What If We Are Gods?, Hypothetically speaking. Options

[Guinan]

That's beautiful Painter! Simple and yet so intricate... I dabbed in painting for a while myself but I could never hope to make anything like this. My teacher once said that if I could find a brush with only one hair, I would use it... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

As for the rest of this thread, I have managed to read through it but I'm afraid it's too complicated for me. I would need to use a dictionary about 10 times in each post and I can't 'read' that way. That's a pity because I think it would be very interesting...

At the moment "Secret Bible' is on Nat.Geo., that's more on my - limited - level. The idea of the Gnostics particularly apeals to me. Even back then there were the 'Neocons' of the Roman Catholic Church, 'eliminating' all other religions and integrating them into Christianity. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus? No way, that was some 'rival-god' who was eradicated and robbed of his birthday. What we celebrate today is to all intentions and purposes the birthday of a heathen god!

That about sums up my idea of the bible and the 'church'. I've always had my doubts, even in sunday-school when I was 8 years old and the teacher asked if I believed or not (propbably evoked by some stupid kid-remark revealing my doubts), and I had to truthfully answer that I didn't know whether I did or not. Since then I have 'grown' my own theories about this matter, but I don't think they would look good in a forum about 'religion' (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd love to see some more of your work Painter, do you have a site where I can see it?

Guinan

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[tocarm]

Dear Painter,

Well now...we have much more in common than you might have thought or think.

Regarding 'mystical experiences' of God, of Christ - I've had mine. And what one can truthfully/honestly/factually say about such Intimate Encounters with both that which is Divine and which concerns the Supernatural is to call those Encounters Of A Divine Kind "Ineffable" as there are no such words within the vocubularies of mankind which have any spoken, written or defined word to relay to another 'creature' the nature/scope/dimension/quality of that Encounter.

Since God is the 'Ultimate Sovereign Spirit', He gets to do exactly what He wants to do, when He wants to do it in a manner or form He so chooses. If God so chooses to directly reveal/make manifest His Divine Love, His Divine Mercy, His Divine Thoughts, His Divine Power, His Divine Presense to the most vile, violent, malicious human individual currently alive on planet earth - He does so and all of the rest of us 6 billion human beings can only look on in wonder, awe and amazement.

Spiritual/mystical encounters of God, of Divinity, of His Supernatural Powers don't "destroy" us a individual persons, as individual beings. We retain our Divinely Endowed being, character, nature - and with these finite, mortal, temporal, human natures we are left with but trying to 'comprehend Something Supernatural' with our mere limited spiritual faculties of a) reason B) intellect & c) imagination.

It is when we personally experience the utter spiritual "poverty" of our spiritual faculties of 'Scient' or 'Consciousness/Awareness' in attempting to come to the intimate personal possession of Such Ultimate Goodness/Desireableness that our next spiritual faculties of 'Presence' and 'Potency' - out of 'Spiritual Reflex', so to speak - react and 'cry out'.

Your experience of finding yourself weeping for an entire day was a day long 'Prayer of the Heart' to the Heart of God. During that time, God "felt" what is in your heart - kinda sorta like two lovers gazing into each other's eyes - not saying a word - but keenly and deeply observing each other and by doing THAT, speak and communicate to each other without words.

Well...I gotta go for now..gotta take care of something that has popped up and needs my attention. Perhaps we shall speak of these sorts of things vis-a-vis doctrinal theology at some time in the future.

- tocarm

[painter]

<s>
I'd love to see some more of your work Painter, do you have a site where I can see it?

Check your PMs (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[painter]

@ tocarm: Yes, "ineffable." We could also employ "numinous" provided the wholly other implication is held open to question.

So far as discussing doctrinal theology, I confess the prospect isn't appealing. I would, however, be interested to hear more in the way of personal self disclosures regarding your experiences and your interest in theology -- especially as this applies to questions surrounding 9/11. You sound as if you could be a priest. Are you?

[Cary]

Damn, Painter. Take care of yourself pal.

[MichaelMR]

I see where you're coming from, Tocarm. It's more of take on the religious part of the topic however.

Both of what you and Painter have said has been food for thought. Its interesting points of views coming from different directions, I appreciate them both.

