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FAA Transcripts, AA77 - NYTimes

rob balsamo
post Aug 13 2006, 06:50 PM
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Discrepencies found with FOIA Transcripts courtesy of Russell Pickering.

8:12:29 — AAL77: Good morning ground American seven seven is off of dixie twenty six with information tango.

8:12:36 — Ground Control West: American 77 Dulles taxi to runway three zero.

8:12:39 — AAL77: Taxi three zero American seven seven.

8:16:01 — Local Control West: American 77, Dulles tower. Runway three zero taxi into position and hold you'll be holding for landing traffic one left and for spacing wake turbulence spacing behind the DC 10.

8:16:29 — AAL77: And American ah seven seven is ready.

8:16:32 — Local Control West: American 77, Dulles tower. Runway three zero. Taxi into position and hold you're holding for wake turbulence landing traffic one left and you need to be fifteen in trail of that DC 10.

8:16:41 — AAL77: Position and hold three zero, American seven seven.

8:19:20 — Local Control West: American 77 your departure frequency will be one two five point zero five. Runway three zero cleared for take off.

8:19:27 — AAL77: One two five oh five. Runway three zero cleared for takeoff, American 77.

8:20:26 — Local Control West: American 77, turn left heading two seven zero contact departure.

8:20:31 — AAL77: Two seventy heading departure, American 77. Good day.

8:20:38 — AAL77: Is with you passing one decimal one for three.

8:20:43 — North Departure: American 77, Dulles departure radar. Contact climb and maintain five thousand.

8:20:47 — AAL77: Five thousand, American 77.

8:22:05 — North Departure: American 77 climb and maintain one one thousand eleven thousand.

8:22:08 — AAL77: up to one one thousand American 77.

8:23:23 — North Departure: American 77 (whistling sound) cleared cleared direct linden contact Dulles one one eight point six seven.

8:23:28 — AAL77: direct linden eighteen sixty seven American 77 good day

8:23:28 — North Departure Low: O.K. O.K. O.K.

8:23:34 — Radar Control: Got the board there already

8:23:36 — North Departure Low: All right we got normal frequencies all the way around nothing hot at this time. Ah, traffic where is this where is this go one twenty-eight where the hell is that? O.K., O.K.

8:23:43 — AAL77: American 77 with you passing nine decimal one for eleven one one thousand.

8:23:47 — North Departure: American 77 Dulles approach climb and maintain one seven thousand.

8:23:50 — AAL77: one seven thousand American 77.

8:23:55 — North Departure Low: O.K., alright. Point outs at this time you got seven lima vector direct d c a seven thousand november zero nine romeo is at five thousand he's already talking to north north sees the traffic, he's going to climb do whatever he has to do. American 77 is direct linden climbing to eleven switched and gone one tango seven is a point out to manassas seven nine xray's been pointed out to west he's at six thousand on going to join victor one sixty eight other than that that's all you have.

8:24:23 — Radar Control: I got it.

8:25:33 — NH: American 77 contact Washington center one two zero point six five good luck.

8:25:37 — AAL77: point six five American 77 thank you ma'am good day.

8:25:49 — AAL77: center American 77 with you passing one three decimal zero for one seven thousand.

8:25:57 — Controller 5: American 77 Washington center roger climb and maintain flight level two seven zero.

8:26:00 — AAL77: two seven zero American 77.

8:30:38 — Controller 5: American 77 contact Washington center one three three point two seven.

8:30:42 — AAL77: ah thirty three twenty seven American 77.

8:31:08 — AAL77: (unintelligible) American 77 passing two five decimal one for two seven oh. [3 second time difference between transcripts]

8:31:23 — Controller 3: American 77 ah climb climb and maintain flight level two niner zero sir.

8:31:30 — AAL77: two niner zero American 77.

8:34:16 — Controller 3: American 77 turn twenty degrees right vector for your climb.

8:34:17 — Controller 3: American 77 turn twenty degrees right vector for your climb. [repeat of above]

8:34:19 — AAL77: turn twenty right American 77.

8:37:33 — Controller 3: American 77 recleared direct Charleston climb and maintain cor correction recleared direct Henderson sir climb and maintain flight level three niner zero.

8:37:39 — AAL77: direct Henderson out of two nine for three nine oh requesting three five zero for a final American 77.

8:37:57 — AAL77: center American 77 you copy request for three five zero as a final. [2 second time difference between transcripts]

8:38:03 — AAL77: three five zero for a final American 77 thank you sir.

8:39:30 — Controller 3: American 77 amend your altitude maintain flight level three three zero for traffic.

8:39:36 — AAL77: American 77 stop at three three zero.

8:39:52 — Washington Air Route Traffic Control Center in Leesburg, Va: so who wants to talk to American 77 Bobcat or Henderson.

8:40:03 — Controller 3: American 77 contact Indy center one two zero point two seven.

8:40:06 — AAL77: twenty five seven American 77 thanks sir good day.

8:40:14 — AAL77: center American 77 with you level three three zero. [1 second time difference]

8:40:16 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy center roger sqauwk three seven four three. [1 second time difference]

8:40:18 — AAL77: three seven four three American 77. [1 second time difference]

8:43:52 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 climb and maintain flight level three five zero. [1 second time difference]

8:43:54 — AAL77: thirty three for three five oh American 77.

8:47:20 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 turn ten degrees to the right vectors for traffic. [4 seconds difference. It also appers this direction is responsible for the "handle" seen in the outbound flight path.]

8:47:23 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 turn ten degrees to the right vectors for traffic. [Duplicate entry to above.]

