. IF the HI PERPS needed to create a replacement or, "falsified" FDR to cover their asses, they certainly would reproduce all the information from take-off to crash...dontcha think?

To all the readers...

From what I have gleaned so far in my research about AA77, there NEVER WAS POSITIVE RE-IDENTIFICATION OF AA77 after radar contact was lost over western VA. Only some "suggestions" have been established...which all came from the HI PERPS themselves.

IF...anyone has ANY information that the high speed primary target west of IAD...the one that travelled to the pentagon, made a huge turn, and dove into the side of the building...WAS POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED AS BEING AA77 AFTER BEING LOST ON RADAR OVER WEST VA...PLEASE...let me know ASAP.

So far, all I have is info that has been established by HI PERPS or their minions simply "saying so". Nobody has positively associated that primary return with an AAL B757 flying as AA77.

Therefore...a big concern...

I have enough experience in FAA investigations to know that when this group, or any group anywhere, depends upon priviledged information given them by the HI PERPS themselves, who, for example, have an IMMENSELY HUGE NEED for that high speed primary target that popped up west of IAD to be confirmed as being AA77...IE: in order to cover up a military airbourne vehicle...I state the following concept:

Check the sources...and their motives...and compare their desired results with what you discover!

It would be very, very tragic if PilotsFor9/11Truth was duped into spreading the word to the public THE exact information that the HI PERPS "need" the public to believe as being true...when it may not be true...and indeed, is designed to cover the HI PERPS.

I say this knowing full well that there is conflicting flight path and altitude information that is being thoroughly researched at or near the pentagon itself...and to that I say GREAT...keep it up...make them answer.

But, if this video prematurely supports or helps establish that the high speed primary target west of IAD IS AA77, then we are doing the HI PERP'S work for them, and that is to eventually discredit 9/11 Truthseekers...and to shape public opinions the way that the HI PERPS want it shaped. This would be both very sad, and by no means, the FIRST TIME that investigators had been "duped" by HI PERPS.

If I were coaching hockey with the entire 9/11 Truth Movement, I would say: "hey guys, when you are skating...'KEEP YOUR HEAD UP!'...because somebody is gonna check you right into the boards if you don't..."

Love, Peace and Progress...and appropriate skepticism...always

Robin Hordon
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Cary
post Dec 13 2006, 08:05 PM
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Robin,

JDX isn't saying that the FDR data for flight 77 is the FDR for flight 77. He's saying that this is the FDR data released under a FOIA request for same. AND that the FDR data released by the NTSB is the official govt. agency responsible for same, AND that the FDR data release by the NTSB shows that whatever was carrying the FDR was too high to hit the light poles, according the official story, AND all but impossible to hit the Pentagon. It's all about "the facts ma'am, just the facts," reaching back to the Dragnet series with Jack Webb.

JDX/Rob is not saying the flight 77 flew over the Pentagon or hit the Pentagon. His analysis says that the NTSB's FDR data doesn't fit with the official story.

Lots of unanswered questions is all. Questions this govt. hasn't answered to the satisfaction of the official data.

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong.
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rob balsamo
post Dec 13 2006, 10:37 PM
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Cary.. you hit the nail on the head thanks...

The importance of the FDR is not the fact that they say its from AA77... it is the fact that it came from a govt agency claiming to be from AA77 yet dont match the official story.

I have explained this to Robin thoroughly.. he knows.

Again.. even if the FDR was fabricated.. it is as alarming as it being accurate because it came from a govt agency...

(i need to put that statement above on some type of hotkey. .as i keep having to repeat it..lol)

Cheers!
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Vick
post Jun 1 2008, 06:50 PM
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I am trying to understand something... With the transponder shut off, what data is transmitted to the ATC? Is it just the location (a blip)? Doesn't the primary radar also pick up the distance to the plane and, therefore, its altitude? Please help me out, what am I missing here?
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HeavyJetdriver
post Nov 19 2008, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (Robin Hordon @ Dec 2 2006, 06:27 PM) *
To ALL...

If 9/11 was an inside deal it HAD to be pulled off by Rummie's military and within several differing agencies and departments within the military itself. When focusing on the "airliner" part of 9/11, Rummie had only one major problem because he could manage to do anything he wanted within the confines of the various military facilities and personnel. [For example: he got NORAD or someone to schedule all of those excercises that day so as to establish some "plausible deniability" that could be convincing to the public when they asked: "why didn't you shoot them down/".] Similar examples of "plausible deniability" are established all over this event.