But what Painter replied to you was correct. My point wasn't about the supernatural god that is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. It was about the ‘creator and his creation’. It is about whether or not god is a metaphor for mans pinnacle. It is about whether or not it is personification of man, as Painter so adequately put it.

I think this could be an accurate description of what my thoughts are. Buddhism believes that man, through enlightenment, can put himself on a level of which god is, spiritually and mentally. Buddhism states and I quote "that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct and wisdom and meditation releases one from desire and suffering and rebirth."

Though I do not agree with all of what the religion teaches, it applies to what I’m saying. So in conclusion, Buddhists believe that once you reach that point of enlightenment, you are on a level that is equivalent with god. Not necessarily that you are god, per se, but that after paying your dues and fulfilling your requirements to attain this level of enlightenment, you become a manifestation of your belief.


On another note, holy hell Painter, it's STILL bleeding? Keep us posted on that. And even if it’s not alcohol, you can still have eggnog. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

MERRY CHRISTMAS PEOPLE! [xmass]

This post has been edited by MichaelMR: Dec 25 2006, 08:52 PM

[tocarm]

Dear Painter,

You asked me a straightforth question to which I'm obliged to give you a straightforth answer...

Regarding theology, mystical experiences and 9-11, how "strange" you should ask!

With your specifically asking me about how they apply to 9-11 - gotta be brutally truthful and honest with you in giving you a satisfactory answer.

It was the during the week of September 11 eight years prior to 9-11-2001 that God graced me/granted me a week's long worth of mystical/religious experiences while I was on a business trip staying at a motel in Evendale, Ohio.

To make a 'week's long worth story short & to the point', the Almighty God and Father of us all charged me with a very specific, to-the-point prophetic mission to and for the entire United States of America - its people and its Government.

While it took me about a week to write out a 23 page letter addressed to the US President, every US Senator, the Members of US Congress as well as the nine US Supreme Court Justices along with the 50 State Governors of the 50 States of the Republic which they all received via the USPS - the very crux, the very essense of the prophetic Message I was charged to deliver to them all was a Divine Ultimatum.

Unless the US Government stopped, halted, forbade, prohibited the widespread practice of ABORTION, this US Nation of ours was going to wind up on the 'Garbage Heap of Nations'!

Within that 23 page letter, I relayed to the elected & appointed officials of our US Federal Government the many "dangers" as well as "disasters" which would befall the United States of America and its 250 or so million citizens. Every last "danger" I was inspired to cite has and is in the process of befalling these United States of America.

We of the United States of America are now heading for such a horrendous military, economic and social collapse - and for the past 8 years I've been doing everything in my own 'powers' to get this US Nation of ours 'turned around' - which might be another way of saying getting this US Nation of ours TO REPENT!

Kind of hard to do THAT when all the officials, elected and appointed, are so throughly CORRUPT and ridden with VICES - so much so that they actually conspire and carry out acts of mass murder against their own fellow US citizens as was the case on 9-11-2001. Then follows all the LIES, LIES and MORE LIES regarding other nations and peoples of this world of ours so as to intiate WARS based on LIES so as to gratify their INSATIBLE VICES such as Hubris, Avarice, Wrath, Sloth, Lust, Jealousy & Envy.

How many times I have turned my mind and heart to our Almighty God and Father in Heaven virtually "spiritually screaming" at Him something along the lines of "Father in Heaven...I have >>HAD IT<< with these people!!" My patience with the whole lot of them...Presidents..Vice Presidents..Senators..Congressmen...State Governors...'fellow US citizens' is gone. Yet God's Divine Patience just seems to endure and endure and endure just a wee bit more and a wee bit longer from this mortal man's POV.

Surely, there must be AT LEAST 10 GOOD PEOPLE left in our US Federal Government who CAN bring this D.C. Criminal Cabal TO JUSTICE so that our US Nation doesn't wind up on the "Divine Trash Heap"!!!

But then again, perhaps there ISN'T "10 good people" anywheres to be found in either our US Federal or State Governments...

So, my dear Painter...you asked a simple, honest question. You got my simple, honest answer.

