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Boeing Refuses to explain, Moved from LC

rob balsamo
post Oct 21 2006, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE
UnderTow  Posted: Aug 21 2006, 06:35 PM 


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I now have a contact in Boeing Techincal Documents. I should have very exact information about the raw FDR data.

For instance:

QUOTE 
The DFDAU also marks each frame with a sequential “frame counter” value.  For a 12 bit word, the frame counter can have 4096 states, so the frame counter value usually runs from 1 to 4096 (sometimes 0 to 4095).  A power interruption longer than 0.2 seconds will cause the DFDAU to reset the frame counter to reset. 

Thus, during each flight the DFDAU will start the frame counter fresh when power is applied.  The DFDR only starts recording when an engine starts, so the frame counter in the DFDR data will not start with 1. 

During flight, a frame counter discontinuity  shows that the DFDAU suffered a power interrupt that was longer than 0.2 seconds.



QUOTE
UnderTow  Posted: Aug 21 2006, 06:53 PM 


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HOLY CRAP MAN!!!

I tell you, the airline industry has thier nicks so damn tight. Like a frog's butt.
My contact just might've went sour on me. He asked me what I was doing.
Saying

QUOTE 
I have never before in several years had a request for such detailed technical information from outside the usual industry channels.



Well, I sent him a link to the .fdr file. 

/tension 

QUOTE
Cary Posted: Aug 21 2006, 07:39 PM 


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Yeah, they've probably BEEN warned about truth seekers. Closed mouthed to save their jobs is my guess. Outstanding that you even got hold of someone inside Boeing. 

QUOTE
UnderTow  Posted: Aug 21 2006, 08:00 PM 


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Let's hear it for honesty. I may be on to something.

Remember everyone, this Forum section is confidential. I may accidential post something propiertary, don't let it leave this section unless the specific go ahead is given.


QUOTE (Boeing)
I got your Email and let me push it a bit and see what I can do.  There are anumber of providers that can crack the FDR files.  These are an L-3 format that is compressed in a proprietary format.  You would need L-3's permission to use their software for this purpose.

Anyway, I will get you an answer as soon as I can.  I am alone for the next three weeks as my partner is on vacation, so things will be a bit hectic.

All I can promise is that I will get a strainght answer to you on what I can and cannot do to help, and I will not simply ignore your request.

Let's see how my schedule goes and when I can get to it.

Best Wishes from Seattle,

** *******
Boeing Service Engineering




Exciting... 

QUOTE
johndoeX Posted: Aug 21 2006, 10:01 PM 


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Ask him why the data stops at :44. Since the animation keeps going as stills for another few minutes...


QUOTE
UnderTow  Posted: Aug 25 2006, 06:16 PM 


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QUOTE 
I have sent your request for flight data frame definitions up the line
to get permission.  I don't know what the outcome will be.  As promised,
I will let you know how your request is proceeding.

The "dummies" book gives you some general info on how these things work,
so at least you aren't starting from zero.

Let's see what happens.  Our country was built by people with passion,
and still is. 

Keep 'em flying

Al
Boeing Service Engineering



crap...
I CAN NOT F'ING WAIT ANYMORE 


QUOTE
UnderTow Posted: Sep 8 2006, 06:04 PM 


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I talked again with my friend at Boeing.
I asked him about the sensitivity of FDR's and thier data. I used the word secret which probably wasn't correct, but anyway.
I really like this guy.

My question was basically

QUOTE (UnderTow)
What is so secret about the parameter layout of an aircraft FDR which makes it so hard to get?

Just like D226A101-3, I don't understand why this simple information is held so tightly. Can you explain it?



His reply:

QUOTE (Boeing Engineer)
There is nothing secret about the data frame information.  However, the flight data community is pretty small, and nobody wants to anger some particularly large organizations.

Both American Airlines and ALPA (the Pilots' Union) consider the flight data to be sensitive.  If I were to process your data (which would take no more than 10 minutes), myself and Boeing could alienate these organizations.  Like a marriage, Boeing's relationship with the operators takes years to build, and can be destroyed in minutes with a careless action.  Safety is a group effort between Boeing, the operators, the FAA, and on infrequent and tragic circumstances, the NTSB.  Trust is a prerequisite for that effort.