Here's Rummie's achilles heels....

CIVILIANS...

CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES...they are what Rummie couldn't control, mislead or prevent from doing their job...CIVILIANS!

What to do with the CIVILIAN air traffic conroller system was his problem...because the CIVILIANS are trained to do what they do. A CIVILIAN controller's normal activities are not subject to censure except in a few cases, in fact, if CIVILIAN controllers were to succssfully execute a "save" bringing kudos and great press to the FAA, then the FAA runs with it to pat themselves on the back and they "highlight" the controller teams.

How did Rumie pull this off?

Most know that in June of 2001 Rummie changed the decades old protocols for ADC/NORAD intercept procedures so that the CIVILIAN FAA personell had to first get some form of notification or approval from Rummie's Pentagon or other Military BEFORE the CIVILIAN control staff could reach out immediately to get some action going from ADC/NORAD...ie: scramble some aircraft. Prior to June 2001, the front line CIVILIAN air traffic controller was the first to begin any "save sequence" because he or she would be the first to see or hear about emergencies or troubles in the air [usually just after the piloting crew...but not always].

A short aside here...

[[[ I have heard that the scrambles were on a normal pace up until June 2001 and that the scrambles were significantly "slowed or stopped" after June 2001. Maybe somebody has records about this. In any event, there were now three months of a new frequency of scrambles between June and September 2001 which, again, sets up more "plausible deniabilities" for Rummie's Military.

Saying it a bit differently, Rummie could now say: "Hey it's now normal ops to wait to scramble"...or..."We were rusty and slow because it we hadn't scrambled for CIVILIAN aircraft that much lately." ...then add the coincidental? military excercises..."We had five excercises operating that day."...and the public would buy all of these "stories" as being plausible excuses for NORAD's failure to protect.]]]

Back to procedure...

Therefore, the CIVILIAN controller and the immediate supervisor would be the "trigger" for subsequent "save" activities which, in layman's terms, means that the CIVILIAN radar controller would first VERBALLY notify his/her supervisor who is usually sitting 5-15 feet away, and then IMMEDIATELY reach out to ADC/NORAD observer/controller to point out the troubled aircraft, or to ask help in "seeing" the aircraft if the controller had lost radar contact with it. The Pentagon was not in this call sequence...

This is an important fact for y'all to know...

There are simple direct and open line "push button type" communications capabilities right at the CIVILIAN controller's fingertips at the sector...no red tape no dial up needed...just push a tiny button and TALK!...one second elapsed time...

continuing...and restating...

Before June 2001 there was no requirement for the FAA to reach out to the "PENTAGON" or any other military facility BEFORE reaching out to the ADC/NORAD active radar controller/observer inside NORAD's Facilities...I think that it NEADS in this case...

BTW...the word observer is a better descriptor for the NORAD radar personnel in these matters because they observe aircraft most of the time and only "control" their military aircraft when needed...NOT a put down here. In this entire scenario its good to have some distinctions between the different facilities and aviation related missions and personnel.

Offering a "piloting" example of a third party communication in an emergency:

Putting Rummie's military in between a CIVILIAN controller and an ADC/NORAD controller/observer to ask permission to scramble aircraft to help out in an airbourne emergency would be like a pilot loosing an engine in a Navajo and getting on the radio and calling the Piper Aircraft corporation to ask if its OK to feather the prop, switch off the fuel to the engine, and to trim up the craft, or to do anything else that I'm probably forgetting right now.

WE ALL KNOW THIS...Emergencies happen NOW...and not at the end of supervisory red tape phone calls or lengthy protocols.

Rummie's troubles...

Well, Rummie KNEW what the CIVILIAN controllers would do with the hijackings on 9/11 if things weren't changed...they would get fighters airboure IMMEDIATELY. PERIOD!

Game over, no crashes, no war, no nuthin for his department, nuthin for his president, nuthin for his rich friends who make military gadgets.

Hence, he HAD TO put the Pentagon in between the FAA and the NORAD teams with this change of protocols..