8:47:23 — AAL77: ten right American 77. [3 second difference.]

8:47:33 — AAL77: ten right American 77. [Duplicate entry to above.]

8:50:48 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 cleared direct um Falmouth. [1 second difference.]

8:50:51 — AAL77: uh direct Falmouth American 77 thank you. ["Thanks" vs. "Thank you". LAST TRANSMISSION FROM AA77.]

8:56:32 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy.

8:56:46 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy.

8:56:53 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 American Indy radio check how do you read. [They left out the radio check part here.]

8:57:12 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 American Indy radio check how do you read.

8:57:28 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American alt 77 American radio check how do you read. [1 second time difference.]

8:57:35 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: override beeping.

8:57:35 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar: this is uh — Indianapolis Control, Dacos.

8:57:38 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar: this is uh — Indianapolis Control, Dacos.

8:57:55 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: override line beeping.

8:57:59 — Controller 3: American 77 roger maintain flight level three five zero show that as your final.

8:58:08 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: outside line ringing8:58:14 — AAL: American dispatch Jim McDonnell.

[8:58:16 entry from NTSB transcript missing here]

8:58:19 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: this is indianapolis center trying to get a hold of American 77.

[8:58:20 entry from NTSB transcript missing here]

8:58:23 — AAL: uh Indys hang on one second please.

8:58:25 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: what?

8:58:26 — AAL: hang on one second sir.

8:58:28 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: all right.

8:58:30 — AAL: who ya trying to get a hold of.

8:58:31 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: American 77.

8:58:32 — AAL: O.K.

8:58:33 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: on frequency one two zero point two seven.

8:58:35 — AAL: one two zero.

8:58:36 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: point two seven we were talking to him and all of a sudden it just uh — .

8:58:38 — AAL O.K., all right we'll get a hold of him for ya.

8:58:40 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: all right.

8:58:41 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American ah 77 Indy ah center how do you read.

8:58:51 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy radio check how do you read.

[8:59:32 entry from NTSB transcript missing here]

9:00:25 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy.

9:00:29 — AAL2493: center American ah twenty four ninety three.

9:00:31 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American twenty four ninety three go ahead.

9:00:33 — AAL2493: yeah we uh sent a message to dispatch to have him come up on twenty twenty seven is that what you want em to do.

9:00:41 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: yeah we had em on west side of our airspace and they went into coast and ah don't have a track on em and now he's not talking to me so we don't know exactly what happened to him. We're trying to get a hold of him we also contacted your company so thanks for the help.

9:00:51 — AAL2493: all right.

[9:00:56 dual entries from NTSB transcript missing here]

9:01:50 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: over ride line beeping.

9:02:00 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: outside line ringing.

9:02:07 — AAL: American dispatch Jim McDonnel.

9:02:09 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: yeah this is indianapolis center we uh I don't know if I'm talking to the same guy about American 77.

9:02:13 — AAL: yeah I cell called him but I did not get a reply back from him.

9:02:17 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: we uh we lost track control of the guy he's in coast track but we haven't we don't where his target is and we can't get a hold of him um you guys tried him and no response.

9:02:26 — AAL: no response (background noise).

9:02:28 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: yeah we have no radar contact and uh no communications with him so if you guys could try again.

9:02:35 — AAL: we're doing it.

9:02:37 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: all right thanks a lot.

9:02:38 — AAL: we're doing it thank you.

9:03:07 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy. [1 second difference]

9:06:20 — Indianapolis Control: override line beeping.

9:06:21 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: Falmouth Decos.

9:06:22 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: this is henderson American seventy seven do you guys have radar on him is he over falmouth or - .

9:06:25 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: no we just moved the track there we never you know.

9:06:27 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: O.K. all right you just have the track out there.

9:06:29 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: you guys never been able to raise him at all.

9:06:31 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: no we called company they can't even get a hold of him so there's no no uh no radio communications and no radar.

9:06:36 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: and his last clearance as far as you know is on course to falmouth and then jay one thirty four right well we're just gonna treat him like non radar and we've already told the next sector they're gonna have to sterilize for him until we find out.

9:06:49 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: O.K. thanks.

9:06:50 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: ID.

9:08:43 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: override line beeping.

9:08:54 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: line ringing.

9:09: 27: AAL: and it was a Boston-L.A. flight and 77 is a Dulles-L.A. flight and uh we've had an unconfirmed report a second airplane just flew into the World Trade Center.

9:09:00 — AAL: American dispatch Jim McDonnel.

9:09:02 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector radar associate: Indianapolis Center did you get a hold of American 77 by chance?

9:09:05 — AAL: no sir but we have an unconfirmed report the second airplane hit the World Trade Center and exploded.

9:09:10 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: say again.

9:09:11 — AAL: you know we lost American eleven to a highjacking American was off . . . boston to los angeles flight.

9:09:17 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: it was all right i can't really I can't hear what you're saying there you said American eleven.

9:09:23 — AAL: yes we were hijacked.

9:09:25 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: and it — .

9:09:27 — AAL: and it was a Boston-L.A. flight and 77 is a Dulles-L.A. flight and uh we've had an unconfirmed report a second airplane just flew into the World Trade Center.

9:09:42 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: thank you very much good bye.

9:10:30 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: calls Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate line beeps.

9:10:32 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: Indianapolis Control, Dacos.