- tocarm

[tocarm]

Dear MichaelMR,

I got an answer for you, but truth to tell, it's getting late, I'm getting tired and I need to simply take a 'little break' from this more "heavy duty" type of answer composing and writing.

To properly address your question (your 'protest'? <g>), I'm going to have to explain a wee bit about human VICE and human VIRTUE - specifically between that spiritual characteristic known as 'HUBRIS' or 'PRIDE' vis-a-vis that spiritual characteristic known as 'HUMILITY'.

I really believe that once you grasp the markedly profound differences of (and affects on one's human spirit of) HUBRIS and/or HUMILITY, things will become much more clearer and simpler with regards to mankind's notion of "God".

I need to simply take some time to "goof off"!

- tocarm

[Guinan]

[SIZE=1]@ tocarm

While it took me about a week to write out a 23 page letter addressed to the US President, every US Senator, the Members of US Congress as well as the nine US Supreme Court Justices along with the 50 State Governors of the 50 States of the Republic which they all received via the USPS - the very crux, the very essense of the prophetic Message I was charged to deliver to them all was a Divine Ultimatum.

Unless the US Government stopped, halted, forbade, prohibited the widespread practice of ABORTION, this US Nation of ours was going to wind up on the 'Garbage Heap of Nations'!

With all due respect for your beliefs... it took you 23 pages to write that??? Take it from me - they never read all 23 pages !

Also, thank you for throwing my nation on the 'Garbage Heap of Nations'. You won't mind if I don't agree with you will you??

Guinan

.

[painter]

Dear Painter,

You asked me a straightforth question to which I'm obliged to give you a straightforth answer...<s>

Allllllrightyyyy, then. Yes that does explain rather a lot.

Well, I hope you know you're in rough company here. I'm not a Christian and your description of the Divine is far too literal and specifically Biblical for me to embrace. Moreover, the First Baptist Church of Scottsburg, Indiana, BURNED TO THE GROUND on the day I was to have been baptized. A total conflagration, complete with the steeple falling into the naive. Great blasts of flame and billowing black smoke. I stood by and watched. It was a special baptism set aside specifically for me as all my peers had already been dunked on Easter Sunday. I'd had the measles. A few weeks later they did get me, though, as the Seventh Day Adventists weren't using their tank on a Sunday evening. But, still . . .

By the way, have you ever heard of Michael Travesser?

September 10th, 2001

The Appearing of Michael
"The Sign of the Son of Man"
(Matthew 24:30)

The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men [not knowing where they are going], because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Zephaniah 1:14-16.

I told you I would come again, and I have come again. Now let the nations mourn, for their kingdoms will be ground to powder. I will break in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver and gold. They will become like the chaff of the summer threshing floors and the wind will carry them all away. No place will be found for them anymore. I will become a great mountain and fill the whole earth with my light. It shall burn as an oven. My Father has said it and it is coming to pass as He has spoken. The earth may think it can kill me. Oh, foolish men, you cannot kill me as you do your other enemies. If my Father gave my body over to you, you may kill it, but I will inhabit a hundred more. If men kill them, I will inhabit ten thousand more. You cannot kill a Spirit you foolish (time wasters, meddlers, and deceivers) ones.

The Spirit has come and it has entered into the earth. You have gone far enough, and now I will show you who it is that rules in the heavens. You have built your Babylonish tower, but I will make the top to break off and its foundations to sink into the mire. You will see the stability of the sand you have built on. You will try everything to save it but it will not be saved. Your merchants will wail, for no one will buy their merchandise anymore. The judgment is set and my people shall take away this new dominion that has spoiled the world. I will consume it and destroy it until there is not a coal to warm at. The kingdom has been given to the saints of the Most High and I am here to tell you that.