Now, I think that I heard some testimony somewhere that states that the Pentagon/Liason group did not pick up the calls from ZBW who were frantically seeking permission to scramble fighters fter AA11 was in trouble...I don't have copies of this...yet. I also heard that the fighters may have finally been scrambled by the supervisory personnel at ZBW because the ZBW guys KNEW what was supposed to happen as it had always happened before June 2001...and that they were pissed off that Rummie's Military didn't pick up the phone...and that eventually they OVERRODE the new protocol. Again, I remember the testimony, but I don't have any hard copy.

Its worth to remember hat Rummie's Military HAD to not answer the FAA's frantic calls because all of the aircraft had not been hijacked yet...sooooo....Rummie's Military had to burn as much time as they possibly could. In a wierd way, I think that the ZBW supervisory team almost blew the whole deal by the above mentioned OVERRIDE of the pentagon...not sure...just thinkin? This may be a "plausible" reason for the Otis fighters being sent on "whale watch" south of Long Island...aka...Rummie's "plant" inside NEADS had some fighters that he didn't plan for...ahhh, what to do?

Folks may not notice this but, most of the calls between CIVILIAN and Rummie's Military facilities have been separated into only two types: "FORMAL NOTIFICATION"...and "open party lines between everybody"...BTW...the latter being a handy way to get everyone on an unrecorded line...

Few calls are shown as "direct communications" between the CIVILIAN controllers and the NORAD radar observers...which I believe is what happened. HMMMM?

And, as this thread points out, there are indeed "some" direct communications between pilots, controllers, and facilities shown in the transcripts...SOME direct communications...the ones they want us to read.

The incidious thing about Rummie's Military distinguishing communications as being "formal notifications" to NORAD by the FAA is a not-so-clever way for NORAD/Rummie's Military to have more "plausible deniability" and wiggle-room excuses about late notification by the FAA.

Part of the above view certainly has enabled the creation of the three different scenarios that Rummie's NORAD and Military pesented to the 9/11 O'mission. Rummie's Military kept working over thier self imposed "fog" of varying communication and response times until they finally created a sequence that has "plausibly denied" the new ABNORMAL INTERCEPT PROTOCOL sequences that I have noted in this writing. The result of this is that the FAA is now being identified as THE "negligent" links in the chain of this 9/11 fiasco...and NOT Rummie's Military...pretty smooth set-up I'd say...

BTW...the FAA has never been, never will be, and was not perfect on 9/11...so, don't think that I'm whoring for that group either...my country is in trouble...but just for a while!

Again,I postulate, and my "inside infromation" informs, that the first communications about AA11 to ADC/NORAD were well before the "formal" communications which conformed with Rummie's new protocol and which have been made public.

OK...moving on...

Now, the only information left for Rummie to "control would be found in the "sector tapes" at ZBW and any other FAA CIVILIAN facility involved, and...the direct face-to-face conversations and interviews with the CIVILIAN air traffic controllers working the aircraft, sectors and support positions that day. Have I mentioned the concept of "CIVILIAN" yet?

Now, if you do not know, not only has the FBI/FAA has not releasd all of the pertinent tapes...for understandible reasons...BUT, just recently, The Bush Regime, and its "whorecongress", passed legislation eliminating a federal employee's first amendment rights of free speech IF they become a whistleblower about something improper or illegal going on in their workplace. They can loose their jobs and retirements. HMMMM?

RIGHT HERE AND NOW...you can feel free to call me paranoid because...although Rummie/FAA/FBI has the FAA sector tapes...he didn't have the ZBW and other CIVILIAN controller's voices if one were to become a "whistleblower"!

The Bush Regime passed legislation "specifically" to further shut up the ZBW, other CIVILIAN air traffic controllers, and many other federal employees involved with 9/11...and now he has control of ALL their voices. Mission accomplished!

I trust that we all know that the CIVILIAN controllers have been instructed to "not discuss" anything about 9/11 anyway...the "whistleblower" thing is representing a different process and higher level of censurship...

Love, Peace and Progress...

Robin Hordon




BINGO!
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Ricochet
post Nov 19 2008, 03:56 PM
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100 hours of NORAD tapes.
http://www.governmentattic.org/docs/NORAD-..._9-11_Tapes.pdf
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dMz
post Feb 23 2009, 11:35 PM
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Although we might need to split the NORAD from the FAA-specific stuff about at Rico's post above, here is a site that I recently found on the "stand down" aspects (which should maybe be a 3rd thread since I didn't find one, but let's leave it here for now).

http://standdown.net/

Rivero's site had a couple of pages on this too.