9:10:34 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: all right this is Henderson there was an American eleven departed off of uh New York goinh to L.A. got hijacked American 77 departed off of Dulles is going to L.A. dispatch doesn't know where he's at and confirmed that two airplanes have been uh they crashed into uh the world trade center in New York so as far as American 77 we don't know where he is but they say uh American eleven was hijacked off of a new york airport going to lax and uh - .

9:11:07 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos PA: but we don't have a track on him.

9:11:07 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: affirmative.

9:11:10 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: you mean like they just took off without a clearance.

9:11:13 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: no you mean American eleven.

9:11:14 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: yep.

9:11:15 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: he he's depart well I guess he did because he was goin to L.A.

9:11:17 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: but nobody ever tracked American eleven is what I'm asking.

9:11:20 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: don't know that I don't.

9:11:22 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: oh O.K.

9:11:23 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: know just where he left from or uh.

9:11:25 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: there's no flight plan in the machine right now and - .

9:11:28 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: yeah I just looked at that, too.

9:11:29 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: I'm.

9:11:30 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: as far as what we know that's that's all we know I talked to dispatch and that's what they relayed and they confirmed it here that I guess two airplanes about crashed into the the trade center.

9:11:37 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: huh?

9:11:39 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: all right.

9:11:40 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: oh.

9:11:40 — Indianapolis Control, Dacos Radar Associate: oh.

9:13:54 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: override line beeping.

9:14:04 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: line ringing.

9:14:37 — AAL: American dispatch Jim McDonnel.

9:14:39 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: Indy center here.

9:14:40 — AAL: yes sir.

9:14:42 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: American eleven you guys said he departed off of uh New York.

9:14:45 — AAL: Boston.

9:14:46 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: Boston he was going to L.A. and it was a hijacked airplane.

9:14:49 — AAL: yes.

9:14:50 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: and you have you heard anything from American 77.

9:14:52 — AAL: no.

9:14:52 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: O.K. and if.

9:14:53 — AAL: I talked to a winder in the center up there and I gave em them the information I got.

9:14:55 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: O.K. thanks a lot.

9:14:56 — AAL: O.K.

9:14:57 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar Associate: all right.
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calcas
post Oct 17 2006, 02:18 PM
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I'm an ex-controller.

What's the discrepency?
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rob balsamo
post Oct 17 2006, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (Calcas @ Oct 17 2006, 02:18 PM)
I'm an ex-controller.

What's the discrepency?

Hi Calcas and welcome.

The above transcript has the discrepencies in brackets. I think it was a discrepency between two seperate reports but for some reason when i moved it over here its not explained very well by Russ at the top. I think i may have cut off the top by mistake when i moved it from another forum. That forum is down now so i can no longer get the full quote. My apologies for any confusion.

Either way... at least the transcript is there...
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calcas
post Oct 17 2006, 02:44 PM
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I can't address the "time delays".

As far as,

8:34:16 — Controller 3: American 77 turn twenty degrees right vector for your climb.

8:34:17 — Controller 3: American 77 turn twenty degrees right vector for your climb. [repeat of above]

Being a pilot, you know it's not unusual to hear control instructions repeated. Usually it's because another pilot was attempting to speak at the same time and the controller wants to make sure the original instructions were heard.
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rob balsamo
post Oct 17 2006, 02:50 PM
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agreed. The above "discrepencies" are not my analysis, they were done by Russ Pickering. He isnt a pilot.
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Truthseekers
post Oct 17 2006, 11:07 PM
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I remember hearing one of the hijacked planes/controller recordings made, not sure what flight it was though, but I do remember something said along the lines of 'is this a drill' and the reply was 'no it is for real', or something along those lines. I remember thinking to myself how slow this was and how many times it had to verified it was for real and not a drill.

Is it normal for a controller to sound dumb?. I mean no disrespect to controllers, they do a massive job and do it well, and they are not dumb people worthy.gif , I mean it in context to being so slow to realising what was going off at that time.
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calcas
post Oct 18 2006, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Truthseekers @ Oct 18 2006, 03:07 AM)
I remember hearing one of the hijacked planes/controller recordings made, not sure what flight it was though, but I do remember something said along the lines of 'is this a drill' and the reply was 'no it is for real', or something along those lines. I remember thinking to myself how slow this was and how many times it had to verified it was for real and not a drill.

Is it normal for a controller to sound dumb?. I mean no disrespect to controllers, they do a massive job and do it well, and they are not dumb people  worthy.gif , I mean it in context to being so slow to realising what was going off at that time.

I can count on one hand the number of controllers who I have met that someone might classify as "dumb"...and they were older guys who were still working traffic at a level 1 tower in some hick town.

"Drills" of this type are very rare. There is too much at stake since "live" traffic is always being worked and the possibility that it could disrupt the smooth, orderly, and SAFE flow of Air Traffic isn't worth the risk.

I would guess the controller involved was almost in a state of shock. As in, "I can't believe this is really happening...and it's happening to ME." He (or she) might also just have used the line as a way to gather his thoughts and remember training that may have been given years ago.

Also remember that prior to 9/11, when you thought of a hijacking it was of the sort "Take me to Cuba." Somebody would be squawking 7500 and other than clearing other traffic out of the way there wasn't much a controller was expected to do.
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rob balsamo
post Oct 18 2006, 08:56 AM
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Calcas... what facility did you work for?