We get flight data from operators every day to assist in the analysis of in service incidents.  For example, how hard did an airplane hit the runway, and does the operator have to perform a hard landing inspection? Was that roll upset caused by the autopilot or by a gust?  The operators send us the data freely because Boeing has never (I repeat NEVER) used their data for any reason other than the original incident analysis, without getting their specific authorization in writing.

If that is how sensitive they are about incidents where nobody got hurt, you can imagine how sensitive the operators and the NTSB are about the data for an accident.  Accident data released to the public before it has been carefully analyzed would lead to a lot of confusing and emotional speculation.  You would have "trial by media" where the only driving purpose is to sell papers, air time or DVDs, technical excellence be damned.

When was the last time you saw a newspaper article discussing the fact that the US operators flew for an entire year without a single fatality? Such an inspiring achievement takes the dedicated efforts of thousands of people, myself being one.  You don't see that article, because it doesn't sell papers.

We won't even talk about our good relationship with the NTSB and the risks to Boeing of processing data for you that the NTSB would not.

So, requests such as yours quickly go high up in an organization because the implications for our working relationships with operators and the government are so huge.  I am just a lowly engineer, and I follow the policy of Boeing's management.  In this case, I agree that it is a good thing to guard the data carefully.

I have sent your request for data frame definitions up the line for consideration by Boeing management.  We will see what they say. 

....

Best Wishes.  I can't promise what Boeing management will say.  I will promise to be square with you.
**** ******* Boeing Service Engineering





This post has been edited by UnderTow on Sep 8 2006, 06:05 PM 
   


QUOTE
UnderTow Posted: Sep 8 2006, 07:27 PM 


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I think I'm going to cry.....................................


QUOTE 
Chris:

Boeing management has decided not to support your request for help in
processing the flight data you received from the NTSB under the Freedom
of Information Act.

Thanks for an interesting exchange of conversation, good luck in your
endeavour, and best wishes from Seattle.

Al Withers
Boeing Service Engineering


QUOTE
free_me Posted: Sep 8 2006, 08:02 PM 


Unregistered









 

That's what I call a lot of hot air.


QUOTE 
So, requests such as yours quickly go high up in an organization because the implications for our working relationships with operators and the government are so huge.  I am just a lowly engineer, and I follow the policy of Boeing's management.  In this case, I agree that it is a good thing to guard the data carefully.




Don't let anyone know the truth because it might damage a relationship, I guess is the summary. Obviously, they don't want their name in any way associated with any investigation, of any kind. It's a good thing. 

QUOTE
Cary Posted: Sep 8 2006, 11:43 PM 


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Good try UnderTow. At least you let Boeing know the info is out there. The cover up continues.

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UnderTow  Posted: Sep 9 2006, 03:57 AM 


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Well, wait until the word really gets out.
I just printed mailing labels for every Governor in the United States.
Congress (anti-war or pro-truth) challengers, as well as the companies that deal with FDR analyis will recieve a package as well.
In addition to that. I'll be sending a CD and letter to NTSB counterparts in other countries, such as the AAIB in the UK.

God damn mother f*cking f*ck it all to hell. SOMEONE IS GOING TO READ THIS FILE ...

With every day, I have less hope that Avionica will make the right decision.


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johndoeX Posted: Sep 9 2006, 04:52 AM 


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QUOTE (UnderTow @ Sep 8 2006, 02:04 PM)
I talked again with my friend at Boeing.
I asked him about the sensitivity of FDR's and thier data. I used the word secret which probably wasn't correct, but anyway.
I really like this guy.

My question was basically

QUOTE (UnderTow)
What is so secret about the parameter layout of an aircraft FDR which makes it so hard to get?

Just like D226A101-3, I don't understand why this simple information is held so tightly. Can you explain it?



His reply:

QUOTE (Boeing Engineer)
There is nothing secret about the data frame information.  However, the flight data community is pretty small, and nobody wants to anger some particularly large organizations.

Both American Airlines and ALPA (the Pilots' Union) consider the flight data to be sensitive.  If I were to process your data (which would take no more than 10 minutes), myself and Boeing could alienate these organizations.  Like a marriage, Boeing's relationship with the operators takes years to build, and can be destroyed in minutes with a careless action.  Safety is a group effort between Boeing, the operators, the FAA, and on infrequent and tragic circumstances, the NTSB.  Trust is a prerequisite for that effort.