EDIT: Somewhat related threads are here:

Payne Stewart's Lear Crash Timeline, Things that make you go HHHhhmmmm
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=13656

67 Scrambles: Myth Or Reality?, Question for USAF pilots
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=15743
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Obwon
post Dec 27 2009, 08:13 PM
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From what I've read about air traffic controllers, their control rooms etc., and gov't/military computer controlled tracking systems. It always seemed to me, that the moment the first flight deviated from it's flight plan -- no less went out of touch and/or turned off it's transponder -- there would be system wide controlled pandemonium. Pandemonium such that only the most deeply ingrained/trained responses would kick in.

I'd have expected to see in every corner, people reaching out to make the necessary notifications, seek out the necessary help and otherwise following the "textbook" basic requirements, that lay the foundations needed if control of any type were to be gained of the situation.

These are huge craft weighing dozens of tons, loaded with thousands of gallons of fuel, hundreds of passengers, flying over populated land at many hundreds of feet per second. Therefore, any system that portends to provide any order, has to have the ability to respond to any deviations in milliseconds if possible. Humans are just not capable of moving that fast, so their systems make up for the slowness with training. Training that allows "reflexive" responses to "disorder", such that little thinking is required, but that the correct proceedures are almost automatically engaged at the earliest.

So, when I say "pandemonium" I mean a pandemonium of trained reflexive responses kicking in all over the place, as people attempt to provide the redundancies and support that the front liners need.

So any vision that there might have been some lacksadaisical performance anywhere, just didn't and doesn't cut it for me. I never brought into the "we were looking outwards" bunk, and what has been said on this thread confirms it. Thus I'm allowed now to believe, that they've covered over the controlled panic-driven-attempts-to-get-the-job-done, with balderdash altered/cherry picked records. Therefore it's time to consider more reasonable alternative theories.

If they'd like the consideration of alternative theories to stop, then they've got to give the answers needed to stop it.

Obwon
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albertchampion
post Dec 28 2009, 12:49 AM
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i cannot speak with complete certainty, and i haven't flown the northeast corridor in decades. the last time i did was in a b model baron from bos to lga. in the morning. very scary. that corridor is filled with aircraft.

so, think on the morning of 11 september 2001. two runaway aircraft flying into the most densely aircrafted airspace in the world. someone[s] had to clear a lot of aircraft out of that airspace so that the "hijacked" aircraft could proceed unimpacted[so to speak].

do i see that situation accurately?

if i do, where are the pilots that were vectored out of the way?

additionally, some months ago, the atlantic published an article that purported to be a recapitulation of new york control's communications on that day.

and somehow, i don't buy into that story.

as i recall, far's dictate that controller audio tapes be retained for 14 days. if they are not subpoenaed, then they are returned to recording and the previous recording is overwritten[i.e., erased].

i don't recall any entity securing those controller audio tapes. i do recall a story where a new york control supervisor destroyed them, however.

would anyone out there educate me further on this score?
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bobcat46
post Dec 29 2009, 12:11 PM
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albertchampion:

You are correct about the controller supervisor destroying all the tapes. That just didn't make sense because the 9/11 Commission was already starting their investigation. Also, the tapes would have normally been retained so that they could be reviewed to see what mistakes were made and what the system could do in the future to make things better.

The ONLY reason to destroy the tapes was to hide evidence. Same reason that the video tapes from the Pentagon have not been released. Same reason that they did not let independent investigators examine and take samples from the steel beams from the WTC. Same reason that not one part serial number for any part from any of the four planes were not cross-checked with airframe records at the airline or at Boeing.
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Twocky61
post Yesterday, 03:29 AM
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QUOTE (Ricochet @ Nov 19 2008, 07:56 PM) *


Thanks for posting NORAD tapes Ricochet thumbsup.gif

There is footage on YT but only the 1hr 30min from Cleveland Centre losing contact with AAL 77 to the point where US Military are instructed to engage with any non-complying aircraft

Thanks again thumbsup.gif

This post has been edited by Twocky61: Yesterday, 03:33 AM
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