Im a former Blue Ridger as well as kingair001.
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jimbo
post Oct 25 2006, 10:29 PM
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I'll back up Calas and what he says. I've worked many jobs in the FAA. I've worked the QA job before, done accident incident investigations, pulled tapes, radar, interviewed controllers, and furnished data and worked with the NTSB. That includes making the actual transcripts used by the NTSB and everyone else. It takes some work to do a transcript. You have to repeatedly listen to things over and over. Rewind, ask others what they hear. Sometimes you simply have to write "unintelligeable." The posting here isn't a verbatim FAA transcript. Not saying anyone is lying or misrepresenting, someone probably typed this in using a transcript of sorts. You're not allowed to use capital letters, exclamation points and other punctuation in a transcripts because they don't want people putting their own impressions into the transcripts. The other thing a bit odd is it the repeated term "Indianapolis control." Admittedly, I haven;t done a transcript for over 11 years and I work on the west side of the US and places can vary a bit in the way they do business but in general you;re usually specific about the type of facility. Center, or TRACON, or Tower. So I guess I'm saying that maybe the writeup here doesn't actually represent the transcript verbatim and their may be a few errors.

That said, I haven't had time to read it thoroughly but and far as scanning over it, nothing seems out of the ordinary to me. The content seems pretty typical. Controllers do talk with disbelief, they do ask for repeated clarification. And if I had a dime for every time I've had to repeat a transmission 2, 3, 4 times I could have retired years ago. You get radios that don't work. Pilots not paying attention (no offense), pilots who never got switched to your frequency. Really it is so common that people do it every grinding day over and over.

There's nothing sinister I can see and as Calas said nothing that reflects incompetence. The very best top notch controllers in the nation could have said the same things. Controllers are guys who go home like everyone else at the end of the day and talk just like everyone else. I worked at Fort Worth Center on two specialties. You've got guys who made their way there from across the nation...along with those native Texans and just because you're a controller who is supposed to use standard phraseology, don't think for a minute that culture, accents, and personality don't bleed into your workday.

I've visited Indy, watched some of the traffic, very busy facility there, very complex..(almost as complex as Fort Worth...lol...j/k, sorry guys). No dummies there...you've got levels of incompetence in every line of work but if you haven't got what it takes, you can't last forever. It's a hell of a job and it doesn't translate into any other job. You have the innate ability or you don't.

You've gotta undrstand, I don't think there is a controller in the nation that has worked since I came onboard with the FAA 24 years ago that has ever worked an aircraft that purposely few into a building. There are somewhere around 10,000 controllers nationwide and only a handful of them have ever even worked an aircraft that flew into a building...purposely or otherwise. And no controller has ever worked an event on the scale of 9/11. I was there that day. I was sitting in on teleconferences with managers across the nation. I was in the control room. Everyone was in shock. Controllers, supervisors, managers, technicians. Everyone. We were trained for national emergencies. But not of this kind. Calas is dead on here and I know a controller when I hear one.

On just the topic of ATC, I do have a couple of things I'm not quite clear concerning that day, but nothing huge. I certainly don;t know everything, I don't have time to delve into everything. I would make more time if something really tweaked me. But I just don't have alarm after alarm going off in my head. This is probably why you don't get a lot of controllers on boards, asking questions, giving opinions. Outside of the controller stuff, I do have questions. Believe me, I sure as hell don't trust the very top level of government.

I've heard a number of misconceptions put forward on 9/11 concerning aviation and air traffic control by so called professionals. I haven't read all the stuff over at scholars for truth but I did read the conclusions of one professor (?). He was so far out of the ballpark about how things really work in the air traffic system that the whole scholars for truth site turned me off. That;s probably what most controllers do. They pop in, read conspiracy theories, shake their heads, maybe on accasion even laugh then pass everything off as crazy. I did that for 4 or 5 years but hearing a few things on subjects I know nothing about, it piqued my curiosity. And every passing day, watching the corruption and incompetence of government has made me get a little more inquisitive. I don;t close the door on anything at this point in time.

Just as I'm not a pilot, I'd never presume to tell other pilots how to fly an aircraft. Maybe a nudge every now and then from repeated experience when a pilot is in the middle of confusion and has too much going on all at once. For example, you get a single prop who climbs to 15,000 msl to get over some mountain peaks and the guy talks a bit loopy or drunk like, you learn to ask him if he's on oxygen. Little stuff like that. Airspeed doesn't jive, "maybe the pitot tube is frozen and obstructed." Silly stuff and most controllers are hacks when it comes to flying. But we see repeated problems, we hear the reports afterwards, eventually you catch on to a few things.

The problem I see with some sites that paint conspiracy with huge broad brushes is that they immediately jump on everything and refuse to discount anything. You can't just compile info from all the talk and speculation and pick and choose what you want to believe. You'll never get to the truth that way and all you end up doing is stroking your own ego or confirming what you want to believe. I posted on another board and got shut down with the first post. Even with 24 years of experience and having worked many positions in the FAA. They didn't want to hear anything that didn't agree with their position. That approach will never get them close to the truth. They'll end up scattering their resources to the wind and chase down blind alleys forever. They lose credibility with every misstep. You have to let some things go and focus on the unexplained. I'm not drawing conclusions here, I don't like this administration any more than anyone else. But the firther you go down the chain of command, sometimes incompetence is mistaken as conspiracy. Incompetence is a story in and of itself and it;s a deep rabbit hole...believe me. People in this country are in as much danger from incompetence and negligence as they are with conspiracy. I saw plenty to go around that day and plenty every day since.

Sorry, just rambling. If I get time to post a couple of things I will. That is if anyone wants to hear them. Intercepts and NORAD. Cell phones. Destroyed tapes by the manager who interviewed controllers. Global missions. I'm not claiming to know everything here, just have a persective to give like everyone else. I've also got questions like everyone else.