My kingdom is the true dominion and all nations shall serve me. My kingdom shall not be destroyed for it is everlasting life. It is my own everlasting life. Let the wicked now call for their mountains and rocks to cover them. The sign of the Son of man is come. Let the nations grieve, for no man will buy their merchandise anymore. No one will accept their lying reports. Michael Travesser

Fulfilled
Fulfilled September 11, 2001 when the World Trade Center was destroyed, its top broken off, and its foundations sank into the dust. Nothing of it remained except ashes. There was much weeping and wailing, and many souls tried to save it, but it could not be saved. In no way could this event be blamed on the whims of nature. It was without question permitted by the powers who rule in the heavens. Some souls have thought this event to be "an inside job," or pulled off by the Israeli Mossad, or designed by the managers of the New World Order. Even this would fulfill the words of the Most High God, for God gives men over to the evil kingdoms, whoever they are, when they have loved sin and rejected Him. Now mankind is subjected to the evils that it thought to escape, because mankind has turned its heart to wickedness. The destruction of the Twin Towers, was not stopped by God, so that He could show the future doom of the dark side, and its ultimate collapse.

The second fulfillment is revealed in the words: "No one will accept their lying reports." This is fulfilled in the present knowledge that the people are not getting the true account of things as presented by the real world powers who hide in the shadows. Their lies are exposed on every hand, but no one knows just who to blame for them, except the hirelings in public office. It is something like blaming the delivery boy for what the corporation president ordered. Whenever the people hear of a report from government, the people wink, everyone knowing it isn't quite as it is presented. Some love the lie, and others hate it, but no one believes it just as it is spoken. Those who accept the word of the authorities, only do so because they hope it's true for the sake of their self-interests, but not because it is actually true. They choose to deny the reality that the present kingdom lives in a lie. Because they love evil, God has made them to accept a lie, as it is written in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12.

And then shall that Wicked One be exposed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his appearing: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved [from their situation]. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie [concerning his war on terror and his pseudo democracy]: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And the Lord said to me: "The prophets [those who say they speak for God, the ministers and evangelists of the churches] are prophesying lies in my name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds." Jeremiah 14:14.

And so it is. There are those who believe the lie of the Republicans and those who believe the lie of the Democrats. Others will believe the lie of the Israelis, but the end result is the same, and that is that they will end up judged and condemned. Some will trust the lie of the conservatives, and others will trust the liberals, while they all go to hell. Trust in government is a thing of past generations, but it will be no more. No one will believe their lying reports. No one will have confidence in the established order anymore. Because they have not loved the truth, they have been given phantoms to believe in. Demons are their lovers.

How can man not believe their lying reports, and yet believe in a lie? Such is the confusion of iniquity. It is the "American dream." The great ego of the American heart will be ground to powder. "The land of the free, and the home of the brave" is exposed as a deception. No man will believe it anymore. They will only have confusion.

[THE_DECIDER]

im not religous.....

i figure, if there is a god, he will forgive me for not buying into the curruption in todays church's.. holy wars.. ect, ect,

right now, their are small children dying in foreign lands...right now a mother and her children are being blown up by israeli's using american weapons...

here in america we get somewhat disconected from reality, so much death ,sorrow crimes against hummanity, muslim genocide right before our eyes, and the american people are foaming at the mouth, without a care in the world about the children that are being blown up by "the chosen people" or the "greatest nation on earth"


if their is a god, hes crying.

[painter]

<s>
if their is a god,  hes crying.

I agree. It has always been thus. My take on all this is kind of complicated, which is why I end up in trouble with just about everyone. MichaelMR is probably a bit pissed off that I've sort of hijacked his thread.

I'm not "religious" in the conventional sense of the word, either, and for very much the same reason you've pointed to. All in all, the religions have become as corrupt as national governments or any other number of institutions we could name. They are corrupted, of course, because they are made up of human beings and human beings, as we are, are flawed -- or, as I like to think, 'incomplete' -- creatures.

That said, I do confess having had experiences of something I call 'the Sacred' or 'the Divine'. Most people haven't had such experiences although I think more people have had them than we know and many who have haven't understood them very well. They aren't always 'big moments'; sometimes they are small quiet moments -- something very subtle rather than dramatic or awe-inspiring. I believe that in their origins, most religions were about attempting to bring us -- humankind -- closer to an understanding of these moments, both small and large. However, what happens -- and this appears to be 'lawful' (like gravity is 'lawful', a part and parcel of the laws that make up the universe) -- the human mind gets identified with what is said about these things and, thus, looses the fact that the words, rituals, icons, and so forth, that are meant to repesent or point toward 'the Sacred' get mistaken for the Sacred itself.