We get flight data from operators every day to assist in the analysis of in service incidents.  For example, how hard did an airplane hit the runway, and does the operator have to perform a hard landing inspection? Was that roll upset caused by the autopilot or by a gust?  The operators send us the data freely because Boeing has never (I repeat NEVER) used their data for any reason other than the original incident analysis, without getting their specific authorization in writing.

If that is how sensitive they are about incidents where nobody got hurt, you can imagine how sensitive the operators and the NTSB are about the data for an accident.  Accident data released to the public before it has been carefully analyzed would lead to a lot of confusing and emotional speculation.  You would have "trial by media" where the only driving purpose is to sell papers, air time or DVDs, technical excellence be damned.

When was the last time you saw a newspaper article discussing the fact that the US operators flew for an entire year without a single fatality? Such an inspiring achievement takes the dedicated efforts of thousands of people, myself being one.  You don't see that article, because it doesn't sell papers.

We won't even talk about our good relationship with the NTSB and the risks to Boeing of processing data for you that the NTSB would not.

So, requests such as yours quickly go high up in an organization because the implications for our working relationships with operators and the government are so huge.  I am just a lowly engineer, and I follow the policy of Boeing's management.  In this case, I agree that it is a good thing to guard the data carefully.

I have sent your request for data frame definitions up the line for consideration by Boeing management.  We will see what they say. 

....

Best Wishes.  I can't promise what Boeing management will say.  I will promise to be square with you.
**** ******* Boeing Service Engineering



 


Welcome to fascist America. Please post this in the public Pentagon forum. (edit: nevermind... i will move it myself)

This man should be an American first before bow-ing at the knees of his Boeing superiors. 

QUOTE
johndoeX Posted: Sep 9 2006, 04:53 AM 


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I will be moving this thread to the pentagon forum to show how corporate America (read: fascism) does not want to help Americans get to the truth. 

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johndoeX Posted: Sep 9 2006, 05:01 AM 


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(after i moved to pentagon public forum)

Who is outraged? What are they trying to hide? Why do they not want to explain the current data we hold? Why are we hitting brick walls?

Are corporate relationships more important than Americans learning the truth? 

QUOTE
KADrummer6 Posted: Sep 9 2006, 05:51 AM 


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QUOTE (johndoeX @ Sep 9 2006, 01:01 AM)
(after i moved to pentagon public forum)

Who is outraged? What are they trying to hide? Why do they not want to explain the current data we hold? Why are we hitting brick walls?

Are corporate relationships more important than Americans learning the truth? 


JDX,

It's amazing what people are willing to do just for money. Those that say "people don't stoop to the lowest they can go for money" Obviously have never seen Fear Factor...and that's just average joe's wanting a decent amount of money.

I never was a CT'er, basically pretty much oblivious to 9/11, but it still amazes me to this day about the Pentagon. It fascinates me so much b/c there IS video of whatever happened that day, yet 5 years later it is still hidden from America. I keep asking the same question: If the attack was so cut-and-dry, why take the PHYSICAL cameras away to prevent any reminants of the attack? And the massive amounts of video and pictures?

I may be only 24, but I'm old enough to know BS when I hear it. Judging by the fact Ken Lay ends up dead and half my "level-headed" co-workers wouldn't doubt that he was potentially murdered (can't have an incarcerated whistle blower hanging around) and the death of senator Paul Wellstone that was deemed weird. Oh, can't forget the anthrax letters sent to 2 members of congress who were getting a big lippy about 9/11.

My belief is boeing is most likely worried about "consequences". I wouldn't doubt if FBI agents or gov't officials were merely scaring people to keep them quiet. Not threaten their lives, but just enough to keep their ideas to themselves.

I've noticed lately gov't officials are coming out of the woodwork to dispell the conspiracies. They're linking them to terrorism, trying to oust credible scholars (recently Steven Jones), NIST is making it priority to debunk them, etc. etc.