QUOTE (Truthseekers @ Oct 18 2006, 03:07 AM)
I remember hearing one of the hijacked planes/controller recordings made, not sure what flight it was though, but I do remember something said along the lines of 'is this a drill' and the reply was 'no it is for real', or something along those lines. I remember thinking to myself how slow this was and how many times it had to verified it was for real and not a drill.

Is it normal for a controller to sound dumb?. I mean no disrespect to controllers, they do a massive job and do it well, and they are not dumb people  worthy.gif , I mean it in context to being so slow to realising what was going off at that time.

I can count on one hand the number of controllers who I have met that someone might classify as "dumb"...and they were older guys who were still working traffic at a level 1 tower in some hick town.

"Drills" of this type are very rare. There is too much at stake since "live" traffic is always being worked and the possibility that it could disrupt the smooth, orderly, and SAFE flow of Air Traffic isn't worth the risk.

I would guess the controller involved was almost in a state of shock. As in, "I can't believe this is really happening...and it's happening to ME." He (or she) might also just have used the line as a way to gather his thoughts and remember training that may have been given years ago.

Also remember that prior to 9/11, when you thought of a hijacking it was of the sort "Take me to Cuba." Somebody would be squawking 7500 and other than clearing other traffic out of the way there wasn't much a controller was expected to do.
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jimbo
post Oct 25 2006, 10:36 PM
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pardon my spelling, I do know how to spell, I'm just not an accurate typer yet and I don't like spending too much time going back over what I write. Just as long as the message gets across is ok with me smile.gif
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jimbo
post Oct 25 2006, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (johndoeX @ Oct 18 2006, 12:56 PM)
Calcas... what facility did you work for?

Im a former Blue Ridger as well as kingair001.

A blue ridger eh? Fellow controller from ZFW? Slowdessa and Frankston for me back in the day. It was a great place when I was there. Not many great places to work anymore...this administration is tearing the system apart and beating on the guys who actually make the system work...unbelievable...and sad.
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rob balsamo
post Oct 30 2006, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (jimbo @ Oct 25 2006, 09:39 PM)
QUOTE (johndoeX @ Oct 18 2006, 12:56 PM)
Calcas... what facility did you work for?

Im a former Blue Ridger as well as kingair001.

A blue ridger eh? Fellow controller from ZFW? Slowdessa and Frankston for me back in the day. It was a great place when I was there. Not many great places to work anymore...this administration is tearing the system apart and beating on the guys who actually make the system work...unbelievable...and sad.

not a controller.. pilot..

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NJcpaTOM
post Nov 2 2006, 06:28 AM
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QUOTE (johndoeX @ Aug 13 2006, 10:50 PM)
8:25:57 — Controller 5: American 77 Washington center roger climb and maintain flight level two seven zero.

8:26:00 — AAL77: two seven zero American 77.

8:30:38 — Controller 5: American 77 contact Washington center one three three point two seven.

8:30:42 — AAL77: ah thirty three twenty seven American 77.

8:31:08 — AAL77: (unintelligible) American 77 passing two five decimal one for two seven oh. [3 second time difference between transcripts]

8:31:23 — Controller 3: American 77 ah climb climb and maintain flight level two niner zero sir.


You aviators have it all over us CPA's. I haven't got the hang of operating this software yet but I'll get there.

I am neither a pilot nor a controller. I am a forensic accountant.
I would like to ask a question or 2 if you don't mind.

I noticed at 8:25:57 & 8:30:38 Controller 5 is talking to the aircraft and is informing 77 to contact Washington at 133.27 which 77 does at 8:30:42, according to this transcript. They would still be at flight level 270 that was reached at 8:26:00 - correct ?

The next entry is at 8:31:08 and contains ((unintelligible)) and "passing two five decimal one for two seven oh".
At 8:31:23 Controller 3 tells 77 to climb climb to 290.

This last entry smells fishy to me. Are (uninteligble)s common in transcripts ?

And why if they were already at 270 at 8:30:42 would they be "passing 25 decimal one for 270" at 8:31:08 ?

There is also a new Controller involved and this is the first of the differences between the two Transcripts.

I just thought I would point out what caught my attenion when reading the Transcript.
Thanks for posting it.

I'd next check the flight path to find out where they were when they lost contact and what airfields are nearby. Didn't it go to east side of Kansas ?

How did Indianapolis get involved?

I'm confused. doh1.gif

This post has been edited by NJcpaTOM: Nov 2 2006, 11:34 AM
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Robin Hordon
post Dec 3 2006, 06:34 AM
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Robin Hordon...ex ATC and former pilot checking in...

I have broken down many audio tapes for the FAA when I worked there quite a few years back and this is what bothers me about these transcripts. I see it as a selected set of conversations provided to the public...and not ALL the taped conversations at the ATC sectors. To me, the FEDS are carefully creating an "interesting public story", with excitement and the like, that will show the public ONLY what the FED wants the public to know.

I have run an interscept myself [a real world REAL save], worked hijacked aircraft where bombs were on board back when it was a barganing tool or a trip to Havana, and I have witnessed my next door buddies who had "stuff" happen to AC under their control "scramble fighters"..some needed, some not needed.

And here is the REAL STORY...

Its NOT the pilot-controller conversations that are awfully significant...

What IS significant are the voluminous "inter-sector" and "inter-facility" communications that are required IMMEDIATELY to get the "rescue teams"...[whatever profile they might be], engaged as soon as possible.