The Sacred is not out there in the world, it is in here, in us. So, more correctly put, the Sacred is not out there in the world unless it comes into the world through us.

Again, here we come into problems because if we have a fixed idea or a preconceived mental conception of what the Sacred is supposed to 'be like' or 'look like' or 'do' or 'not do' and so on, then we're in trouble. Because we look for that preconceived image rather than what is. The real function of religions, traditionally and in their origins, were to help us to step from one level of understanding to another. The Earthly level of understanding is one level but there are other levels of knowing and being possible for man. Perhaps not possible for every man and woman, but possible for some of us -- those who find these things interesting, who take them seriously, who have the willpower and the commonsense to look beyond the obvious to the more subtle qualities of life.

In other words, what is really being talked about is evolution; the ability to develop new senses, new ways of perceiving and understanding who, what and where we are as beings. We are mortal men and women; we are 'flawed' in as much as we have not as yet developed within ourselves the full measure of what is possible for us -- our full birthrights.

So far as I can tell, this is what the original Christian tradition taught: We are all Sons of the Living Father (to use a Christolic vernacular). As I understand it "Christ" (which was both a man and more than a man, a living Son of a God or as the Egyptians called them "Neters," which are principals issuing from the most fundamental all-beingness of the Cosmos -- words always fail at that level) was telling us that we are all Sons (and Daughters) of this "Father" (Creator, originator) but that we do not understand what this means, do not have a living, experiential relationship with this 'Father'. Instead we live through our ordinary senses having no awareness or knowledge of what 'God has prepared for them that love him'. To 'love' is to 'know' and to 'know' in this instance is 'to be one with'. So this all comes down to finding means by which one can rightfully claim one's relationship to this higher principal as a "living Son of God."

If you follow some of the links (in a previous post of mine in this thread) and take a look at Michael Travesser, you'll find that this is pretty much what he's saying, too. I'm not sure we're in total agreement, but pretty close. Unlike Travesser, I don't claim to be a "living Son of God." (Travesser perceives himself to be the living embodiment of the same Spiritual energy that embodied Jesus Christ -- which he says is actually the Spiritual being refereed to as the archangel Michael.) However, I think I do have some idea what being a "living Son of God" means; I do take that seriously as not either megalomania or some other form of insanity and I think I know some things that Travessesr (the man, not the Spirit that dwells in him) doesn't know.

This is why I speak of exotericism and esotericism. All the great spiritual teachings of the world have an outer, exoteric and an 'inner' esoteric side to them. The exoteric side is the side everyone knows about, everyone gets all identified with and argues about whose God is God; the exoteric side is the side that the agnostics don't understand and the atheists don't believe in; it is the side of words and images and icons which are taken by the literal mind to be the literal truth; it is the outer, worldly, side of religion and, therefore, is a reflection of the outer, worldly side of man. It is here that all the corruption sets in and it has the same spiritual limitations and 'fate' as does worldly 'man'. Dust to dust and all that.

Esotericism is different. No one really knows what it is -- or, rather, very few do and those who do can't say because to really understand it means that ONE MUST CHANGE FROM THE INSIDE OUT. This is evolution. Those who have not changed, who have not grown inwardly, can not understand the esoteric side of things, they make no sense to them. Here is the Apostle Paul speaking about this in the second chapter of his first letter to the Corinthians, KJV:

And I brethren, when I came to you, came
not with excellency of speech or of wisdom,
declaring unto you the testimony of God.

For I determined not to know any thing
among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And I was with you in weakness, and in fear,
and in much trembling.

And my speech and my preaching was not
with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in
demonstrations of the Spirit and of power:

That your faith should not stand in the
wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that
are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor
of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a
mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God
ordained before the world unto our glory.

But it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear
heard, neither have entered into the heart of
man, the things which God hath prepared for
them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his
Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,
yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man,
save the spirit of man which is in him? even
so the things of God knoweth no man, but the
Spirit of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the
words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which
the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual
things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things
of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet
he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord,
that he may instruct him? But we have
the mind of Christ.