My thought is either they're doing it b/c it's the 5th anniversary to stop the bad press, or we're getting our hands on more and more evidence that they know exposes the truth. People usually don't take measures like this unless they start to hit a panic. My guess is things like the FDR video, more photos of the WTC rubble, conflicting eyewitness reports, questions about the ISI, etc. are exposing a real possibility to the uninformed/uninterested that something is going on.

Long story short; intimidation and ruthless tactics are probably being taken out in a suttle way to keep the lies and falsified evidence from coming to light.

...I mean, JDX, if what you say about the FDR is 100% true, then at the very least that nullifies part of the official report that the gov't set in stone for themselves. Which means more real & traceable evidence that shows 9/11 was an inside job. 
   


QUOTE
Searcher Posted: Sep 9 2006, 06:05 AM 


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That was a fascinating exchange.

On the one hand, genuine citizens trying to get to the bottom of a mass murder.

On the other, people who work in a specialised niche industry, with a very strong safety and quality culture and pre-existing set of long term historical relationships that have helped save lives.

I was amazed it got as far as it did.

Now anyone else in the Western Europe FDR industry will probably give a variation on this response. So you might have to go further afield. Maybe Venezuela or Malaysia or Russia?? If it is a job that would take ten minutes to do, maybe you need to find a detailed technical description of what needs to happen and let someone else do it who doesnt have the same relationships to contend with.


Cheers

Searcher




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johndoeX Posted: Sep 9 2006, 06:12 AM 


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QUOTE (KADrummer6 @ Sep 9 2006, 01:51 AM)


...I mean, JDX, if what you say about the FDR is 100% true, then at the very least that nullifies part of the official report that the gov't set in stone for themselves. Which means more real & traceable evidence that shows 9/11 was an inside job. 


Please do not mistake the facts. (not that i am saying you are...)

What i offer is facts on how the FDR is now. There is no dispute that the FDR (csv and animation files) are too high to hit the light poles. You will notice everyone who disputes it comes up with "possibilities" of potential errors.. and thats fine.

However, no one has offered to give facts on what those errors are exactly. Its all theory coming from those trying to explain away our facts.. (can someone say irony?  ). The NTSB/FBI refuses to comment (as noted in the phone calls.. thanks shure!) and now Boeing experts refuse to decode additional data that could explain and/or confirm our current sources... due to "corporate relationships". One would think if the additional data confirmed the official story... they would be jumping over backwards to present it.... right?... nope...

Well.. i can understand if data is misunderstood and goes public. That is all the more reason to give a thorough explaination. They refuse... so far.

We're still working on it.. have faith.

Next steps are full media bombardment so they cannot ignore it. The Jack Blood interview was just the tiny tip of the iceberg.

What boggles my mind is that "some people" refuse to acknowledge this stuff and proceed with pictures of mechanical damage presentations in order to confirm the official theory. Ignoring the facts provided by our own govt agencies such as the NTSB.

We have data.. from a govt agency. It conflicts with the govt story. Some choose to ignore it (or ridicule it.. or make up excuses for it). others are trying to get answers while hitting brick walls. 
   


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Russell Pickering Posted: Sep 14 2006, 04:12 AM 


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This is my final response today from flightscape.

Hello Russell,

We took a look at the data. Although we have a LFL file, it doesn’t seem correct, we would have then to check each one of the parameters and validate them, basically creating a new one data frame description file. This (the same work when an airline purchases our system – so financially not viable for smaller projects due to the time required to create a new configuration), and the fact that NTSB and American Airlines are our customers, we decided it is not of our best interest to move forward on with this project. I hope you understand, currently our engineers have a lot of work to do on configurations for our customers. Looking at data from an accident is something that should be reserved and validated for the accident investigation authority only.

I am sorry to give you these “bad” news. Hope we can work together in the future,

Best regards,

Bruno Ochin
Technical Sales

Web www.flightscape.com 

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Red7 Posted: Sep 14 2006, 04:54 AM 


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Boeing wont want to loose out on any future contracts, they wont say a word. 




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Russell Pickering Posted: Sep 14 2006, 01:06 PM 


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I just missed a call from him that I had requested.

He left a message that it was an "upper management" decision and apologized again.
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RaechelParker
post Nov 25 2009, 02:04 PM
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This is exactly what i was looking for. thank you for the informative post and keep up the good work!
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