In the events surrounding AA11, [which is MY target for exposing ALL], the REAL DEAL would be the actions taken by the radar controller in contacting ADC/NORAD, other sector controllers for frequency checks, verbal coordination with area supervisors who begin parallel communications with all the pertinent facilities...etc., etc., etc. Been there-done that...hair REALLY gets on fire.

Imagine the actions of a fire house crew, a swat team, an ambukance group for a big accident. The pros get to work, get to work fast, and they know how to do it.

However, none of this came out of the aforementioned tapes...except...the incredulity of the associate controllers and perhaps AAL's home base.

Here is the clue showing manipulation that I see in this transcript...check it out...I'm not gonna refer to specific times...no need to.

The FAA allows an exciting story to flow from AA77's flight from push-back to lost contact and focuses early mostly upon pilot-controller conversations all the way to lost radio contact. Then...

Once the radar controller actually looses contact with AA77, most of the transcript switches to inter-sector and inter-facility communications between the ASSISTANT controller ond others.

Wouldn't you like to know what the REAL radar controller was doing while he was trying to regain radio contact with AA11 when he wasn't talking on the radio? Do you think he was just sitting there not reaching out to other controllers, other facilities, other personnel...or forgetting to check his radar settings and NOT switching in the "primary" radar in hopes of finding this missing craft?

I'll tell ya one of the things this guy was doing...he was all over ADC/NORAD asking them if they see anything in the vicinity...like a HIGH SPEED PRIMARY TARGET at a high altitude

[apparently, ADC/NORAD can get approximate altitude "informed guestimates" from their primary radar...its a North American Radar Air Defense Command thing...most Soviet bombers wouldn't be squawking "friendly" dontcha think?]

Now, IF the FAA had released ALL the inner sector transcripts, we would see/read those words spoken to all those other folks surrounding the crisis...and mightn't THAT be embarrassing for ADC/NORAD to have the FIRST REAL TIME notifications written down for everyone to see...and for the contacts to b earlir than their "official" time lines?

I postulate that there were many "informal" conversations between the CIVILIAN ATC and the ADC/NORAD "real time" controllers...and that these contacts were made before what's been put on the record by Rummie's NORAD...and they did it THREE DIFFERENT TIMES...and they created THREE DIFFERENT STORIES!

Finally,the last story was close enough to answer the SOFTBALL Qs asked by the SOFTBALLERS on the 9/11 OMMISION team.

Please remember, NORAD records all its sectors, radio freqs and positions... and ...the FAA records all its sectors, radio freqs and positions...so there are always TWO sides recorded in the ATC/NORAD dialogues. Y'all know about the CVR portion of this story...nuff said about that.

So, with all due respect to those "not seeing anything out of the ordinary" who have already posted, I see selected conversations steering curious "average citizens" away from what really went on...and towards a "riveting story line".

Needless to say, I want ALL the inner sector tapes and spoken word conversations [as best they can remember] between EVERYBODY involved as the CIVILIAN ATC system revved up to deal with these crises.

I'm open to defend my perceptions for sure...but in the end, I truly believe that anyone with any feel for this part of 9/11 certainly sees that its important to have ALL the available information...including direct testimony and sworn statements by the ATC personnel involved. Wonder where THAT information is right now?

LOCKED DOWN...that's where...

Love, Peace and Progress...

Robin Hordon
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rob balsamo
post Dec 3 2006, 07:04 AM
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Robin Hordon everyone. Former Boston Center Air Traffic Controller.

Welcome to the forums Robin! Great to have you here!

Rob

(ps. spoke to Andy last night. Check your email for his... cheers!)
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p.w.rapp
post Dec 3 2006, 07:32 AM
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Welcome aboard Robin!

Absolutely stunning post of yours!!!

I've spoken to a (sceptic) ATC controller some time ago, and I now understand what he really meant by saying (about the NORAD exercises on 9/11 - 'is this real or exercise...'):
There is no way, the ATC-personnel in charge with the related sectors that day (i.e.Boston Center) would NOT have known, what was being pulled off on 9/11.

My 2 (Euro-)Cents: There are some ATC-people out there, who have connected the dots (at the latest in the days AFTER 9/11 and most probably after heated exchange of information with their collegues).
There are some people out there, who are not in complicity with the perps, but who have been able to see through part of the 9/11 scam and how it was staged.

Let us hope, that at least ONE of them overcomes their fear and feels, that "going along to get along doesn't make much sense" (quote: Kevin Ryan in Berkeley, Cal)

*pilot hope*

Z.


[EDIT] above example "(i.e.Boston Center)" given BEFORE reading preceding post JDX!!!

This post has been edited by Zapzarap: Dec 3 2006, 07:35 AM
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Cary
post Dec 3 2006, 03:50 PM
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Welcome to the forum Robin Hordon. Excellent posts from you so far.
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Robin Hordon
post Dec 4 2006, 04:27 PM
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To ALL...

If 9/11 was an inside deal it HAD to be pulled off by Rummie's military and within several differing agencies and departments within the military itself. When focusing on the "airliner" part of 9/11, Rummie had only one major problem because he could manage to do anything he wanted within the confines of the various military facilities and personnel. [For example: he got NORAD or someone to schedule all of those excercises that day so as to establish some "plausible deniability" that could be convincing to the public when they asked: "why didn't you shoot them down/".] Similar examples of "plausible deniability" are established all over this event.

Here's Rummie's achilles heels....

CIVILIANS...

CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES...they are what Rummie couldn't control, mislead or prevent from doing their job...CIVILIANS!