Some of you who have been around me for awhile will recognize that I've quoted this passage from the Bible before. There are a lot of very important things in the Bible, problem is we've all been brainwashed to read them one way when their true meaning may lie in a completely different reading. I don't want to argue about such things with people at all. Everyone is free to read whatever they want into whatever tea leaves they want to pear into. I'm not going to engage in long-winded or argumentative debates over various interpretations of Biblical (or other religious) texts. I can only tell you what it means to me, what I see, and either that has some value for you or it doesn't. If not, fine. If so, all the better.

I've said before on this and other 9/11 forums that I believe this is much bigger than we know. By 'this' I mean the whole of life -- who we are, what we are, why we're here -- what all this means. We speak of "waking up" of coming to understand "the Truth" -- but as I see it, there are far greater dimensions to this "waking up" and coming to see "the Truth" than merely grasping the fact that, all in all, 9/11 was an act of deception perpetrated by an oligarchical elite (the princes of this world, that come to nought). That is TRUE, that is what HAPPENED, but the significance of this has far more than merely political or economic ramifications. YES, it DOES have those ramifications, but there is also a spiritual dimension to all this because there is a real, spiritual dimension to human existence. And it is, in large measure, because our own spiritual consciousness is so fouled up that the world that made 9/11 possible came into existence. IOW, you can't BLAME all this only on THEM: the relationship between those who have deceived us and those of us who have been deceived is far more damning than that of the guilty and the innocent. This is why great teachers like Michael Travesser and Jesus Christ, for that matter, are so reviled by the masses of people: They invariably point out that WE are as guilty as those who make the plans and pay the devil (the devel = themselves, their own ego, their earthly lusts and desires which are, at worst, only extensions of our own spiritual ignorance and irresponsibility); they invariably point out that the true poverty of humankind is a poverty of the spirit and of the sacred imagination; they point out that we are as much a part of the ills of this world as are they; the princes of this world, that come to nought. The world needn't be this way, true enough, but it is, and it is because, through eons and ages, we ordinary men and women remain as we are rather than evolving individually and collectively to accept our full responsibility as Sons and Daughters of the Living God -- which is essentially not something long ago or far away but right here, right now. God is closer to you than your jugular vein.

But it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear
heard, neither have entered into the heart of
man, the things which God hath prepared for
them that love him.

[tocarm]

Dear Guinan,

The Lord "condensed" my 23 page letter to "YOUR" US Government to about 1/2 of a sheet about 5 months later on February 13 & February 6, 1994. Read it for yourself:

http://www.ourlovingmother.org/Messages_Mo...vingMother.aspx

I suppose you can call up Chertoff @ Homeland Security and tell him and all the rest of his criminal cronies in Washington, D.C. to send a CIA 'hit man' and take out His Divine Majesty...or many "arrest" Him...put Him on "trial"...have it broadcast over CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, etc.

I'm sure 250 million Americans would simply LOVE seeing God Himself 'dispatched'.

- tocarm

[Guinan]

Dear Guinan,

The Lord "condensed" my 23 page letter to "YOUR" US Government to about 1/2 of a sheet about 5 months later on February 13 & February 6, 1994. Read it for yourself:

http://www.ourlovingmother.org/Messages_Mo...vingMother.aspx

I suppose you can call up Chertoff @ Homeland Security and tell him and all the rest of his criminal cronies in Washington, D.C. to send a CIA 'hit man' and take out His Divine Majesty...or many "arrest" Him...put Him on "trial"...have it broadcast over CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, etc.

I'm sure 250 million Americans would simply LOVE seeing God Himself 'dispatched'.

- tocarm

Dear Tocarm,

Ooops... I'm afraid there is a slight misunderstanding here. The US-government is not my govenment. I am Dutch and as such resided on the 'Garbage Heap of Nations' long before the US did, therefore I did not take kindly to that denomination.

As for the 2nd and 3rd paragraph of your post, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by it. Whoever said anything about putting God on trial or worse? Not me... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Guinan

[tocarm]

Dear Guinan,

I'll have to ask for your "forgiveness" in making the assumption that you were a US citizen living here in these United States of America. After all "9-11" is an American crime vs. the nations of the world...why "9-11" is SO American that it ranks right up there with 'Mom', 'Hot Dogs' and 'Apple'.

FYI, Chertoff is the 'czar' of our subtle national police state...kinda like what the Bolsheviks did with Russia and the Russian peoples back beginning around 1917. How many times do we have to watch this same 'Popeye & Bluto' geo-political cartoon's script?

As for being DUTCH...well then...allow me to quote to you a world famous 18th century Danish theologian of the DUTCH Reformed Church so as to put things into their proper 'religious' prespective for you considering the state of our contemporary world. In referring to his peers, his 'reformers' and their manifold 'reformed' churches as a result of the Protestant Reformation:

"They have turned Christianity into too much of a CONSOLATION and have forgotten it places A DEMAND upon people."

Or, as Christ Jesus Himself put it:

"Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord' AND NOT DO WHAT I SAY???"

That's a question every last living soul currently walking up the surface of this planet earth of His has to be asking him/her/themselves.

- tocarm

[tocarm]

Dear Painter,

I really don't want to go 'buzzing off' on whatever anybody else has said, is saying or might be inclined to say. My intention was/is simply to relay to you what was/is mine to relay and to expound on/answer some of the various questions you posed to me regarding human spirituality.

But let me clarify some issues you've brought up regarding your own religious experiences and upbringing.

First, I'm not a Baptist nor am I a Seventh Day Adventist. I'm a Catholic Christian of the Roman Rite. Baptists are Baptists and Seventh Day Adventists are Seventh Day Adventists AREN'T Catholic 'cause they don't want to be Catholics. And I don't want to be a Baptist nor a Seventh Day Adventists precisely on account they do not hold to, teach, profess the Apostolic Faith transmitted/taught by the Lord's Own Apostles. They both have erroneous 'theology' and they both have erroneous 'biblical exegesis'. Both 'churches' teach things diametrically opposed to what is clearly taught and presented in the Catholic Church's Own Canon of Sacred Christian Scripture which everyone refers to in 'slang' manner as 'The Bible'.

So if you got a 'problem' with either the Baptists or 7th Day Adventists, DON'T expect me to be coming to their 'rescue' - don't expect me to 'defend' them and if your problem with either the Baptists or 7th Dayers really, really vexes you spiritually, intellectually, emotionally - then you really ought to 'go have it out' with both of them and leave me the heck out of it - this personal squabble 'tween you and they.

As CHRIST Himself taught His Apostles and His disciples:

"If your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with him alone, between your two selves. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother."
- The Gospel according to St. Matthew - Matthew 18:15 -

Let me have some time to "regroup" my thoughts - kinda hard to keep on track with a discussion on HUBRIS vs. HUMILITY when every manner of protest, diversion and distraction is thrown in your path.

- tocarm

[tocarm]

Dear Painter,

Here we go...about the spiritual disposition of HUBRIS vs. HUMILITY.

HUBRIS (or 'Pride') is nothing but the inner (unseen, hence 'spiritual') disposition of a spiritual being desirious of being something OTHER that what he/she is.

HUMILITY is but the inner unseen, spiritual disposition of a spiritual being simply accepting, being and 'behaving' according to his/her 'given' nature.

HUBRIS and HUMILITY well up within individuals via the agency of their spiritual faculty of 'scient-ness', or if you prefer, their faculty of awareness, of being an 'aware/conscious/scient' individual.

The most elegantly HUMBLE spiritual being within these vast expanse of God's creation - either 'seen' or 'unseen' - is GOD HIMSELF! God is Aware that He Is God and does not attempt to adopt an 'identity' or 'behave' any other way than that of being Himelf God and Himself Divine.

If I can attempt to explain this in a "mere mortal man's" way - God ACCEPTS that He Is God and by His Own Acceptance of His Own Divinity and Being God - He ENJOYS His Divine Nature, His Divine Character, His Divine Life.

Now allow me to quickly CONTRAST the inner spiritual dispostion of HUBRIS, or spiritual PRIDE - which is but nothing but an attempt by any/all spiritual beings to BE OTHER than what he/she/they really and truly are.