What to do with the CIVILIAN air traffic conroller system was his problem...because the CIVILIANS are trained to do what they do. A CIVILIAN controller's normal activities are not subject to censure except in a few cases, in fact, if CIVILIAN controllers were to succssfully execute a "save" bringing kudos and great press to the FAA, then the FAA runs with it to pat themselves on the back and they "highlight" the controller teams.

How did Rumie pull this off?

Most know that in June of 2001 Rummie changed the decades old protocols for ADC/NORAD intercept procedures so that the CIVILIAN FAA personell had to first get some form of notification or approval from Rummie's Pentagon or other Military BEFORE the CIVILIAN control staff could reach out immediately to get some action going from ADC/NORAD...ie: scramble some aircraft. Prior to June 2001, the front line CIVILIAN air traffic controller was the first to begin any "save sequence" because he or she would be the first to see or hear about emergencies or troubles in the air [usually just after the piloting crew...but not always].

A short aside here...

[[[ I have heard that the scrambles were on a normal pace up until June 2001 and that the scrambles were significantly "slowed or stopped" after June 2001. Maybe somebody has records about this. In any event, there were now three months of a new frequency of scrambles between June and September 2001 which, again, sets up more "plausible deniabilities" for Rummie's Military.

Saying it a bit differently, Rummie could now say: "Hey it's now normal ops to wait to scramble"...or..."We were rusty and slow because it we hadn't scrambled for CIVILIAN aircraft that much lately." ...then add the coincidental? military excercises..."We had five excercises operating that day."...and the public would buy all of these "stories" as being plausible excuses for NORAD's failure to protect.]]]

Back to procedure...

Therefore, the CIVILIAN controller and the immediate supervisor would be the "trigger" for subsequent "save" activities which, in layman's terms, means that the CIVILIAN radar controller would first VERBALLY notify his/her supervisor who is usually sitting 5-15 feet away, and then IMMEDIATELY reach out to ADC/NORAD observer/controller to point out the troubled aircraft, or to ask help in "seeing" the aircraft if the controller had lost radar contact with it. The Pentagon was not in this call sequence...

This is an important fact for y'all to know...

There are simple direct and open line "push button type" communications capabilities right at the CIVILIAN controller's fingertips at the sector...no red tape no dial up needed...just push a tiny button and TALK!...one second elapsed time...

continuing...and restating...

Before June 2001 there was no requirement for the FAA to reach out to the "PENTAGON" or any other military facility BEFORE reaching out to the ADC/NORAD active radar controller/observer inside NORAD's Facilities...I think that it NEADS in this case...

BTW...the word observer is a better descriptor for the NORAD radar personnel in these matters because they observe aircraft most of the time and only "control" their military aircraft when needed...NOT a put down here. In this entire scenario its good to have some distinctions between the different facilities and aviation related missions and personnel.

Offering a "piloting" example of a third party communication in an emergency:

Putting Rummie's military in between a CIVILIAN controller and an ADC/NORAD controller/observer to ask permission to scramble aircraft to help out in an airbourne emergency would be like a pilot loosing an engine in a Navajo and getting on the radio and calling the Piper Aircraft corporation to ask if its OK to feather the prop, switch off the fuel to the engine, and to trim up the craft, or to do anything else that I'm probably forgetting right now.

WE ALL KNOW THIS...Emergencies happen NOW...and not at the end of supervisory red tape phone calls or lengthy protocols.

Rummie's troubles...

Well, Rummie KNEW what the CIVILIAN controllers would do with the hijackings on 9/11 if things weren't changed...they would get fighters airboure IMMEDIATELY. PERIOD!

Game over, no crashes, no war, no nuthin for his department, nuthin for his president, nuthin for his rich friends who make military gadgets.

Hence, he HAD TO put the Pentagon in between the FAA and the NORAD teams with this change of protocols..

Now, I think that I heard some testimony somewhere that states that the Pentagon/Liason group did not pick up the calls from ZBW who were frantically seeking permission to scramble fighters fter AA11 was in trouble...I don't have copies of this...yet. I also heard that the fighters may have finally been scrambled by the supervisory personnel at ZBW because the ZBW guys KNEW what was supposed to happen as it had always happened before June 2001...and that they were pissed off that Rummie's Military didn't pick up the phone...and that eventually they OVERRODE the new protocol. Again, I remember the testimony, but I don't have any hard copy.

Its worth to remember hat Rummie's Military HAD to not answer the FAA's frantic calls because all of the aircraft had not been hijacked yet...sooooo....Rummie's Military had to burn as much time as they possibly could. In a wierd way, I think that the ZBW supervisory team almost blew the whole deal by the above mentioned OVERRIDE of the pentagon...not sure...just thinkin? This may be a "plausible" reason for the Otis fighters being sent on "whale watch" south of Long Island...aka...Rummie's "plant" inside NEADS had some fighters that he didn't plan for...ahhh, what to do?

Folks may not notice this but, most of the calls between CIVILIAN and Rummie's Military facilities have been separated into only two types: "FORMAL NOTIFICATION"...and "open party lines between everybody"...BTW...the latter being a handy way to get everyone on an unrecorded line...

Few calls are shown as "direct communications" between the CIVILIAN controllers and the NORAD radar observers...which I believe is what happened. HMMMM?

And, as this thread points out, there are indeed "some" direct communications between pilots, controllers, and facilities shown in the transcripts...SOME direct communications...the ones they want us to read.