If HUBRIS/PRIDE is an attempt to be "something OTHER than what one truly is", and we always seem to consider hubris/pride in one's trying to be a something GREATER than what one truly is - let us consider for a brief moment HUBRIS or PRIDE as being something LESS than what one truly is in order to see the abject and utter spiritual STUPIDITY of adopting an inner spiritual disposition of hubris or pride.

Imagine a human being (man or woman...it doesn't matter) WANTING TO BE a tree. He/she digs a ditch, plants his/her feet into the ground, fills in the hole with dirt, stretches out his/her arms to the sides and then BOASTFULLY CALLS OUT to passersby - 'Look at me! I'm a tree! I'm now a tree! I have transcended and have risen above my human nature!'

Imagine a human being (man or woman...it doesn't matter) WANTING TO BE a rock. He/she curls up and lies absolutely still upon the ground, remains absolutely motionless and then BOASTFULLY CALLS OUT to passersby - 'Look at me! I'm a rock! I'm now a rock! I have transcended and have risen above my human nature!'

The passersby of the people attempting to "being something OTHER" that what he or she really and truly IS would rightly look at such people as NUT CASES deserving a call to the local Mental Care Hospital so that might receive the 'proper mental health care' so as to return their minds and the lives so as to live in REALITY!

For us HUMAN BEINGS, if we want/desire to truly be "created in the Image and Likeness of God" - we must ACCEPT these human, incarnate spiritual natures of ours, being created either male or female, accepting THOSE gender natures, ACCEPT that we are creatures/creations of a Creator God, ACCEPT that we all have a God Who created us and ACCEPT the meaning and purpose our Creator God has given us to LIVE as well as to LIVE OUT during the course of this/these lifetimes of ours.

When the entire human race does THAT then we, too, will be centered in our own spiritual disposition of HUMILITY that is Eternally Nature of God's Own Internal Divine Life - and the whole lot of us 6 billion human beings will THEN and only then be 'content'.

Regarding the 'Inner Life of God' as theologically defined in what is called "The Procession of the Divine Persons" @
http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc4_26.htm

- tocarm

[MichaelMR]

MichaelMR is probably a bit pissed off that I've sort of hijacked his thread.

Not at all man, carry on. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Things are getting a bit too religious for my taste though.

[painter]

MichaelMR is probably a bit pissed off that I've sort of hijacked his thread.

Not at all man, carry on. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Things are getting a bit too religious for my taste though.

LoL. Me too. Sort of. I mean, I can speak "religious" but it can get really creepy when people begin telling you that THEY know more about what you should be doing with your life than you do, especially when they were told this by their direct connection with some supreme being that can't be questioned, reasoned with or otherwise interrogated. You just have to take their word for it. They could be right but invariably their insistence in knowing how to run your life better than you do evinces an utter ignorance of basic human psychology. Want to keep mere mortals from eating 'fruit' that is beyond their capacity to digest? Put it in the midst of a garden, surround it with an angel wielding a flaming sword and tell them to not dare eat of it and VOILA!, guaranteed to go right for the stuff, beguiling serpents or no. It's hard wired, IMO.

[MichaelMR]

LoL. Me too. Sort of. I mean, I can speak "religious" but it can get really creepy when people begin telling you that THEY know more about what you should be doing with your life than you do, especially when they were told this by their direct connection with some supreme being that can't be questioned, reasoned with or otherwise interrogated. You just have to take their word for it. They could be right but invariably their insistence in knowing how to run your life better than you do evinces an utter ignorance of basic human psychology. Want to keep mere mortals from eating 'fruit' that is beyond their capacity to digest? Put it in the midst of a garden, surround it with an angel wielding a flaming sword and tell them to not dare eat of it and VOILA!, guaranteed to go right for the stuff, beguiling serpents or no. It's hard wired, IMO.

That was beautiful. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/worthy.gif)

Your morals and sense of justice shouldn’t come from the fear of the unknown. Richard Dawkins had some great input on this. People just need to live a path of no regrets while maintaining consideration of others and their surroundings. If we all could’ve lived like this, pointless actions that have been “justified” by religion and rather blind beliefs wouldn’t exist.