The incidious thing about Rummie's Military distinguishing communications as being "formal notifications" to NORAD by the FAA is a not-so-clever way for NORAD/Rummie's Military to have more "plausible deniability" and wiggle-room excuses about late notification by the FAA.

Part of the above view certainly has enabled the creation of the three different scenarios that Rummie's NORAD and Military pesented to the 9/11 O'mission. Rummie's Military kept working over thier self imposed "fog" of varying communication and response times until they finally created a sequence that has "plausibly denied" the new ABNORMAL INTERCEPT PROTOCOL sequences that I have noted in this writing. The result of this is that the FAA is now being identified as THE "negligent" links in the chain of this 9/11 fiasco...and NOT Rummie's Military...pretty smooth set-up I'd say...

BTW...the FAA has never been, never will be, and was not perfect on 9/11...so, don't think that I'm whoring for that group either...my country is in trouble...but just for a while!

Again,I postulate, and my "inside infromation" informs, that the first communications about AA11 to ADC/NORAD were well before the "formal" communications which conformed with Rummie's new protocol and which have been made public.

OK...moving on...

Now, the only information left for Rummie to "control would be found in the "sector tapes" at ZBW and any other FAA CIVILIAN facility involved, and...the direct face-to-face conversations and interviews with the CIVILIAN air traffic controllers working the aircraft, sectors and support positions that day. Have I mentioned the concept of "CIVILIAN" yet?

Now, if you do not know, not only has the FBI/FAA has not releasd all of the pertinent tapes...for understandible reasons...BUT, just recently, The Bush Regime, and its "whorecongress", passed legislation eliminating a federal employee's first amendment rights of free speech IF they become a whistleblower about something improper or illegal going on in their workplace. They can loose their jobs and retirements. HMMMM?

RIGHT HERE AND NOW...you can feel free to call me paranoid because...although Rummie/FAA/FBI has the FAA sector tapes...he didn't have the ZBW and other CIVILIAN controller's voices if one were to become a "whistleblower"!

The Bush Regime passed legislation "specifically" to further shut up the ZBW, other CIVILIAN air traffic controllers, and many other federal employees involved with 9/11...and now he has control of ALL their voices. Mission accomplished!

I trust that we all know that the CIVILIAN controllers have been instructed to "not discuss" anything about 9/11 anyway...the "whistleblower" thing is representing a different process and higher level of censurship...

Love, Peace and Progress...

Robin Hordon
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waterdancer
post Dec 5 2006, 03:14 AM
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As far as shutting down the civilian end of things goes-

stonewalling on release of documents

first day on the job for people in key positions including Ben Sliney

Mike Canavan is out of the loop in Puerto Rico on 9/11. Who sent him there on that particular day of all days? Normally he would have been the hijack coordinator, no one can get a straight answer on who, if anyone, was his designate - see the first quote below from the 9/11 Ommission hearings. See also the testimony he gave to the 9/11 Ommission for more interesting reading.

The FAA initiated hijacking teleconference was only periodically monitored by the NMCC. See second quote below from the 9/11 Ommission. Apparently, they were too busy trying to hook the FAA into their teleconference or something... rolleyes.gif

An anonymous FAA Quality Assurance official crushes, cuts up and distributes into several trash cans a tape of ATC's experiences on 9/11, which reportedly had never been listened to, transcribed or duplicated.

I won't even go into the wargames, possible NSSE etc. which were happening. I suspect those might have confused and hindered responses just a wee bit.



QUOTE
MR. GORTON: Mr. Belger, I want to go back to one of Commissioner Gorelick's subjects. You very clearly describe the protocol with respect to hijacking that was in effect on 9/11. But we have a rather troubling note from the staff that I will share with you and ask you to comment on. Most managers at FAA headquarters have little or no recollection of the protocols in place on 9/11 with respect to their roles and responsibilities on a hijacking. With the exception of a few individuals from the Security Division, there appear to be little or no training at FAA headquarters or Command Center regarding hijacking procedures. Indeed, when asked to identify who the hijack coordinator was on 9/11, it was difficult to find two witnesses who identified the same individual.


QUOTE
At about 9:20, security personnel at FAA headquarters set up a hijacking teleconference with several agencies, including the Defense Department. The NMCC officer who participated told us that the call was monitored only periodically because the information was sporadic, it was of little value, and there were other important tasks. The FAA manager of the teleconference also remembered that the military participated only briefly before the Pentagon was hit. Both individuals agreed that the teleconference played no role in coordinating a response to the attacks of 9/11.Acting Deputy Administrator Belger was frustrated to learn later in the morning that the military had not been on the call.188
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behind
post Dec 10 2006, 03:16 PM
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Here is 911 Commission Testimony: Remarks of NORAD Personnel talks about "scramble" and "radar" etc.

It is complicated but very interesting.

For example:
...
"At 8:46, our next log event, we get the last and by the way, much of this radar data for these primary targets was not seen that day. It was reconstructed days later by the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron and other agencies like it who are professionals at going back and looking at radar tapes and then given that they are loaded with knowledge after the fact, they can go and find things that perhaps were not visible during the event itself."

And:

"Now the only thing that I would point out on this chart is that this says 9:43, American Airlines 77 impacts the Pentagon. The timeline on the impact on the Pentagon was changed to 9:37. 9:43 is the time it was reported that day. It was the time we used. And it took about two weeks to discover in the parking lot of the Pentagon this entry camera for the parking lot, which happened to be oriented toward the Pentagon at the time of impact. And the recorded time is 9:37. And that’s why the timeline went from 9:43 to 9:37 because it is the best documented evidence for the impact time that we have."
...
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